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Hillary Clinton Introduces Videogame Regulation Legislation
- Thread starter Ark-AMN
- Start date
Mr Mike said:
Seriously, come on... think about it before you make responses like this.
The games we're talking about aren't just the minority of GTA ultraviolence clones.
These are games with *any* mature themes in them, from Ultima 7 to Planescape to Silent Hill to Longest Journey.
This is immensely damaging to the development of games as an art.
Where would we be if they did this to movies in the 20s? We would have no Apocolypse Now, no Saving Private Ryan, no Blue Velvet, no Clockwork Orange, no Alien, no Aliens... thousands of amazing classic movies would never have existed.
Please don't bait these politicians with a "for the kid's sake no blood and titties!" response. It plays right into their hands.
Father_Brain
Banned
Mr Mike said:
That's exactly what they're proposing. The law defines M-rated games as inappropriate for minors and uses fines to enforce said judgment.
FlyinJ said:
Is Planescape rated M, then? Apologies, I guess I'm thinking about this differently because as I say here in the UK our BBFC ratings allow for 15 and 18 ratings, and M is somewhere in between that, is it not? When I make comments like the above I refer to trash such as the 50 Cent game, which was clearly devised to sell the gansta image to impressionable fans, IMO.
Father_Brain said:
And how is that censorship? How is that stopping games developers and publishers from making games with mature themes? If, as Next-Gen suggests, the retailers and publishers will cave and start dumbing down the stories to PG-13 levels of idiocy, then perhaps that proves that the wrong games really are being sold to kids all along?
Please be aware that I don't maintain this is the right piece of legislation - I merely like discussing this topic from all angles. I'm a gamer, but I'm not precious about games - I won't fall on their sword the minute they get criticised.
Buffy4ever
Banned
h1nch said:
Pleases don't stereotype...I am a Christian and I am not in-support of any kind of censorship. It is up to the mom and dad to watching the children not the government.
They had a big thing on the NBC news tonight how bad video games are. It was making me really mad how the media was making video games out to be evil.
C- Warrior
Banned
This is classyfing games as pornography.
Software, on the level of 'pornography' will not be sold at major retailers, thus conflicting game sales, the business, thus restricting creative emphasis on this art form thus violating the 1st ammendment, thus will get overtuned once Doug Loustein and his crew bitch about this to no end.
Industry for the win. However, the win part is nearly definite, but the process takes awhile, since I believe the courtdate for the Illoinois challenge hasn't even come yet, let alone Califonia (which as Doug said, is next on the list)
As to those saying "minors shouldn't play games" okay good, the parents decide that.
A 12 yr. old can be more mature than a 20 yr. old etc. etc. etc. etc., the government doesn't know this. Call me old fashioned, but the power just be in the house. Stop displacing the problem, and educate parents on various video game titles.
I mean honestly, a video game is pretty long, it has audio and visuals, I don't care how fuckin busy you are as a parent, it's not that difficult to take one second, and open the door, see what the child is playing, look the disc, the game, the box, the ratings, and go from there.
ESA will challenge this, money will go the shit, when instead that money could have been used to air commercials telling parents what those letters on the box mean. But hey, saying that Hilary created the "FAMILY.PROTECTION.ACT" sounds oh-so good on a commercial now doesn't it?
Software, on the level of 'pornography' will not be sold at major retailers, thus conflicting game sales, the business, thus restricting creative emphasis on this art form thus violating the 1st ammendment, thus will get overtuned once Doug Loustein and his crew bitch about this to no end.
Industry for the win. However, the win part is nearly definite, but the process takes awhile, since I believe the courtdate for the Illoinois challenge hasn't even come yet, let alone Califonia (which as Doug said, is next on the list)
As to those saying "minors shouldn't play games" okay good, the parents decide that.
A 12 yr. old can be more mature than a 20 yr. old etc. etc. etc. etc., the government doesn't know this. Call me old fashioned, but the power just be in the house. Stop displacing the problem, and educate parents on various video game titles.
I mean honestly, a video game is pretty long, it has audio and visuals, I don't care how fuckin busy you are as a parent, it's not that difficult to take one second, and open the door, see what the child is playing, look the disc, the game, the box, the ratings, and go from there.
