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David Jaffe Addresses the Concern Over Gaming Subscription Services

Ev1L AuRoN

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Oh, absolutely. Your ability to choose what you want to play for yourself - nay, your very soul and identity - are going to be erased by Gamepass, just as they have by Netflix. We are the last people on earth who have been able to evade Netflix's dastardly brainwashing techniques. I see my friends and family who are no longer capable of making their own choices for completely optional, corporate entertainment products, and I weep for them.

This is the future that Microsoft sees for us. You should be terrified of how a subscription service that you can choose to ignore will compromise your ability to 'receive games'. Resist.

I'll be over here playing video games like a normal person. Jesus, posts like this are nuclear blasts of world destroying cringe. Just stop.
I have no problem with gamepass and I subscribe when there is some game that I want. What I don't want is that this become the norm. If all the big three start to do that I don't see as a great deal for us in the long run.
 
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Renozokii

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I think it's an easy argument that TV is amazing right now. And remember: Sopranos and Deadwood were both made by subscription services (HBO).

As for movies, there are amazing movies we've seen greenlit and made on these sub services (from big stuff like THE IRISHMAN and TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO 7 to the super indie like this year's best Oscar winner NOMADLAND, last year's PARASITE, ROMA, etc.) The difference is, these days movies don't seem to wedge into culture like they once did (Schindler's List, Godfathers,etc.)...these days it's tv people talk about like that, which I think HONESTLY has to do with sub services demolishing traditional run times of linear filmed entertainment and people realizing that a series is a much more satisfying watch than a 2 hour movie (that was really always simply the business model of theater exhibition driving the art).
Netflix bought the Irishman, didn’t fund it. They got trial of the Chicago 7 because of COVID making a theatrical release unrealistic. Parasite was again acquired after a long Korean theatrics run. Nomad land is a 5$ million dollar film that wasn’t funded by any streaming service, simply paid for afterwards. Roma again was funded in Mexico.
You are only driving in his point further when every film you listed was made for theaters initially with streaming coming later.

Netflix made and funded movies and tv shows largely are ass.
 

Renozokii

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Hard disagree on the quality of Netflix movies.....watched Army of the Dead last night,was looking forward to that one......absolute dogshit.
Almost every example people are listing of good Netflix films weren’t made from ground 0 by Netflix but bought after production was done. So much pro gamepass misinformation here, wonder what’s going on, as if a company notorious for astroturfing has a massive cost service to market to gamers
 

elliot5

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Netflix bought the Irishman, didn’t fund it. They got trial of the Chicago 7 because of COVID making a theatrical release unrealistic. Parasite was again acquired after a long Korean theatrics run. Nomad land is a 5$ million dollar film that wasn’t funded by any streaming service, simply paid for afterwards. Roma again was funded in Mexico.
You are only driving in his point further when every film you listed was made for theaters initially with streaming coming later.

Netflix made and funded movies and tv shows largely are ass.

Almost every example people are listing of good Netflix films weren’t made from ground 0 by Netflix but bought after production was done. So much pro gamepass misinformation here, wonder what’s going on, as if a company notorious for astroturfing has a massive cost service to market to gamers
How does that change anything to the subscriber that gets access to the content via the subscription service?

Netflix still has good content on their own. Chef's Table. Stranger Things. House of Cards (at first). The Crown. The Queen's Gambit. Etc. There's a lot of trash, but to say they don't have any own produced stuff is not true lol.
 

kbear

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Dragon Age was dead to me the moment I ran into an NPC in the camp whose sole purpose was literally to sell me DLC. Screw that. Immersion ruined.
Totally agree, man. I know the camp NPC you’re talking about, shit was disgusting. I hear Ma$$ Effect 4 is also gonna have a similar NPC in the Normandy. Can you imagine? Never buying another EA game again in my lifetime.
 
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Renozokii

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How does that change anything to the subscriber that gets access to the content via the subscription service?

Netflix still has good content on their own. Chef's Table. Stranger Things. House of Cards (at first). The Crown. The Queen's Gambit. Etc. There's a lot of trash, but to say they don't have any own produced stuff is not true lol.
Because the point stands that the best content is stuff that was made with the idea of a high grossing theatrical run in mind? Parasite is amongst the best films in years and it had nothing to do with streaming. That’s like saying gamepass is really improving the quality of gaming because ms paid for some games, that already made their money via a normal release, years after they came out. And those shows you listed still pale in comparison to the actual best shows of the last several years.
 
