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[Musashi Wins!]

And I say it lovingly....


When did the d20 system take over the whole world? Why was it so successful? Is it really better than anything else or were people just making more money by everything being cross compatible?

I was browsing a hobby shop yesterday and though I don't get the opportunity to play anymore, I'm still fascinated by the books, etc. Anyhow, almost everything is d20 now! Even independent supplements, etc. I don't know if the system has to be licensed or what but I was shocked by it's domination. I assume the D&D system pushed it, but I'm so far away from the publishing history there I have no idea when it happened.

 

[flarkminator]

Are you referring to the 'dumb-downed' version where EVERYTHING requires a d20?

Or are you just talking about AD&D v1 - 3, where d20 was required for a lot of things like ThAC0 and resistance, and why was that so popular?

One of the nice things about a 20 sided die is that it gives you a fair number of outcomes, and was easy to roll (have you ever tried rolling a 100 sided die?....it never stops rolling..EVER)

 

[robo_robo]

One of the nice things about a 20 sided die is that it gives you a fair number of outcomes, and was easy to roll (have you ever tried rolling a 100 sided die?....it never stops rolling..EVER)

That's why you use 2xd10? yeah...

 

[flarkminator]

That's why you use 2xd10? yeah...

I was making a comentary on die numbered higher than 20, it becomes increasingly harder to roll a die when its higher than 20. And yes, thats why people usually roll 2d10 instead of a d100.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Are you referring to the 'dumb-downed' version where EVERYTHING requires a d20?

Or are you just talking about AD&D v1 - 3, where d20 was required for a lot of things like ThAC0 and resistance, and why was that so popular?

One of the nice things about a 20 sided die is that it gives you a fair number of outcomes, and was easy to roll (have you ever tried rolling a 100 sided die?....it never stops rolling..EVER)

I think I'm referring to the first though I'm not sure. I just know that nearly every (well about 75%) of the shelfspace at a rather large gaming section was taken up by products that say "based on d20 rules, ver. x.x"

 

[Ulairi]

D20 took over since it is D&D. D&D has always been the gold standard of P&P role-playing and the fact that it is open source allows anyone to produce content for it.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

D20 took over since it is D&D. D&D has always been the gold standard of P&P role-playing and the fact that it is open source allows anyone to produce content for it.

Well that makes sense. I just remember D&D being very popular even back when I used to play occasionally, but not having the overwhelming amount of genres and support it seems to now. There seemed to be every variant you could imagine using the ruleset along with a bunch of independent support to it (though the open source thing explains that).

 

[flarkminator]

I think I'm referring to the first though I'm not sure. I just know that nearly every (well about 75%) of the shelfspace at a rather large gaming section was taken up by products that say "based on d20 rules, ver. x.x"

Well there is a complete rule set referred to as D20 (capitol d).

It a simpler system than regular ad&d. Basicaly you can play an entire game of D20 and the old die you need is a 20 sided die. However if you wanted to sit down to play old school you need a significant number of other dice.

Basically its the fact that people are lazy, they want their shit 'fast-foodisized' even in their table top RPG's =(. And yes, Ulairi is right, D&D is D&D, I mean, it IS Rpg.

here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D20

 

[Musashi Wins!]

What an interesting entry, I should check wikipedia more.

A large proportion of RPG gaming is based in the military?!? I've never heard such a thing.

 

[DarienA]

Man I miss the good ole days...

AD&D.... Champions... I use to love reading the AD&D manuals... Dieties and Demigods was always my favorite....

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Man I miss the good ole days...

AD&D.... Champions... I use to love reading the AD&D manuals... Dieties and Demigods was always my favorite....

You said it. I always liked the first AD&D Dungeon Masters book too. So much cool shit in there.

 

[shoplifter]

Hero System 4 lyfe yo.

<3 bell curves <3

I even use 3d6 for my 3rd edition d&d games now since I hate the complete randomness of the d20.

I think you're going to find in the next few years though that d20 products are going to slow down quite a bit and lots of publishers will go back to their house systems since d20 sales have been taking a downturn.

 

[teiresias]

I always wanted to play P&P RPGs, but never could find anyone to do it, and quite frankly, I always found it boring, since the few times I did play we spent more time flipping through books figuring out how to roll and then calculate the outcome of whatever we were doing. I mean, really, it shouldn't take 15 minutes to figure out whether you succeeded in zipping your fly without ruining your chances at fatherhood.