ESA will challenge this, money will go the shit, when instead that money could have been used to air commercials telling parents what those letters on the box mean. But hey, saying that Hilary created the "FAMILY.PROTECTION.ACT" sounds oh-so good on a commercial now doesn't it?
C- Warrior
Banned
f_elz said:
It's an easy target, brownie points for politicians.
So the ESA needs to fight back harder, they've won a lot, but apparently not enough to get the message accross to "not mess with us again fuckers."
SolidSnakex
Member
f_elz said:
Movie theatres would be out of a business if you were fined for letting kids see R movies and so would rental stores.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Essentially, Clinton is saying that video games are worse than than selling cigarettes or even porn to children. This kind of backwards thinking is very dangerous. I can understand people wanting to ensure kids aren't allowed to buy M rated games. But...the implementation is laughable.
Clinton is a pathetic failure, and although I am a liberal, I'd love to see her run and get destroyed by McCain or whoever the republicans through at her. Supporting video game regulation isn't going to gain the moral values croud, at all. Last time I checked, she still supports gay marriage and abortion, and making sure kids can't play GTA isn't going to get her those people's votes.
Clinton is a pathetic failure, and although I am a liberal, I'd love to see her run and get destroyed by McCain or whoever the republicans through at her. Supporting video game regulation isn't going to gain the moral values croud, at all. Last time I checked, she still supports gay marriage and abortion, and making sure kids can't play GTA isn't going to get her those people's votes.
5+ years ago this would have pissed me off to no end, but now that I'm 22... sorry to hear the news kids, but it doesn't mean a damn thing to me. 
PhoenixDark: Come on, it's not like Clinton is the only politican with an agenda that may seem somewhat selfish. It's just that I don't think she feels like she has much to hide.
You don't want another four years of a Republican White House...
PhoenixDark: Come on, it's not like Clinton is the only politican with an agenda that may seem somewhat selfish. It's just that I don't think she feels like she has much to hide.
You don't want another four years of a Republican White House...
SolidSnakex
Member
Diablos said:
I don't want 4 years of a Democrat imitating a Republican either.
And McCain is a far-right wolf in Centrist clothing. Not buying that middle of the road shit, Mr. McCain. We know you're a staunch conservative.Arsynic said:
Damn libruls, likely to look out for the hard honest worker instead of corporations that are already filthy rich to begin with, how dare they try to run for office and help us!
:rolleyes
SSX: Uh, Clinton is not going to pretend to be a Republican.
I don't want Clinton to run for this reason alone (no one seems to like her, god dammit), so all I have to say is that if she does and many Democrats still vote Republican because you're all so turned off by her... no bitching when a new version of George W. Bush with better communication skills carries on the torch.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Diablos said:I don't want Clinton to run for this reason alone (no one seems to like her, god dammit), so all I have to say is that if she does and many Democrats still vote Republican because you're all so turned off by her... no bitching when a new version of George W. Bush with better communication skills carries on the torch.
I'll bitch, I wouldn't respect the party for nominating her.
Uh, where have you been?Pellham said:
Al and Tipper Gore were basically responsible for pushing the Parental Advisory music label (originally dubbed the "Tipper Sticker"), the TV ratings system, and the V-Chip; Bill Clinton always bitched and moaned about kids getting a "daily dosage of violence on television"; his wife has ALWAYS been against violence and pornography that's all too easily accessible by minors.
This is nothing new, guys...
And quite honestly, they're not trying to censor games, just enforce stricter rules... it's not like you're gonna get a version of GTA, profanity-free, no prostitutes on the streets and guns replaced by super soakers
Whatever, that's your opinion.Musashi Wins! said:
But if I basically have to choose between a President that will enfore stronger laws when it comes to age limits on games and movies, or a President that will possibly start yet another unnecessary conflict, I think I'd rather see the law that pisses off a bunch of minors passed instead.