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elliot5

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Because the point stands that the best content is stuff that was made with the idea of a high grossing theatrical run in mind? Parasite is amongst the best films in years and it had nothing to do with streaming. That’s like saying gamepass is really improving the quality of gaming because ms paid for some games, that already made their money via a normal release, years after they came out. And those shows you listed still pale in comparison to the actual best shows of the last several years.
Parasite, I agree. It was an Oscar winner for a reason. But some in this thread would have you believe that the Oscars aren't indicative of quality + that Parasite would be worse if it came to Netflix on release. I think EVERY movie and game is made hoping they are highly successful, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I don't think anyone has claimed game pass is improving the quality of games as a whole? It is definitely permitting more experimental or niche games, especially for smaller developers. And imo it has yet to be proven it's actively hurting the quality of games.

Your last statement is irrelevant because it's subject. The Queen's Gambit was one of the best shows I've seen recently, and the others are all very good too. That just comes down to your opinion.
 

Renozokii

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You listed a bunch of stuff that was behind a subscription service. Also I’d like to add that the NEWEST media you referenced is from like 2004. 🙄.
Your just holding on to nostalgia, you didn’t really make a point.
To counter your point, streaming services brought great shows like the marvel line from Daredevil to Falcon & Winter Soldier, Orange is the new black, The Mando, it revived shows that were killed off so we can enjoy the finally. They bring audience to shows that were considered bad like “You.”
Podcasts have found success from streaming services.
im not defending GamePass per-se, it’s just there is no correlation between dwindling quality of content and subscription services. However, there is a correlation between green lighting crazier stuff because of subscription services.
I’m using my phone so sorry about grammar and spelling. 🤷🏾‍♂️
>You listed a bunch of stuff that was behind a subscription service. Also I’d like to add that the NEWEST media you referenced is from like 2004.
Your just holding on to nostalgia, you didn’t really make a point.

is anyone else getting just a tad tired of the false comparisons of HBO to streaming services? Hbos subscription price was a premium fee to a concentrated output of content considered best in class. Same way you pay more for better internet. Streaming services are about quantity first and foremost.

I overall agree that streaming has brought some quality content, but you are talking about, what? 10 services out now at this point? Of course there will be decent content. But for every show you list there’s hundreds of garbage ones. And we are talking about services that are taking in hundreds of millions a quarter. Gamepass, without even factoring in 23 developers, is still running at a net loss. And it’s getting a bit played out watching people play out imaginary situations where a multi trillion dollar company gets to make even more money. Let gamepass show results with its actual output first
 

Optimus Lime

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I'm just offering you suggestions so you can keep your bitching to a minimum

It's good for your health
Oh, I know. Don't misread my post, I genuinely appreciate your feedback - it's really great that you're taking the time to give me a sense check, and to cause me to reflect on the content of my posts. We all need that from time to time, and I'm certainly no exception.

But, the conclusion that I've come to is - still - I'll do whatever I like, whenever I like, and I'll contribute to the discussion in any way that I see fit. Just as the people I was replying to should. Just as you should.

If you don't like that, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you need to go do some knitting or something, and get your mind off the forums for a bit.
 
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Papacheeks

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ahahhaha your takes are always amazingly entertaining.
Those 207 millions subscribers are laughing at you so hard that you could become deaf from the loud noise

Netflix has been around for longer than any other service and in every country in terms of availability.

Disney + has been out little over a year and has done almost half of those numbers.

A d that would be because of IP. NETFLIX retention numbers are not great. Look at their ups/downs during content drops. They peak at when they have something big like last dance, tiger king, Cobra Kai.

The thing keeping them relevant is how long they have been around and their multi-regional content.
 
Jan 16, 2020
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Oh, I know. Don't misread my post, I genuinely appreciate your feedback - it's really great that you're taking the time to give me a sense check, and to cause me to reflect on the content of my posts. We all need that from time to time, and I'm certainly no exception.

