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Girlfriend Reviews: Understanding Last of Us 2

bargeparty

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There's a cutscene where Marlene and Abby's daddy talk in front of her about Joel and how he traveled across the country with Ellie for a year and how he has a right to know they are gonna kill her now. To which Abby's daddy protests, but then Abby cheers he up, saying he is doing the right thing here.

You dont need to be a genius to put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion that Joel risked his life killing Fireflies guards in the hospital in order to save Ellie.


Yeah, a very convenient retcon to paint Joel as more of a ruthless killer. Just like they retconned 100% chance of vaccine and Firefly's ability to magically manufacture enough of it to cure millions of people and mend the world that had long gone to shit at that point.



Only she never regrets torturing and killing Joel whatsoever. She never gets flashbacks of it, never has nightmares about cruelly beating to a pulp an old man that just saved her life. There's nothing there.

When she finds out Ellie killed her friends because of her actions, she doesn't self reflect, doesn't regret anything, on the contrary she acts all surprised that Ellie dared to retaliate after saint Abby spared her life. So in her mind she was completely in the right killing Joel like that.

Then she proceeds to brutalise Ellie and almost kills a pregnant girl, stopping only because she didn't want to look bad before Lev, like a hypocrite she is. If it hadn't been for him she would have gladly killed them both and then continue with being a goody two shoes friend of Lev.

If Druckmann wanted Abbie to have a redemption arc he failed miserably on that front.
I have news for you, Joel was a ruthless killer.

Just because someone thinks they're right doesn't mean they aren't wrong.

Lev snapped Abby out of her rage, something fairly common in movies, tv, etc. Lev "said" this is wrong don't kill her.

Abby's entire arc was helping the enemy, who were essentially kids I guess since they keep referring to them that way. That's the way she found peace, because just as Ellie finally saw at the end, revenge doesn't heal you.

Btw the same thing happened to Joel, who found "salvation" in a child he became attached to and had to save.
 

tsumake

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I haven’t played TLOU, but I understand why people may be upset. I couldn’t get into God of War 2018 because whoever that guy was, it wasn’t Kratos. I quite enjoy the entire series and a significant part of that enjoyment is Kratos. After all the atrocities he committed, I don’t really buy Kratos settling down and raising another family. The mechanics and design are great so I’ll eventually revisit the game but Dad of War just doesn’t sit well for me.
 

NYR

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Thanks.

But still find this difference in writing styles, themes and characters between the two games very strange, almost as if they were written by different people.
I'd argue that Druckmann gets a lot of credit for TLOU and in reality, the story was likely fleshed out with multiple opinions, including that of Straley.

Totally reminiscent of Game Of Thrones - when the writers had Martin's books, they were incredibly well written and when the material left, the show got really weak. Maybe all this shows is Druckmann needs to lose the ego and get more help on writing from people familiar with gaming narratives and journeys instead of Hollywood writers.

I didn't hate the game (It still haunts me, I can't stop thinking about it which to me, makes it a great story) but will admit there are some major issues.
 
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NYR

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I haven’t played TLOU, but I understand why people may be upset. I couldn’t get into God of War 2018 because whoever that guy was, it wasn’t Kratos. I quite enjoy the entire series and a significant part of that enjoyment is Kratos. After all the atrocities he committed, I don’t really buy Kratos settling down and raising another family. The mechanics and design are great so I’ll eventually revisit the game but Dad of War just doesn’t sit well for me.
Yikes. Kratos was a numbskull in the other games, he is actually quite fleshed out in the new game and it even dives into his shitty past. You are missing out on skipping that one.
 

trapanesenyc

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I have news for you, Joel was a ruthless killer.

Just because someone thinks they're right doesn't mean they aren't wrong.

Lev snapped Abby out of her rage, something fairly common in movies, tv, etc. Lev "said" this is wrong don't kill her.

Abby's entire arc was helping the enemy, who were essentially kids I guess since they keep referring to them that way. That's the way she found peace, because just as Ellie finally saw at the end, revenge doesn't heal you.

Btw the same thing happened to Joel, who found "salvation" in a child he became attached to and had to save.
People have a hard time separating hero from protagonist. They keep thinking of Joel as the hero because he was the protagonist of the first game, but to everyone else he was a ruthless killer and admitted to being cruel himself in the past in order to survive.
 
