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[hank_tree]

Looking at the number of downloads mods get, I don't think that's at all accurate. It's in the neighbourhood of NWN.

Can you download mods with a pirated copy? That would inflate the download numbers.

 

[brain_stew]

Duh, of course it was piracy! :lol

But really, I don't believe that 250k sold copies info is true. After all BioWare themselves stated in that interview that PC sales "was really a surprise." and that the game was doing "really, really well" on PC market. If the game sold only 250k copies, I can't even imagine what their initial expectation were then.

Even Paradox releases which are super niche and much lower budget hit around 250K+ on the PC, there's no way that number is correct.

 

[Ventrue]

Can you download mods with a pirated copy? That would inflate the download numbers.

But what I'm saying is that the number of downloads is in the same league as NWN. People could've pirated that game too.

It's not like mods are getting 250k downloads, I'm just saying that the level of 'community activity' puts it roughly on par with NWN.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Can you download mods with a pirated copy? That would inflate the download numbers.

Yes, you can. You can even have an account on BioWare Social and upload data (characters, story, achievments etc.) with a pirated copy of the game.

 

[Hari Seldon]

-1 sale for me. The only thing you can do in situations like this is to vote with your wallet.

 

[Wiktor]

I'm just saying that the level of 'community activity' puts it roughly on par with NWN.

You mean current activity? Because DA neither sold nor has as much active community as NWN1 did couple months after launch.

Now I don't believe the 250K number even for a second, because Drakensang sold over 100K in few months in Germany alone and Torchlight is pulling 600K+ numbers right now, so either the 250K number is taken out of somebody's ass or it might be just US-only number.

That said, original Neverwinter Nights sold well over 2 mln copies, over 3mlns if you also count the two add-onss (which is what DA sold on all platforms combined) and it actualy has MP, so DA just can't and never will be able to compete with ammount of community created content with NWN

 

[kittoo]

I´ve been thinking a bit about the rumours that Dragon Age only sold 250k on PC. That can´t be right can it? Cause if it is, then it must be really humiliating for Bioware when their protégé Cd Projekt managed to sell well over a million of The Witcher. You can´t blame the numbers on piracy of a lesser known developer with a more obscure titles manages to outsell you by 4 to 1, and there are plenty of other developers being really succesful on the platform.

If it´s true that the only sold 250k of the PC version, then I really hope that Bioware at least internally are asking the question: What went wrong?

In a forum post dated 7 March 2009, CDProkekt said that The Witcher had sold 1.2 million. After that we've had steam sales and what not. It might be at 1.4-1.5 million as of now!

 

[Wiktor]

... How exactly does PC gaming dying help it? That sound somewhat Orwellian...

The only thing that's dying is big budgeted action and RPG exclusives. PCgaming has moved into it's own comfortable niche and it's doing better than ever there.

Big budgeted mainstream exclusives were killing the things I loved on this platform. The trend started around HL1's release and cultimated in HL2's premiere. 2004 was the height of this trend, we got awful lot of big budgeted exclusive that year, the problem was that they killed pretty much every genre that wasn't FPS and RTS. Throw in some rare RPG here and there and that was all PCgaming was getting. Genres like adventure, wargames, simulators, 4Xes and many others were either already near extinction or quickly heading towards it.
Niche games are great, but they just can 't compete for gamer's and press' attention with those big blockbuster exclusives. So they were dying out quickly.

The move of all those PC giants to consoles has created awful lot of breathing space on PC. This is one of the main reasons why we've seen such ressurgence of niche genres in recent few years. DD helped also, but the ressurgence is visible also in retail too. Without the need to compete with giants smaller devs can easily survive on the market. That's why not only so many new devs are being born, but also why we've seen so many veteran PC designers go back to PC gaming, after spending decade or so on retirement.

PCgaming right now is quickly turning into modernized version of what it was in 80s and early 90s. Sure, it would be great to have both niche and big budgeted exclusives, but realisticaly the later can't exist without hurting the former to some degree.
To me the current situation is a very welcome and healthy compromise. We get amazing niche development, which regularly provides us with hardcore exclusives.
And on high production values front we still do get many of them, sure most are RTSes and MMOs, but ocassionaly we will also get some RPG or action game. And if that's not enough you can always turn to PC versions of multiplats. Sure, they aren't designed perfectly to work on PC, but most of the time they are high quality and very enjoyable to play on PC, which just didn't happen 10 years ago. We do of course also get some crappy port from time to time, but even it is most of the time playable and there are also cases when console-centric games have their best versions on PC. If somebody would tell me 8-10 years ago that late port from consoles can sometimes actualy be the best version I would think they are completely crazy.