But, the conclusion that I've come to is - still - I'll do whatever I like, whenever I like, and I'll contribute to the discussion in any way that I see fit. Just as the people I was replying to should. Just as you should.

If you don't like that, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you need to go do some knitting or something, and get your mind off the forums for a bit.

Ah I see

You're getting the most out of your freedom on the internet until daddy comes knocking and it's back to being the obedient son

Power to ya
 
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Qaloon

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Those who have these problems with GamePass, in my opinion, seem to be afraid of the paradigm shift that it can cause.

The only reason one would be this concerned with it is because they acknowledge it’s potential to change things for good.

If you think GP is a bad value proposition (and cannot survive long term), why not let the market dictate that? Where is your confidence in the status quo?

I think David and Colin spoke of something to this effect in their conversation. Let GP have a trial by fire. Let’s see what it’s really made of.
 

ZehDon

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Jun 13, 2013
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I get the concern about subscription services decreasing quality - it's the same concern we've seen in the past for other things, some of which largely turned out to be true. I remember way back when DLC was first a thing, and people were concerned it could lead to companies cutting up games to sell the pieces off as "additional content" for inflated prices. They were told that wouldn't happened. And guess what - that absolutely happened. And then it gave birth to USD$250.00 weapon skins and an entire sub-industry built around milking their customers with predatory monetisation mechanics. The concerns were completely justified and the corporate apologists helped make it happen.

All I can say is that subscriptions services are happening one way or another. So, vote with your wallet. Right now, Gamepass is astounding value. I'm on it and I won't be leaving anytime soon. If that changes, and suddenly its no longer worth my money, I'll stop paying for it and go back to buying my games wholesale. I'm not sure what else can be done to promote a healthy service with quality games. With that said, all of the faux concern about "profitability" just reads like fanboy non-sense; people desperately looking for something to dislike. "How can Microsoft possibly stay afloat? Won't someone think of the corporations!!" I'll let trillion dollar companies worry about their bottom line, and I'll worry about how the fuck I'm supposed to find time to play all of the games they're handing out.
 

DavidGzz

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In 2 years GP will be at 50 mil subs if not more. There is no profit now but there will be eventually. MS can eat the cost for a long time until then. Sony may not be able to and will eventually be a distant second because of it.
 
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In 2 years GP will be at 50 mil subs if not more. There is no profit now but there will be eventually. MS can eat the cost for a long time until then. Sony may not be able to and will eventually be a distant second because of it.

$500m/yr in revenue is nowhere even close to paying for the operating costs of all the developers they now own

distant second is fantasy talk. Microsoft has never made it beyond a close third at best, and most generations were distant third
 
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DavidGzz

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$500m/yr in revenue is nowhere even close to paying for the operating costs of all the developers they now own

It's only one way they make money. They still sell games outright. Games leave GP monthly or so, those games are 20% off. People will buy them before they lose that discount. I still bought RE8, Dark Alliance, etc on their store. They are getting that plus my GP money. It keeps people in their ecosystem. It sells consoles.

Edit: Besides, 50 mil is nothing compared to how it will snowball during the course of the generation.
 
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It's only one way they make money. They still sell games outright. Games leave GP monthly or so, those games are 20% off. People will buy them before they lose that discount. I still bought RE8, Dark Alliance, etc on their store. They are getting that plus my GP money. It keeps people in their ecosystem. It sells consoles.

the more popular GP becomes the less anyone is going to buy their games at all
 

elliot5

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$500m/yr in revenue is nowhere even close to paying for the operating costs of all the developers they now own

distant second is fantasy talk. Microsoft has never made it beyond a close third at best, and most generations were distant third
Homie where are you getting the metric of $500M / yr in revenue from game pass if subs are 50 million? That's $500 Million estimated a MONTH. That's six BILLION a year in revenue from the subscription alone. You don't think 6 billion is enough to cover the costs of their operations? For games that take multiple years to make? On top of the other cuts and sales and Steam sales and all that?
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Homie where are you getting the metric of $500M / yr in revenue from game pass if subs are 50 million? That's $500 Million estimated a MONTH. That's six BILLION a year in revenue from the subscription alone. You don't think 6 billion is enough to cover the costs of their operations? For games that take multiple years to make? On top of the other cuts and sales and Steam sales and all that?

aren’t most people paying hardly anything for GP due to deals?
 

elliot5

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aren’t most people paying hardly anything for GP due to deals?
lmfao always the classic response. who knows? who cares? Those deals are first use only and your average joe isn't doing a brazil VPN Gold to Ultimate 3 year conversion trick.

