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[truly101]

Oh, not this shit again. You still have people that insist that Metroid Prime was an FPS because of the camera view. Thats like calling the first Metroid an action game because you ran around shooting things like Contra.

 

[Interfectum]

You know, this whole removing isometric view from PC's suck and all. I have to say though this whole thread of bitching of "downgrading for stupid consoles" is sounding eerily close to the same bitching of streamlining Mass Effect 2. And we all know how that turned out.

Just saying, I think Bioware deserves some benefit of the doubt here. Lets at least wait till we get some solid gameplay videos or something.

We got a stripped down shooter / RPG hybrid with a decent story and horrid final boss?

 

[Gully State]

It seems that streamlining Mass Effect 2 didn't hurt its sale at all, and it got better reviews than the first. That's that, I think.

This has been repeated before but that's because Mass Effect 2 addressed and fixed the weakness in combat from the first game whereas DA2 is eliminating/drastically changing the strengths of the first game. They're not the same.

 

[gillty]

Betsheda games, like all open-world games, are only boring if you are a boring player, so.....

No Bethesda games are just boring uninspired games. (some of my favorite games are open-world)

 

[Dennis]

No Bethesda games are just boring uninspired games. (some of my favorite games are open-world)

If you couldn't find any fun in Morrowind, Oblivion or Fallout 3, I gotta say, I think the problem may be you....

Disclaimer: Oblivion did need to be modded but that is why God invented PCs.

 

[truly101]

We got a stripped down shooter / RPG hybrid with a decent story and horrid final boss?

How was it different from the 1st game again?

 

[CecilRousso]

No Bethesda games are just boring uninspired games. (some of my favorite games are open-world)

Oblivion? Yes. Morrowind and Fallout 3? No way.

 

[szaromir]

Betsheda games, like all open-world games, are only boring if you are a boring player, so.....

Open-world games are the Second Coming of videogames.

Ummm no, being open world doesn't make any game good by default. If I want to explore an open world that's actually very interesting and diverse, I just go out and jump on a bike if I have a free afternoon or go for a travel if I have a free week. A game has to give me compelling reasons to play it and some open world games give them and some not. The same goes for linear games too. (there are also open world games like GTA that are in fact extremely linear as well...)

For me Mass Effect 2 was a shooter. It has actually role playing in it, but other typical RPG elements (exploration, inventory, customization, loot, team management etc.) are so light or non-existant, ME2 plays like a normal shooter most of the time.

 

[WanderingWind]

If you couldn't find any fun in Morrowind, Oblivion or Fallout 3, I gotta say, I think the problem may be you....

Disclaimer: Oblivion did need to be modded but that is why God invented PCs.

Exactly.

By the way, where the hell are the next gen open-world RPGs? Is Bethesda the only company allowed to make them, or what?

We can have 20 GTA clones, but only one Elder Scrolls clone? And no Baldur's Gate clone? What's up with that?

 

[demosthenes]

:lol what a joke.

fuckin' EA.

If Mike Laidlaw is the lead designer of the game and he works for Bioware...isn't it a

'fuckin' Bioware'?

 

[Ponn]

We got a stripped down shooter / RPG hybrid with a decent story and horrid final boss?

Nice try, you are firmly in the minority if you think Mass Effect 2 was worse than Mass Effect for its streamlining.

 

[Cheech]

And JRPGs aren't going anywhere. Thoúgh I wish they would break out of the stale Final Fantsy mold.

Traditional JRPGs can die in a fire. Only Japanophiles or masochists enjoyed FF13.

However, if the new face of JRPGs is something like Demon's Souls, bring it on. That game is brilliant. It was my favorite game I played last year, even over DA/FO3.

 

[water_wendi]

By the way, where the hell are the next gen open-world RPGs? Is Bethesda the only company allowed to make them, or what?

We can have 20 GTA clones, but only one Elder Scrolls clone? And no Baldur's Gate clone? What's up with that?

My guess is that RPGs are hard to make and/or cost more.

 

[WanderingWind]

Nice try, you are firmly in the minority if you think Mass Effect 2 was worse than Mass Effect for its streamlining.

No, the split is about 50/50. Nice try at forum inception though.

 

[water_wendi]

Nice try, you are firmly in the minority if you think Mass Effect 2 was worse than Mass Effect for its streamlining.

There were two ways Bioware could have handled the sequel.. they could have fixed and expanded on the RPG stuff that was in ME1 or they could have stripped it out like what ended up happening. Dont be surprised that the people that wanted more RPG in their RPG didnt like the changes.