Not saying that Clinton is perfect and without flaws, but geez, it would be so nice if the only thing people our age had to complain about right now would be stupid laws like this instead of the war in Iraq, the up and down economy, the fundamentalist loons dictating this country's "morals and ethics" well beyond video games.
dammitmattt
Banned
FlyinJ said:
I can't believe no one corrected this. Wal-Mart is actually in the range of 10-20% of the market. I can't remember the exact number. As far as I know, the new number one retailer is actually Gamestop after the EB acquisition/merger.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Diablos said:
Who elses opinion would it be?
I don't want Emperor Bush III, Diablos, but there are other reasons not to be thrilled with Dynasty Clinton either. Beyond the absolute baseline opinion that I'm not voting in political fucking families. Take it a step further and if she's the best the Democratic party can do then I'll simply refrain from endorsing the lesser of two evils. I will however, still feel free to bitch.
btw, they can't be that stupid...she would never win.
ToyMachine228
Member
I don't have a problem with retailers not selling Mature games to minors...I'm fine with that. It's the fact that they claim that the ESRB doesn't do their job that pushes me over the line. Give me a break. I can't think of a game that has really been rated "wrong".
Games are just like any other media...Movies, books, whatever. The creators have the freedom of expression and the government shouldn't be interfering with it in my opinion.
Games are just like any other media...Movies, books, whatever. The creators have the freedom of expression and the government shouldn't be interfering with it in my opinion.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Diablos said:
A white, male, conservative, southern governor.
ok, I'm depressed now :\
A middle ground needs to be reached.
It's nice to say "let the parents decide" but clearly that alone hasn't been working. So they've got to go after the place where it'd be most effective: the retailers. Whether you find it sad or not, that's really where it's going to work. At the cost of other games? Eh, it depends. The U.S. isn't the only market for games, and most retailers probably wouldn't drop M Rated products in their entirety because they're still an important source of profits and revenue, versus porn, which in this day and age is virtually free.
It's nice to say "let the parents decide" but clearly that alone hasn't been working. So they've got to go after the place where it'd be most effective: the retailers. Whether you find it sad or not, that's really where it's going to work. At the cost of other games? Eh, it depends. The U.S. isn't the only market for games, and most retailers probably wouldn't drop M Rated products in their entirety because they're still an important source of profits and revenue, versus porn, which in this day and age is virtually free.
What exactly is so wrong with keeping M-rated from being sold to minors? Can you really be that self-absorbed as to not see why this legislation is being proposed? This only takes care of the retailer's responsibility anyway--that is, if someone else wants to buy you the game, so be it.
Seriously, why is this even such a big deal? Are that many of you guys under 17 and pissed that you won't be able to buy your own M-rated games? If so, you can go whine some more with the kids who can't get into R rated movies and whatnot...eventually you'll grow up and all will be well.
Seriously, why is this even such a big deal? Are that many of you guys under 17 and pissed that you won't be able to buy your own M-rated games? If so, you can go whine some more with the kids who can't get into R rated movies and whatnot...eventually you'll grow up and all will be well.
That's what I'm trying to figure out.papercut said:
I really hope this isn't the defining thing among young people in 2008 that would keep them from voting from the Democratic candidate, because if this thread is an indication, many young people don't like this at all. But fuck, what do you want, banned M rated games in a worst case sceanario or another war? Yeesh.
If they ban M rated video games from certain retailers...
...fuck 'em, I can get them cheaper (with shipping included) from newegg. Mwahaha.
FlyinJ said:
I call bullshit on this. You're jumping to the worst possible scenario here, which just isn't true.
It's been illegal to sell R-rated movies to minors here in Nova Scotia for quite a while. It's also been illegal to seel M-rated games to minors here for quite a while. And guess what? I can walk into any Futureshop (Best Buy) and buy me an R-rated movie. I can walk into any Electronics Boutique and buy me an M-rated game.
Laws like this have not resulted in what you're suggesting. That's just an alarmist point of view.
FlyinJ said:
I doubt 16-year-olds really appreciate the "art" in videogames...beyond cuteness/graphics anyway.
Games should be subject to the same regulation as movies. PG-13 movies have plenty of "art." Any artistic movie that's rated R was probably never meant to be viewed by kids anyway.