 

[Ventrue]

You mean current activity? Because DA neither sold nor has as much active community as NWN1 did couple months after launch.

Let me clarify again. No, it doesn't have quite as much activity as NWN because it's not MP and the toolset it more complex. I was simply pointing out that there's no way a mod is going to get 20k downloads based on 250k sold. Some of the more popular NWN mods have say 30k downloads.

 

[Wiktor]

In a forum post dated 7 March 2009, CDProkekt said that The Witcher had sold 1.2 million. After that we've had steam sales and what not. It might be at 1.4-1.5 million as of now!

At this year's CDP spring conference (when they showed W2 to mass public for the first time) they said it sold 1.5 mln copies. Out of which:
Eastern Europe -260K
Russia 460K
Rest of the world - 780K

Also, CDP has recently stated that despite some rumors to the contrary Witcher did bring in profift, despite the fact that they counted in the cost of forming the whole studio and the money they've spent on initial version that was scrapped.

As a cherry on top I will give you a nice statistic that shows how much DD helps with impulse buys After Witcher 2 was shown at this year's E3 and precicely just after it got all the acclaim and hype at Gamespot, the sales at Steam jumped like hell. During that weekend (3 days) they've managed to sell 20K copies through Steam. And mind you, it's a 3 years old game.

 

[thefil]

Crazy logic about how no big games means a better platform.

That's interesting, I never thought of it that way. I see what you mean, though; some of those smaller titles on PC are the ones I really get attached to and might have looked over if there were too many big released.

 

[SmokyDave]

This sort of thing is just bad news for everyone.

Haha yeah all those people who care about whether a game is good or bad are nerds but i have sex and play leisure suit larry box office bust so i even have sex when im playing game

ps i bench 130

That cracked me up. Tears down cheeks, sides aching.

 

[Wiktor]

That's interesting, I never thought of it that way. I see what you mean, though; some of those smaller titles on PC are the ones I really get attached to and might have looked over if there were too many big released.

It's not crazy, you just need to think about PC gaming market as any other market. Imagine a small town, full of many small shops. Now imagine they put Wallmart there, the need to compete with such giant will kill most of the small shops, they just can't stand up to it (with shops they can't compete price-wise, with games production-values wise). Remove Wallmart and they regain their clients.

Or imagine a group of pretty, but not gorgeus girls in one class. If that's all there is they will be popular, introduce couple of 10/10 girls and most will look at them, concentrate all their attention of them and ignore all the nice 7/10s

 

[_Xenon_]

Great news ... right after I ordered a new gaming computer. Fucking bullshit.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

Or imagine a group of pretty, but not gorgeus girls in one class. If that's all there is they will be popular, introduce couple of 10/10 girls and most will look at them, concentrate all their attention of them and ignore all the nice 7/10s

We wouldnt notice any of them, were too busy complaining on internet forums !

 

[thefil]

It's not crazy

Sorry, I didn't mean you were crazy, I meant "oh crazy that just blew my mind".

 

[Pikelet]

-1 sale for me. The only thing you can do in situations like this is to vote with your wallet.

Unfortunately, the net result of doing this would be even more console-focused games. It is a ridiculous feedback loop.

 

[Azih]

Unfortunately, the net result of doing this would be even more console-focused games. It is a ridiculous feedback loop.

Yeah the wallet voting is what got us here in the first place.

 

[The Technomancer]

I hate to go OT, but are the earlier Geneforge games worth playing? They look much more primitive than GF5 (which I downloaded the demo and enjoyed. I'll buy it when I get some money).

How are the Spiderweb games? Are they any more modern (translation: easier for stupid me) to understand than Baldur's Gate, while still providing a compelling role-playing experience?

thefil: While they do still have a lot of text and dialogue trees, they're less "wall of text of doom!" then Baldur's gate was at times. (Okay, there's still walls of text, but they're much easier to read) Dunno if that helps.