 

[Interfectum]

Nice try, you are firmly in the minority if you think Mass Effect 2 was worse than Mass Effect for its streamlining.

Mass Effect 2 cleaned up a lot (LOT) of the problems from Mass Effect 1 but, IMO they swung too far in the shooter direction for my tastes.

 

[Cheech]

ME2 is as much a shooter as a game like Bioshock is.

Just because you inject RPG trappings around a shooter doesn't mean it turns into an RPG.

Bioshock is "sort of" a shooter, but I think of it as an action/adventure first and foremost.

I think you're too hung up on labels.

Mass Effect is an RPG, with some of the trappings of a shooter. I don't know how you can possibly think otherwise, unless you haven't been playing games very long. CoD is a shooter. Gears of War is a shooter. Mass Effect? Really??

 

[Dennis]

Exactly.

By the way, where the hell are the next gen open-world RPGs? Is Bethesda the only company allowed to make them, or what?

We can have 20 GTA clones, but only one Elder Scrolls clone? And no Baldur's Gate clone? What's up with that?

They are waiting for the next-gen consoles.

And DA:O is a Baldurs Gate clone that sold 3.2 fucking million copies - you know, an obvious failure.

 

[szaromir]

Mass Effect 2 cleaned up a lot (LOT) of the problems from Mass Effect 1 but, IMO they swung too far in the shooter direction for my tastes.

Also the main storyline in ME2 wasn't particularly breathtaking, especially the ending was disappointing comparing to ME1. Hopefully Bioware will redeem themselves on both fronts with ME3.

 

[tokkun]

Occams Razor.

Besides, you throwing any number of random things doen't explain why Bioware doesn't reach the simplest possible conclusion: That consumers prefer hardcore DA to softcore ME. So why change DA?

How is it rational to guess, when you KNOW hardcore DA sold better than softcore ME?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[Interfectum]

Bioshock is "sort of" a shooter, but I think of it as an action/adventure first and foremost.

I think you're too hung up on labels.

Mass Effect is an RPG, with some of the trappings of a shooter. I don't know how you can possibly think otherwise, unless you haven't been playing games very long. CoD is a shooter. Gears of War is a shooter. Mass Effect? Really??

I'm too hung up on labels and you aren't? Really??

 

[WanderingWind]

They are waiting for the next-gen consoles.

And DA:O is a Baldurs Gate clone that sold 3.2 fucking million copies - you know, an obvious failure.

Unfortunately, this generation is going to last so long that the gap between the games is going to be horribly long. And yeah. Dragon Age should have spawned some competition. It did not.

 

[Cheech]

No Bethesda games are just boring uninspired games. (some of my favorite games are open-world)

They aren't boring, or uninspired. However, they DO require that you personally find enjoyment in exploration. Finding hidden caves full of traps and monsters in Bethesda games keep me coming back. 200+ hours played in Oblivion/Morrowind, ~150 in Fallout 3.

 

[Dennis]

Mass Effect is all about the Visual Design.

The 70s-inspired optimist hard sci-fi visuals in glorious colors, is what I love about these games.

Lets be honest, as RPGs and shooters they are pretty mediocre games.

 

[Interfectum]

Mass Effect is all about the Visual Design. The 70s-inspired optimist hard sci-fi visuals in glorious colors, is what I love about these games.

Lets be honest, as RPGs and shooters they are pretty mediocre games.

ME2 was a decent cover based shooter. I wouldn't be surprised if they add online multiplayer to ME3. Cheech might have a meltdown though... could be worth it.

 

[Ponn]

No, the split is about 50/50. Nice try at forum inception though.

Going more by sales. If I ever stuck by forum rules I wouldn't have bought FF13 because of the pixels on a belt buckle.

There were two ways Bioware could have handled the sequel.. they could have fixed and expanded on the RPG stuff that was in ME1 or they could have stripped it out like what ended up happening. Dont be surprised that the people that wanted more RPG in their RPG didnt like the changes.

Which is funny from an anecdotal standpoint since I loathe FPS and love FPS but loved Mass Effect 2 more then ME1. Keep in mind, just because they aren't fulfilling peoples RPG fantasies doesn't make the game bad or worse. It just no longer fits in your own perceptions of what you envisioned. Obviously Bioware made a good decison with ME2 or else the sales would have reflected otherwise. Much like I hate motion controls but who am I to tell Nintendo they are doing it wrong.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

ME2 was a decent cover based shooter.

I wish. If it was maybe the removal of most of the RPG elements wouldn't have been so bad.