 

[shoplifter]

It gets better. Eventually you learn the book pretty thoroughly by memory and if you don't you know exactly where to look.

Maybe you'd like something a little more rules lite though?

 

[Parallax Scroll]

The d20 rules are based on D&D 3rd edition, right? 3rd edition uses the 20-sided die more than 2nd edition did, but it's not used exclusively. Damage rolls, for example, still use 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12-sided dice. I haven't played any d20 games other than D&D 3rd edition, but I assumed that's how the rest of them worked as well.

 

[shoplifter]

More or less yes. A few publishers are doing some really interesting (and honestly less bland than the base system) things with d20 like Blue Rose/True20, Mutants and Masterminds, and Iron Heroes.

Lots of modifications to base rules, and replacements of stuff I don't like (having armor provide damage resistance instead of AC, fixed hp/lower massive damage threshold, damage saves, etc).

The older editions had no real unifying mechanic for skills/saves/attacks/etc. Saves were roll over, skills/proficiencies were roll under iirc in 2nd edition, attacks were based on THAC0 for each class (and in fact 1st edition ad&d didn't let the players know what they needed to roll to hit a given AC, only the DM really knew).

Honestly, I like the freedom that 3e gives, but I like the 1e feel far more so I'd rather just play Hackmaster with some modifications if I were going to run a long-term game of D&D.


Right now, my pet project is to run Eberron with GURPS or Hero. That's once my CoC campaign is over though.

 

[ManaByte]

The d20 rules are based on D&D 3rd edition, right? 3rd edition uses the 20-sided die more than 2nd edition did, but it's not used exclusively. Damage rolls, for example, still use 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12-sided dice. I haven't played any d20 games other than D&D 3rd edition, but I assumed that's how the rest of them worked as well.

d20 rules is an open-source ruleset that WOTC used for D&D.

The reason why d20 took over the world is simple, it's an open-source ruleset ANYONE can use. WOTC used it in D&D to get people to learn the ruleset so it'll spread like wildfire.

 

[shoplifter]

Its pretty much the 'jack of all trades master of none' ruleset. It does everything passably, nothing wonderfully. I'd use it, but it's rarely my first choice for anything.

And yes, the open sourcing of the system was great until people realized that 90% of the stuff that is coming out is total crap. There are still some good publishers that you can count on to release quality books pretty much everytime though, like Necromancer Games, Malhavoc, Green Ronin and Kenzer (even though Kalamar is way too bland for lots of people, I like it as much as Greyhawk).


\/\/\/ except its actually pretty damn good. I'm not a fan of levels in CoC, so just throw that out and give skill points every once in a while. Make their HP equal to their Con score, and they never go up. Regardless, its better than the combat system in BRP CoC.

Keep in mind that John Tynes (of Delta Green fame) wrote it so its pretty much gold.


edit2: holy shit, I just realized your tag was a Willie D quote. <3 Willie James Dennis <3 Goin Out Like a Soldier is easily his greatest work. After all, he IS that 'mutha fuckin god damned nigga'.

 

[Blackace]

D20 can kiss my a$$

when I saw the D20 Call of Cthulhu game a small part of me died as I threw up a little in my mouth

 

[teiresias]

I actually bought the "Vampire: The Masquerade" rule book a few years back and I think it's a fascinating read - just for the world it depicts and not so much the rules, since I never actually played the game. I just like P&P rule books for some reason, kind of think of them as classier videogame manuals I suppose. :lol

I think I'm a bit too spoiled at this point for a pure P&P game though, I need some glitz and some mood. It would be nice if something for PC came out to fulfill the promises that were made for Neverwinter Nights - but creating a program that lets you do meaningful scripting and scenario building that isn't extremely script-heavy is pretty difficult (I loved writing scripts for NW nights though).

 

[Helznicht]

Yep, open source led to a growing market. It basically allowed smaller publishers to dabble in the market without all the licensing hassle.

really, it shouldn't take 15 minutes to figure out whether you succeeded in zipping your fly without ruining your chances at fatherhood.

Ehh its who you play with, the rules are there for a guideline only and are not set in stone. I have always found the free'er the DM is with the rules, the more fun the game can be.

D&D is great, all versions, as is the hero system (nice balance and freedom in character creation).

But my favorite has to the the Rolemaster series from I.C.E. They also produced the Middle earth RPG's base on a Rolemaster "lite" system. They were based on all roles being 1-100%.

 

[shoplifter]

I think you mean Chartmaster, sir.

