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News Analysis Platform How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5

yurinka

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I cant remember where it was but it was RAD dev that discussed the throughput for PS5 with oodle kracken, Basically it was:

5.5GB raw
10.85GB compress
21.99GB. For textures. (PS5 22GB limit)

If I remember correctly.

Edit.
Yes, we already talked about this topic weeks ago. Neogaf > Internet > Neogaf. There's a gaf thread from July talking about the same topic than the OP:
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/krak...what-ps5-hardware-will-be-capable-of.1558927/

Cerny wasn't on drugs when he mentioned PS5 was able to load stuff from the SSD at up to 22GB/s if particularly well compressed, or when mentinoning 0.5s loading times for when streaming in-game stuff that is behind you. There's a real world benchmark backing his claims.
 
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Confirmation that the 8-9 GB/s was under representing/a conservative estimate without using Oodle Texture :):


More about what Oodle Texture let’s them achieve (using an unspecified recent game as practical example... and make peak equivalent compressed bandwidth 17+ GB/s):


BC7Prep can go on top of that to further increase compression ratios, but this additional step needs to be undone at runtime (CPU or optimised compute shaders on the GPU, code provided by RAD Game Tools in the Oodle Texture package).
17GB/s here is not peak. It's the expected average speed on textures using Kraken + oodle with those settings (there are no bottlenecks I/O on PS5 so those speeds are real and not theoretical).
 
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mitch1971

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I'm sure this is what Steve from warframe was talking about the other day. They have been using it to recompress their textures and have just released the first wave on pc to reduce the game size by 6gb. Over the next month or so it will be reduced even further to a total of 15gb reduction.
 
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Zoro7

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Doesn't matter, none of that is sustained speed and they're advertising peak speeds just like snake oil vendors of SSD's do.

You know the Firecuda 520? Arguably one of the best drives on the market at $250. Well its advertised speeds are up to 5,000/4,400 MB/s.

Guess what its sustained speeds are? PCI-E gen 3 @ 1.7 GB/s, PCI-E gen 4 @ 2.1 GB/s. Sony is bullshitting everyone with peaks and not mentioning a word of their sustained speeds.
Lol fucking hell. I will remind people of some your posts every time.
This man said Xbox live is free and series S doesn't exist. Thats the level people. Thick enough to ask Sony for a source of their PS5 news. Imbecile.
 

pawel86ck

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Doesn't matter, none of that is sustained speed and they're advertising peak speeds just like snake oil vendors of SSD's do.

You know the Firecuda 520? Arguably one of the best drives on the market at $250. Well its advertised speeds are up to 5,000/4,400 MB/s.

Guess what its sustained speeds are? PCI-E gen 3 @ 1.7 GB/s, PCI-E gen 4 @ 2.1 GB/s. Sony is bullshitting everyone with peaks and not mentioning a word of their sustained speeds.
Based on Cerny presentation I would assume he build SSD with at least 5GB/s sustainable (he said games need 5GB/s for what he wanted to accomplish) but the reality is Cerny want to sell his product, so people shouldn't blindly trust him (and it's the same with MS). The reality is, we indeed dont know how sustainable transfer on PS5 SSD will look like, we can only assume / guess. I hope it's around 5GB/s.
 

Eliciel

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it would be so great to really have these kind of things included in an extended tear down for PS5.
It would be the most clicked video of 2020.
 

Zathalus

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Doesn't matter, none of that is sustained speed and they're advertising peak speeds just like snake oil vendors of SSD's do.

You know the Firecuda 520? Arguably one of the best drives on the market at $250. Well its advertised speeds are up to 5,000/4,400 MB/s.

Guess what its sustained speeds are? PCI-E gen 3 @ 1.7 GB/s, PCI-E gen 4 @ 2.1 GB/s. Sony is bullshitting everyone with peaks and not mentioning a word of their sustained speeds.
That is because of bottlenecks with the current PC software stack, and nothing to do with the hardware itself.


Sony and Microsoft have both taken measures to address this very issue in the coming generation of consoles. Both have massive API changes, dedicated I/O processing as well as dedicated decompression units. It's just that Sony went with a higher performing base SSD then Microsoft and hence gets better speeds.

With Directstorage and RTX I/O (and the AMD equivalent), you will eventually see the same kind of speeds on the PC side. Only the PC does not have custom processors to achieve this so the work will likely get done on additional CPU cores or the GPU itself.
 