Archie: Well the first Geneforge is still one of my favorite RPGs of all time, so I would actually start there, before 5 even. If you really loved the experience, 2 and 3 are a bit mediocre, but still worth playing, and if you only enjoyed it but still want more, 4 and 5 are much better games.
The two things that define the series (for me) are the genuine gray areas with the factions (no faction is ever wholly good or evil, and the "morality" system extends beyond "you make this choice now? here is your immediate reward) and the cohesion of a world laid out in an actual believable way. (This is mostly the first Geneforge, but I hold up Sucia Island as my favorite RPG setting, bar none)

Also, for anyone looking at these, their site offers massive demos. I'm talking a good full sixth of the game, four to five hours by most people's playtime.

Wait, where are we getting the 250k figure on PC from? That seems...slightly ridiculous, one would think.

 

[Sir Garbageman]

The main reason I bought DA:O for PC as opposed to 360 was due to the overhead view and more "tactical" combat. Really, really lame Bioware.

 

[thefil]

thefil: While they do still have a lot of text and dialogue trees, they're less "wall of text of doom!" then Baldur's gate was at times. (Okay, there's still walls of text, but they're much easier to read) Dunno if that helps.

Thanks for attempting to answer to my misleadingly-nonspecific question. :lol

What I meant were the game systems. Whenever I try to play Baldur's Gate I get smacked around and can't seem to win fights; do these games have a lower barrier to entry?

P.S. Sorry to everyone for derailing the thread.

 

[The Technomancer]

Thanks for attempting to answer to my misleadingly-nonspecific question. :lol

What I meant were the game systems. Whenever I try to play Baldur's Gate I get smacked around and can't seem to win fights; do these games have a lower barrier to entry?

P.S. Sorry to everyone for derailing the thread.

Oh yeah, no worries there. Basic combat interface is very easy to learn, and the difficulty curve is really smooth (and probably a little on the easy side). Your first few battles are going to be a cakewalk as the game teaches you the basics. Beating a tough battle (for me at least) never came down to "go away and grind for an hour" so much as "replay this battle until your tactics and choreography are perfect" which I found the more fun of the two. (and there are difficulty settings)

 

[Bradach]

no overhead view means no sale for me.

i originally bought the 360 version of DAO and traded it in against the PC version within a week. I suppose it depends on your play style. I like to play very tactically and that's just impossible on the console versions...

 

[water_wendi]

Yeah the wallet voting is what got us here in the first place.

Not really. Bioware hasnt been focused on PC since NWN. All their games until very recently were prioritized for console and eventually made it to PC six months to two years later. So if Bioware was let down with the sales of Jade Empire or KotOR or Mass Effect PC its their own damn fault.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

So OP should probably be updated with this. Official word from Bioware:

On the subject of mods, he says:

The tools we're using to make Dragon Age 2 are very, very close to the tools you guys have used to make your mods for DA:O. They're not identical, as we've made a few in-house improvements, but they're almost identical. As such, there isn't a new toolset to release, per se.
While we won't be releasing a toolset update in tandem with Dragon Age 2, we ARE investigating what it would take to update the community toolset to match ours, along with providing DA2 content in the future.

While for the game's camera, things are a little more vague:

While we likely won't pull as far up as we did in DA:O, I have always felt that the key to tactical play was actually freeing your camera from the character you're controlling to issue precise orders, which is what we're tuning now. So, this means you can still maneuver the camera around the battlefield and issue orders from a remote location, just as you could in Origins.

http://kotaku.com/5607962/report-dragon-age-ii-on-pc-loses-mod-tools-strategy-camera

 

[Gully State]

So OP should probably be updated with this. Official word from Bioware:





http://kotaku.com/5607962/report-dragon-age-ii-on-pc-loses-mod-tools-strategy-camera

OP should update his quote but we've been discussing this PR spin pretty much all weekend..

 

[Lostconfused]

So OP should probably be updated with this. Official word from Bioware:
http://kotaku.com/5607962/report-dragon-age-ii-on-pc-loses-mod-tools-strategy-camera

That was already posted on page 4 of this thread.