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Johnny Silver

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I'd argue that Druckmann gets a lot of credit for TLOU and in reality, the story was likely fleshed out with multiple opinions, including that of Straley.

Totally reminiscent of Game Of Thrones - when the writers had Martin's books, they were incredibly well written and when the material left, the show got really weak. Maybe all this shows is Druckmann needs to lose the ego and get more help on writing from people familiar with gaming narratives and journeys instead of Hollywood writers.

I didn't hate the game (It still haunts me, I can't stop thinking about it which to me, makes it a great story) but will admit there are some major issues.
It's my opinion that Druckmann definitely had feedback from other writers(including Amy), who stopped him from inserting stupidity into the first TLOU.
 
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eyesabitdull

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Yawn at all the negativity ITT.

Ghost of Tsushima couldn't come out any faster so we all have something new to be negative Nancy's over.

Can't wait to hear how unrealistic a fox showing where you may find treasure is because the main characters are "grounded in reality" in a video game.

It's gonna be so. Much. Fun.
 

tsumake

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Yikes. Kratos was a numbskull in the other games, he is actually quite fleshed out in the new game and it even dives into his shitty past. You are missing out on skipping that one.
He was single minded and was used because of that. But the series did a good job of exploring the consequences of that (Chains of Olympus comes to mind).
 

Lunk

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I get why its a disaster for some, I think it was always the risk.
With respect to anyone who might disagree with this, I think the majority of non-troll, non-toxic haters who bash the game it has to do with Joel's death, the shock of it and the execution of it. Also the denial.

I really do think there's a percentage of TLOU's crowd that saw Joel as this "serial protagonist" who was going to be the front figure of a long-spanning series, and those people were simply wrong IMO. After TLOU's final 5 minutes Joel loses his protagonist status for good. TLOU2 could have been a story about how Ellie struggled to come to terms with it, but that is so hard to turn into a full game epic or a travelogue plot like the first game. It was bound to be really contrived if they did that. So instead what they locked on was the idea that he would die, and Ellie would have to posthumously reconcile her feelings while also realizing she cared about him and wanted her revenge. And out of that they developed a new focal character whose purpose was to demonstrate that when you take violence out of context it's always grim and unjustified, but by empathizing you may be able to understand how it came to that point, so they were balancing shock with realization.

I think they didn't screw up the "realization" part but they didn't land it where it should have landed. At the end of the game Abby's way of hunting down Joel and ganging him up defenselessly in front of her group and almost never dwelling on the way she took that man out it doesn't sit right with me how she's built up as a sympathetic character who loses her friends and finds redemption in taking care of a new group. To me the part when she hangs out with Lev is where the game was potentially forming a new likeable protagonist... if Abby was NOT Joel's killer, but they fumbled the part of the story where Abby is both a ruthless killer who took revenge with a big-sister type that takes care of a boy. When that doesn't resonate the game's goal falls flat, and all you have left is Ellie's price of revenge that's as predictable as its premise and leaves you with what felt like less of a sequel than not having a sequel would've.

I uninstalled TLOU2 after beating it, and if all GameStops hadn't closed in my country I would go down and sell both games because I'm not able to play the first game again knowing how it ends. I still don't put Joel on a pedestal but I felt like their journey, including his death and reflection upon it, could have landed somewhere meaningful, but at the end of the day as a series the story just got too bleak and the depressive undercurrent, which was always there by the way, ends up superseding the franchise as a whole.
 

BluRayHiDef

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The Last of Us Part II is the most poignant and revolutionary game in terms of storytelling ever made. Via subtlety, it tactfully includes multiple contemporary themes in its story, such as homosexuality, transgenderism, and racial diversity - and it brilliantly weaves them into a seemingly traditional tale of revenge that winds up being told in a surprisingly novel fashion. It's bold and daring and therefore incites division. However, I find myself on the side of the dividing line that favors it.

If there is a downside, however, it's the game's failure to provide players with agency in regard to certain actions that the protagonists make; a narrative with multiple outcomes would have enabled Naughty Dog to be bold and daring while still appeasing the entirety of the franchise's fan base.
 