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Uncharted bunghole
Based on Cerny presentation I would assume he build SSD with at least 5GB/s sustainable (he said games need 5GB/s for what he wanted to accomplish) but the reality is Cerny want to sell his product, so people shouldn't blindly trust him (and it's the same with MS). The reality is, we indeed dont know how sustainable transfer on PS5 SSD will look like, we can only assume / guess. I hope it's around 5GB/s.

Both could definitely hit below the advertised figures. But so far the most impressive I/O seems to be the one that Cerny designed based off the footage that we've seen.

It could always be different though. I guess we will have to let the games do the talking.


 
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Panajev2001a

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Based on Cerny presentation I would assume he build SSD with at least 5GB/s sustainable (he said games need 5GB/s for what he wanted to accomplish) but the reality is Cerny want to sell his product, so people shouldn't blindly trust him (and it's the same with MS). The reality is, we indeed dont know how sustainable transfer on PS5 SSD will look like, we can only assume / guess. I hope it's around 5GB/s.

Everytime we read third party data it looks like Cerny rounded things down instead of upwards and slightly undersold rather than overselling anything they designed by say choosing to omit a baseline measurement to describe a performance multiplier so to speak:
  • Look at Tempest Engine performance: 64 FP ops/clock at GPU clocks and he went for about as powerful as all the Jaguar cores in PS4 (100 GFLOPS or so while we are talking about 30+ GFLOPS more if we look at the real numbers).
  • Look at the SDD equivalent compressed bandwidth: they knew they signed up with Oodle Texture yet they gave out the numbers with just Kraken compression rates while the number can hit almost 2x that.
I think Cerny over the years earned the benefit of the doubt. He does not have a bad reputation in the developers community either and I guess it is not an accident :).
 

Azurro

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Based on Cerny presentation I would assume he build SSD with at least 5GB/s sustainable (he said games need 5GB/s for what he wanted to accomplish) but the reality is Cerny want to sell his product, so people shouldn't blindly trust him (and it's the same with MS). The reality is, we indeed dont know how sustainable transfer on PS5 SSD will look like, we can only assume / guess. I hope it's around 5GB/s.

First, let's try to put this in perspective. The GDC talk talking about the PS5 was exactly that, a GDC talk, it wasn't a marketing exercise. Honestly, a marketer would have seen that PS5 presentation and had his/her heart stopped at how awful it was for a general audience, yet it was full of technical information. Of course he's going to be proud of his project, but this weird equivalence between flat out salesmen from MS side and Cerny I don't know from where it came from.

I mean, the guy is a terrible marketer, he's an engineer and rarely does he get involved in hyperbolic statements like MS freely and regularly does.
 

Panajev2001a

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First, let's try to put this in perspective. The GDC talk talking about the PS5 was exactly that, a GDC talk, it wasn't a marketing exercise. Honestly, a marketer would have seen that PS5 presentation and had his/her heart stopped at how awful it was for a general audience, yet it was full of technical information. Of course he's going to be proud of his project, but this weird equivalence between flat out salesmen from MS side and Cerny I don't know from where it came from.

I mean, the guy is a terrible marketer, he's an engineer and rarely does he get involved in hyperbolic statements like MS freely and regularly does.

Hehe, yes he is not the marketing hype type, but that presentation was delivered really really well considering its length and pacing o_O.
 
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Azurro

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Hehe, yes he is not the marketing hype type, but that presentation was delivered really really well considering its length and pacing o_O.

Oh I agree, he's very, very good at delivering technical information, but I mean, this wasn't a presentation meant to show the console in a "Powerzz!! This thing eats monsters for breakfast!!!" light for a general audience (which is what a marketer would do), but rather measured and objective on what the machine can do, while spending 20 minutes talking about audio and HRTFs. :)
 
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Oh I agree, he's very, very good at delivering technical information, but I mean, this wasn't a presentation meant to show the console in a "Powerzz!! This thing eats monsters for breakfast!!!" light for a general audience (which is what a marketer would do), but rather measured and objective on what the machine can do, while spending 20 minutes talking about audio and HRTFs. :)

Can you imagine if they used Cerny for marketing the PS5 to your average game?

After the casuals watch the ad (assuming they stay awake that is) this will be their reaction.



Cerny is great but his presentations are not for your average gamer.
 
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pawel86ck

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Both could definitely hit below the advertised figures. But so far the most impressive I/O seems to be the one that Cerny designed based off the footage that we've seen.

It could always be different though. I guess we will have to let the games do the talking.


Indeed, so far PS5 games makes look XSX really bad. Demons Souls and maybe ratchet and clank looks like true next gen games too me.
 

GymWolf

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Can someone explain to me in laymen terms what a great decompression system does for games?

like using 8k texture or assets with a fraction of the cost in performance? squeezing more data from a blueray disc? faster loading for textures?
 
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Allandor

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I cant remember where it was but it was RAD dev that discussed the throughput for PS5 with oodle kracken, Basically it was:

5.5GB raw
10.85GB compress
21.99GB. For textures. (PS5 22GB limit)

If I remember correctly.

Edit.
No, you're not. Texture-compression will normally not decompress (so it has nothing to do with the 22GB cap of PS5). Normally it is a format with quality loss but textures will remain in memory like "uncompressed" (without lossless compression) on the disc.

This article is FUD. It is nothing new. Oddle texture also work on PS4/xb1/PS3/xb360 nothing really revolutionary here.
But if we now count texture compression to the bandwidth ... well than we must recalculate everything.

Oodle textures will be utilized in Warframe
Yes, the greyish texture for Warframe can be compressed relative lossless. I really don't know why they haven't used a good compression-format before. Oddle texture is nothing new.
 
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pawel86ck

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Can someone explain to me in laymen terms what a great decompression system does for games?

like using 8k texture or assets with a fraction of the cost in performance? squeezing more data from a blueray disc? faster loading for textures?
In simple terms I doubt it will make any difference besides a little bit faster loading times, because no developer will only use CGI quality assets when games are expected to be played on very small SSD. UE5 tech demo was only tech demo (and still industry professionals estime it was over 100GB).
 
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Can someone explain to me in laymen terms what a great decompression system does for games?

like using 8k texture or assets with a fraction of the cost in performance? squeezing more data from a blueray disc? faster loading for textures?
Yes to questions two and three. Bigger textures still need powerful hardware to display. If the GPU can keep up, question one also positive.
 
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Panajev2001a

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In simple terms I doubt it will make any difference besides a little bit faster loading times, because no developer will only use CGI quality assets when games are expected to be played on very small SSD. UE5 tech demo was only tech demo (and still industry professionals estime it was over 100GB).

Mate in a thread where the Warframe dev just reduced the game size by 15 GB thanks in great part to moving to Oodle Texture ;)?

In essence GymWolf GymWolf , higher texture variety and quality with less pop-in and smaller games (than they would be without... so yes, if assets improve in quality at the same rate as the compression ratio there is not a huge reduction in game sizes).
 

pawel86ck

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Mate in a thread where the Warframe dev just reduced the game size by 15 GB thanks in great part to moving to Oodle Texture ;)?

In essence GymWolf GymWolf , higher texture variety and quality with less pop-in and smaller games (than they would be without... so yes, if assets improve in quality at the same rate as the compression ratio there is not a huge reduction in game sizes).
That's tiny size reduction considering developers need many Terabytes to store their original assets.


Developers already are saying small storage space will be a problem on next gen consoles.
 

Zathalus

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Oh good, I was worried there for a minute.... so they still don't have any monayyy!?
No, they have over 33 billion dollars cash reserves if they need to use it. Likely going to dip a bit in the next year, as the PS5 is sold at a loss. Same goes for Microsoft though.
 
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Bryank75

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Bryank75

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No, they have over 33 billion dollars cash reserves if they need to use it. Likely going to dip a bit in the next year, as the PS5 is sold at a loss. Same goes for Microsoft though.
Doesn't work like that... it would go through the income statement / P&L and then if they had a loss it would be brought down to company level and profits from other businesses might cancel it out or if the entire company had a loss, they could use that to claim a tax write off the next year. But it's unlikely the losses will exceed G&NS income.

You are correct about cash on hand though...but that was by last quarterly report. They probably have more money now.
 
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Panajev2001a

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That's tiny size reduction considering developers need many Terabytes to store their original assets.


Developers already are saying small storage space will be a problem on next gen consoles.

That is a reduction over already compressed data. So it is an improvement over an already compressed game not Oodle Texture vs raw :). So it is more nuanced than that.

The point about better compression ratio helping when transferring data into RAM and doing its part to increase visual quality and variety stands :).
 
