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[WanderingWind]

They aren´t scared, but they want more sales than what a hardcore RPG can make. I´m pretty sure that a fully PC exclusive hardcore RPG can sell well over 2 million, but they want games that sell 10 million, and the PC alone can´t offer such sales. And because of that, compromises has to be done. And since one the strength with the PC is that is so flexible when it comes to game, it´s the platform that has to make most compromises in multiformat titles.

Again, I really don't understand this mindset. For Mass Effect, sure. It's basically Star Wars without the cheese. But when talking about a game called Dragon Age, you have to realize that a certain segment of gamers won't even take a look at the back of the box. So instead of completely shutting out the segment of gamer who would revel in a hardcore RPG (of which Dragon Age 1 was only shades of) they'd rather try to appease the type of gamer who won't give a crap either way.

It's the same mindset that drove the Marilyn Manson-tainted trailers from the original game, too. And those were hilariously out of touch also.

 

[Aurarian]

Heh, me and a friend were laughing at this. It's like they're intentionally trying to drive it into the ground. I'm still in the wait and see camp, but it's not looking good.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Unfortunately, the net result of doing this would be even more console-focused games. It is a ridiculous feedback loop.

Not if you just buy another PC game instead.

 

[water_wendi]

Again, I really don't understand this mindset. For Mass Effect, sure. It's basically Star Wars without the cheese. But when talking about a game called Dragon Age, you have to realize that a certain segment of gamers won't even take a look at the back of the box. So instead of completely shutting out the segment of gamer who would revel in a hardcore RPG (of which Dragon Age 1 was only shades of) they'd rather try to appease the type of gamer who won't give a crap either way.

The suits that control the industry seem to think that a game should appeal to everyone. This is a fatal flaw because not everyone likes every genre. If the gaming execs controlled the movie business we would see a movie like Doubt try to cater to the Transformers crowd. Doing something like that would alienate fans of one or the other (or both) and accomplish the opposite of the intended effect. The difference in sales between ME1 and ME2 are a good example of this.

 

[CecilRousso]

Again, I really don't understand this mindset. For Mass Effect, sure. It's basically Star Wars without the cheese. But when talking about a game called Dragon Age, you have to realize that a certain segment of gamers won't even take a look at the back of the box. So instead of completely shutting out the segment of gamer who would revel in a hardcore RPG (of which Dragon Age 1 was only shades of) they'd rather try to appease the type of gamer who won't give a crap either way.

It's the same mindset that drove the Marilyn Manson-tainted trailers from the original game, too. And those were hilariously out of touch also.

They aren't anywhere close to 10 million and compromises only hurt their hardcore fanbase in the long run. In fact they are going the opposite direction seeing as how ME2 failed to outsell ME and I'm guessing DA2 is not going to light the sales charts on fire, either.

Just for the record, I also think they are doing it the wrong way, but it seems like they are determined to pursue this. I don´t expect any more favours for the PC platform from them, except when it comes to MMO´s.

 

[Littleberu]

Is this true?

I'm not sure ; Mass Effect 2 had sold 1.6 millions as of March 2010.

Mass Effect 1 had sold 1.6 millions as of April 2008.

Of course, Mass Effect 1 has probably sold more now than Mass Effect 2. But Mass Effect 2 sold more than 500 000 copies on the first day. I think that's a more important factor right now ; the franchise sells, and sells good.

 

[dionysus]

The suits that control the industry seem to think that a game should appeal to everyone. This is a fatal flaw because not everyone likes every genre. If the gaming execs controlled the movie business we would see a movie like Doubt try to cater to the Transformers crowd. Doing something like that would alienate fans of one or the other (or both) and accomplish the opposite of the intended effect. The difference in sales between ME1 and ME2 are a good example of this.

This is only happening at the major publishers, who by and large are failing. The PC platform at least has an abundance of publishers who are catering to a niche and happy to do it. The blockbuster mentality at the major publishers is so far only working for one company, Activision, and I don't know how long they can keep it up.

 

[Speculator]

I'm not sure ; Mass Effect 2 had sold 1.6 millions as of May 2010.

Mass Effect 1 had sold 1.6 millions as of April 2008.

Of course, Mass Effect 1 has probably sold more now than Mass Effect 2. But Mass Effect 2 sold more than 500 000 copies on the first day. I think that's a more important factor right now ; the franchise sells, and sells good.

Correction, its 1.6million as of March not May

 

[Littleberu]

Correction, its 1.6million as of March not May

Yeah sorry I fixed it.