Once again, just because you can't sell them to kids doesn't mean that they won't be made. And if the next GTA isn't made because it was shown that 80% of the people playing it are minors who can no longer buy it, then that's just your tough luck--Hillary's right all along.
Diablos said:
I'm as liberal as they come. This has absoultely nothing to do with my views on Clinton.
As a matter of fact, I most likely will vote for her if she runs. It's one of the only issues that I completely disagree with that the Democratic platfrom latches onto (it's obviously a "oh noes teh children!!!" easy target for them to boost their "family values" ticket).
To the point, I don't believe this is a scare tactic at all. This is real, and they have been trying to do it for years. California has already passed a bill like this.
If BestBuy and WalMart got fined for every R rated DVD they sold to a minor, you think they would still stock them?
Mr. Lemming
Member
I'm curious as to how online play affects this... I mean every game has the whole "experience may change" deal before it, but then... well you know... the Internet. Online gaming is not the most E for Everyone place.
Then again maybe online play will be affected by this legislation. Live would be a different place for sure.
Then again maybe online play will be affected by this legislation. Live would be a different place for sure.
Fuck Walmart, they already censor their music (and don't carry it if the label refuses), and I'd imagine that they would push for censoring movies someday, too -- long before they just take it off the shelf completely. So it would be nothing shocking. The government can try to make this law apply to all retailers but I really DO NOT see this happening, consumers ultimately control the marketplace (hello capitalism) and believe me, many people (like you) are not going to tolerate seeing something you are legally entitled to buy being yanked from the shelf because some mother doesn't want Little Bobby to even read the back of the new GTA case. The demand for keeping it will be TOO HIGH and the government won't be able to do shit.FlyinJ said:
Do NOT waste your energy on such petty issues... there are so many other things to worry about in this country right now.
FlyinJ said:
Not national, no. It's been done at the Provincial level up here. I don't remember offhand how many other provinces do it, but it's been done in Nova Scotia, Ontario and Manitoba as far as I know. I haven't kept up, but I know BC was looking into it as well, as is New Brunswick.
http://www.gov.ns.ca/aga/filmclassification.asp
If you check that listing, you'll note that "Theatres and retail video outlets are required by law to enforce the age limitations" in Nova Scotia. You'll also see through the link on the right that videogames fall under the same act here, though they decided to adopt the ESRB ratings instead of creating their own.
And let me repeat -- this has NOT affected availability of r-rated movies and m-rated games here.
There is nothing at all wrong with this legislation. It helps parents, it does not replace them. Kids should not have free access to these types of games, and if the industry is unwilling to police itself then I have no problem with legislation being introduced to make them do so.
And FlyinJ, dude, you are off your rocker. M-rated games will continue to be made and stores will continue to stock them unless they are proven to be wholly unmarketable. You and whoever else that claim this makes them synonymous with pornography (in retailers' eyes) are either entirely stupid or are just being sensationalistic.
And FlyinJ, dude, you are off your rocker. M-rated games will continue to be made and stores will continue to stock them unless they are proven to be wholly unmarketable. You and whoever else that claim this makes them synonymous with pornography (in retailers' eyes) are either entirely stupid or are just being sensationalistic.
But isn't that the point? The potential effect of this legislation is to push certain kinds of games out of stores...which means they won't be made.Odysseus said:
If you think this is a baseless concern...there is already precedent. There is de facto -- notice I didn't say de jure -- censorship of NC-17 or X movies which are not porn since there is practically no theater which will show them. How many do you think get made?
As already noted, this is a shallow attempt at "pro-family" posturing. If she was REALLY pro-family, she'd be more concerned about fixing a lack of parental responsibility and less concerned about having government trying to pick up the slack.
The other, very real possibility is that she is technologically ignorant. With all due respect, our country is run by a bunch of rich older people whose main talent has to be likeability, not intelligence. We have people passing laws (and interpreting and enforcing them) about technologies they don't understand, and it's a HUGE fucking problem. (Copyright law, stem cell research, inordinately large penalties for "hacking" -- it isn't just games.) As Arthur C. Clarke pointed out, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -- and the current vogue among our leaders is burning witches.
It's not censorship directly, but it has a chilling effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect