Wildebeest
Member
It is a sign that folk are heavy twitter users and that is a real red flag y'all.
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A good summary of why we get so many headlines about "toxic work environment" in this industry:
- Thread starter Sentenza
- Start date
Killer8
Member
Why do you say 'rightly' bounced? A couple of people make some jokes between themselves, ergo they now deserve to lose their livelihood?
Absolutely deranged take.
March Climber
Member
Yes. If you are making clearly sexists jokes in front of a coworker, and the coworker then complains about your INAPPROPRIATE behavior to HR. . .you get bounced. Feel free to point out these Goldilocks Workplaces where the above behavior wouldn't get you fired.
That you are saying in front of another coworker. . .at work. . .a workplace that likely has policies in place that dictate what appropriate behavior is. Policies I guess that you feel don't really apply because "They be just jokes. . ."
Hilarious hypocrisy. This "Riot Woman" is in the wrong for trying to enforce their moral/ethical views on her coworkers, but the coworkers aren't for trying to force their ethical views on the woman (and yes, you thinking that it is okay to make jokes that run afoul of company policy is an ethical position).
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Sentenza
Member
GAF: Corporate environment is so dehumanizing.
Also GAF: "During work time you should never be anything else than a perfect corporate soldier and jokes are out of place".
What a tosser.
StueyDuck
Member
i mean if you think everything is just a "gotcha" then that explains a lot.
Your post isn't the 'gotcha' that you think it is man.
gaming_again
Member
I’ve had meetings with vendors etc. where they’ve bitched about wokeness then half an hour later I receive an email from them that has pronouns all over it. It’s signalling rather than sincerely held belief.
My estimation of said people does plummet. It shows they engage in groupthink/worry about status in the corporate world.
My estimation of said people does plummet. It shows they engage in groupthink/worry about status in the corporate world.
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Killer8
Member
You would likely get bounced at some workplaces, sure. But a description of what often happens is not what I was talking about - I was talking about your deranged judgement that that is the 'right' thing to do.
Because dismissal is not a reasonable response to employees sharing a lude joke. At most, a warning to leave that talk at home should suffice. Punishments should be fair - demanding a firing for a joke is like thinking jaywalking should deserve jail time.
I also assume you were perfectly fine, then, with the 'donglegate' fellas losing their ability to put food on the table because what they said was interpreted as sexist by someone eavesdropping on their conversation?
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gaming_again
Member
Sexism:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt
Also lol at sexist not being in invented commas.
This rot has been growing for a decade now
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt
Also lol at sexist not being in invented commas.
This rot has been growing for a decade now
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Fbh
Member
I don't really know what you mean.
The type of person referred to in the OP and in my post has existed since before social media or the current use of the word "woke": Easily offended, hyper progressive, prone to conflict with anyone who doesn't agree with them, obsessed with social issues, victim complex, prone to mental health issues, etc.
My comment about the woke craze is that things have just gotten worse now with how this sort of mentality has spread through social media, and how empowered these people feel through it.
The only upside is that they've become fairly easy to spot (like using They/them in your resume)
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TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
I only read the first four posts, but I love gold.
....
Was that too early? I got a vibe.
....
Was that too early? I got a vibe.
StereoVsn
Member
It's corporate reality. Any large Enterprise isn't going to let that shit fly because they don't want New York Times or WashPost or CNN to have articles on page 1 about this shit or social media attention. I have worked in multiple large corpos (still do), and dealt (and still deal) with even more on daily basis.
Nobody wants drama at work. Which is also why sometimes resumes with pronouns get tossed or folks with those sorts of dramatic personalities don't get passed interviews.
Basically projects need to get done, nobody wants to have drama distracting things. And yes, that includes making inappropriate jokes in the office. Go out to lunch or happy hour for that stuff.
GameDev or Hollywood, and more Creative industries naturally attract more neurotic folks so that situation is a bit different. Creatives can't be managed quite the same as your regular engineers.
kiphalfton
Member
How does this shit have anything to do with Gaming Discussion...
Fuz
Banned
Have you seen the state of the industry?
Crayon
Member
Re: 'jokes'
Someone here hired a real piece of work. Within 2 days I went into the director's office and warned that this person had some awful judgment and any day now something is going to come out of their mouth that is going to get us in trouble and god forbid it's with a client instead of internal.
This is because in the first two days they told me several 'jokes' that were clearly meant to be bonding with me. I told them once gently that I have some advice about this type of environment and that they should be watching what they say. But they did not take the advice. So I told them one more time in hopefully language they would understand "this is not a construction site, (firm choice of words follow)."
So then, yeah I warned the director, my warning was ignored, and 3 weeks later there was a humiliating incident, luckily with a vendor of ours instead of a client.
A lot of what you might consider workplace over-sensitivity, is really just people trying to nip the shit in the bud. There is a line somewhere and people do get approached and put down (and naturally take it personally) before they get there, because why wait to find the line when professionalism should be the policy in the first place.
Not to say there's any shortage of specious calls to HR these days, but what I'm talking about here has been the status quo for all of my working life and it makes perfect sense to me. You don't want to let in-groups and out-groups form and people acting differently when it's "just the boys" or whatever is one way that can happen.
Someone here hired a real piece of work. Within 2 days I went into the director's office and warned that this person had some awful judgment and any day now something is going to come out of their mouth that is going to get us in trouble and god forbid it's with a client instead of internal.
This is because in the first two days they told me several 'jokes' that were clearly meant to be bonding with me. I told them once gently that I have some advice about this type of environment and that they should be watching what they say. But they did not take the advice. So I told them one more time in hopefully language they would understand "this is not a construction site, (firm choice of words follow)."
So then, yeah I warned the director, my warning was ignored, and 3 weeks later there was a humiliating incident, luckily with a vendor of ours instead of a client.
A lot of what you might consider workplace over-sensitivity, is really just people trying to nip the shit in the bud. There is a line somewhere and people do get approached and put down (and naturally take it personally) before they get there, because why wait to find the line when professionalism should be the policy in the first place.
Not to say there's any shortage of specious calls to HR these days, but what I'm talking about here has been the status quo for all of my working life and it makes perfect sense to me. You don't want to let in-groups and out-groups form and people acting differently when it's "just the boys" or whatever is one way that can happen.
kiphalfton
Member
Sentenza
Member
I already explained it more than once.
Like it or not, bitching over it multiple times is not going to change a fuck, so give me a fucking break.
Ask a moderator to move the thread for all I care, but I didn't choose to post it here randomly because I was making a specific point about past episodes being reported in this very same subforum and where they often come from.
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MiguelItUp
Member
1000%
As someone that was involved in the hiring process at a previous studio, this is all incredibly true and on the nose. This was also years ago, so I can only imagine it being even more strict now.
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Sentenza
Member
That's incidentally the entire point of the thread.
"Drama at work" usually comes from a very specific direction. For example: narcissistic people actively looking for some.
Arguably, one of the problems in the videogame industry currently is that this "anti-drama" filter is not being applied. Quite the contrary, there's an ostentatious effort to be "as inclusive as possible", competence be damned.
Which is precisely why at this point it's usually just a matter of time before any single company or studio gets publicly blamed of "extreme toxicity", for what once would be just dismissed as "people not being robots".
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Grizzled Ghost
Member
Implying that someone overhearing a joke between friends is somehow having a radical ethical viewpoint forced on them, and they now have a moral obligation to get those people fired, is absolutely delusional.
Catphish
Member
Yes. It is "deranged" to fire someone for flouting (what is almost surely) company workplace harassment policy. It isn't the jokers making the coworker uncomfortable that are the problem. Oh no, it's the offended who just needs to "lighten up" and stop making everyone else walk on egg-shells that is the issue. Gosh.
Yeah that's an incredibly dishonest read of what I wrote. To reiterate, in this scenario:
Implying that the individual who overhears this - in a WORK ENVIRONMENT - should "lighten up" is absolutely attempting to force an ethical position on the offended (that position being "You should be okay with these kinds of inappropriate work comments." All the other stuff you are attempting to ascribe to me is whatever and not worth responding to (maybe if you actually read what I've said in this not at all long thread and then responded).
It doesn't. It is literally a political thread about two talking heads being okay with passing on job applicants because of assumed political ideology and then a hacky justification of "well people interview for jobs in gaming" getting tossed on the end.
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
Jesus Christ, OP. Just because there are a bunch of entitled, pronouny twats out there, it doesn’t mean you can dismiss reports of toxic working conditions in the games industry. The two things can and do exist. Shitty fucking people everywhere… including the cunts at video games developers like Ubisoft and Blizzard.
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Grizzled Ghost
Member
She should lighten up. I once worked with a new hire who doing verbatim Andrew Dice Clay bits and passing them off as her own. I found this to be in very bad taste.
Should I have reported her to HR for being unwillingly made party to her immoral acts of blatant plagiarism and stolen comic valor? That seems like an overreaction. Every perceived slight should not be weaponized to further a personal crusade.
Honestly, I would've preferred to not work with her anymore, but... she needed the money.
JC 1080P CRT
Member
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Eotheod
Member
Ah yes, the games industry that is known for crunching the shit out of their employees and forcing many larger developers to sacrifice life for shipping a game. The same industry that has been plagued for decades by sexism, elitism, corporate mind fuckery and honestly the most fucked up work ethics outside of slave labour because "you love this industry right so slave!"
Yep, it's the woke people alright. Bloody people putting genders and shit on their applications are 100% the reason for shit workplaces. Totally not the industry environment and expectation but also the community responses that drive terrible workplace ethics. Nope, not at all.
Yep, it's the woke people alright. Bloody people putting genders and shit on their applications are 100% the reason for shit workplaces. Totally not the industry environment and expectation but also the community responses that drive terrible workplace ethics. Nope, not at all.
Exactly. YOU are assessing the situation based on YOUR value system, determining - based on some moral system YOU subscribe to - that no "social contract" governing proper behavior has been broken between the two parties and now suggesting the offended adhere to this as well, i.e. attempting to force your ethics on someone else.
If the comments she were making ran contrary to company policy that both you and the new hire agreed to (by taking the job) then sure, if it offended you.
Literally NO ONE is saying it should, certainly not me. What I did say was that someone who is blithely making sexist remarks in front of coworkers should probably be removed because THAT person is going to cost the company money in the long term when someone who refuses to "lighten up" decides to make a complaint and one of the issues is going to be "is there a pattern of this behavior that went ignored."
Killer8
Member
You seem to be being wilfully obtuse about what it is i'm actually talking about. Maybe that's why all you can resort to is snark. Nowhere did I say that the offended person should just grit their teeth and deal with it (but I'll get to that point later).
If you need it spelled out more thoroughly - I have objections to, as a matter of company policy, outright firing people over jokes, because I think it's a completely disproportionate first line response. You are acting as if a joke between friends overhead by someone else (ie. not even targeted) is akin to something more serious like physical molestation, and deserves no second chances. That is deranged to me, not even just in regards to this topic but as a general worldview. "He said something shitty one time so he should no longer be able to feed his family"... OK then.
I already pointed out that some warning should perhaps be given to leave those jokes at home - which is also as much to protect the person making the jokes from being dismissed as it is the person complaining. There was an example pointed out in the thread of ample warning being given to an employee making jokes which wasn't heeded, and the person ended up fired after making a fool of themselves. In terms of fairness, that is a much more desirable scenario than just demanding their immediate termination "because muh policy" like you seem to be doing.
As a side note, it's entertaining to see you fellate the corporate cock as much as you do, given that you post like a Resetera refugee. I thought you guys thought we should challenge all laws, rules and policies we thought were unjust - like i'm doing? Or is that only the ones you personally don't agree with? I take it you'd also object to someone flouting policies designed to reduce union activity too?
You also didn't address the donglegate example brought up. And at this point I'll bite on the "you just think they're snowflakes who need to toughen up reee" bait. Because the reasonableness of the person taking offence is absolutely a factor. Donglegate (and also Shirtgate posted earlier) were two of the most innocuous 'sexist' moments probably of all time. The former resulted in two men being immediately fired; the latter a humiliating Maoist public apology. There was a massive public divide over whether or not what they did was even 'sexist'.
You're blabbering a lot about value systems when it's clear that certain things which are offensive to some are completely mundane to others. Corporate de facto endorsing one of these value systems and just siding with the offended - even if it's not a legitimate grievance (there, I said it) - is extremely murky territory. Doubly so when someone's livelihood is at risk.
The post of mine you responded to was in response to EXACTLY THAT situation. Again, this thread is only two pages - can't believe folks are already losing themselves.
Cool. Take your value judgement (which I guess supersedes everyone elses) up with HR then. Still wouldn't be inappropriate for someone to be disciplined - including dismissal - if such comments ran contrary to company policy. Again, totally deranged behavior.
Who is the "you guys. . ." in that statement? There's no teams here and all this incredibly cringey paragraph does is out what this is REALLY about for you. As I'm (overly) fond of saying: "Always a battlefield for a (culture) warrior. . ." Or something along those lines.
You mean the example where the fella fired agreed with the young lady reporting him for his comment even if he didn't agree with the way she went about doing it? Yup. Read it. Not really moved one way or another by either party.
. . .still doesn't change anything I've said.
JC 1080P CRT
Member
Here's a synopsis of Donglegate, for people who haven't heard of it (or searched for it) yet:
en.wikipedia.org
Here are a few differences between this incident and the hypothetical workplace example being discussed in other posts:
* The incident took place at a conference, not at a workplace
* The two men and the woman were not coworkers, nor were they working at the same place
The termination of the man's employment had nothing to do with the workplace, either as an isolated incident or ongoing harassment.
You're correct that one of the men did apologize:
Even though he says he agrees with her reporting his speech to staff, I doubt that he agrees with a photo of him being posted online like she did, and the subsequent termination of his employment (several people in that thread and across the internet would disagree regarding all points).
I concur with
Killer8
when he says that it's a "completely disproportionate first response," especially in consideration to what was actually said, whom it was about, and who was the intended audience.
For the record, as far as my perspective, I don't agree with the "suck it up" perspective of some posters in the thread, but I don't agree with the defending of employment termination upon a first offense of this nature.
Overall, I did want to make sure the facts of Donglegate were clear and not misinterpreted.
Donglegate - Wikipedia
Here are a few differences between this incident and the hypothetical workplace example being discussed in other posts:
* The incident took place at a conference, not at a workplace
* The two men and the woman were not coworkers, nor were they working at the same place
The termination of the man's employment had nothing to do with the workplace, either as an isolated incident or ongoing harassment.
You're correct that one of the men did apologize:
Even though he says he agrees with her reporting his speech to staff, I doubt that he agrees with a photo of him being posted online like she did, and the subsequent termination of his employment (several people in that thread and across the internet would disagree regarding all points).
I concur with
Killer8
when he says that it's a "completely disproportionate first response," especially in consideration to what was actually said, whom it was about, and who was the intended audience.For the record, as far as my perspective, I don't agree with the "suck it up" perspective of some posters in the thread, but I don't agree with the defending of employment termination upon a first offense of this nature.
Overall, I did want to make sure the facts of Donglegate were clear and not misinterpreted.
Sentenza
Member
Yeah, clearly when you have people with blue hair that run crying on twitter “In my entire four months working at the studio I’ve been misgendered, mansplained, deadnamed and they attempted to put bigger boobs on muh favorite anthropomorphic squirrel” the issue being highlighted is actually excessive crunch.
Gamerfan81
Member
I agree that in a workplace it should be professional, that's how it has always been within the corporate world, hell I don't even have water cooler talks about stuff anymore. I wanted to talk about the World Baseball Classic final the other day but had to wait until lunch break offsite to have that talk with a fellow coworker that's also a huge baseball fan. It's better to just get stuff done and then bounce. Too many eyes and ears that can report you for any infraction to HR.
I also understand OP's concern about those loonies in the workplace. What I do is just keep it professional, not even small talk with them. Just a nod, and hello and just keep trucking.
