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80% in America believe in God

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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Nice attempt to twist my words. I’m intolerant of beliefs that promote intolerance and division - of which there are many in Christianity.

No atheist would care about what religious people believe or do, if those religious people stopped interfering in other people’s lives.

You don’t want atheists to sound elitist, intolerant or dismissive?

Stop fucking telling the rest of us how to live.
100% true.

I dont believe in religion and think it's stupid as hell and a waste of time. The worst is when you got religious nutcase A butting heads with religious nutcase B over which imaginary god is better.

That's like two people attacking each other over who is better: Heathcliff or Garfield.

But hey, if someone wants to be religious go ahead, but do that shit in your house. Dont spread your scripture to the rest of society hoping to enlist more make believers to make yourselves feel better.
 

Chaplain

Member
Religion, at its very core, is to support imaginary - rather than realistic - beliefs.

The same could be said for secular beliefs:

"Secularity is a new set of beliefs about reality, rationality, human nature—that can’t be proven, are not self-evident, and have as many contradictions as any set of religious beliefs. It is a faith-based worldview that will not admit what it is." (Theologian Tim Keller)

This means a person's worldview must correspond with ultimate reality: i.e., what does the evidence show, and does that evidence correspond with our experiential knowledge.
 

I_D

Member
well, nobody will ever be able to agree on anything...philosophy, politics, the internet..plenty of proof of that.
to me it seems that humans are able to do plenty god and plenty bad with or without religion

Agreed.

The same could be said for secular beliefs:

"Secularity is a new set of beliefs about reality, rationality, human nature—that can’t be proven, are not self-evident, and have as many contradictions as any set of religious beliefs. It is a faith-based worldview that will not admit what it is." (Theologian Tim Keller)

This means a person's worldview must correspond with ultimate reality: i.e., what does the evidence show, and does that evidence correspond with our experiential knowledge.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

If some thing can't be proven, isn't self-evident, and is full of contradictions, then it is not based in reality; and therefore doesn't relate to what I said.
If you're instead trying to say that a person's worldview should correspond with reality, then I agree with you. Religion doesn't correspond with reality, and so it isn't a good way to bring people together.
 

kurisu_1974

is on perm warning for being a low level troll
Oh yeah, back to the sick children.

God - if he existed - told us to fuck off after we decided to eat the Forbidden Fruit.

We had to work our ass off, we felt pain, shame and got sick. There is a path for salvation, but we bear the mark of the Original Sin.

There, an answer to something you could have easily google.

Luckily we have doctors and researchers on this rock that make our life easier and find cures.

and don't even try the good old GoD dOeSnT hElP, iTs AlL tHaNkS tO tHe DoCtoRs

Nobody (bar the fanatical dumbwits) says otherwise.


Regarding the "psychopathic deity" part - who is to say God has to be perfectly nice by human standards? Going by how we "take care" of our planet and animals (specifically lifestock) AND God created us in his image... God might be the biggest asshole of us all. And i say thst as a believer.

So why worship even if you believe?

Also a pretty weird way to "fuck off" if you see the death toll he caused in the Bible. Revenge is a petty thing except when you are a god. And revenge for what? For wanting knowledge! Something Christians still fear.

Who's to say salvation isn't also a scam or lie just like most of the rest?
 
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Chaplain

Member
what are some examples of secular beliefs?

Good question. I will let one of the leading atheist thinkers in the world explain secularism's ideas/beliefs and their origins:

"Liberal humanism is a secular rendition of a Christian myth, but the truth in the myth has been lost on the way. The biblical story of the Fall teaches that evil cannot be rooted out from human life. Humans are radically flawed — a perception expressed in the doctrine of Original Sin. It is not error or ignorance that stands in the way of a better world. The human-animal may yearn for peace and freedom, but it is no less fond of war and tyranny. No scientific advance can alter the contradictions of human needs. On the contrary, they can only be intensified as science increases human power." (Atheist Professor John Gray, former professor of European Thought at the London School for Economics)