Terenty

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I have news for you, Joel was a ruthless killer.
Yeah, he did some bad things to survive, but he wasn't a child killer like Abby's father and didn't kill and torture people for pleasure like Abby. So for all of his ruthlessness he is still a better person than either of them.
Abby's entire arc was helping the enemy, who were essentially kids I guess since they keep referring to them that way. That's the way she found peace, because just as Ellie finally saw at the end, revenge doesn't heal you.
I think everybody understands the themes of the game, they are quite obvious, what we are discussing here is the execution of said themes through character development and believable writing, which this game lacks and which i pointed out in my previous post.
 

bargeparty

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Yeah, he did some bad things to survive, but he wasn't a child killer like Abby's father and didn't kill and torture people for pleasure like Abby. So for all of his ruthlessness he is still a better person than either of them.

I think everybody understands the themes of the game, they are quite obvious, what we are discussing here is the execution of said themes through character development and believable writing, which this game lacks and which i pointed out in my previous post.
If you say so.
 

tsumake

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The Last of Us Part II is the most poignant and revolutionary game in terms of storytelling ever made. Via subtlety, it tactfully includes multiple contemporary themes in its story, such as homosexuality, transgenderism, and racial diversity - and it brilliantly weaves them into a seemingly traditional tale of revenge that winds up being told in a surprisingly novel fashion. It's bold and daring and therefore incites division. However, I find myself on the side of the dividing line that favors it.

If there is a downside, however, it's the game's failure to provide players with agency in regard to certain actions that the protagonists make; a narrative with multiple outcomes would have enabled Naughty Dog to be bold and daring while still appeasing the entirety of the franchise's fan base.
You sir have a bright career in games journalism.
 
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BluRayHiDef

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My issue with Joel rescuing Ellie from the Fireflies' hospital is that I'm not sure whether he truly did so for Ellie or did so for himself. Was his concern solely or at least mainly Ellie's well being or was his concern to retain Ellie because she filled the void and pain of his daughter's death? Did he really think that it was immoral to sacrifice Ellie for the sake of humanity (i.e. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few)? Or did he agree with the idea that to do so was moral but cared about his emotional needs more than the possibility of saving humanity?
 
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NYR

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Yeah, he did some bad things to survive, but he wasn't a child killer like Abby's father and didn't kill and torture people for pleasure like Abby. So for all of his ruthlessness he is still a better person than either of them.
I wouldn’t bet on that. His brother and only family member walked away from him in search of hope and returning the world to its old state via the Fireflies. Joel was fine doing what he had to to survive, Tommy wasn’t:

Joel - “This is how you repay me?” “For all those goddamn years I took care of us”

Tommy - “took care thats what you call it?” “I got nothing but nightmares from those years”

It’s even stated Tommy got tired of doing the evil shit they were doing to stay alive. Keep in mind, the original backstory of Abby was Tommy and Joel attack and kill a caravan of survivors to steal their shit and kill Abby’s parents. It wasn’t changed because it was a “oh, well this would make Joel too evil” - it was that it was too generic.

Joel isn’t a good guy. He’s a bad guy who did good things in the time we spent with his family in the game and even then, that major good thing at the end is morally questionable. His arc is a redemption arc but it doesn’t erase his past. In my mind, his story is complete - he couldn’t save his daughter but he saved Ellie.
 
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NYR

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My issue with Joel rescuing Ellie from the Fireflies' hospital is that I'm not sure whether he truly did so for Ellie or did so for himself.
It was selfish and about himself, absolutely. The entire story is about a redemption of saving his “daughter”.

Ellie was ready to give her life for this, for her life to mean something. Joel couldn’t handle the loss again and wanted to save Ellie in a way he was unable to save Sarah. It’s doesn’t make him a bad guy, but he made the decision for himself and what he thought was best for Ellie, not that it was the best decision for the world or even for Ellie, it’s really makes the ending of the first game is so good!
 
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BluRayHiDef

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It was selfish and about himself, absolutely. The entire story is about a redemption of saving his “daughter”.

Ellie was ready to give her life for this, for her life to mean something. Joel couldn’t handle the loss again and wanted to save Ellie in a way he was unable to save Sarah. It’s doesn’t make him a bad guy, but he made the decision for himself and what he thought was best for Ellie, not that it was the best decision for the world or even for Ellie, it’s really makes the ending of the first game is so good!
So, from a moral perspective, would you say that the Fireflies were morally justified in attempting to sacrifice Ellie?
 