Even then, Microsoft got you tied to the ecosystem for 3 years and got an upfront cost of like $180 on top of your console sale. I'm sure they're real choked up about that.
 
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Derktron

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I remember this was a thing for Netflix, people were really downplaying it then come to find out Netlfix was a giant in tv/movie streaming. The people who are complaining are just old farts who don't like changes.
 

MonarchJT

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$500m/yr in revenue is nowhere even close to paying for the operating costs of all the developers they now own

distant second is fantasy talk. Microsoft has never made it beyond a close third at best, and most generations were distant third
objectively false ..ps3 era happened Sony closed with 9+ billion debt ..it took half of PS4 era to make up for losses. Ending distant third in the thing that companies care most about. Earnings
 
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lmfao always the classic response. who knows? who cares? Those deals are first use only and your average joe isn't doing a brazil VPN Gold to Ultimate 3 year conversion trick.

Even then, Microsoft got you tied to the ecosystem for 3 years and got an upfront cost of like $180 on top of your console sale. I'm sure they're real choked up about that.

Who cares? That's an important detail. If those deals evaporate, you're far less likely to get to 50M subs.

Regardless, that's still a wildly optimistic projection, and the revenue even in the best case scenario does not travel as far as you think with all the studios Microsoft now has payroll for, and the deals they have to strike with third parties to put games on GP. Zenimax alone is 2,300 employees. It costs a lot of money to pay for the real estate, energy, capital equipment, travel, and payroll costs per employee.
 

Arsic

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Gamepass is great for me as a PC player.

Don't have to buy a xbox

Don't have to buy xbox first party games

All new releases from their studios are day one on PC and usually with cross play to the box/steam .

Plenty of great third party new releases Im nterested in for a wait for sale buy I can try on day one.

Games I was interested in the past from third parties I didn't try are there to explore.


-----

As a PS5 , PC, and Switch owner I've probably tried the most new games specifically from Gamepass offerings.

With Bethesda in the loop that means even more games I'll for sure want to try.

Ultimately I save a metric ton of money a year /overall and get more great games to play. I'm all for it.
 
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elliot5

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Who cares? That's an important detail. If those deals evaporate, you're far less likely to get to 50M subs.

Regardless, that's still a wildly optimistic projection, and the revenue even in the best case scenario does not travel as far as you think with all the studios Microsoft now has payroll for, and the deals they have to strike with third parties to put games on GP. Zenimax alone is 2,300 employees. It costs a lot of money to pay for the real estate, energy, capital equipment, travel, and payroll costs per employee.
Are you? Microsoft will just have sales or bundles to get people hooked. It's up to them to figure out how to retain users.

I'm really not that worried about the logistics of how Microsoft is paying their staff. They're capable of figuring that out. If ZeniMax staff was a concern Microsoft could have consolidated the publishing arms, but they didn't. They're a multi trillion dollar company it'll be ok
 
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Are you? Microsoft will just have sales or bundles to get people hooked. It's up to them to figure out how to retain users.

I'm really not that worried about the logistics of how Microsoft is paying their staff. They're capable of figuring that out. If ZeniMax staff was a concern Microsoft could have consolidated the publishing arms, but they didn't. They're a multi trillion dollar company it'll be ok

Yeah, it'll be ok, until it's not. The investment environment right now may not be the same as it is 5 years from now. Times change. It wasn't too long ago the Microsoft seriously considered exiting Xbox altogether because management did not see a viable path to profitability. And they have openly admitted in court that they are still nowhere near profitable.

All it takes is for earnings to miss projections for a few quarters for investors to take a more critical eye to less profitable portions of their business.
 
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Alex Scott

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lmfao always the classic response. who knows? who cares? Those deals are first use only and your average joe isn't doing a brazil VPN Gold to Ultimate 3 year conversion trick.

