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Are open world games without world simulation really just useless overall?

#Phonepunk#

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all the open world games I played in the last few years did not need to be open world at all. They are constrained to instances and triggers.
They are basically just time fillers as the path to the next instance is set for you. They all could just be icons on the map that you selected and the games would not be any different.
i don't really understand what OP is saying. they say "open world games do not need to be open world at all". ok then what should they be? what are you suggesting otherwise?

do you think they should all take place in tinier maps? you can't go off and decide to do a side quest in Witcher III, the map is only as big as the current quest? how on Earth would this work? would you use invisible walls? no more exploring the entire map in Fallout 4. invisible walls there too, i guess.

this is the problem with your criticism. you don't offer any examples of what you would like to see. what open world game would you make linear, and how would you do it?

you say Skyrim is "real world simulation" but i have no idea what you mean by that. you think a quest marker popping up is not a triggered event? how come?
They are basically just time fillers as the path to the next instance is set for you. They all could just be icons on the map that you selected and the games would not be any different.
i feel like you are over-thinking or galaxy braining this. tbh im not sure what you are talking about. there is smoke and mirrors in every game. Skyrim is not special here.
Yes. Literally 95% of modern aaa open world games could be linear and nothing would change other than less wasted time playing
i see this sentiment often. what does it mean? people can say this, but nobody has ever explained to me, for instance, how a linear version of a level in Spider-Man works. are you going to remove all the open world traversal? but that's some of the most fun stuff in the game! are you going to force all the missions to be independent maps? then how will you stop the player from leaving the mission? invisible walls? that sounds lame.

also lol if you think any time playing a video game that isn't a linear path to the mission objective is "wasted". this isn't a job. i don't have any more fun if i'm ticking off achievement boxes vs. Spider-Manning across the city.
 
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Watch Dogs 2 - Random NPC stuff

I don't like the game that much but the open world stuff is very well done.
I was once driving through a forest in the game and came across a couple of people sitting around a camp fire. Blew my mind when I first saw it.

It's these things and many more that I hope next gen open world games have. We need to have NPC's react to weather as well. When it starts raining in game, have them scramble for their umbrellas or put on their hoodies or run to the nearest bus shelter or something. These acts make the game world more believable and real. I'd rather have these features over fancy graphics.

Getting People Arrested in Watch Dogs 2 (WD2 Funny Moments)

Just check 2.12 - 3.11 LOL. This is the kind of open world randomness I want to see in next gen games x10.
 
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spawn

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I heard that Ark did that where you could log off the game and still have your character killed and your stuff taken by other players when you're not in the game
 

Shmunter

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Only the illusion is important, what occurs offscreen is irrelevant. In this gen games need to embrace convincing reactions, namely physics and grounded feedback to input and events.

Sadly, last gen Jaguars destroyed an entire generation of advancement and innovation in this realm, and until we break away from last gen we will still be stifled.
 

Guilty_AI

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The best smoke and mirrors in the industry. And, aren’t all advances in the technology of game design a matter of smoke and mirrors? Raytracing, anti-aliasing, artificial intelligence and other elements of fidelity and interaction are all magical tricks to push us closer to a photorealistic and reactive world.
Not the best since its relatively easy to find the cracks. And i should mention...

Games with simulated worlds where not everything is just smoke and mirrors do exist, to higher and lesser degrees. Dwarf Fortress that i mentioned right in the first comment is probably the best example.
There are other games where only some macro aspects of the world are simulated, usually economy or power balance. I believe Elite Dangerous does these.

The issue is that these games with simulated worlds are developed with specific types of public in mind, because living worlds like these "aren't interesting". Almost everything you see happening in the open world of games such as RDR2 are scripted events, and they're made like that because you can make them "interesting" if you have the full control of a scripted event, like finding a bear in a shed or meeting some funny guy.
 

Denton

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Why does everything have to be so god damn hyperbolic.
No, they are not useless. It depends on what is the core focus. Gamedev is always about compromise and opportunity cost.

That said, you should play Kingdom Come, OP. That's a fantastic RPG that actually does go the lenght to simulate into higher detail than most of its competition. And it leads to some awesome stuff. But it was also hell to develop and launched out buggy.
 
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Cyberpunkd

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I mean, sometimes its triggers by the players, but the NPCs have tons of global timers as well, which I would say is like a simulation since they will do it whether you are there or not. I would love to play an Immersive Sim with their engine, perhaps thats what the 007 game will be.

Have you played it?
I am thinking about diving into the Hitman series actually - do these timers reset or when an NPC deviates from the set path they will go back to it after a set amount of time?
 

Jada

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Not the best since its relatively easy to find the cracks. And i should mention...

Games with simulated worlds where not everything is just smoke and mirrors do exist, to higher and lesser degrees. Dwarf Fortress that i mentioned right in the first comment is probably the best example.
There are other games where only some macro aspects of the world are simulated, usually economy or power balance. I believe Elite Dangerous does these.

The issue is that these games with simulated worlds are developed with specific types of public in mind, because living worlds like these "aren't interesting". Almost everything you see happening in the open world of games such as RDR2 are scripted events, and they're made like that because you can make them "interesting" if you have the full control of a scripted event, like finding a bear in a shed or meeting some funny guy.
Not sure what you mean by “scripted,” because RDR2 has a a lot of emergent interaction between Its NPCs that is random, scripted only in the sense that the AI operates according to the rules of the universe set by Rockstar. Roaming its world will see you encounter numerous instances of this.
 

ZywyPL

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The PS4/XB1 received a massive bump in the memory pool compared to PS360, hence the raise of open world and BR games, but at the same time the CPU part took a massive hit, so it is what it is, we have bigger, more detailed worlds, at the price of lack of physics or lackluster AI. So let's hope things will get much better once devs full focus will shifts entirely onto PS5/XSX.
 

Warablo

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I love all the ad's and life and stuff in Cyberpunk, just like GTA. I just hope to explore more mega buildings or interesting locations like the hospital and such.
 
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x@3f*oo_e!

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The best smoke and mirrors in the industry. And, aren’t all advances in the technology of game design a matter of smoke and mirrors? ..
No not necessarily - there's a difference between 'top down AI' and 'bottom up AI'

For example consider an NPC that seems to have daily activities wandering around town/country etc - there are at least two ways to do this
  1. Scripted to visit shop/hunt food etc - pathfinding doess most of the heavy lifting. For hunting it likely cheats and gets given the coords of deer, or even has deer magickally spawned for it [top down]
  2. Programmed with parameters like hunger/thirst etc. Each NPC has own inventory. When hungry AI makes a decision to hunt/shop based on risk/money etc. [bottom up]
I would call 1 smoke and mirrors, 2 much less so.
 
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Guilty_AI

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Not sure what you mean by “scripted,” because RDR2 has a a lot of emergent interaction between Its NPCs that is random, scripted only in the sense that the AI operates according to the rules of the universe set by Rockstar. Roaming its world will see you encounter numerous instances of this.
No it doesn't. Its all specifically designed to be shown to the player. The most "random" or "emergent" stuff you'll find among NPCs of the open world are extremally simple things like broken conversations or quick greetings.

Any event even remotely more complex, like "deeper" dialogues, some guy mugging another, or finding a bear in a shed, are scripted. The game has a random chance of "spawning" these kinds of events when the player is in a certain area. Or they straight up work like missions where the player triggers those events by doing something specific, like entering X building after Y chapter. Theres no advanced AI or complex world simulation here.
 
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Clear

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As Days Gone proves, the key elements are environmental dynamics (ToD and Weather conditions changing enemy behavior) and layers of randomized emergent events to create unpredictability.

The whole point of open-worlds are that there are areas of interest separated by negative space; if you want non-stop action then a mission-type structure is the right way to go, problems start when the balance is off and the world-map is just cluttered with event markers so as to make a mission-type flow seem possible. At which point everything starts to look like busywork and nothing seems meaningful or important.
 
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diffusionx

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No. This isn't an acceptable answer for 95% of people, including hardcore gamers.

There's a gap between "simple" and "complex" that has yet to be filled adequately by a 3D open world game. Dwarf Fortress is complex. It's extremely hardcore. It's also not for everyone.

What I think many people look for is what DF accomplishes in theory, but with a more user-friendly look and feel. I think many people would enjoy DF if it wasn't the lumbering, imposing beast that it is. Whoever finds a way to make it accessible, 3D, and potentially multiplayer will have a hit on their hands.

Rimworld is that game.

Edit: but the point is, nobody is going to build a system like DF or Rimworld or Prison Architect in a third person action adventure with a story. The level of simulation/scripting is dependent on what sort of game you’re making. The stuff you see in RDR2 or Hitman is very carefully scripted to make the world “seem” real but ultimately the games are shuffling you through a linear experience. Having emergent behavior from NPCs in a game like Hitman would ruin it I think.
 
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ethomaz

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Extra space just for extra space is useless.
That is why Open World is not always related with good game design.
 

x@3f*oo_e!

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Edit: but the point is, nobody is going to build a system like DF or Rimworld or Prison Architect in a third person action adventure with a story.

Old-Bethesda would/might -back when Oblivion was new I remember them talking about trying to implement systems that gave NPCs player like agency. How much of that was PR and how far along they got I dunno.

Having emergent behavior from NPCs in a game like Hitman would ruin it I think.
That would be an amazing game..
 

diffusionx

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Old-Bethesda would/might -back when Oblivion was new I remember them talking about trying to implement systems that gave NPCs player like agency. How much of that was PR and how far along they got I dunno.

Oh yes, that was their "radiant AI" IIRC. I heard they scrapped a lot of it, but in game, it was nothing.


That would be an amazing game..

It would be a different game, for a different type of player.

Like people play games like DF and Rimworld to see what sort of weird stuff happens that's a main draw of it. That's not why people play a game like RDR2 or Ghost of Tsushima.
 
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Kuranghi

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I am thinking about diving into the Hitman series actually - do these timers reset or when an NPC deviates from the set path they will go back to it after a set amount of time?

It depends on the situation really. Most of the time they would go back to their pattern I'd say, but if its something thats a big change they might get locked into that, but usually there would be a contextual reason for it.

Say you cause a big ruckus and get caught killing someone, if its near the target they will go into lockdown where they take the target to a specific room and protect them for a minute or two, after which they will go back their routine. If you keep killing poeple loudly near that lockdown location they will move to another one and in some levels eventually they will just leave the level via an exit to protect the target.

To be honest the best thing about the game is discovery, just dive in with no preconceptions and see what you can do, if you try to do it stealthily a first run could take 45 mins or more, then as you repeat the level to see the different scripted kills or do your own "custom kills" and you learn the level in a ground-hog day sort of way - since people basically do the same thing each time if you don't intervene/disturb their path and its all very specifically synchronised so you can run from the various different starting locations and arrive at places at just the right time to pass guards or catch the target or whatever you need to do, similar to "one cycling" enemies in something like a sidescroller - until you have complete mastery of the level and start crafting theories of how you can cut down on time taken to go certain tasks, or figure out how to do them remotely instead and do something else at the same time.

I already feel like thats giving away too much tbh, just play and experiment, you DEFINTELY should do both tutorial levels and complete all the challenges in the "The Final Test" at least as they are a great way to learn how the game works (I know that seems obvious but in this case its quite a singular game so has its own mechanics that you might not think would work). If you enjoy the game you'll prob want to do them all anything, since its all about mastering the map and becoming the grim reaper of death scenarios.

Then when you do get into the first proper level (Paris) just fuck around and see how you can manipulate both Guard-type and Civilian NPCs by doing different things like leaving illegal items lying around or the like. When you do this you'll get to hear so much great/hilarious dialogue as well so its totally fun just learning the way the AI works.

I'd highly recommend playing on the middle difficulty (Or Easy if thats what you prefer) to start with even if you prefer Hard usually in games as it makes it less fun in a way because you won't have as many options as on "Medium". Its great once you master the level imo, but not so much before.

Also, go into the "Gameplay" options menu and put Challenges to "Minimal" or "Off", but I would leave most other things as they are. Otherwise you might find people are suspicious of you and you don't know why and it becomes a bit more trial and error.

Just PM me if you have any questions and I can give you direct instructions or even reply in a hinty that doesn't spoil anything. Also I can go through the gameplay options one by one if you want and tell you why I would leave them on. Its a very gamey game, I think its meant to be played with god-like knowledge of the map/npcs, as that fits the character.
 
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Depends on the game, I suppose. If it's a game where you're down spending most of your time amongst the unwashed NPC masses, then yea, it's kinda important from an immersion perspective.
 

Magog.

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I agree and that's why I have to applaud Watch Dogs Legion for the amazing world it has created. The NPC simulation is unreal. Thousands of NPCs that actually have their own back stories, rivalries, schedules, names, and unique perks and they are all playable. They are also nearly all quest givers since you need to help them before they will join your cause. In the Elder Scrolls and Fallout the guards are unnamed but even they are named and recruitable in Legion.

You can fire a recruit and then run into him as a guard in a different area. If you kill someone's uncle or doctor it will affect their opinion of you. It's the only game I've played where the random NPCs actually seem "alive" to me and I go out of my way not to kill them while driving through the city. You will notice they actually do things related to their occupation as you explore the city. Buskers play their instruments, hackers will be accessing computers in restricted areas, artists will be spray painting walls, anarchists will be protesting, etc. There is also random crime in the city with muggings and police brutality happening around corners and in alleys.

Add to that gameplay that is far more complex and innovative than GTA with the choice to play as a hacker, stealth, melee or full out combat and they are all fun and viable and can be mixed and matched to your heart's content. It's also really funny and has a great story that is very applicable to today's society.
 
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RoadHazard

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No game REALLY does this, there's just not enough CPU power to run all that AI and simulation in the entire open world all at once. The ones that seem to do it are faking it, like that Skyrim example. Still, that's better than nothing.
 
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Magog.

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No game REALLY does this, there's just not enough CPU power to run all that AI and stimulation in the entire open world all at once. The ones that seem to do it are faking it, like that Skyrim example. Still, that's better than nothing.

Untrue. See my above post. Legion does it and does it well.
 

RoadHazard

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Untrue. See my above post. Legion does it and does it well.

I guarantee it's faking it too. As in, those characters are not actually simulated doing their stuff in real time when they're on the other side of the city from you (which means they don't actually exist at all - they only exist when you're nearby). There's just no way.
 
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Yep. ROCKSTAR is still in the league of it's own trying to better themselves with each new sandbox game.
 

Magog.

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I guarantee it's faking it too. As in, those characters are not actually simulated doing their stuff in real time when they're on the other side of the city from you (which means they don't actually exist at all - they only exist when you're nearby). There's just no way.

Obviously it's not rendering them in real time everywhere in the city but if you're not there to see it then it doesn't really matter.
 

RoadHazard

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Obviously it's not rendering them in real time everywhere in the city but if you're not there to see it then it doesn't really matter.

Not just rendering, they're not gonna be simulated in real time either. Those things you talk about don't mean that the characters are simulated doing those things when you're not there. They just get a certain state when they're loaded in based on your previous interactions with them.
 

Magog.

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Yep. ROCKSTAR is still in the league of it's own trying to better themselves with each new sandbox game.
Huh? The NPCs in Rockstar games are just pretty scenery. Watch Dogs Legion literally simulates the lives of thousands of unique named NPCs with occupations, schedules, rivalries, relationships with each other and traits who are nearly all recruitable and playable.
Not just rendering, they're not gonna be simulated in real time either. Those things you talk about don't mean that the characters are simulated doing those things when you're not there. They just get a certain state when they're loaded in based on your previous interactions with them.

That's true but I would argue Legion still does it the best given the limitations of hardware.
 
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Danjin44

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Watch Dogs Legion literally simulates the lives of thousands of unique named NPCs with occupations, schedules, rivalries, relationships
Actually it doesn't do that....not entirely. NPCs only start having schedules and occupation after you add them as potential recruit.
 
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Jeeves

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No game REALLY does this, there's just not enough CPU power to run all that AI and simulation in the entire open world all at once. The ones that seem to do it are faking it, like that Skyrim example. Still, that's better than nothing.
I haven't played it yet, but I think X4 Foundations does it for real. The longer you keep your save file, the longer it takes to save/load the game (I've seen it take several minutes) because it has to keep track of all the stuff going on in the whole game world.
 

Magog.

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Actually it doesn't do that....not entirely. NPCs only start having schedules and occupation after you add them as potential recruit.

I've seen them going about their activities and tracked them so that seems inaccurate.
 

CormacMcNulty

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Watch Dogs Legion literally simulates the lives of thousands of unique named NPCs with occupations, schedules, rivalries, relationships with each other and traits who are nearly all recruitable and playable.
Legion basically takes an endgame character of a RPG and distribute the obtained skills and perks obtained over 100s of NPCs. I was severely disappointed with Legion when I figured out that most differences you get from playing with new recruits are very minor and inconsequential in both narrative and gameplay. The novelty wore of very fast and I played most of the game with a Hitman character. Also the script is utter horseshit and driving felt wonky.
 

Magog.

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Legion basically takes an endgame character of a RPG and distribute the obtained skills and perks obtained over 100s of NPCs. I was severely disappointed with Legion when I figured out that most differences you get from playing with new recruits are very minor and inconsequential in both narrative and gameplay. The novelty wore of very fast and I played most of the game with a Hitman character. Also the script is utter horseshit and driving felt wonky.

To each their own but the different personalities of the various characters and their plethora of accents and various skills were charming to me. Granted they could have taken it further with the abilities but compared to other GTA style vehicular open world games its light years ahead in world simulation and gameplay variety. Sure you can stick to a hitman and stealth your way through but you could also hack your way to victory or go full Rambo. The melee system gives the game added depth as well since it gives you a chance to defeat an enemy you failed to stealth without alerting all the other guards.

Writing was also good and quite funny to me and the driving was top notch if you feather the brakes and throttle in a good car.
 
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CormacMcNulty

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To each their own but the different personalities of the various characters and their plethora of accents and various skills were charming to me. Granted they could have taken it further with the abilities but compared to other GTA style vehicular open world games its light years ahead in world simulation and gameplay variety. Sure you can stick to a hitman and stealth your way through but you could also hack your way to victory or go full Rambo. The melee system gives the game added depth as well since it gives you a chance to defeat an enemy you failed to stealth without alerting all the other guards.
Nothing you're pointing out has anything do with world simulation. Those are just different gameplay styles. Watch Dogs 2 already lets you play pacifistically and hack your way to victory with some use of non lethal weapons although you have access to more gadgets and perks in Legion.
 

Magog.

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Nothing you're pointing out has anything do with world simulation. Those are just different gameplay styles. Watch Dogs 2 already lets you play pacifistically and hack your way to victory with some use of non lethal weapons although you have access to more gadgets and perks in Legion.

My post above was in reference to the world simulation

"The NPC simulation is unreal. Thousands of NPCs that actually have their own back stories, rivalries, schedules, names, and unique perks and they are all playable. They are also nearly all quest givers since you need to help them before they will join your cause. In the Elder Scrolls and Fallout the guards are unnamed but even they are named and recruitable in Legion.

You can fire a recruit and then run into him as a guard in a different area. If you kill someone's uncle or doctor it will affect their opinion of you. It's the only game I've played where the random NPCs actually seem "alive" to me and I go out of my way not to kill them while driving through the city. You will notice they actually do things related to their occupation as you explore the city. Buskers play their instruments, hackers will be accessing computers in restricted areas, artists will be spray painting walls, anarchists will be protesting, etc. There is also random crime in the city with muggings and police brutality happening around corners and in alleys."
 

IntentionalPun

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The open world itself is a part of the simulation, that you can leverage for different things.

Leveraging it for absolutely nothing? Sure.. but... most games leverage it for SOMETHING. At bare minimum having an open world really enables certain traversal methods to be more fun. You often get access to an array of vehicles in open world games that are enhanced by the fact you can drive / fly anywhere in the world.

That to me is enough right there. Borderlands doesn't need any fancy world simulation for it's open world to still add to the fun. Things are relatively close and fast travel is easy/accessible, vehicles are everywhere, they do fun stuff like jumps... the vehicle combat is kinda fun, and they reward you (lots of things you can 'grind' while driving.) For me, just the fact that the "level design" is connected adds to the atmosphere of a game. Borderlands is this over the top silly inter-connected series of areas and it's more fun because of it.

That to me is enough to justify it; there are no NPCs living their lives having semi-random events occur, or getting killed so a mission is altered, etc. But the open world really is what paves the way for the vehicle aspect which adds to the game.

Some games don't do enough, but most do SOMETHING... simulating NPCs is not the only "simulation" an open world enables.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

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I think most stuff needs to be scripted. Walking around is one thing, but beyond that it probably gets too dang complicated to develop something like that.

I was playing Marvel's Spider-Man, and there are several sections (namely during when Peter is at FEAST), that break the immersion, namely when there's a line of people, that never moved, and the receptionist is just sitting there looking like they're braindead. Then when you approach, the conversation starts, and it loops this weird animation of them pretending like they're looking at the computer, moving the mouse around, etc.

No doubt what you and I want, is autonomous NPC's... but that's not gonna happen.

It's why multiplayer will solve OPs issue. It's difficult as hell getting AI to make interesting choices that impact the player.

Remove the AI and insert humans that have incentive do do different things in the game world.
 

CormacMcNulty

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The NPC simulation is unreal. Thousands of NPCs that actually have their own back stories, rivalries, schedules, names, and unique perks and they are all playable. They are also nearly all quest givers since you need to help them before they will join your cause. In the Elder Scrolls and Fallout the guards are unnamed but even they are named and recruitable in Legion.
I've finished the game once and started playing again with different recruits only to find out the extreme similarity between potential recruits which damaged my reception of the game. Also having multiple recruits with similar accent was very immersion breaking for me, although that was my bad luck (read bad RNG).
You will notice they actually do things related to their occupation as you explore the city. Buskers play their instruments, hackers will be accessing computers in restricted areas, artists will be spray painting walls, anarchists will be protesting, etc. There is also random crime in the city with muggings and police brutality happening around corners and in alleys
True. The worldbuilding is actually underrated in Ubi's games.
 

Magog.

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It's why multiplayer will solve OPs issue. It's difficult as hell getting AI to make interesting choices that impact the player.

Remove the AI and insert humans that have incentive do do different things in the game world.

That's one solution but are you volunteering to be the guy standing at the counter checking in the hobos? Multiplayer will never be an immersive simulation because no one is willing to play those lesser roles. AI can simulate it just fine. Watch Dogs Legion does a great job of it and I'm sure more will invest into it as the better CPUs allow for more and more simulation.
 

DustQueen

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It's called systemic world.
And almost none of the open world games are systemic. But people do not give a shit... The do not actually need much, mostly u just make it look expensive and add couple of half baked gameplay systems and will eat that shit up. Look no further then RDR2 reception

But Nintendo is actually seriously pushing systemic open world with ZeldaBOTW 1&2.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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That's one solution but are you volunteering to be the guy standing at the counter checking in the hobos? Multiplayer will never be an immersive simulation because no one is willing to play those lesser roles. AI can simulate it just fine. Watch Dogs Legion does a great job of it and I'm sure more will invest into it as the better CPUs allow for more and more simulation.

You just need to incentivize the "lesser roles".

Asymmetrical multiplayer has slowly grown throughout the years. The trend in that direction is only going to continue.
 

Clear

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Its interesting to me how devalued traversal has become to most players.

The original notion was that rather than going from level A to B as an immediate consequence of beating the boss of A or getting to the finish flag or whatever, in an open world design the player would be free to pick a route between the two. Go direct, or take the scenic route in order to find extra secondary stuff, secrets, or just get a geographical sense of the world and the spatial relationships of the key areas within it.

That choice was supposed to be meaningful and immersive, yet it seems that nowadays its thought of as being an inconvenience or a distraction by a lot of gamers.

I can't help but see it as part of a sort of shift towards a rapid completionist kind of mindset. Where the primary goal is to "beat" the game as quickly as possible so they can move onto the next title. It definitely seems adjacent to the whole "respect my time" critique.