 

[Dennis]

They aren´t scared, but they want more sales than what a hardcore RPG can make. I´m pretty sure that a fully PC exclusive hardcore RPG can sell well over 2 million, but they want games that sell 10 million, and the PC alone can´t offer such sales. And because of that, compromises has to be done. And since one the strength with the PC is that is so flexible when it comes to game, it´s the platform that has to make most compromises in multiformat titles.

Then they are stupid. DA is never going to be a 10 million/game seller. Never.

They would be better off expanding the audience for the RPGs their studio makes by giving gamers some hardcore RPGs. Betting only on the Mass Effect kind of cinematic softcore games seems shortsighted to me.

DA sold better than ME. So why dumb DA down to the level of ME? It makes no goddamn sense.

 

[Philthy]

DA sold better than ME. So why dumb DA down to the level of ME? It makes no goddamn sense.

Poor management.

 

[Gully State]

All this talk about DA2 has made me want to go out and buy more DLC for DA1. I'm about 20 hours into my first playthrough of this game, which is surprising because it doesn't feel like I've progressed through into the middle of the game. How much does awakenings and the rest of the DLC bring to the table?

 

[Dennis]

Poor management.

I honestly just don't understand. The great sales on both console and PC (better than ME!)would indicate to a rational person that the audience for more hardcore traditional RPGs are there.

Why not bet on two horses? The hardcore DA and the "cinematic" RPG-lite ME franchises.

 

[Littleberu]

DA sold better than ME. So why dumb DA down to the level of ME? It makes no goddamn sense.

That doesn't explain why DA sold better than ME. Also, where did you get that Dragon Age indeed sold better than Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I love this "just plug in an HDMI cable" reasoning here. Does everyone here believe that people have their computers that close to their home theater setups? :lol

I have a friend who is still a PC gamer. It's funny listening to his bitching about computer problems. It reminds me of all the time I wasted messing with my PC instead of gaming. Most people do not want to bother which is why console games sell so much more, even with the inferior controls =P I would also like to point out how video card manufacturer have driven the platform into the ground with all their bullshit: confusing names, wasted features, and ridiculous pricing.

Maybe things are different now. Considering, the last time I tried to seriously put a gaming PC together was a few years ago. But I doubt it since most held the same exact opinions back then.

Where you have your PC is your problem. The fact remains that you can connect it to your TV just as easily as a console. If distance is a problem, you can invest in an extremely long HDMI cable. They aren't that expensive.

 

[water_wendi]

DA sold better than ME. So why dumb DA down to the level of ME? It makes no goddamn sense.

But they didnt know that going into the development of DA2 imo. Bioware had like half a year before DA hit shelves and they probably thought the game was going to bomb so they start working on DA2 with all the new glorious changes. This is just how i see things working out at least.

 

[Dennis]

That doesn't explain why DA sold better than ME. Also, where did you get that Dragon Age indeed sold better than Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2?

Bioware said so themselves. I remember that distinctly.

 

[Littleberu]

Bioware said so themselves. I remember that distinctly.

If you're thinking of that time when they mentioned it was their most "globally successful” franchise, that's including the DLC and the Expansion pack. They mean "profitable", not "copies sold". They never mention sales, anyway.

 

[Morbid Angel]

If you're thinking of that time when they mentioned it was their most "globally successful” franchise, that's including the DLC and the Expansion pack. They mean "profitable", not "copies sold". They never mention sales, anyway.

It doesn't include the expansion.

http://investor.ea.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=443674

EDMONTON, Canada, Feb 08, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Leading video game developer BioWare(TM), a division of Electronic Arts Inc. (NASDAQ: ERTS), announced today that Dragon Age(TM): Origins has sold-in over 3.2 million* units worldwide.

 

[Wiktor]

That doesn't explain why DA sold better than ME. Also, where did you get that Dragon Age indeed sold better than Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2?

We know Dragon Age: Origins sold over 3,2 mln copies by february this year.

Going by your numbers it's a lot bigger and faster seller than either ME

 

[gdt]

Do we have WW numbers for ME/ME2?

 

[tokkun]

DA sold better than ME. So why dumb DA down to the level of ME? It makes no goddamn sense.

There are many factors that could account for the difference in sales between two games. One is fantasy, the other is sci-fi. One is a tactical strategy game, the other is a shooter. One was released during the holiday season, the other was released afterward. One of them released on 3 platforms, the other released on 2. One of them was an original IP, the other was a sequel. One had a $40 expansion pack, the other has only had small DLC released.

If you want to talk about rationality, please explain how it is rational to look at those differences and conclude that the primary reason that Dragon Age has been more successful than Mass Effect is because of it is less "dumbed down"?

 

[Dennis]

There are many factors that could account for the difference in sales between two games. One is fantasy, the other is sci-fi. One is a tactical strategy game, the other is a shooter. One was released during the holiday season, the other was released afterward. One of them released on 3 platforms, the other released on 2. One of them was an original IP, the other was a sequel. One had a $40 expansion pack, the other has only had small DLC released.

If you want to talk about rationality, please explain how it is rational to look at those differences and conclude that the primary reason that Dragon Age has been more successful than Mass Effect is because of it is less "dumbed down"?

Occams Razor.

Besides, you throwing any number of random things doen't explain why Bioware doesn't reach the simplest possible conclusion: That consumers prefer hardcore DA to softcore ME. So why change DA?

How is it rational to guess, when you KNOW hardcore DA sold better than softcore ME?

 

[Kuraudo]

Dragon Age had a bigger potential audience, not really surprising it's more successful.

 

[truly101]

I'll tell you the reason I don't PC game. Laziness! My tower is 7 years old and was gimped to begin with and I really can't be bothered to upgrade it even though changing out memory and video cards is not particularly hard. I have BGII and have not really played it, and I'd like to give the witcher a try, I think my specs are barely good enough to run it.

I'm also comfortable and satisfied with the gaming experience on consoles and don't feel the need to game on the PC. In fact other than the witcher and BGII, there's not much I'd care to play on PC that I don't already get on consoles.

Still, as I've said before, there is no need to gimp the PC version of this game and I'm not sure I like where this sequel is going. To me, it sounds like it would be a better DA spinoff rather than a proper sequel. March will be...interesting, if its not pushed back.

 

[Dennis]

Dragon Age had a bigger potential audience, not really surprising it's more successful.

How so?

The whole fucking gaming world seems to think hardcore RPGs are dead, so how would anybody figure that DA would sell better than ME considering the slobbering gaming media has declared softcore ME to be the future of RPGs.

Has anyone in the gaming media stopped to reflect on the fact that the insanely hyped ME series sell less than old-fashioned DA?

 

[Nirolak]

On the note of sales.

VG247: Dragon Age has been a more successful product for you than Mass Effect. Why do you think that is?

Greg Zeschuk: Well, Mass Effect 1 is probably at a similar level, maybe even higher, than Dragon Age. It got a head start. I think it was a Christmas game versus a non-Christmas game. Second would be that there’s one platform short on Mass Effect.

It’s interesting when you look at it now. For example, Mass Effect 2 is still a top ten seller in North America. It’s still doing really, really well from the beginning of the year to now. I think over time, you’ll see it’ll probably even out. I don’t worry too much about the sales numbers of what’s more or less successful as much as the idea that each game keeps getting higher and higher quality.

I think they’ll find their fans. Mass continues to sell really well, so it’ll probably catch up and pass. You never know.

VG247: STWOR is said to be one of the highest budget titles ever made by EA, and, obviously it’s a Star Wars game too. Are you feeling pressure from both EA and the fans to get it right?

Greg Zeschuk: We have always worked under a lot of pressure.

We made games such as Baldur’s Gate early in our career, which is still one of our biggest-sellers having sold 5 million copies, maybe more than that. When you have made a title like that you’re judged on every subsequent release based on that one. Now, we always felt Dragon Age was the one people were pointing at as the next generation version, and we were like, “It’s good, isn’t it?”

We don’t really worry about the pressure; we want to be successful and we do the things we need to be successful but we don’t worry about fear of failure. We may fail at times, but hopefully on a small scale, and never utterly.

Source: http://www.vg247.com/2010/07/14/interview-biowares-dr-greg-on-dragon-age-2-and-the-triple-a-trap/

 

[Littleberu]

We know Dragon Age: Origins sold over 3,2 mln copies by february this year.

Going by your numbers it's a lot bigger and faster seller than either ME

But my numbers are only for the first two months of Mass Effect 2 or so across 2 platforms.

Your numbers are for the first 4 months of Dragon Age : Origins across 3 platforms.

I'm not saying it's not true that Dragon Age sold more, but it's clear that someone at Bioware thought it would do a lot more than it did, hence the changes in the design of the game.

 

[Cheech]

Occams Razor.

Besides, you throwing any number of random things doen't explain why Bioware doesn't reach the simplest possible conclusion: That consumers prefer hardcore DA to softcore ME. So why change DA?

How is it rational to guess, when you KNOW hardcore DA sold better than softcore ME?

Going back to the pen and paper days, medieval/Tolkien flavored RPGs ALWAYS sell better than the sci fi stuff.

The fact that Mass Effect sells as well as it does it somewhat shocking to me.

I don't think there is as strong a correlation between sales and in-game POV as you think there is. From a gameplay perspective, you can do most of the things in the Mass Effect games that you can in Dragon Age. The only real difference is the ability to script commands in Dragon Age, unless I'm forgetting something (it's been 6 months since I've touched either game).

 

[Dennis]

But my numbers are only for the first two months of Mass Effect 2 or so across 2 platforms.

Your numbers are for the first 4 months of Dragon Age : Origins across 3 platforms.

I'm not saying it's not true that Dragon Age sold more, but it's clear that someone at Bioware thought it would do a lot more than it did, hence the changes in the design of the game.

That is not clear at all. Bioware have said they are very happy with sales. They apparently think they can do even better with these changes.

 

[Interfectum]

But my numbers are only for the first two months of Mass Effect 2 or so across 2 platforms.

Your numbers are for the first 4 months of Dragon Age : Origins across 3 platforms.

I'm not saying it's not true that Dragon Age sold more, but it's clear that someone at Bioware thought it would do a lot more than it did, hence the changes in the design of the game.

Well someone at Bioware is delusional at best. The only way to make Dragon Age 2 sell over 4-5 million copies is to make a completely different game and even then they have a low chance of pulling those numbers.

I'm not sure why we are in a day and age when 2-3 million in sales is seen as okay or slightly disappointing. Most games will never pull in CoD or Halo numbers.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

How so?

The whole fucking gaming world seems to think hardcore RPGs are dead, so how would anybody figure that DA would sell better than ME considering the slobbering gaming media has declared softcore ME to be the future of RPGs.

Has anyone in the gaming media stopped to reflect on the fact that the insanely hyped ME series sell less than old-fashioned DA?

With the marketing, everyone expected DA to bomb like a motherfucker.

 

[Dennis]

Going back to the pen and paper days, medieval/Tolkien flavored RPGs ALWAYS sell better than the sci fi stuff.

The fact that Mass Effect sells as well as it does it somewhat shocking to me.

I don't think there is as strong a correlation between sales and in-game POV as you think there is. From a gameplay perspective, you can do most of the things in the Mass Effect games that you can in Dragon Age. The only real difference is the ability to script commands in Dragon Age, unless I'm forgetting something (it's been 6 months since I've touched either game).

huh? One is basically a shooter with lite RPG elements while the other is an isometric tactical RPG. They played nothing like each other for me on PC.

 

[Cheech]

How so?

The whole fucking gaming world seems to think hardcore RPGs are dead, so how would anybody figure that DA would sell better than ME considering the slobbering gaming media has declared softcore ME to be the future of RPGs.

Has anyone in the gaming media stopped to reflect on the fact that the insanely hyped ME series sell less than old-fashioned DA?

Sorry? The Bethesda stuff rates around where Bioware's games do, and their RPGs are way more hardcore than Dragon Age.

DA is old fashioned, for sure, but it is still way more linear and less punitive than the Bethesda games IMO.

 

[Interfectum]

Sorry? The Bethesda stuff rates around where Bioware's games do, and their RPGs are way more hardcore than Dragon Age.

DA is old fashioned, for sure, but it is still way more linear and less punitive than the Bethesda games IMO.

IMO, Bethesda is one of the few that did the PC -> console transition right. While they may have been simplified a bit both Oblivion and Fallout 3 are still what I would consider to be an engaging hardcore gaming experience. And they sold a shitload too.

 

[Cheech]

huh? One is basically a shooter with lite RPG elements while the other is an isometric tactical RPG. They played nothing like each other for me on PC.

Mass Effect is not a shooter, no more than Dragon Age is a hack and slash.

One of the unique things about Bioware games is you can play them either way, really, depending on the situation. There were plenty of battles in the Mass Effect games where I would pause every 10 seconds or so and fire up specific biotics and change weapons out.

It's no different than how I played Dragon Age, except again for DA's ability to script. In that regard, I actually had to babysit the battles less in DA because I would have each character's script tuned to work with the other party members.

Positioning is easier in an isometric viewpoint, no question. But I don't really feel like it makes the game inherently better; in fact, I prefer the third person because the battles are more exciting. If I wanted high action in an isometric viewpoint, I'd play an RTS.

I do feel for people who like isometric RPGs, though. I am a huge fan of the old Baldur's Gate games, but I've come to realize that a lot of the reason for the isometric view is because of hardware/engine limitations. It's not dissimilar to cutscene-heavy, super linear JPRGs needing to take their place in history instead of illogically continuing to be churned out.

 

[gillty]

Bethesda games are borring.

 

[water_wendi]

Mass Effect is not a shooter, no more than Dragon Age is a hack and slash.

How is ME not a shooter?

edit: System Shock and Fallout 3 are also shooters.

 

[Interfectum]

Mass Effect is not a shooter, no more than Dragon Age is a hack and slash.

Mass Effect 2 is a shooter... Mass Effect 1 it's arguable at this point.

 

[Dennis]

Bethesda games are borring.

Betsheda games, like all open-world games, are only boring if you are a boring player, so.....

Open-world games are the Second Coming of videogames.

 

[Cheech]

How is ME not a shooter?

edit: System Shock and Fallout 3 are also shooters.

Is Valkyria Chronicles a shooter? Is Starcraft 2 a shooter?

 

[Littleberu]

Well someone at Bioware is delusional at best. The only way to make Dragon Age 2 sell over 4-5 million copies is to make a completely different game and even then they have a low chance of pulling those numbers.

I'm not sure why we are in a day and age when 2-3 million in sales is seen as okay or slightly disappointing. Most games will never pull in CoD or Halo numbers.

Because Dragon Age Origins probably cost them 10 or 15 millions to develop at least. With all the support this game is getting, across 3 platforms, maybe they thought they'd get more money.

The fact of the matter is, they're aiming to a more mainstream audience with Dragon Age 2, which, in my book, is a win win situation. People saying they won't buy DA2 because it lacks feature that the first had are just saying that out of passionate hate. It seems that streamlining Mass Effect 2 didn't hurt its sale at all, and it got better reviews than the first. That's that, I think.

 

[Interfectum]

Is Valkyria Chronicles a shooter? Is Starcraft 2 a shooter?

:lol joke post?

 

[Cheech]

Betsheda games, like all open-world games, are only boring if you are a boring player, so.....

Open-world games are the Second Coming of videogames.

Open world RPGs are the natural progression of things, IMO.

Traditional isometric RPGs and JRPGs are passe. The only reason we haven't had open world RPGs all along is technology. Sure, companies like Bethesda had open world RPGs going back to the early 90s, but they were terrible. Just miles and miles of randomly generated wasteland.

 

[Cheech]

:lol joke post?

It's sarcasm, which is a form of "joke" I suppose.

Just because a game has guns that shoot doesn't make them shooters.

 

[Interfectum]

Because Dragon Age Origins probably cost them 10 or 15 millions to develop at least. With all the support this game is getting, across 3 platforms, maybe they thought they'd get more money.

The fact of the matter is, they're aiming to a more mainstream audience with Dragon Age 2, which, in my book, is a win win situation. People saying they won't buy DA2 because it lacks feature that the first had are just saying that out of passionate hate. It seems that streamlining Mass Effect 2 didn't hurt its sale at all, and it got better reviews than the first. That's that, I think.

But it also didn't help sales. You also run the risk of alienating your fanbase in the process.

 

[water_wendi]

Is Valkyria Chronicles a shooter? Is Starcraft 2 a shooter?

From what i played of ME you had different guns that you could choose from.. you aimed at the enemy.. and clicked the left-mouse button. Upon hitting the left-mouse the gun your character had equipped activated and shot the enemy.

VC i dont know about.. SC2 ive seen lots of footage of though. In SC2 a unit has to be highlighted and then given orders to attack an enemy unit. The attacks are done automatically based upon the attacking units attributes.

Either you are being dense beyond belief or you dont understand what makes up fps or shooter gameplay.

 

[Interfectum]

It's sarcasm, which is a form of "joke" I suppose.

Just because a game has guns that shoot doesn't make them shooters.

ME2 is as much a shooter as a game like Bioshock is.

Just because you inject RPG trappings around a shooter doesn't mean it turns into an RPG.

 

[Dennis]

Open world RPGs are the natural progression of things, IMO.

Traditional isometric RPGs and JRPGs are passe. The only reason we haven't had open world RPGs all along is technology. Sure, companies like Bethesda had open world RPGs going back to the early 90s, but they were terrible. Just miles and miles of randomly generated wasteland.

I agree with the bolded. Open-world RPGs are king.

HOWEVER, there is no reason, as DA has shown, why you can't have isometric oldschool RPGs as a tasty snack between behemoth open-world gaming.

And JRPGs aren't going anywhere. Thoúgh I wish they would break out of the stale Final Fantsy mold.

 

[Ponn]

You know, this whole removing isometric view from PC's suck and all. I have to say though this whole thread of bitching of "downgrading for stupid consoles" is sounding eerily close to the same bitching of streamlining Mass Effect 2. And we all know how that turned out.

Just saying, I think Bioware deserves some benefit of the doubt here. Lets at least wait till we get some solid gameplay videos or something.