NYR

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So, from a moral perspective, would you say that the Fireflies were morally justified in attempting to sacrifice Ellie?
Depends on how you feel about “the means justify the end”. In that sense, yes, they would be justified but in reality, their act is not pure either, it’s out of desperation.

The great thing is we will never know. I do know that “absolute power corrupts” though, and in that sense, I personally don’t think it would go perfect. Even if they were morally justified and developed a vaccine, I assume they would start with the goal to help everyone but it could easily transform into a power vacuum and the vaccine becomes a bargaining chip for them to gain power.

Doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t Joel’s call to make and I don’t think the Fireflies would abandon their sole purpose to exist quite so easily, there would be a battle. The fact the fireflies re-convene at the end of the second game makes me believe they would end up following through and it wouldn’t make the fireflies more evil.
 
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bender

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I usually like them but I couldn’t make this through this video. I’m not a fan of the condescending “we understood the game” narrative whenever a controversial piece of media comes out. As if the people who didn’t like it are morons who didn’t get it. No that’s a false narrative. Plenty of people understood what they were doing and thought it was shit. No need to bring in some cognitive snobbery to justify your like of a game.
100%. It seems like a lot of the condescending attitude comes from people with this weird need to elevate the medium. The strength of Naughty Dog's cinematic games has never been narrative as they are largely also-ran but instead creating like-able or memorable cast of characters and nailing voice casting and written dialog. TLOU2 fails to capitalize on those strengths which in turn makes the weaknesses in the narrative and how it is presented stick out.
 

Terenty

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It’s even stated Tommy got tired of doing the evil shit they were doing to stay alive. Keep in mind, the original backstory of Abby was Tommy and Joel attack and kill a caravan of survivors to steal their shit and kill Abby’s parents. It wasn’t changed because it was a “oh, well this would make Joel too evil” - it was that it was too generic.
Yeah, they should have gone with this idea then, instead of trying to make us symphatise with an amoral doctor and his psycho daughter.
 

bender

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Yeah, they should have gone with this idea then, instead of trying to make us symphatise with an amoral doctor and his psycho daughter.
They'd lose the "power" of the thrice used hallway to the operating room scene though :p
 
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Someone asked whether Joel saved Ellie because he believed the needs of the many didn't outweigh the needs of the few or if it was because he needed her cuz she fill the void inside I can tell you how I felt when I was playing that section the first time I was pissed and I was ready to kill anyone who got in my way in my quest to get her it wasn't until I began arguing about the game online and it's sequel that I even realized you don't need to kill everyone in the room that that was an optional thing to do because I never once stopped and thought maybe I shouldn't do this I was 100% ready to murder them all. If Neil Druckman wanted to tap into that idea of hate and rage of making me feel what he felt witnessing a lynching he succeeded.
 

Raven117

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The Last of Us Part II is the most poignant and revolutionary game in terms of storytelling ever made. Via subtlety, it tactfully includes multiple contemporary themes in its story, such as homosexuality, transgenderism, and racial diversity - and it brilliantly weaves them into a seemingly traditional tale of revenge that winds up being told in a surprisingly novel fashion. It's bold and daring and therefore incites division. However, I find myself on the side of the dividing line that favors it.

If there is a downside, however, it's the game's failure to provide players with agency in regard to certain actions that the protagonists make; a narrative with multiple outcomes would have enabled Naughty Dog to be bold and daring while still appeasing the entirety of the franchise's fan base.
I don’t know about how tactful “all”’of it was. Lev’s status seemed bolted on to push the plot forward. Ellie seemed much more realized and organic.

but that’s just me. Writers need characters to drive the plot, so not a huge deal One way or another.

In the end, I do think it comes down to two camps. Whether One thought that the payoff of Joel’s death was worth what we got in the place of such a strong character. Some would say the revenge story coupled with its story telling structure (and making you sit with Joel’s death and the anger at it) is worth it. Others would say that Joel’s death was wasted as what replaced it was not as emotionally strong as the TLoU.

what TLoU has going for it (emotional punch) was traded with narrative complexity tlou2.
Both are done with quite a bit of skill and polish for a video game. It’s something to admire. Even if you didn’t like or the Other.
 