Have you checked out HARP? The 'new' ICE put it out about 2 years back, its more or less a streamlined version of Rolemaster. Pretty cool stuff really.

 

[flarkminator]

Call me an old man but I really enjoyed old school ad&d v2...

I mean, Psionicists Handbook > *

 

[Ristamar]

For those who want more info on the d20 system:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/D20-system

Some of the information is a bit outdated, I believe. For example, Ryan Dancey hasn't been D&D Brand Manager for about two years, IIRC.

Call me an old man but I really enjoyed old school ad&d v2...

I mean, Psionicists Handbook > *

There is a 3rd edition publication of the Psionics Handbook.

 

[shoplifter]

I played a halfling Psion with that thing, its just too bad that the kits that TSR introduced a few years into 2e's life were horrifically unbalanced and they nearly killed the game with tons of crap supplements that no one wanted or needed.

If you're looking for the 1/2e feel, I'd seriously recommend Hackmaster. Kenzer did a great job making it feel really old school, and I'd have been totally happy with Hackmaster as 3e. Just throw out the humor if that isn't your bag. Plus, all your old 1/2e modules are compatible, just add 20HP to pretty much everything.

Seriously, who wouldn't want to play this:

Plus all the covers to modules and the Hacklopedias have PCs being slaughtered.

 

[flarkminator]

I played a halfling Psion with that thing, its just too bad that the kits that TSR introduced a few years into 2e's life were horrifically unbalanced and they nearly killed the game with tons of crap supplements that no one wanted or needed.

If you're looking for the 1/2e feel, I'd seriously recommend Hackmaster. Kenzer did a great job making it feel really old school, and I'd have been totally happy with Hackmaster as 3e. Just throw out the humor if that isn't your bag. Plus, all your old 1/2e modules are compatible, just add 20HP to pretty much everything.

Seriously, who wouldn't want to play this:

Plus all the covers to modules and the Hacklopedias have PCs being slaughtered.

Thats what I'm talkin about baby

 

[Musashi Wins!]

D20 can kiss my a$$

when I saw the D20 Call of Cthulhu game a small part of me died as I threw up a little in my mouth

Yea, but the D20 game was done (I think) by John Tynes who's Delta Green sourcebooks are FRICKIN AWESOME. They are so good they are worth reading as a Cthulhu fan.

Those Hackmaster books look great. Is that an independent publisher? Some of the covers look like plays on the old AD&D covers.

 

[ManaByte]

Call me an old man but I really enjoyed old school ad&d v2...

I mean, Psionicists Handbook > *

I remember Chronomancers in AD&D.

DM: This big evil wizard is tormenting a town. You must save the town.

Chronomancer: Ok, I go back in time and kill the evil wizard when he's a baby.

Game over.

 

[Mashing]

You said it. I always liked the first AD&D Dungeon Masters book too. So much cool shit in there.

I liked the Monsterous Manual for the badass illustrations.

 

[Teddman]

You know what rocked, Steve Jackson's Sorcery! books.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Those Hackmaster books look great. Is that an independent publisher? Some of the covers look like plays on the old AD&D covers.

Hackmaster was originally a parody of D&D that was played by characters in the comic strip "Knights of the Dinner Table." After KODT spent several years as a monthly comic book, they went ahead and made Hackmaster into a real game.

 

[shoplifter]

Yeah, due to a lawsuit settlement (over what I can't remember) Kenzer got approval through WotC to publish remakes of AD&D modules, provided that 'remakes' (more like remixes) of the old modules are done in a parodical style. Just remove the humor if you want, and you have a perfectly usable old school style module. Little Keep on the Borderlands is fucking outstanding.

And yes, the covers of the DMG and PHB are more or less versions of the old covers with PCs getting killed in various ways. Even if you never play the game, its worth owning both the PHB and DMG just to read as they're absolutely hysterical if you're an oldschool gamer.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I'll have to check those out. I noticed the other day that there is a new edition of Paranoia out and an adventure module based on missing WMDs :lol

 

[PC Gaijin]

What an interesting entry, I should check wikipedia more.

A large proportion of RPG gaming is based in the military?!? I've never heard such a thing.

I'd be interested in the source for that too. I know it's only anectdotal, but during my enlistment in the Army in the early 90s, I never met a single soldier that was into PnP RPGs, unless you count table-top wargames (I knew two guys who were into that). Yes, I know they are somewhat similar, and PnP RPGs have their roots in wargames, but I wonder if the Wikipedia entry is referring to that? And the whole thing about not having access to game shops sounds little strange to me. If you're posted in the US that really shouldn't be a problem at all, and if you're overseas hello mail order or internet.