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yurinka

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No, you're not. Texture-compression will normally not decompress (so it has nothing to do with the 22GB cap of PS5). Normally it is a format with quality loss but textures will remain in memory like "uncompressed" (without lossless compression) on the disc.

This article is FUD. It is nothing new. Oddle texture also work on PS4/xb1/PS3/xb360 nothing really revolutionary here.
But if we now count texture compression to the bandwidth ... well than we must recalculate everything.


Yes, the greyish texture for Warframe can be compressed relative lossless. I really don't know why they haven't used a good compression-format before. Oddle texture is nothing new.
Oodle Texture isn't a compression system, and it's loss less. It doesn't compress the textures, what it does is to rearrange the texture files internally in a way that later gets better compressed by a compressor.

In the PS5 case, the compressor is Kraken, a loss less compressor. So it's the same image, with the same original quality, using the same compressor and decompressor, but when applying Oodle before compressing the image, the compressed file gets way smaller.

The article says Oodle Texture is so new that some launch PS5 games won't support it. So I highly doubt it was available on PS3 an so on. They also mention all future PS5 games would use it.
 
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Allandor

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Oodle Texture isn't a compression system, and it's loss less. It doesn't compress the textures, what it does is to rearrange the texture files internally in a way that later gets better compressed by a compressor.
That part is not correct. Yes, oodle textures rearrange (with loss) but also uses the "best case" texture compression for the texture (BC1-7). And last but not least, works with almost every compression format (kraken, zlib, ...) and on any hardware (like PS3 & PS4).
 

truth411

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Yes, we already talked about this topic weeks ago. Neogaf > Internet > Neogaf. There's a gaf thread from July talking about the same topic than the OP:
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/krak...what-ps5-hardware-will-be-capable-of.1558927/

Cerny wasn't on drugs when he mentioned PS5 was able to load stuff from the SSD at up to 22GB/s if particularly well compressed, or when mentinoning 0.5s loading times for when streaming in-game stuff that is behind you. There's a real world benchmark backing his claims.
Thanks 👍🏿
 

DonJuanSchlong

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this is how sony destroys xbox...2s load times are epic


xsx is faster, but nobody will think so, because it's so SLoW


nobody likes waiting in line, which is now what xbox is...waiting
I have a hard time deciphering whether some people match their profile picture. You look old enough to drink alcohol, but either type like your way younger, or you drank too much before logging on GAF.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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I'm 42, and I'm sorry I made fun of your favorite corporate institution. Wanna talk it out?
Sure, let's start with Xbox isn't my favorite corporation. I don't even console game to begin with, shocker huh? It just seemed like a comment a child would make, regardless if it was aimed at nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Dreamcast, etc.
 

Kerlurk

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Doesn't matter, none of that is sustained speed and they're advertising peak speeds just like snake oil vendors of SSD's do.

Almost everyone, including Microsoft quote peak speeds.

Even sustained speeds can be seen as very misleading, cause those sustained speeds would only show up in a particular benchmark, and would be different in other benchmarks. Depends on what data you're dealing with, and how you're loading them.

That's why synthetic benchmarks in my opinion is a useless way to understand how fast a system is. I always avoid those sections in reviews.

And to be fair, you have to run the same synthetic benchmark on all the competing systems. That's not going to happen, especially if it makes another system look worst, which it would in the case of the XSX. It simply has less raw bandwidth, and of course that will reflect in synthetic benchmarks.

Every game is different, so how they are loading data, and what particular data they have, will effect what sustained speeds they getting.

Real world practical tests are coming. I will let you know when I get my PS5. :LOL:
 
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gamerguywashere

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Sure, let's start with Xbox isn't my favorite corporation. I don't even console game to begin with, shocker huh? It just seemed like a comment a child would make, regardless if it was aimed at nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Dreamcast, etc.

so you felt triggered because PC will also be slow?

30TF sitting idle waiting on hdd


i might have to get a PS5
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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so you felt triggered because PC will also be slow?

30TF sitting idle waiting on hdd


i might have to get a PS5
What are you even on about? Lol trying to diss people anyway you can huh?

Dude your 42 years old, don't you think this is getting kinda embarrassing for your age? Just a thought, cause this is cringey as hell.

Also who uses primarily a HDD on PC in the past 10 plus years, especially with a RTX 3080 lol, this must be a troll/satire account.
 
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