"The belief that liberal values are on “the right side of history” is a confession of faith, asserted against an accumulating body of evidence. Liberal societies are by-products of western monotheism, which underpinned the practice of toleration with the belief that it was mandated by God. Generations of secular thinkers have attempted to detach liberalism from its theistic base. But decoupling the universal claims of liberalism from monotheism is easier said than done. Secular liberals believe history is moving in the direction of their values. Yet without a guiding providence of the sort imagined by monotheists, history has no direction." (Atheist John Gray, former professor of European thought at the London School for Economics, 9/4/18)

"...despite a majority no longer self-identifying as Christians, the way of thinking and the world view of the vast majority of post-Christians – whether they are out-and-out atheists or people who would describe themselves as agnostics – is still shaped by Christianity, or more generally by Western monotheism, than by anything else...Most of the central traditions of atheism have been a continuation of monotheism by other means. Certain beliefs are rejected but the way of thinking that monotheism embodies can still go on in other ways. For example, pretty well all contemporary atheists subscribe to a view of the world in which humankind has some of the functions of the deity that they’ve got rid of, because they imagine that there’s something you could call humanity or humankind that acts as a sort of collective moral agent." (Atheist Professor John Gray, former professor of European thought at the London School for Economics, 11/28/18)

“Humanism is not science, but religion - the post-Christian faith that humans can make a world better than any in which they have so far lived. In pre-Christian Europe is was taken for granted that the future would be like the past. Knowledge and invention might advance, but ethics would remain much the same. History was a series of cycles, with no overall meaning. Against this pagan view, Christians understood history as a story of sin and redemption. Humanism is the transformation of this Christian doctrine of salvation into a project of universal human emancipation. The idea of progress is a secular version of the Christian belief in providence. That is why among the ancient pagans it was unknown.” (Atheist Professor John Gray, former professor of European Thought at the London School for Economics)

"The totalitarian regimes of the last century embodied some of the Enlightenment's boldest dreams. Some of their worst crimes were done in the service of progressive ideals, while even regimes that viewed themselves as enemies of Enlightenment values attempted a project of transforming humanity by using the power of science, whose origins are in Enlightenment thinking. The role of the Enlightenment in the twentieth-century terror remains a blind spot in western perception." (Atheist Professor John Gray, former professor of European Thought at the London School for Economics)

"The social justice warriors who denounce Western civilisation and demand that its sins be confessed and repented would not exist without the moral inheritance of Christianity...Bien-pensant atheists who bang on about how much more civilised we would be if only Christianity had not existed have not asked where their conception of civilisation came from. Nietzsche was closer to the truth. If you regret the rise of Christianity, you must regret the rise of liberalism, human rights and belief in progress as well." (Atheist John Gray, former professor of European thought at the London School for Economics, 9/18/19)
 
Good question. I will let one of the leading atheist thinkers in the world explain secularism's ideas/beliefs and their origins:

OK there's a lot of ideas here, none of which answer my question but it's an interesting topic so I'll answer anyway. Firstly there are a few things that I'm going to dismiss outright because I think they're irrelevant and I'll explain why.

The focus is on liberalism to which "totalitarian regimes" are antithetical to and have no place in the discussion. The only point of interest would be where and which ones were "in the service of progressive ideals". I can guess which he means, there are of course classic examples people trot out but without any specifics this is just a strawman. Similarly, "social justice warriors", a pejorative that can mean anything the author wants to mean as a means to attack a thought. In this case the denouncement of Western civilisation.

Liberlism in the context of post-Christian societies have absolutely inherited certain moral values from the civilisations that have gone before them, this happens to every society in some way or another. Even colonial ones that seek to wipe out the previous ways of life. What liberal societies prioritise when deciding what to inherit or what not inherit are based on multiple things, but generally the notion of personal liberty and certain unwavering freedoms such as freedom of speech, freedom of capitalist markets etc while balancing those against, including but not limited to, inherited moral values from Christianity, for example, arguably, criminalising murder. The cherry picking that happens, which Gray does not mention when discussing his liberalism here is enabled by its bedfellow in these post-Christian societies - democracy, a person's freedom to choose how their society is governed. In contrast, a theocracy based purely on Christian moral values would be much closer to a totalitarian regime where dogma dictates society.

The moral values that liberalism has inherited are not "secular beliefs" by virtue of them existing in both Christian and post-Christian societies., which brings me to my initial question. And unfortunately, while I like this topic a lot I am not here to discuss this with an author of quotes but with you, and would therefore much appreciate your own thoughts and responses on these subjects.
 