 

[Interfectum]

Going more by sales. If I ever stuck by forum rules I wouldn't have bought FF13 because of the pixels on a belt buckle.

So you are saying game sales is proof of what? That ME2 wasn't hurt by it's streamlining? That it was better than ME1?

Shouldn't a streamlined ME2 have sold better than ME1? Wasn't that the point of dumbing it down in the first place?

 

[Cheech]

I'm too hung up on labels and you aren't? Really??

You're the one insisting that Mass Effect is a "shooter" as a means to disparage the game. I am being rational and pointing out that Mass Effect isn't a shooter just because it has guns and shooting.

In a "real" shooter, running around and shooting stuff is the main conceit of the game. It is all you do.

In games like Bioshock and Mass Effect, you do this, but it is only part of the gameplay. There are also generous amounts of exploration, role playing, story, loot/loot management, upgrades, leveling up, etc...

I think what has confused some people is that modern shooters such as CoD DO integrate some threadbare RPG elements to give people a reason to keep playing. However, it doesn't make CoD an RPG no more than Mass Effect is a shooter.

It's really not that difficult.

 

[Dennis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

You throw up reasons seemingly at random but discount the most obvious conclusion one can draw from the sales of DA being greater than those of ME.

Why should I care about a single one of your reasons since you offer no proof any of them are likely?

You should have read the wiki entry on Occams Razor instead.

 

[WanderingWind]

Going more by sales. If I ever stuck by forum rules I wouldn't have bought FF13 because of the pixels on a belt buckle.

This says nothing about sales.

Nice try, you are firmly in the minority if you think Mass Effect 2 was worse than Mass Effect for its streamlining.

And even if it did, last numbers had Mass Effect 1 better than Mass Effect 2. Also, who the hell talked about the graphics of FFXIII sucking? It was all about HD towns and linearity.

 

[Brashnir]

Sweet. That's another one I don't have to buy.

 

[Interfectum]

You're the one insisting that Mass Effect is a "shooter" as a means to disparage the game. I am being rational and pointing out that Mass Effect isn't a shooter just because it has guns and shooting.

In a "real" shooter, running around and shooting stuff is the main conceit of the game. It is all you do.

In games like Bioshock and Mass Effect, you do this, but it is only part of the gameplay. There are also generous amounts of exploration, role playing, story, loot/loot management, upgrades, leveling up, etc...

I think what has confused some people is that modern shooters such as CoD DO integrate some threadbare RPG elements to give people a reason to keep playing. However, it doesn't make CoD an RPG no more than Mass Effect is a shooter.

It's really not that difficult.

Again you seem just as 'stuck' on labels as you claim I am.

The majority of Mass Effect 2s core gameplay is cover based shooting. Hell Bioware themselves even called it a "shooter RPG". It's a shooter with RPG elements, it's really not that difficult to comprehend.

 

[demosthenes]

No, the split is about 50/50. Nice try at forum inception though.

Just came from the inception thread, so this made me :lol

 

[Dennis]

I preferred Mass Effect over Mass Effect 2.

Yeah, they improved the shooting and some of the new characters are great, but story-wise and RPG-wise the sequel was a downgrade.

Also, the levels were more open and epic in the first game.

 

[Littleberu]

So you are saying game sales is proof of what? That ME2 wasn't hurt by it's streamlining? That it was better than ME1?

Shouldn't a streamlined ME2 have sold better than ME1? Wasn't that the point of dumbing it down in the first place?

Yeah and in two months it sold more (or as much) than Mass Effect 1 did in 5 months.

Look, I know where you're coming from with the alienating fans and all that jazz, but Mass Effect 2 was a success both critically (it got better ratings) and in sales (it took its place as valuable franchise on only 2 platforms).

They just saw that potential when streamlining Dragon Age 2.

And even if it did, last numbers had Mass Effect 1 better than Mass Effect 2. Also, who the hell talked about the graphics of FFXIII sucking? It was all about HD towns and linearity.

Of course it sold more, it was released 2 years before. Now, let's try doing it with indexed sales, see how it compares. I'd wager Mass Effect 2 sold more.

 

[Cheech]

Again you seem just as 'stuck' on labels as you claim I am.

The majority of Mass Effect 2s core gameplay is cover based shooting. Hell Bioware themselves even called it a "shooter RPG". It's a shooter with RPG elements, it's really not that difficult to comprehend.

You're being absurd.

 

[subversus]

Mass Effect is all about the Visual Design.

The 70s-inspired optimist hard sci-fi visuals in glorious colors, is what I love about these games.