 

[CecilRousso]

Guitar Atomik: It´s in the link in the OP, and that information has been posted in this thread at least four times now.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Guitar Atomik: It´s in the link in the OP, and that information has been posted in this thread at least four times now.

My bad. I read the last 3-4 pages and people seem to be talking as if that info hadn't come out.

 

[Interfectum]

Why is Bioware so scared of making a hardcore RPG? Blizzard just released what is arguably one of the most hardcore games of the year and it will easily outsell games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect 2, etc.

Contrary to popular belief in both publisher boardrooms and here, making casual trash isn't always the answer to getting blockbuster sales. There is a huge audience of gamers out there that crave intelligent, well designed games. Bioware was on this path when they released Dragon Age. Such a shame. :\

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I'm mostly surprised about how many people actually used the iso viewpoint. I only used it every now and then to get a better look at the battlefield. I mean I understand why people would be pissed that it's gone but it wouldn't keep me from buying the game.

 

[sflufan]

The more I think about this, the more I've come to the conclusion that Dragon Age II represents a "revenue booster" for BioWare.

The game is releasing less than 2 years after the original, an unusually short turnaround time for a sequel (L4D2 aside, but that's another developer and another genre entirely). I mean, ME2 released more than 2 years after the original.

It really does appear so far that DA2 is an attempt to minimize cost while boosting revenue, and there is only one reason I can think for this: the development costs for The Old Republic are bleeding EA's BioWare division dry.

EA has already stated it's the most expensive game they've ever developed. Furthermore, TOR right now is massive cash sink -- all costs, zero revenue. BioWare needs to put something out there that's low-cost to bring in cash and it really does appear that DA2 is that thing.

 

[Interfectum]

I'm mostly surprised about how many people actually used the iso viewpoint. I only used it every now and then to get a better look at the battlefield. I mean I understand why people would be pissed that it's gone but it wouldn't keep me from buying the game.

The lack of the iso viewpoint, to me, is a sign of worse things to come. If they stripped away the toolset and viewpoint, what else have they done? Seems like they are injecting Mass Effect 2 into Dragon Age. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

 

[Pancakes]

The lack of the iso viewpoint, to me, is a sign of worse things to come. If they stripped away the toolset and viewpoint, what else have they done? Seems like they are injecting Mass Effect 2 into Dragon Age. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

-Taken away different races
-No origin stories

+Voice acting

I'm sure there is alot more but this is all I can recall atm.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

The lack of the iso viewpoint, to me, is a sign of worse things to come. If they stripped away the toolset and viewpoint, what else have they done? Seems like they are injecting Mass Effect 2 into Dragon Age. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

The update is basically saying the original toolset will work with DA2 though right? The main question is if they'll let people download the tweaks they've made in house for DA2. Or am I reading that wrong?

 

[EviLore]

The more I think about this, the more I've come to the conclusion that Dragon Age II represents a "revenue booster" for BioWare.

The game is releasing less than 2 years after the original, an unusually short turnaround time for a sequel (L4D2 aside, but that's another developer and another genre entirely). I mean, ME2 released more than 2 years after the original.

It really does appear so far that DA2 is an attempt to minimize cost while boosting revenue, and there is only one reason I can think for this: the development costs for The Old Republic are bleeding EA's BioWare division dry.

EA has already stated it's the most expensive game they've ever developed. Furthermore, TOR right now is massive cash sink -- all costs, zero revenue. BioWare needs to put something out there that's low-cost to bring in cash and it really does appear that DA2 is that thing.

Well, keep in mind that DAO PC was in the can for a significant amount of time while the console ports were being worked on. So DA2's dev cycle is probably longer than it looks.

 

[The Technomancer]

-Taken away different races
-No origin stories

+Voice acting

I'm sure there is alot more but this is all I can recall atm.

Hmmm, those removals definitely hurt the "freeform" nature of the game, but if it comes at the advantage of a better overall dedicated plot, that could be good.

That's an incredibly huge freaking if though.

 

[Unhandled Exception]

-Taken away different races
-No origin stories

+Voice acting

I'm sure there is alot more but this is all I can recall atm.

There's been numerous mentions of 're-emphasized action', which to me means less depth and more cutting arms off. I honestly wouldn't even be surprised if you were locked in to a warrior class at this point.

 

[Interfectum]

Well, keep in mind that DAO PC was in the can for a significant amount of time while the console ports were being worked on.

Disgusting.

 

[Archie]

They also implemented the Mass Effect wheel so you don't have to read and can just pick the smiley face option.

 

[Philthy]

The main reason I bought DA:O for PC as opposed to 360 was due to the overhead view and more "tactical" combat. Really, really lame Bioware.

Pretty much it for me as well. I love my consoles as much as the next guy, but I would not even have considered this on a console.

 

[szaromir]

Disgusting.

Why? Late ports usually have poor sales, EA would have to run a separate marketing campaign. There's nothing disgusting about that, what's disgusting is cutting elements from the sequel that made the first game enjoyable.

 

[Azih]

So if Bioware was let down with the sales of Jade Empire or KotOR or Mass Effect PC its their own damn fault.

Er, I was speaking more about console games spending more money on Dragon Age than PC gamers. Which is why they're not focusing on the PC centric features of the original Dragon Age for the sequel. Jade Empire, Kotor, and Mass Effect PC are not relevant.

 

[Littleberu]

Why is Bioware so scared of making a hardcore RPG? Blizzard just released what is arguably one of the most hardcore games of the year and it will easily outsell games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect 2, etc.

That argument is almost as bad as the "PC Games don't sell". You can't compare a heavy weight RTS like Starcraft II or other Blizzard titles to any other franchise on the market right now.

Bioware is playing safe, obviously, but they did Dragon Age Origins last year, which was, arguably, their most hardcore attempt at a real RPG since Neverwinter's Night. Now, they're heading to another direction with the franchise. They're doing what many developers are afraid to do. Now, are they better for doing that? I don't know, and, you wouldn't know either. I'll wait until I play the game. Making it similar to Mass Effect could be a bad thing if only Mass Effect sucked. But it didn't.

And you guys are taking this game as if Dragon Age was a strong title in the PC Games Lineup. It wasn't. It's not a title to fight over for.

The main reason I bought DA:O for PC as opposed to 360 was due to the overhead view and more "tactical" combat. Really, really lame Bioware.

So, now, you're not going to buy the game because it doesn't have either, or are you saying you'll buy it on 360?

 

[subversus]

Why is Bioware so scared of making a hardcore RPG? Blizzard just released what is arguably one of the most hardcore games of the year and it will easily outsell games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect 2, etc.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.... why, why people still asking questions like that?

It's because SC2 boasts strong and popular multiplayer component tied to Battle.net and DA/ME2 doesn't.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

They already did this with Mass Effect 2, and it sold worse than the first one did.

Is this true?

 

[Interfectum]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.... why, why people still asking questions like that?

It's because SC2 boasts strong and popular multiplayer component tied to Battle.net and DA/ME2 doesn't.

If Blizzard released a PC only, single player RPG it would outsell any single Bioware game across all platforms. It's not just the online component.

Also, you think of ME2 had an online component tied to Biowares awesome social network lol) it would sell any better?

 

[CecilRousso]

Why is Bioware so scared of making a hardcore RPG?

They aren´t scared, but they want more sales than what a hardcore RPG can make. I´m pretty sure that a fully PC exclusive hardcore RPG can sell well over 2 million, but they want games that sell 10 million, and the PC alone can´t offer such sales. And because of that, compromises has to be done. And since one the strength with the PC is that is so flexible when it comes to game, it´s the platform that has to make most compromises in multiformat titles.

 

[Interfectum]

They aren´t scared, but they want more sales than what a hardcore RPG can make. I´m pretty sure that a fully PC exclusive hardcore RPG can sell well over 2 million, but they want games that sell 10 million, and the PC alone can´t offer such sales. And because of that, compromises has to be done. And since one the strength with the PC is that is so flexible when it comes to game, it´s the platform that has to make most compromises in multiformat titles.

They aren't anywhere close to 10 million and compromises only hurt their hardcore fanbase in the long run. In fact they are going the opposite direction seeing as how ME2 failed to outsell ME and I'm guessing DA2 is not going to light the sales charts on fire, either.

 

[Azih]

If Blizzard released a PC only, single player RPG it would outsell any single Bioware game across all platforms.

Can't really predict that because they never have