Even then, Microsoft got you tied to the ecosystem for 3 years and got an upfront cost of like $180 on top of your console sale. I'm sure they're real choked up about that.
I have subscribed to gamepass recently with that 1 dollar deal. But i had gamepass subscription before with the same 1 dollar month deal then i cancel the subscription before the month was over and now i am subscribed again with the recent one dollar deal with the same account.

So it is not for new users only. It is also for returning customers
 

MonarchJT

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Yeah, it'll be ok, until it's not. The investment environment right now may not be the same as it is 5 years from now. Times change. It wasn't too long ago the Microsoft seriously considered exiting Xbox altogether because management did not see a viable path to profitability. And they have openly admitted in court that they are still nowhere near profitable.

All it takes is for earnings to miss projections for a few quarters for investors to take a more critical eye to less profitable portions of their business.
if Sony is still here after the colossal economic failure of the ps3 .. despite not having the immensely greater economic resources of Microsoft. There is nothing to worry about, and it is clear that yours is only concern trolling
 

jonnyp

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Some good points here:

  • Subscription services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video didn't affect the quality of movies and TV shows. If anything the quality got better based on the number of awards streaming services are winning (the Best Picture winner this year was on Hulu).
  • He spends time talking about the budget of big games from places like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could fade away and how the riskier games will probably move to sub services.
  • People like Druckmann and Kojima could defect to things like PS Now and GamePass for more freedom to be creative.

Movies and TV shows got better? On which planet and in which dimension?
 

Fredrik

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What’s the point in being concerned? Just enjoy the service as long as it’s there. I’m barely buying any games at all and I’m playing more games than ever.

You think I would’ve bought Snow Runners? No. But now it’s just sitting there waiting to be installed and my son love big vehicles so now we’re playing it and it’s jolly good fun.

Same thing with New Super Lucky’s Tale, playing with my kids, soon finished, wouldn’t have touched it without GP.

Can’t deal with scary games. Yet The Medium was my first XSX playthrough because why not? It’s there. Why not try it at least?

Call of the Sea. Looked so good in trailers. Installed it, had the whole family laughing at the slow speed. Uninstalled it 30 minutes later. Phew, saves some money because of GP.

Mud Runners. Same as Snow Runners. Fun game to play with the kids. Would never buy it.

MLB the Show. I don’t play sports games. But why not try it at least? So I did, because of GP.

NHL21. Same thing. Tried it, quite fun, would never buy it.

Etc etc etc etc etc etc

Plus, all the games I definitely would’ve bought but now didn’t have to buy. It’s so good and you all are really missing out while sitting there being concerned.
 

linkent

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The one most important factor that is still mysterious is how the gamepass model pay the developers.

If it paid based on time duration played, then it will push game development towards gaas model.
More games like AC with huge world and unnecessary side quests.
More episodic games.
Less one time complete and done game.
 

Chukhopops

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The one most important factor that is still mysterious is how the gamepass model pay the developers.

If it paid based on time duration played, then it will push game development towards gaas model.
More games like AC with huge world and unnecessary side quests.
More episodic games.
Less one time complete and done game.
The GP model is not based on time played:

« OnLive, for example - they said you can have your game on our service and we're going to attract a lot of customers, and we're going to deliver you money based on how many hours people play the game. Now at Paradox, we loved that business model, because people play our games for three or four thousand hours. While the Game Pass model to us is still a decent model, we think we're not getting paid enough, because people play our games more than they play very single-player driven narratives. »

It’s mostly based on a one time fee for a specific duration, and for indies it’s MS paying the developer directly for the dev cost, with some variable part on top:

« The open house itself went really well, if not pretty overwhelming," Gooden recalled. "After the ID@Xbox open house, I got a few little hints that I was going to get a Game Pass deal, but I didn't really know what that meant or what it involved.

"It was formally offered in October 2019, and it was pretty huge. It's still the biggest financial deal I've ever gotten, to the point where I had to ask them to repeat the numbers on the phone call."

Gooden was unable to disclose the precise details of the deal, but he did say it included "upfront support" in addition to a licensing fee. In the conference chatstream, Gooden said there is "a bonus system of sorts, too," but he didn't offer any more information on the terms. In addition, he will be able to release She Dreams Elsewhere on PC, with the one stipulation being that its launch on Game Pass happens the same day or earlier. »


Nothing to be concerned about here, isn’t that great?
 