I also understand OP's concern about those loonies in the workplace. What I do is just keep it professional, not even small talk with them. Just a nod, and hello and just keep trucking.
calistan
Member
This is a technology-related field. A typical email signature for a 40-something married dude could be something like:
Phil Spencer (he/him)
Head of Acquisitions
No blue hair, no cross-dressing, just an ordinary person who has worked there for years without feeling the need to let people know it’s okay to call him a man.
Gamerfan81
Member
The game industry has its problems, but you don't make it better by demanding the company cater to your ideology and whims.
Let me guess, you thought this shit was okay and demanded the company bow down and inject a particular kind of politics within their games and corporate culture?
Killer8
Member
Well if it's the walking on eggshells part you are focusing on, the definition of it fits: "be very careful not to upset someone". Perhaps those employees would indeed be walking on eggshells, but that wouldn't strictly speaking be because they're thinking "fuckin' woke blue hairs won't let me have any fun" - it's part of it, sure, i'll concede that. But the main reason is because they don't want to be fucking fired. And I wonder why that is? Hmm? Do I hear the Jeopardy music playing? Is it possibly because... people like yourself think they should immediately be fired if they say the wrong thing out of line (even if they think they are just making a joke)? I mean if a person is saying they're walking on eggshells, it sort of implies that they are going out of their way to avoid that happening.
It's not just a value judgement of HR, it's a value judgement of your dogshit worldview that endorses those policies. I'm not sure if you know how a forum works - generally people give their opinions about things without needing to qualify that not everyone shares the same values (which I explicitly talked about at the end of my post).
I mean based on your posting history, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
... it is 2023 though, so i'll need to be careful finishing that thought in case it identifies as a goose (whoops, would that shitty joke be worth getting me fired?).
There's also an incredible, fart huffing irony about calling someone's post cringe and then turning round and quoting themselves.
When you are ritualistically shamed online in the way he was and then are terminated by your workplace in an attempt by the company to save face, i'd be pouring my heart out online too to get my job back. Again, wonder why that is? Is it possibly because he now can't put food on the table and might be ostracized by an entire industry he's trained his life for - all for making a stupid dongle joke?
If you aren't influenced at all by how staggeringly unjust all of that is, I don't know what else I can really say. She (Adria) also implied in interviews years later that it was the guy who instigated her harassment campaign just by announcing his firing online:
So it sounds like she also believes, in her own words, that it's right to take food off someone's table over a stupid joke. Maybe you two are meant for each other.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
You need to wait until somebody gets banned to plead for the gold.
That's just...arbitrary!
Sentenza
Member
So, a raving narcissist lunatic incapable of a fraction of the empathy these people keep invoking from others.
Not surprising. And in this case we know for a fact that the "offensive joke" overheard was fucking nothing, there's not even need to guess.
I concur with
I never went into the specific. They did. The "shocking" comment that set these anti-Woke warriors all atwitter was that if you make inappropriate jokes at work, be prepared to face the consequence, up to and including being terminated. And because some folks aren't big fans of nuance and love them some absolutes, wow we are in some dumbass argument about "proportionate responses to dick jokes" completely jumping past: "Hey, how about you just come to work and do your fucking job."
I legit don't give a shit about this "Donglegate" situation; they all sound immature as hell (which is a theme here) and one hopes all of this was a learning lesson for them. But mostly I don't care because it is an insane ridiculous thread derailment to an already ridiculous scenario: the patently obvious political screed against "blue hairs" and the "justified" targeting of folks for employment delisting based on perceived political views.
. . .and then they want to talk all this game about people being able to put food on their table. Feh.
KXVXII9X
Member
This post just isn't it...
I see a lot of politically slanted posts making a lot of sweeping generalizations about certain groups of people.
I mostly get along with everyone here. I find it ironic when I hear "I haven't met a "good" person from the alphabet community.
Seriously? I try to be respectful to everyone in here. I have to bite my tongue a lot lately.
I see a lot of politically slanted posts making a lot of sweeping generalizations about certain groups of people.
I mostly get along with everyone here. I find it ironic when I hear "I haven't met a "good" person from the alphabet community.
Seriously? I try to be respectful to everyone in here. I have to bite my tongue a lot lately.
vodka-bull
Member
The arrogance to assume everyone but myself is garbage is fascibating.