Honestly though, while I enjoy reading Wikipedia now and then (sometimes I'll get absorbed for hours just following link after link) there's also a lot of shit and misinformation in there.

I haven't played PnP since the 80s, but I still pick up manuals and books now and then. Like teiresias I just enjoy reading them. I've also managed to hang on to my collection of Dragon and Dungeon magazines from the 80s. It's a pain to cart around every time I move, but I love going back and rereading those things. Brings back lots of good memories, plus there's lots of fabulous art (I'm a sucker for Western fantasy art).

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I haven't played PnP since the 80s, but I still pick up manuals and books now and then. Like teiresias I just enjoy reading them.

Me too. There's a lot of creativity in the field, especially if rulesets, imaginary worlds/races, etc. captivate you. And let's face it, besides being a training ground for many of todays best video game designers, it's still feasible to actually create a good tabletop or rpg in your spare time or with friends. I hear kids say this about video games, but that's become a very different arena with the increase in technology. When I was younger I made board games with elements from the rpg books I loved, haha.

I haven't played an actual PnP in forever. Speaking of times gone by, anyone remember "Twilight 2000"? I remember playing quite a few sessions of that cold war relic. Post holocaust scenarios were much bigger then :lol

 

[homerhendrix]

I've never played a pen and paper RPG but was intrigued as to what a 100 sided die might look like, and after seeing pictures I have no idea how it would work. It looks like a ball with numbers behind an outer clear plastic shell. How do you decide what number you've rolled?

 

[Ristamar]

I've never played a pen and paper RPG but was intrigued as to what a 100 sided die might look like, and after seeing pictures I have no idea how it would work. It looks like a ball with numbers behind an outer clear plastic shell. How do you decide what number you've rolled?

d100s are horrid. It's like rolling a golf ball and then trying to decide which dimple is at the apex of the ball.

2D10 FO' LYFE.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

"But my favorite has to the the Rolemaster series from I.C.E. They also produced the Middle earth RPG's base on a Rolemaster "lite" system. They were based on all roles being 1-100%."

Signed. I could never understand the D&D setup, playing in Middle-Earth was so much more fun. Eventually we threw out most of the MERP rules and made our own hybrid, using the more detailed weapon tables of RM and changing battle mechanics so it wasn't TOO slow.

You sure take your character more seriously when it takes 2 hours to make too . I still use those old MERP characters in any game I can create characters in, WoW, Morrowind, etc.

As for the military thing, I haven't served, but my friend and game-master did and he got a bunch of his friends there to play. At the time (6 years ago) they didn't really have much internet access or other stuff to do in their spare time, so RPGs was a great way to waste time.

 

[Helznicht]

I think you mean Chartmaster, sir.

Have you checked out HARP? The 'new' ICE put it out about 2 years back, its more or less a streamlined version of Rolemaster. Pretty cool stuff really.

But I liked Chart Master. I had a DM screen that had all the charts at a flip of a card, made it pretty easy. Of course the full out Rolemaster was on the rediculous side. Its been so long since I have played anything, but I will take a look for HARP next time im in a game store, sound pretty cool.

 

[LuCkymoON]

Shadowrun D6 4 life yo!
D20 Modern blows me! :lol

I played alot of AD&D but never really liked the ruleset. BTW Did TMNT use the same ruleset as AD&D? I thought it did from what I can remember....

 

[Helznicht]

BTW Did TMNT use the same ruleset as AD&D?

Oh no. It was more like Hero, except with a much more limited character creation system.

 

[shoplifter]

TMNT was a Palladium game, so it was pretty much insane.

Shadowrun 4th Edition just came out a few weeks ago, and I've been thinking about picking it up even though I know I'll never end up playing it.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Palladium rules were nuts. It was like stat porn. Everyone loved the Rifts ruleset and making characters, but I never remember anyone playing any of their games :lol

 

[Blackace]

TMNT was a Palladium game, so it was pretty much insane.

Shadowrun 4th Edition just came out a few weeks ago, and I've been thinking about picking it up even though I know I'll never end up playing it.

Palladium rule set is completely insane.. completely...

 

[LuCkymoON]

Palladium rule set is completely insane.. completely...

Yeah it was insane... On another note, I will prolly buy SR 4th edition too. Im sure I will never play it though.