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[ACESHIGH]

"general standards" cover shooters with sad dads or empowered angry females to win accolades with the going press a.k.a Hollywood rejects.

Goalposts are always moved when it comes to Microsoft.

 

[Justin9mm]

Ah so you're back-pedling your statement by saying Flight Simulator is not considered a game. And what do you mean it wasn't made exclusive for the Xbox gamer? Is that a new disqualifier meant to downplay it? These moving-goal-posts might as well be named Speedy Gonzalez.

I didn't back pedal anything.. If you can't understand what I said then it's not my problem.

You are just salty because I perceived to say something negative about Xbox.

 

[Justin9mm]

You wrote "but Flight Simulator is not considered a game by general standards" - so yes, you said that. And no, I don't know what you mean by "general standards".. that's why I'm asking you.

I'm in my 30's, but still going strong. I'm not anti Sony neither, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you what you mean, when you say FS2020 doesn't live up to the general standards that define a game.

It's a simulator, so it is not considered a game by general standards but a simulator, do you even understand the difference?

It doesn't fit the normal definitions of a game marketed for the casual gamer. You know, an action adventure, first person shooter, racing game etc. Why do I waste my time on people with low IQ.

 

[M1chl]

Seriously, your just trying to start an argument.

Its a simulator and a great simulator and yes its a game but the general standard being a game that is not marketed for the general majority of console gamers. There's no defined standards, its just common sense.

Maybe before trying put your 2 cents in you should research for yourself who the demographics are for the Xbox console.

In this case, sims like GT Sport is out of the "game" section. Which in my case, fair enough, however they are should definitely be part of the their line-up of gaming software. MSFS 2020 same with GT Sport does not have chance of winning the Goty, but that does not mean, they don't have place in gaming landscape.

 

[TBiddy]

It's a simulator, so it is not considered a game by general standards but a simulator, do you even understand the difference?

I'll try again. Which 'general standards' are we talking about and what are the definitions?

 

[Justin9mm]

In this case, sims like GT Sport is out of the "game" section. Which in my case, fair enough, however they are should definitely be part of the their line-up of gaming software. MSFS 2020 same with GT Sport does not have chance of winning the Goty, but that does not mean, they don't have place in gaming landscape.

GT Sport is not even remotely the same. That's not a real simulator. Get real.

Flight Simulator is an actual simulator, it's so true to the tee that you could almost call it an instructional video of how to fly.

 

[M1chl]

GT Sport is not even remotely the same. That's not a real simulator. Get real.

What's the difference then, where you would draw the line?

 

[Justin9mm]

I'll try again. Which 'general standards' are we talking about and what are the definitions?

Look it up

 

[Justin9mm]

What's the difference then, where you would draw the line?

There is no line to draw, they are completely different.

 

[M1chl]

There is no line to draw, they are completely different.

I am convinced then.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

The amount of negative user scores on this and Flight Sim where the user has only scored this a 0 and Last of Us 2 a 10 is hilarious.

Hundreds.

 

[Vasto]

Battletoads is a blast!

 

[Warnen]

The amount of negative user scores on this and Flight Sim where the user has only scored this a 0 and Last of Us 2 a 10 is hilarious.

Hundreds.

 

[TBiddy]

Look it up

Searching for "General Standards Game" yields nothing of interest, outside of gambling legislation.

Cambridge defines "Video Game" as a game in which the player controls moving pictures on a screen by pressing buttons.

FS2020 definitely lives up to that. Do you have another better definition?

I am convinced then.

Yeah, the arguments are pristine, indeed..

 

[GHG]

In this case, sims like GT Sport is out of the "game" section. Which in my case, fair enough, however they are should definitely be part of the their line-up of gaming software. MSFS 2020 same with GT Sport does not have chance of winning the Goty, but that does not mean, they don't have place in gaming landscape.

GT Sport isn't a sim though.

What Justin9mm is getting at is that Flight Sim 2020 is the Rfactor 2 equivalent of flight sims and it's intended audience cannot be considered to be mainstream.

It's a simulation before it is a game. There is very little structure and fundamentally you need to have self motivation and have a general interest in flying (or learning the fundamentals of flying) in order to get decent milage out of it. People who are used to and require gamification in order to maintain an interest will be left wanting.

Other than the handful of tutorials and landing challenges it's quite literally pick a plane, pick an airport to take off from, pick a destination, and go flying. No xp meters to fill, no fancy noise or reward when you get to your destination, nothing. You've got to like the experience for what it is.

As a "game", when it sees the light of day on Xbox consoles, its something most gamers will load up a couple of times to gawk at the graphics because it's available on gamepass but beyond that it won't get much playtime from most users on the platform. That's not it's intended audience though so it's fine.

It's a good thing that flight sim is getting this much exposure and attention from an audience that wouldn't otherwise look at something like this. It's an amazing flight sim, a groundbreaking technical achievement, but let's be honest, if this game wasn't an Xbox studios game would it have this much coverage here?

 

[M1chl]

GT Sport isn't a sim though.

What Justin9mm is getting at is that Flight Sim 2020 is the Rfactor 2 equivalent of flight sims and it's intended audience cannot be considered to be mainstream.

It's a simulation before it is a game. There is very little structure and fundamentally you need to have self motivation and have a general interest in flying (or learning the fundamentals of flying) in order to get decent milage out of it. People who are used to and require gamification in order to maintain an interest will be left wanting.

Other than the handful of tutorials and landing challenges it's quite literally pick a plane, pick an airport to take off from, pick a destination, and go flying. No xp meters to fill, no fancy noise or reward when you get to your destination, nothing. You've got to like the experience for what it is.

As a "game", when it sees the light of day on Xbox consoles, its something most gamers will load up a couple of times to gawk at the graphics because it's available in gamepass but beyond that it won't get much playtime.

It's a good thing that flight sim is getting this much exposure and attention from an audience that wouldn't otherwise look at something like this. It's an amazing flight sim, a groundbreaking technical achievement, but let's be honest, if this game wasn't an Xbox studios game would it have this much coverage here?

Oh, then now it make sense, that is not some objective-based game then. You don't have to be first or anything like that, just pick the plane a fly. However that's not the say they will not anything in the future, because being on GamePass this sort of engagement mechanic is probably need for it to be sustained, but so far and with legacy of this title. Sure your argument makes complete sense, thanks for explanation : )

However even now, there are landing challenges, etc. So it definitely has some "game" into it.

 

[Justin9mm]

GT Sport isn't a sim though.

What Justin9mm is getting at is that Flight Sim 2020 is the Rfactor 2 equivalent of flight sims and it's intended audience cannot be considered to be mainstream.

It's a simulation before it is a game. There is very little structure and fundamentally you need to have self motivation and have a general interest in flying (or learning the fundamentals of flying) in order to get decent milage out of it. People who are used to and require gamification in order to maintain an interest will be left wanting.

Other than the handful of tutorials and landing challenges it's quite literally pick a plane, pick an airport to take off from, pick a destination, and go flying. No xp meters to fill, no fancy noise or reward when you get to your destination, nothing. You've got to like the experience for what it is.

As a "game", when it sees the light of day on Xbox consoles, its something most gamers will load up a couple of times to gawk at the graphics because it's available on gamepass but beyond that it won't get much playtime from most users on the platform. That's not it's intended audience though so it's fine.

It's a good thing that flight sim is getting this much exposure and attention from an audience that wouldn't otherwise look at something like this. It's an amazing flight sim, a groundbreaking technical achievement, but let's be honest, if this game wasn't an Xbox studios game would it have this much coverage here?

Well said!

 

[phil_t98]

Well said!

Just curious to what that means on the box art?

 

[Justin9mm]

Just curious to what that means on the box art?

It means that it is not FS2020.

 

[GHG]

Oh, then now it make sense, that is not some objective-based game then. You don't have to be first or anything like that, just pick the plane a fly. However that's not the say they will not anything in the future, because being on GamePass this sort of engagement mechanic is probably need for it to be sustained, but so far and with legacy of this title. Sure your argument makes complete sense, thanks for explanation : )

However even now, there are landing challenges, etc. So it definitely has some "game" into it.

Honestly I think they will be using the time between the PC release and the console release to add some more structural elements add more assists and improve the controller support. They will need to add events, challenges, achievements, even possibly some sort of career mode for this to have any sort of longevity on console.

Because without those things the audience on console are going to be like wtf is this.

You can get away with it on the PC because people with experience with flight simulators know what to expect but your average gamer who is looking for a controller friendly pick up and play experience? This isn't that.

It's funny that Gran Turismo was mentioned because when they literally stripped away the "game" elements and focused in on actual racing with GT Sport there was a huge outcry. On PC that's fine, rFactor has no career mode, iracing is literally just racing but console gamers have different expectations, even if it comes at the expense of realism.

Project Cars 3 is about to release and they've stripped away the simulation elements and thrown in a bunch of "gamey" elements (xp bars, in game currency, more forgiving handling, better controller support, etc), and suffice to say the sim racing community on PC is not happy. But it's clear why they've done it, they are chasing the mainstream Forza/GT audience.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Flight Sim (if anything) to try and make it also appeal to the more mainstream audience.

