Thanks.
But still find this difference in writing styles, themes and characters between the two games very strange, almost as if they were written by different people.
It sounds like “The Last Jedi.”
Thanks.
But still find this difference in writing styles, themes and characters between the two games very strange, almost as if they were written by different people.
There's a cutscene where Marlene and Abby's daddy talk in front of her about Joel and how he traveled across the country with Ellie for a year and how he has a right to know they are gonna kill her now. To which Abby's daddy protests, but then Abby cheers he up, saying he is doing the right thing here.
You dont need to be a genius to put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion that Joel risked his life killing Fireflies guards in the hospital in order to save Ellie.
Yeah, a very convenient retcon to paint Joel as more of a ruthless killer. Just like they retconned 100% chance of vaccine and Firefly's ability to magically manufacture enough of it to cure millions of people and mend the world that had long gone to shit at that point.
Only she never regrets torturing and killing Joel whatsoever. She never gets flashbacks of it, never has nightmares about cruelly beating to a pulp an old man that just saved her life. There's nothing there.
When she finds out Ellie killed her friends because of her actions, she doesn't self reflect, doesn't regret anything, on the contrary she acts all surprised that Ellie dared to retaliate after saint Abby spared her life. So in her mind she was completely in the right killing Joel like that.
Then she proceeds to brutalise Ellie and almost kills a pregnant girl, stopping only because she didn't want to look bad before Lev, like a hypocrite she is. If it hadn't been for him she would have gladly killed them both and then continue with being a goody two shoes friend of Lev.
If Druckmann wanted Abbie to have a redemption arc he failed miserably on that front.
I'd argue that Druckmann gets a lot of credit for TLOU and in reality, the story was likely fleshed out with multiple opinions, including that of Straley.Thanks.
But still find this difference in writing styles, themes and characters between the two games very strange, almost as if they were written by different people.
Yikes. Kratos was a numbskull in the other games, he is actually quite fleshed out in the new game and it even dives into his shitty past. You are missing out on skipping that one.I haven’t played TLOU, but I understand why people may be upset. I couldn’t get into God of War 2018 because whoever that guy was, it wasn’t Kratos. I quite enjoy the entire series and a significant part of that enjoyment is Kratos. After all the atrocities he committed, I don’t really buy Kratos settling down and raising another family. The mechanics and design are great so I’ll eventually revisit the game but Dad of War just doesn’t sit well for me.
People have a hard time separating hero from protagonist. They keep thinking of Joel as the hero because he was the protagonist of the first game, but to everyone else he was a ruthless killer and admitted to being cruel himself in the past in order to survive.I have news for you, Joel was a ruthless killer.
Just because someone thinks they're right doesn't mean they aren't wrong.
Lev snapped Abby out of her rage, something fairly common in movies, tv, etc. Lev "said" this is wrong don't kill her.
Abby's entire arc was helping the enemy, who were essentially kids I guess since they keep referring to them that way. That's the way she found peace, because just as Ellie finally saw at the end, revenge doesn't heal you.
Btw the same thing happened to Joel, who found "salvation" in a child he became attached to and had to save.
I'd argue that Druckmann gets a lot of credit for TLOU and in reality, the story was likely fleshed out with multiple opinions, including that of Straley.
Totally reminiscent of Game Of Thrones - when the writers had Martin's books, they were incredibly well written and when the material left, the show got really weak. Maybe all this shows is Druckmann needs to lose the ego and get more help on writing from people familiar with gaming narratives and journeys instead of Hollywood writers.
I didn't hate the game (It still haunts me, I can't stop thinking about it which to me, makes it a great story) but will admit there are some major issues.
Yikes. Kratos was a numbskull in the other games, he is actually quite fleshed out in the new game and it even dives into his shitty past. You are missing out on skipping that one.
I actually like the game, but I admit that this is absolutely brilliant and hilarious.
It paid off for myself and plenty others who have loved the game. I can accept my opinion isn't the only one held, why can't you?
With respect to anyone who might disagree with this, I think the majority of non-troll, non-toxic haters who bash the game it has to do with Joel's death, the shock of it and the execution of it. Also the denial.I get why its a disaster for some, I think it was always the risk.
Looks like YongYea didn't understand it either!
Looks like YongYea didn't understand it either!
Yeah, he did some bad things to survive, but he wasn't a child killer like Abby's father and didn't kill and torture people for pleasure like Abby. So for all of his ruthlessness he is still a better person than either of them.I have news for you, Joel was a ruthless killer.
I think everybody understands the themes of the game, they are quite obvious, what we are discussing here is the execution of said themes through character development and believable writing, which this game lacks and which i pointed out in my previous post.Abby's entire arc was helping the enemy, who were essentially kids I guess since they keep referring to them that way. That's the way she found peace, because just as Ellie finally saw at the end, revenge doesn't heal you.