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PanzerAzel

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It's very different to empathize with someone you already hate than with someone you don't. Since it's a game, this it's imposed on you, even if you never sympathize with Abby, you are forced to empathize with her by playing as her. Again, this it's not done much in other mediums because you have no way of forcing the spectator to interact with the narrative but in games you become the character for a while, meaning that all the character woes are by proxy experienced directly by you.
Here's where you and I fundamentally disagree.

You cannot impose empathy on a person, you can't force it. If you do, it's not genuine empathy. People need to open themselves up to empathize with another individual, it is as much a state of vulnerability to them as it involves the other person of whom they're trying to relate to. All you're doing by having people playing as Abby is destroying any enjoyment of the game. And if you say, "well, that's the game's point.....it makes you confront whether you're willing to lower your biases to empathize or not".....there's no profound message in that. It again, highlights a basic truism of human nature and psychology that's been known for a very long time. What is the game trying to prove? People don't care to empathize with something they hate.

News at 11.
 

PanzerAzel

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Having had some time to now digest TLoU II, my main problem I've identified with it is that the original was predominantly a character-driven experience, whereas TLoU II is much more thematically-driven that liberally creates and destroys characters, new and old alike, before they really have an opportunity for development for what ultimately amounts to an incredibly trite and nihilistic message that in the end doesn't convey anything all that meaningful.

The themes of the first game (loss, love) were conveyed through the characters and their journey, and the difference here is that the themes now feel to come at their expense. Characters aren’t developed nor grow towards a thematic goal in TLoU II as I see it, they’re essentially shallow pawns inevitably thrown into a meat grinder at its convenience, used to manipulate the audience through transparent plot contrivances and superficial window dressings until they are (pet the doggy, flirt with your boyfriend, smoke weed with your girlfriend, etc.) and shock value tactics (whoops, you killed a pregnant girl, Joel's/Jesse’s death) to grant plot impetus and to be able to eventually make a statement that ”Your enemies are people too!" or, ”Revenge is BAD!". No eventual thematic message excuses the atrocious treatment and manipulative nature of the characterization in order of its conveyance. The game downright exploits previous characters and uses them as nothing but fodder to hammer such vapid messages and themes home, which, in my opinion, is incredibly disrespectful, and leads me to understand why so many are so upset. The game sacrifices what it built for no real worthwhile payoff.

It honestly feels to me like the creators approached TLoU II fundamentally failing to understand what made the original so beloved, alongside amateurish writing and execution which didn't help. The shift from predominantly focusing on characterization in exemplification of themes from the first game to the shallow exploitation and manipulation of characterization to do so in the second gutted and cheapened the very soul of the experience that was TLoU, and as such, left it largely as nothing but an empty shell to convey a message of misery and nihilism that people are failing to see a point in. It's little wonder why.
 
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vpance

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Having had some time to now digest TLoU II, my main problem I've identified with it is that the original was predominantly a character-driven experience, whereas TLoU II is much more thematically-driven that liberally creates and destroys characters, new and old alike, before they really have an opportunity for development for what ultimately amounts to an incredibly trite and nihilistic message that in the end doesn't convey anything all that meaningful.

The themes of the first game (loss, love) were conveyed through the characters and their journey, and the difference here is that the themes now feel to come at their expense. Characters aren’t developed nor grow towards a thematic goal in TLoU II as I see it, they’re essentially shallow pawns inevitably thrown into a meat grinder at its convenience, used to manipulate the audience through transparent plot contrivances and superficial window dressings until they are (pet the doggy, flirt with your boyfriend, smoke weed with your girlfriend, etc.) and shock value tactics (whoops, you killed a pregnant girl, Joel's/Jesse’s death) to grant plot impetus and to be able to eventually make a statement that ”Your enemies are people too!" or, ”Revenge is BAD!". No eventual thematic message excuses the atrocious treatment and manipulative nature of the characterization in order of its conveyance. The game downright exploits previous characters and uses them as nothing but fodder to hammer such vapid messages and themes home, which, in my opinion, is incredibly disrespectful, and leads me to understand why so many are so upset. The game sacrifices what it built for no real worthwhile payoff.