 

[Demon2blades]

It's a simulator, so it is not considered a game by general standards but a simulator, do you even understand the difference?

It doesn't fit the normal definitions of a game marketed for the casual gamer. You know, an action adventure, first person shooter, racing game etc. Why do I waste my time on people with low IQ.

I'm sure gran turismo is also called "the real driving simulator" as part of the title or something it's pretty much the same thing being a simulator as fs2020 it's absolutely a game .

 

[GHG]

Just curious to what that means on the box art?

That's called marketing.

It's a tagline that has existed since the start of the series. At the time of the first release in 1997 that was accurate. There was nothing else like it out there at the time in terms of car physics and it was the benchmark for the whole genre. The only thing that came close at the time was GP2 but that only contained a single racing discipline.

The landscape has long since changed and the tagline is nowhere near as accurate or relevant as it once was.

 

[Justin9mm]

I'm sure gran turismo is also called "the real driving simulator" as part of the title or something it's pretty much the same thing being a simulator as fs2020 it's absolutely a game .

You really don't understand. It's been explained already, its not the same thing.

 

[Demon2blades]

You really don't understand. It's been explained already, its not the same thing.

Mate it's still a game no matter how people word it or make it seem like it isn't the next GT will be a sim racer aswell GT had always been about seriousness even Sony class GT as a sim don't they ?

 

[phil_t98]

That's called marketing.

It's a tagline that has existed since the start of the series. At the time of the first release in 1997 that was accurate. There was nothing else like it out there at the time in terms of car physics and it was the benchmark for the whole genre. The only thing that came close at the time was GP2 but that only contained a single racing discipline.

The landscape has long since changed and the tagline is nowhere near as accurate or relevant as it once was.

It’s kinda funny because the car and physics have improved 10 times over since the game was first released but it was more accurate back then?

just to call in on this debate a pilot or a racing car driver would call them both games

 

[Mmnow]

I mean, all else aside, what do you actually benefit from Flight Simulator not being a "traditional game".

You can all argue all day about whether it's a game or not, but let's say it's not... What happens then? You sleep better knowing the competitor's 90+ rated title doesn't count? It's so niche we shouldn't count it in the discussion on first party games?

 

[GHG]

It’s kinda funny because the car and physics have improved 10 times over since the game was first released but it was more accurate back then?

just to call in on this debate a pilot or a racing car driver would call them both games

Are you purposefully being obtuse or something?

the time of the first release in 1997 that was accurate. There was nothing else like it out there at the time in terms of car physics and it was the benchmark for the whole genre. The only thing that came close at the time was GP2 but that only contained a single racing discipline.

The landscape has long since changed and the tagline is nowhere near as accurate or relevant as it once was.

It's about where the game was relative to the competition at the time of it's release. That statement was accurate then because it was arguably the best "simulator" on the market. It was undoubtedly the best "simulator" available on consoles at the time - by quite some distance.

Things have since changed, more games have been released, other studios and platforms have made advances. It's no longer the de facto simulator but they still use the tag line because it's synonymous with the series.

I mean, all else aside, what do you actually benefit from Flight Simulator not being a "traditional game".

You can all argue all day about whether it's a game or not, but let's say it's not... What happens then? You sleep better knowing the competitor's 90+ rated title doesn't count? It's so niche we shouldn't count it in the discussion on first party games?

I don't think that's what he was getting at. Some of you are seeing war and adversity where there is none.

 

[phil_t98]

Are you purposefully being obtuse or something?



It's about where the game was relative to the competition at the time of it's release. That statement was accurate then because it was arguably the best "simulator" on the market. It was undoubtedly the best "simulator" available on consoles at the time - by quite some distance.

Things have since changed, more games have been released, other studios and platforms have made advances. It's no longer the de facto simulator but they still use the tag line because it's synonymous with the series.

So the competition in terms of gran tourism you dont class as games ? So like project cars isn’t a game?

 

[Mmnow]

I don't think that's what he was getting at. Some of you are seeing war and adversity where there is none.

I asked what difference it made. If there's any other benefit asides from talking down or othering a highly rated Microsoft game, I'd love to hear it?

 

[Pasta]

You guys are really good. I forgot what thread I was in.

 

[GHG]

So the competition in terms of gran tourism you dont class as games ? So like project cars isn’t a game?