Yeah, he did some bad things to survive, but he wasn't a child killer like Abby's father and didn't kill and torture people for pleasure like Abby. So for all of his ruthlessness he is still a better person than either of them.
I think everybody understands the themes of the game, they are quite obvious, what we are discussing here is the execution of said themes through character development and believable writing, which this game lacks and which i pointed out in my previous post.
The Last of Us Part II is the most poignant and revolutionary game in terms of storytelling ever made. Via subtlety, it tactfully includes multiple contemporary themes in its story, such as homosexuality, transgenderism, and racial diversity - and it brilliantly weaves them into a seemingly traditional tale of revenge that winds up being told in a surprisingly novel fashion. It's bold and daring and therefore incites division. However, I find myself on the side of the dividing line that favors it.
If there is a downside, however, it's the game's failure to provide players with agency in regard to certain actions that the protagonists make; a narrative with multiple outcomes would have enabled Naughty Dog to be bold and daring while still appeasing the entirety of the franchise's fan base.
Assuming that you're not being sarcastic, I thank you.You sir have a bright career in games journalism.
I wouldn’t bet on that. His brother and only family member walked away from him in search of hope and returning the world to its old state via the Fireflies. Joel was fine doing what he had to to survive, Tommy wasn’t:Yeah, he did some bad things to survive, but he wasn't a child killer like Abby's father and didn't kill and torture people for pleasure like Abby. So for all of his ruthlessness he is still a better person than either of them.
It was selfish and about himself, absolutely. The entire story is about a redemption of saving his “daughter”.My issue with Joel rescuing Ellie from the Fireflies' hospital is that I'm not sure whether he truly did so for Ellie or did so for himself.
It was selfish and about himself, absolutely. The entire story is about a redemption of saving his “daughter”.
Ellie was ready to give her life for this, for her life to mean something. Joel couldn’t handle the loss again and wanted to save Ellie in a way he was unable to save Sarah. It’s doesn’t make him a bad guy, but he made the decision for himself and what he thought was best for Ellie, not that it was the best decision for the world or even for Ellie, it’s really makes the ending of the first game is so good!
Assuming that you're not being sarcastic, I thank you.
Oh, you were serious? I’m sorry.
Depends on how you feel about “the means justify the end”. In that sense, yes, they would be justified but in reality, their act is not pure either, it’s out of desperation.So, from a moral perspective, would you say that the Fireflies were morally justified in attempting to sacrifice Ellie?
I usually like them but I couldn’t make this through this video. I’m not a fan of the condescending “we understood the game” narrative whenever a controversial piece of media comes out. As if the people who didn’t like it are morons who didn’t get it. No that’s a false narrative. Plenty of people understood what they were doing and thought it was shit. No need to bring in some cognitive snobbery to justify your like of a game.
Yeah, they should have gone with this idea then, instead of trying to make us symphatise with an amoral doctor and his psycho daughter.It’s even stated Tommy got tired of doing the evil shit they were doing to stay alive. Keep in mind, the original backstory of Abby was Tommy and Joel attack and kill a caravan of survivors to steal their shit and kill Abby’s parents. It wasn’t changed because it was a “oh, well this would make Joel too evil” - it was that it was too generic.
Yeah, they should have gone with this idea then, instead of trying to make us symphatise with an amoral doctor and his psycho daughter.
I don’t know about how tactful “all”’of it was. Lev’s status seemed bolted on to push the plot forward. Ellie seemed much more realized and organic.The Last of Us Part II is the most poignant and revolutionary game in terms of storytelling ever made. Via subtlety, it tactfully includes multiple contemporary themes in its story, such as homosexuality, transgenderism, and racial diversity - and it brilliantly weaves them into a seemingly traditional tale of revenge that winds up being told in a surprisingly novel fashion. It's bold and daring and therefore incites division. However, I find myself on the side of the dividing line that favors it.
If there is a downside, however, it's the game's failure to provide players with agency in regard to certain actions that the protagonists make; a narrative with multiple outcomes would have enabled Naughty Dog to be bold and daring while still appeasing the entirety of the franchise's fan base.
Here's where you and I fundamentally disagree.It's very different to empathize with someone you already hate than with someone you don't. Since it's a game, this it's imposed on you, even if you never sympathize with Abby, you are forced to empathize with her by playing as her. Again, this it's not done much in other mediums because you have no way of forcing the spectator to interact with the narrative but in games you become the character for a while, meaning that all the character woes are by proxy experienced directly by you.