I think the reaction to Death Stranding was very illustrative as with that game Kojima tried to craft a thing where the traversal between these "stages" was the primary focus. A lot of people really seemed to dislike it on principle, and resented its deemphasis on set-piece encounters versus a more measured free-form type of experience.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Member
May 31, 2020
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Its interesting to me how devalued traversal has become to most players.

The original notion was that rather than going from level A to B as an immediate consequence of beating the boss of A or getting to the finish flag or whatever, in an open world design the player would be free to pick a route between the two. Go direct, or take the scenic route in order to find extra secondary stuff, secrets, or just get a geographical sense of the world and the spatial relationships of the key areas within it.

That choice was supposed to be meaningful and immersive, yet it seems that nowadays its thought of as being an inconvenience or a distraction by a lot of gamers.

I can't help but see it as part of a sort of shift towards a rapid completionist kind of mindset. Where the primary goal is to "beat" the game as quickly as possible so they can move onto the next title. It definitely seems adjacent to the whole "respect my time" critique.

I think the reaction to Death Stranding was very illustrative as with that game Kojima tried to craft a thing where the traversal between these "stages" was the primary focus. A lot of people really seemed to dislike it on principle, and resented its deemphasis on set-piece encounters versus a more measured free-form type of experience.

Great points here.

I'd argue Breath of the Wild, MGSV, Death Stranding, PUBG, and Fortnite all value traversal a ton.
 

Magog.

Banned
Dec 31, 2020
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I've finished the game once and started playing again with different recruits only to find out the extreme similarity between potential recruits which damaged my reception of the game. Also having multiple recruits with similar accent was very immersion breaking for me, although that was my bad luck (read bad RNG).

True. The worldbuilding is actually underrated in Ubi's games.

AC has nice background visuals of NPCs going about their daily lives but they are still just scenery. The fact that the guy I accidentally run over in the first 5 minutes playing Legion had friends and family, a name and a skill set and could have been my main character throughout the game if I had stopped and recruited him instead sets it way apart from other Ubi games and other games in general.
 

CormacMcNulty

Banned
Aug 3, 2020
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The fact that the guy I accidentally run over in the first 5 minutes playing Legion had friends and family, a name and a skill set and could have been my main character throughout the game if I had stopped and recruited him instead sets it way apart from other Ubi games and other games in general.
I mean both Watch Dogs and Watch Dogs 2 did the same thing with everyone having names and jobs and shit. The only difference is in Legion you can recruit them but even if you kill someone you're not losing out on anything because their skillet is not unique and generally they're very minor as I said before. And all this stuff makes the main story disjointed as a result, with all recruits feeling like shells of peole. This game felt like it was designed by an AI to me. But that's just me. I'm glad you enjoyed it though.
 

Alebrije

Member
Feb 25, 2010
10,117
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It seems NPC A.I. is the most difficult thing to program on any game and specially on Open World games.

Ray tracing and graphical jingles are here on next gen consoles but A.I. is the same sin PS one.

Think the next generatio step will be regarding this area plus physics and not about graphics improvements.
 

Krappadizzle

Member
Oct 4, 2011
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I'd rather devs put more time into a structured and solid storyline/game than a pointless and excessive open world. I love open world game, probably my favorite genre, but if you aren't going to commit all the way to making it what it should be, don't waste the resources.

A fine example would be Mafia 2. I loved the series, even loved Mafia 2, but when you get into the open world, there's no point to it, you can't really do anything and what you can do is repeated ad nauseum and even then, what you can do is boring as shit. It was pointless and would have been a better game had they just made it a structured linear game and added the shit they cut out instead of wasting so many resources on this huge, gorgeous open world which serves no point.
 

Griffon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
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Open world just means one big overworld map. Not much else really.

GTA has no sim whatsoever and manages fine.
 

kiphalfton

Member
Dec 27, 2018
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It's why multiplayer will solve OPs issue. It's difficult as hell getting AI to make interesting choices that impact the player.

Remove the AI and insert humans that have incentive do do different things in the game world.

Yeah I thought about that... but then how would you get people to play the shop keep or a character in a 3rd person shooter who can't use guns.

People don't act civilized in online games due to no policing, repercussions, etc.