It honestly feels to me like the creators approached TLoU II fundamentally failing to understand what made the original so beloved, alongside amateurish writing and execution which didn't help. The shift from predominantly focusing on characterization in exemplification of themes from the first game to the shallow exploitation and manipulation of characterization to do so in the second gutted and cheapened the very soul of the experience that was TLoU, and as such, left it largely as nothing but an empty shell to convey a message of misery and nihilism that people are failing to see a point in. It's little wonder why.
Did you watch Yongyea’s review? It touched on precisely the same points. The game was playing puppet master in an extremely overt way. All subtlety went out the window - a total 180 compared to the original.
 
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Keihart

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Here's where you and I fundamentally disagree.

You cannot impose empathy on a person, you can't force it. If you do, it's not genuine empathy. People need to open themselves up to empathize with another individual, it is as much a state of vulnerability to them as it involves the other person of whom they're trying to relate to. All you're doing by having people playing as Abby is destroying any enjoyment of the game. And if you say, "well, that's the game's point.....it makes you confront whether you're willing to lower your biases to empathize or not".....there's no profound message in that. It again, highlights a basic truism of human nature and psychology that's been known for a very long time. What is the game trying to prove? People don't care to empathize with something they hate.

News at 11.
While you might be right that SOME people might not be able to, there are lots of people that are, and maybe even some that weren't before.
There are some examples of it here in the OT even..
In the end, it's not forced on you to sympathize(agree with someone else) as i said before, but empathizing (punting yourself in someone elses shoes), this in itself it's powerful or has value because you can't do it whe you hate someone sometimes, the games forces you to take that step. You are no required to like Abby but simply understand her, also the lenght of the campaing it's taylored to that, you are given time to settle your emotions and let go.

Also, in relation to your next post, as i see it, the first game it's more of a comedy and the sequel a tragedy.
Also both games follow western tropes and the revenge tale it's very much in line with that.
 
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Madflavor

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I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say that GF Reviews of the TLOU2, is one of the more pretentious full of shit reviews I've seen of this game. The whole thing stinks of "Look at us. WE understood it and the people who disliked it didn't." Don't blame us for seeing how transparent ND were with this game, and all the bag of tricks they were obviously trying to use to make us give a shit about Abby. On top of that it's an overly long, poorly paced and weirdly structured narrative, that doesn't have the same charm or likeable cast as the first game did.
 

DaleinCalgary

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That was sweet! I wasn't planning on buying it because I was so bored playing the first one but now I defiantly don't need to buy it.
 

DForce

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Removed his comment because he took her comments out of context.

Even though we have been shown irrefutable proof that Abby is the protagonist of her own story all we can say is as grief-stricken gamers is still

Dave Chappelle " bitch I'll never forgive you for this."

Herein lies a controversial yet innovative experiment to expose how the identity of the self relates to the identity of the other and the results have varied from person to person because there is no difficulty setting in the game or in life to make forgiving someone easier.
She's specially talking about players who have trouble forgiving Abby because there's no difficulty setting to make it easier.

Girlfriend Reviews 5:25 to me that sentence says that you think players are too mad to realize the moral of the story.
This is just an example of how a person is making a huge rant out of something she never said.
 
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Kadayi

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One of my favorite videos on the game thus far. The think pieces, be they positive or negative, will be coming for years to come. We've never really had a game quite like this. And it came out in an already contentious time so provocative doesn't even begin to describe it.
ME3 would like a word.

Honestly. The biggest disappointment for me, isn't the flawed narrative (and it most certainly is flawed) it's the abject failure once again of any of the professional critics out there to even really acknowledge that the execution of the story-line has problems to the extent of just blithely giving it absurdly high scores when it is ostensibly a story driven game when all is said and done. Whilst critics continue to give gold stars to mediocrity, mediocrity is all we will continue to get as games. No amount of lush environment design or stunning vistas makes up for the poor pacing and story line mismanagement that is TLOU2.
 
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bargeparty

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Do you guys write essays like this for any other form of media?

If you don't like a movie or can't relate to the characters do you go in Reddit and say the same things over and over?

Is it just games?
 

tsumake

Member
Dec 3, 2019
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Do you guys write essays like this for any other form of media?