Lets be honest, as RPGs and shooters they are pretty mediocre games.

it may sound odd but ME2 gave me Deus Ex vibe in its shooter department (

Spoiler

no, I don't mean actual DX shooting mechanics :lol

). Combining different weapons and powers creates hundred ways to approach any given combat situation and it is very satysfying.

 

[Gully State]

Mass Effect = RPG with Shooter Elements
Mass Effect 2 = Shooter with RPG elements. I'd even venture to say that Mass Effect 2 is more of a 3rd person adventure game (akin to Zelda) than an RPG.

 

[Azih]

You're both stuck on labels Cheech and Interfectum!!

 

[WanderingWind]

Of course it sold more, it was released 2 years before. Now, let's try doing it with indexed sales, see how it compares. I'd wager Mass Effect 2 sold more.

That's exactly what I was talking about. C'mon. Do you really think anybody would argue otherwise? ...well, I suppose some would. I'm not a blithering idiot though.

In any event, last I knew, in their first 5 months of sales, ME1 outsold ME2. I can't find numbers either way through Google, so if somebody else shows some proof, I'll concede this point. Mostly because I think what works for the ME series won't work for the DA series, and vice versa. My position has ever been that BioWare would be very smart to create three platforms of their games.

One, ME, for the mid-range to casual RPG fan. One, DA, for the hardcore RPG fan. Lastly, Sonic/whatever, for their younger crowd. I think homogenization of every game they produce will simply ensure that when people get tired of the formula - and this will happen, at least for the casual fan - that they'll simply stop buying anything with the BioWare name.

Clearly, the sales of DA and ME show there is a market for both. I just don't think they should be the same damn game.

 

[Maleficence]

You're being absurd.

No he isn't, he's exactly right. I really liked the game, but he's spot on.

 

[Durante]

We can have 20 GTA clones, but only one Elder Scrolls clone? And no Baldur's Gate clone? What's up with that?

Drakensang? (and the sequel, well, prequel)

One, ME, for the mid-range to casual RPG fan. One, DA, for the hardcore RPG fan. Lastly, Sonic/whatever, for their younger crowd. I think homogenization of every game they produce will simply ensure that when people get tired of the formula

This is such a simple concept, I truly wonder what they're thinking.

 

[Azih]

I'd pin the blame on EA myself. DA was pre EA Bioware DA2 is post EA Bioware.

 

[WanderingWind]

Drakensang? (and the sequel, well, prequel)

This is such a simple concept, I truly wonder what they're thinking.

Hey, I offered to help with their marketing for free. It's not my fault they would rather pay for mediocrity.

 

[kittoo]

Drakensang? (and the sequel, well, prequel)

Drakensang is awesome IMO.

I didnt know anything about the game. Just got it on whim cause it looked a decent RPG....and boy it rocked! Excited for sequel.

 

[water_wendi]

Drakensang is awesome IMO.

I didnt know anything about the game. Just got it on whim cause it looked a decent RPG....and boy it rocked! Excited for sequel.

i hope Radon Labs bankruptcy and purchase didnt kill an English release of Drakensang 2.

 

[WanderingWind]

Are there any legal ways of downloading Drakensang? I could have sworn it was closer to a single character open world affair than a BG clone.

 

[Leatherface]

damn it. This sucks! >_<

 

[Steve Youngblood]

You know, this whole removing isometric view from PC's suck and all. I have to say though this whole thread of bitching of "downgrading for stupid consoles" is sounding eerily close to the same bitching of streamlining Mass Effect 2. And we all know how that turned out.

Just saying, I think Bioware deserves some benefit of the doubt here. Lets at least wait till we get some solid gameplay videos or something.

Hmm... well, I don't think the comparison is particularly apt. The first Mass Effect was released exclusively on the 360 for a period (3-6 months I believe), and was a completely new IP that, though more RPG than the second, was NOT as pure an RPG experience as BioWare's fans came to expect. It sort of straddled the fence between trying to be a pure RPG and trying to be a solid 3rd-person shooter, and it's difficult to fault them for listening to the complaints about the shooting mechanics of the first and focusing on fixing that. After all, they also had Dragon Age coming out around the same time, so old school BioWare RPG fans could get their desired experience through that, freeing up Mass Effect to go in more of the action direction.

Dragon Age, on the other hand, was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. PC RPG fans waited a very long time for it, and the target platform was always the PC. To compare a shift in Mass Effect 2's focus and concede that it worked out well and then extrapolate that such a move would work equally well with Dragon Age is, in all honesty, a very disingenuous way of downplaying the importance of what PC RPG fans want from what was supposed to be a traditional PC RPG game.