Godot25

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Have movies and TV shows actually gotten better though?

The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Breaking Bad.

Have any shows risen to those levels in the Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu era?

And where are the Shawshank Redemptions? The Godfathers, The Schindler's List during the Netflix, Hulu era? It feels like the industry has gotten fat on superhero schlock and John Wick copy cats.
I mean. Didn't Scorsese had basically unlimited budget to make Irishman? Fact that movie didn't live up to the hype of Godfellas is certainly not Netflix's fault.
 

ZywyPL

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The quality of the content will always vary from title to title, doesn't matter if it comes from radio stations, TV, cinemas, physical/digital distribution, streaming services, subscriptions etc.
 

davidjaffe

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Netflix bought the Irishman, didn’t fund it. They got trial of the Chicago 7 because of COVID making a theatrical release unrealistic. Parasite was again acquired after a long Korean theatrics run. Nomad land is a 5$ million dollar film that wasn’t funded by any streaming service, simply paid for afterwards. Roma again was funded in Mexico.
You are only driving in his point further when every film you listed was made for theaters initially with streaming coming later.

Netflix made and funded movies and tv shows largely are ass.
So, you just type things...no worry they may not be truth?

Interesting.

I understand.

Here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...er-netflix-oscars-box-office/?sh=377e6bad57d9


And here is a picture if you don't like the words so much:

Beyond that, the idea that there is no parallel between NETFLIX and Game Sub Services because Netflix spent money to acquire but NOT fund the initial film? The game business is filled with things that were fully or partially funded before they wound up at their final location. A few examples:

CRASH BANDICOOT, BRUTAL LEGEND, and WHAT REMAINS OF EDITH FINCH, to name just a few.

Are you suggesting that the end consumer makes their decision about how much they enjoy a sub service- be it game or movie- based upon how the movie that is exclusive to said sub service was financed?
 
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JerryinSoCal

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Some good points here:

  • Subscription services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video didn't affect the quality of movies and TV shows. If anything the quality got better based on the number of awards streaming services are winning (the Best Picture winner this year was on Hulu).
  • He spends time talking about the budget of big games from places like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica could fade away and how the riskier games will probably move to sub services.
  • People like Druckmann and Kojima could defect to things like PS Now and GamePass for more freedom to be creative.
His comparison to netflix is flawed, Netflix puts out new content like crazy and a lot of it is shit, MS will never have the bandwidth to release new games monthly or even semi monthly and if they do get to where they release a new AA game every 4 monthos or so what kind of quality will we be talking about? many of those studios they picked up were struggling financially and were what would be considered AA at best not only that but a few of them were only working on xbox games anyway and the Bethesda stuff isn't a real addition because those games would have come to xbox anyway, they are just taking traditional multiplatform games away from other platforms but as an xbox user you aren't really benefitting from that.

How much will the price for the service go up once they can say they are supporting it with new content? and don't fool yourselves into thinking the price won't go up because it will and it has to, Netflix has raised their prices several times. Netflix has a huge amount of content provided by other movie studios as well as buying international content that was being made already and branding it as a netflix show. You can make several seasons of a hit show in less time and for less money than a AA or AAA game. Halo infinite started production in 2015-2016 and it's not releasing until this fall and they had a HUGE team working on it. I have GPU so don't come at me with "you are just a hater" No I'm someone who actually buys games I'm interested in at launch, this is mostly indie style AA games and a lot of 360 games that I've already played in the past, those aren't the kinds of games that I buy a $500 console to play.
 
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reksveks

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Jun 4, 2020
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The comparison to movies/tv shows is a bit weird as the distributor/production company relationship isn't the same as publisher/developer. In certain financial levels, it behaves differently to the blockbusters/AAA level.

If Kojima's next game is on Xbox gamepass and is episodic, then I think Gamepass clearly allows a certain type of Game Dev to have more freedom. I can see Xbox wanting to fund the gaming equivalent of Auteurs.

Also the financial comparison to Netflix is less than useful, it's not Netflix but Amazon Prime Video. Netflix isnt able to monetize users outside of the subscription service, Amazon can and Microsoft clearly hope to.
 
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