There are varying degrees to all of this. If you were to rank the modern titles in terms of realism it would go something like this (most realistic to least):

• rFactor 2
• Automobilista
• Assetto Corsa Competizione (GT3/GT4 only)
• Assetto Corsa
• Iracing
• Live For Speed
• Raceroom
• Automobilista 2
• Project Cars 2
• F1 2019/2020
• GT Sport/Forza Motorsport
• The rest

Real racing teams use the rfactor/automobilista/Assetto Corsa platforms for their simulators.

Real pilots and airlines use the Flight Simulator and X-Plane platforms for their simulators.

In terms of ranking Project Cars is very much a "game". It's not very realistic in a number of elements but for someone who has only ever played GT or Forza it will be seen as a step up.

I asked what difference it made. If there's any other benefit asides from talking down or othering a highly rated Microsoft game, I'd love to hear it?

It makes no difference. I'm not seeing anyone say it does. There's been a discussion around whether it should be considered a "game" or not and that's about it. None of that detracts from the quality of the title or the impact that it's had.

 

[phil_t98]

There are varying degrees to all of this. If you were to rank the modern titles in terms of realism it would go something like this (most realistic to least):

• rFactor 2
• Automobilista
• Assetto Corsa Competizione (GT3/GT4 only)
• Assetto Corsa
• Iracing
• Live For Speed
• Automobilista 2
• Project Cars 2
• F1 2019/2020
• GT Sport/Forza Motorsport
• The rest

Real racing teams use the rfactor/automobilista/Assetto Corsa platforms for their simulators.

Real pilots and airlines use the Flight Simulator and X-Plane platforms for their simulators.

In terms of ranking Project Cars is very much a "game". It's not very realistic in a number of elements but for someone who has only ever played GT or Forza it will be seen as a step up.



It makes no difference. I'm not seeing anyone say it does. There's been a discussion around whether it should be considered a "game" or not and that's about it. None of that detracts from the quality of the title or the impact that it's had.

Real f1 drivers have used the f1 game to learn the tracks, its still a game


But Battletoads is a fun game

 

[GHG]

Real f1 drivers have used the f1 game to learn the tracks, its still a game

...?

Did I ever say that was a simulator?

What is your end game here? Do you want a discussion or are you just trolling?

 

[phil_t98]

...?

Did I ever say that was a simulator?

What is your end game here? Do you want a discussion or are you just trolling?

Your the one in the battletoads thread talking about other games?

 

[GHG]

Your the one in the battletoads thread talking about other games?

Hey, you were the one asking questions. I thought you wanted genuine answers, apparently not.

You can get back to talking about battletoads now.

 

[phil_t98]

Hey, you were the one asking questions. I thought you wanted genuine answers, apparently not.

You can get back to talking about battletoads now.

Keep the thread on track maybe? There is a flight sim thread to?

 

[Mmnow]

It makes no difference. I'm not seeing anyone say it does. There's been a discussion around whether it should be considered a "game" or not and that's about it. None of that detracts from the quality of the title or the impact that it's had.

Nonsense. This discussion started because someone said they thought Flight Simulator was better than anything Sony had done this generation. It was a response to someone saying "Microsoft's games are okay, but Sony are in another league and Microsoft need to do better".

If you really think this has nothing to do with console warring, you're not paying attention to the guy whose opinion you've spent multiple posts defending.

 

[GHG]

Nonsense. This discussion started because someone said they thought Flight Simulator was better than anything Sony had done this generation. It was a response to someone saying "Microsoft's games are okay, but Sony are in another league and Microsoft need to do better".

If you really think this has nothing to do with console warring, you're not paying attention to the guy whose opinion you've spent multiple posts defending.

This is the post you guys all got your panties in a twist about (which then started this whole discussion about simulators):

I agree with you but Flight Simulator is not considered a game by general standards and was historically a PC game, it's not like it was made exclusively for the Xbox gamer. It's an Xbox title because obviously Microsoft.

My comment was more Sony delivering this whole generation in general in comparison to Xbox. Flight Simulator alone does not make up for it.

One which he agreed with the following statement:

Flight Simulator 2020 is above anything Sony has delivered. And not just from a technical and visual standpoint. The mere nature of the genre, coupled with the previous, is attracting a lot non-gamers into the fold who are simply curious and fascinated by it.

So you tell me who went looking for arguments.

I'm also willing to bet that all of the people who felt aggrieved by that post haven't even played FS 2020. Frustrated bunch.

 

[Coney]

It's amusing that the same people that are downplaying Flight Simulator probably praised the UE5 tech demo.