If you don't like a movie or can't relate to the characters do you go in Reddit and say the same things over and over?

Is it just games?
What did you think of the game?
 

Kadayi

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For all the "Schindlers List" and "Neil killed my dad" videos out there I think this is a nice and balanced perspective of why TLOU2 took brave and commendable story telling challenges which respect the challenges the original game took on - and addresses why its not a home run for some, but for others it is such a game worth praise

I get why its a disaster for some, I think it was always the risk. The huge amount of discourse on the story is like nothing I've seen in recent memory. I'll never accuse Druckmann of not being ballsy in his story telling
It's fine up to the 8 minute mark, where it then descends into basically being a litany of 'if you hated the ending then you're probably either dumb or a bigot' with a few cherry picked 0 ratings from Metacritic user reviews highlighted (out of over 100k ) that well known bastion of sound games criticism as proof positive that, that surely has to be the case. I particularly liked that she validates her opinion by stating that her father died as if somehow the loss of a parent is something notable, versus an inevitability of life ( I don't get the sense he was brutally murdered in front of her with a Golf Club either, so it seemed a bizarre aside).

The game is contentious because its narrative did not work for a large tract of the games fan-base. Occams razor alone discounts the 'Bigots & thickies' narrative she pushes.
 
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Sub_Level

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ME3 would like a word.
Unlike Mass Effect 3 , half (maybe more, maybe less) of the TLOU players actually like TLOU2's storytelling. There is no consensus, as much as the critics like to pretend there is.

I would say its more of a Metal Gear Solid 2 situation where the fanbase is mixed on whether it was drivel, a masterpiece, or as you say just plain mediocrity. Neil even admitted MGS2 was one of the inspirations for the game, and even though both strive for totally different narrative goals, the similarities are quite evident.
 
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Kadayi

Probable Replicant & GIF PIMP
Oct 10, 2012
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Unlike Mass Effect 3 , half (maybe more, maybe less) of the TLOU players actually like TLOU2's storytelling. There is no consensus, as much as the critics like to pretend there is.
It's not about the fans, it's about the reviewers. The exact percentage of which fans liked it is not the issue. The issue is about the failure of games media to reflect audience expectation. Certainly the games getting talked about a lot, but not for the right reasons , and that the IGNs and GameInformers of this world don't reflect that in any way is dare one say...problematic in the truest sense of the word.
 
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It's not about the fans, it's about the reviewers. The exact percentage of which fans liked it is not the issue. The issue is about the failure of games media to reflect audience expectation. Certainly the games getting talked about a lot, but not for the right reasons , and that the IGNs and GameInformers of this world don't reflect that in any way is dare one say...problematic in the truest sense of the word.
Can't tell if a post like this is serious. I've never found the majority of critics to be especially trustworthy sources but it's more than obvious why this game earned glowing scores. Places like Kotaku and Polygon had you covered on being disappointed, anyways.
 

Kadayi

Probable Replicant & GIF PIMP
Oct 10, 2012
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Can't tell if a post like this is serious. I've never found the majority of critics to be especially trustworthy sources but it's more than obvious why this game earned glowing scores. Places like Kotaku and Polygon had you covered on being disappointed, anyways.

112 reviews 94%

104 positive

8 mixed

0 Negative

Neither Polygon or Kotaku even feature
 

tsumake

Member
Dec 3, 2019
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Unlike Mass Effect 3 , half (maybe more, maybe less) of the TLOU players actually like TLOU2's storytelling. There is no consensus, as much as the critics like to pretend there is.

I would say its more of a Metal Gear Solid 2 situation where the fanbase is mixed on whether it was drivel, a masterpiece, or as you say just plain mediocrity. Neil even admitted MGS2 was one of the inspirations for the game, and even though both strive for totally different narrative goals, the similarities are quite evident.
Even though there was a bait and switch in MGS2, I don’t recall there being as strong a response to it as TLOU2.

It sounds more and more like a videogame equivalent of The Last Jedi: a highly anticipated sequel that really pisses off fans, is praised by mainstream critics, and makes a lot of money (which the game will probably do). TLJ made over a billion at the box office due to initial fan momentum, but fans took vengeance on “Solo.” If the analogy is sound, then perhaps ND’s next game might be in trouble.
 
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