Having had some time to now digest TLoU II, my main problem I've identified with it is that the original was predominantly a character-driven experience, whereas TLoU II is much more thematically-driven that liberally creates and destroys characters, new and old alike, before they really have an opportunity for development for what ultimately amounts to an incredibly trite and nihilistic message that in the end doesn't convey anything all that meaningful.
The themes of the first game (loss, love) were conveyed through the characters and their journey, and the difference here is that the themes now feel to come at their expense. Characters aren’t developed nor grow towards a thematic goal in TLoU II as I see it, they’re essentially shallow pawns inevitably thrown into a meat grinder at its convenience, used to manipulate the audience through transparent plot contrivances and superficial window dressings until they are (pet the doggy, flirt with your boyfriend, smoke weed with your girlfriend, etc.) and shock value tactics (whoops, you killed a pregnant girl, Joel's/Jesse’s death) to grant plot impetus and to be able to eventually make a statement that ”Your enemies are people too!" or, ”Revenge is BAD!". No eventual thematic message excuses the atrocious treatment and manipulative nature of the characterization in order of its conveyance. The game downright exploits previous characters and uses them as nothing but fodder to hammer such vapid messages and themes home, which, in my opinion, is incredibly disrespectful, and leads me to understand why so many are so upset. The game sacrifices what it built for no real worthwhile payoff.
It honestly feels to me like the creators approached TLoU II fundamentally failing to understand what made the original so beloved, alongside amateurish writing and execution which didn't help. The shift from predominantly focusing on characterization in exemplification of themes from the first game to the shallow exploitation and manipulation of characterization to do so in the second gutted and cheapened the very soul of the experience that was TLoU, and as such, left it largely as nothing but an empty shell to convey a message of misery and nihilism that people are failing to see a point in. It's little wonder why.
While you might be right that SOME people might not be able to, there are lots of people that are, and maybe even some that weren't before.Here's where you and I fundamentally disagree.
You cannot impose empathy on a person, you can't force it. If you do, it's not genuine empathy. People need to open themselves up to empathize with another individual, it is as much a state of vulnerability to them as it involves the other person of whom they're trying to relate to. All you're doing by having people playing as Abby is destroying any enjoyment of the game. And if you say, "well, that's the game's point.....it makes you confront whether you're willing to lower your biases to empathize or not".....there's no profound message in that. It again, highlights a basic truism of human nature and psychology that's been known for a very long time. What is the game trying to prove? People don't care to empathize with something they hate.
News at 11.
Even though we have been shown irrefutable proof that Abby is the protagonist of her own story all we can say is as grief-stricken gamers is still
Dave Chappelle " bitch I'll never forgive you for this."
Herein lies a controversial yet innovative experiment to expose how the identity of the self relates to the identity of the other and the results have varied from person to person because there is no difficulty setting in the game or in life to make forgiving someone easier.
Girlfriend Reviews 5:25 to me that sentence says that you think players are too mad to realize the moral of the story.
One of my favorite videos on the game thus far. The think pieces, be they positive or negative, will be coming for years to come. We've never really had a game quite like this. And it came out in an already contentious time so provocative doesn't even begin to describe it.
Do you guys write essays like this for any other form of media?
If you don't like a movie or can't relate to the characters do you go in Reddit and say the same things over and over?
Is it just games?
For all the "Schindlers List" and "Neil killed my dad" videos out there I think this is a nice and balanced perspective of why TLOU2 took brave and commendable story telling challenges which respect the challenges the original game took on - and addresses why its not a home run for some, but for others it is such a game worth praise
I get why its a disaster for some, I think it was always the risk. The huge amount of discourse on the story is like nothing I've seen in recent memory. I'll never accuse Druckmann of not being ballsy in his story telling
ME3 would like a word.
Unlike Mass Effect 3 , half (maybe more, maybe less) of the TLOU players actually like TLOU2's storytelling. There is no consensus, as much as the critics like to pretend there is.
It's not about the fans, it's about the reviewers. The exact percentage of which fans liked it is not the issue. The issue is about the failure of games media to reflect audience expectation. Certainly the games getting talked about a lot, but not for the right reasons , and that the IGNs and GameInformers of this world don't reflect that in any way is dare one say...problematic in the truest sense of the word.
Can't tell if a post like this is serious. I've never found the majority of critics to be especially trustworthy sources but it's more than obvious why this game earned glowing scores. Places like Kotaku and Polygon had you covered on being disappointed, anyways.
Unlike Mass Effect 3 , half (maybe more, maybe less) of the TLOU players actually like TLOU2's storytelling. There is no consensus, as much as the critics like to pretend there is.
I would say its more of a Metal Gear Solid 2 situation where the fanbase is mixed on whether it was drivel, a masterpiece, or as you say just plain mediocrity. Neil even admitted MGS2 was one of the inspirations for the game, and even though both strive for totally different narrative goals, the similarities are quite evident.