 

[Mmnow]

This is the post you guys all got your panties in a twist about (which then started this whole discussion about simulators):



One which he agreed with the following statement:



So you tell me who went looking for arguments.

I'm also willing to bet that all of the people who felt aggrieved by that post haven't even played FS 2020. Frustrated bunch.

Who's aggrieved? I'm not aggrieved. I think it's funny you don't think that post you quoted isn't obvious in its intent. Hell, he clearly said it in his bottom paragraph

You missed out his post before that one, by the way, where he says the likes of Ori and Flight Simulator are nice, but...

And again, what does it even matter? Why do you care so much whether it's a game, if its better than what Sony can offer? What do you care if we're all in here, aggrieved?

 

[GHG]

Who's aggrieved? I'm not aggrieved. I think it's funny you don't think that post you quoted isn't obvious in its intent. Hell, he clearly said it in his bottom paragraph

You missed out his post before that one, by the way, where he says the likes of Ori and Flight Simulator are nice, but...

And again, what does it even matter? Why do you care so much whether it's a game, if its better than what Sony can offer? What do you care if we're all in here, aggrieved?

but... Microsoft should do better? They should. If they were consistently releasing Flight Sim and Ori tier games then there would be no argument, regardless of what Sony is or isn't doing.

There is literally nothing incorrect in what he said. If you see that as a problem then you are part of the problem.

 

[Journey]

It's a simulator, so it is not considered a game by general standards but a simulator, do you even understand the difference?

It doesn't fit the normal definitions of a game marketed for the casual gamer. You know, an action adventure, first person shooter, racing game etc. Why do I waste my time on people with low IQ.

Gran Turismo is ... not... a... game...

Oh Noez!

 

[Mmnow]

but... Microsoft should do better? They should. If they were consistently releasing Flight Sim and Ori tier games then there would be no argument, regardless of what Sony is or isn't doing.

There is literally nothing incorrect in what he said. If you see that as a problem then you are part of the problem.

Funny, I think the problem is people using highly subjective opinions as facts. See every "HAHA, RIP Microsoft" posts in this thread.

The fact is, Microsoft have had a pretty great year critically. They've had an pretty great month and by the end of this week it'll be a bonefide brilliant month.

So what are we discussing here? That we hope they keep doing what they're doing? Because I'd be thrilled with that.

But that's not what you mean.

 

[Nikana]

Gran Turismo is ... not... a... game...

Oh Noez!

All you do is drive in circles. What a dumb fucking game!

 

[Warnen]

ITT:

troll OP
majority of people playing to game like it
majority of people never going to play it hate it
”Sims anit games“

 

[yurinka]

I played the 1st act, an as a fan of the beat'em up genre I think the game is very good. I think they did a great job updating the game to the modern times, even with the visuals (which I hated when they revealed the game).

Metacritic right now is 73 with 42 scores, which I agree (I'd give it even a bit more, maybe 8/10).

 

[GHG]

Funny, I think the problem is people using highly subjective opinions as facts. See every "HAHA, RIP Microsoft" posts in this thread.

The fact is, Microsoft have had a pretty great year critically. They've had an pretty great month and by the end of this week it'll be a bonefide brilliant month.

So what are we discussing here? That we hope they keep doing what they're doing? Because I'd be thrilled with that.

But that's not what you mean.

Keep making stuff at the standard of Flight Sim 2020 and Ori, less stuff at the standard of Battletoads. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

But hey, if you'd rather more things like Battletoads then go for your life.

 

[MaulerX]

I didn't back pedal anything.. If you can't understand what I said then it's not my problem.

You are just salty because I perceived to say something negative about Xbox.

You're the one being salty for being called out about a ridiculous statement. There are no general standards. It not been developed "exclusively for Xbox" does not take away from any of its merits. It's something genuinely refreshing that has garnered many accolades and it's a nice change of pace from the typical single player walking simulators that you're alluding to.

 

[Mmnow]

Keep making stuff at the standard of Flight Sim 2020 and Ori, less stuff at the standard of Battletoads. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

But hey, if you'd rather more things like Battletoads then go for your life.

What's wrong with Battletoads? It's a fairly well reviewed game that most people seem to like for what it is in the middle of, what, four varied first party releases this month?

You wanna talk about "the problem", this weird standard is the problem. I've got the feeling Microsoft will be releasing three ~85 games just this month. I'm being conservative there, but you can never guess these things.

But apparently the 73 rated title that people are enjoying is the one you want to set as the rule, despite proof in this very thread to the contrary. Why is that I wonder?

 

[Raziel]

Op updated for the people that still need it.