Blade2.0

Member
Good question. I will let one of the leading atheist thinkers in the world explain secularism's ideas/beliefs and their origins:
You do know there isn't an atheist ideology, right? It isn't the same as Christianity that has bylaws and rules to adhere to. What one "leading atheist" says isn't what all atheists agree with. The only defining aspect of an atheist is that they don't believe a god exists. Which means two different atheists could vary wildly on their opinions they live their lives by.
 
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93xfan

Banned
100% true.

I dont believe in religion and think it's stupid as hell and a waste of time. The worst is when you got religious nutcase A butting heads with religious nutcase B over which imaginary god is better.

That's like two people attacking each other over who is better: Heathcliff or Garfield.

But hey, if someone wants to be religious go ahead, but do that shit in your house. Dont spread your scripture to the rest of society hoping to enlist more make believers to make yourselves feel better.
It’s hoping to save people, getting them right with God so they can receive God’s mercy and grace.

You came here. No one forced you to.

And I've yet to hear anyone complain about the toxicity of the left's religion. Dare to blaspheme or even question their gender ideology for example and be ready to have a mob wanting your life ruined.
 
And I've yet to hear anyone complain about the toxicity of the left's religion. Dare to blaspheme or even question their gender ideology for example and be ready to have a mob wanting your life ruined.

what does “the left” have to do with your religion? and what does this have to do with the topic at all? you must realise that even comparing this culture war nonsense to your faith does your faith no favours

also people not complaining about gender ideology, you must be new here
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
It’s hoping to save people, getting them right with God so they can receive God’s mercy and grace.

You came here. No one forced you to.

And I've yet to hear anyone complain about the toxicity of the left's religion. Dare to blaspheme or even question their gender ideology for example and be ready to have a mob wanting your life ruined.

Gender Ideology is *not* the “Left’s Religion”. Not anymore than “Christianity” is the “Right’s Religion”. Trying to boil this down to political sides is fucking retarded.
 

Blade2.0

Member
It’s hoping to save people, getting them right with God so they can receive God’s mercy and grace.

You came here. No one forced you to.

And I've yet to hear anyone complain about the toxicity of the left's religion. Dare to blaspheme or even question their gender ideology for example and be ready to have a mob wanting your life ruined.
"Why must you be so intolerant of my intolerance?" Says the man that can't see the irony in his statement.
 

93xfan

Banned
"Why must you be so intolerant of my intolerance?" Says the man that can't see the irony in his statement.
Based on the intolerance of Christianity in here, does this work for both sides? And is it intolerant to point out how others want to ruin the lives of anyone who questions them?
 
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93xfan

Banned
Gender Ideology is *not* the “Left’s Religion”. Not anymore than “Christianity” is the “Right’s Religion”. Trying to boil this down to political sides is fucking retarded.
The far left that does adhere to it seem very religious to me. I know it's not all the left, so I'm sorry if I made it sound like I oppose one side of the political spectrum/
 

Blade2.0

Member
Based on the intolerance of Christianity in here, does this work for both sides? And is it intolerant to point out how others want to ruin the lives of anyone who questions them?
The intolerance starts with Christianity. That's what you fail to grasp.
 

Chronicle

Member
Agreed.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

If some thing can't be proven, isn't self-evident, and is full of contradictions, then it is not based in reality; and therefore doesn't relate to what I said.
If you're instead trying to say that a person's worldview should correspond with reality, then I agree with you. Religion doesn't correspond with reality, and so it isn't a good way to bring people together.
Religion not a good way to bring people together? That's a very odd statement. I mean let's be honest if anything brings people together it is exactly religion that does it. Church on Sunday? Mosques? Synagogues? Shall I put up pictures of the pilgrimage to mecca? Not only that but buildings of faith are often community centers for things like girl guides and scouts, AA meetings, marriages and funerals, plus a whole slew of other groups.

What you just said makes no sense at all.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
I disagree. We didn't build this interlinked society by fostering intolerance.

You can disagree all you want, but you would be objectively wrong. Religion is just a tool, one that can be used for great good or great evil. At the core of any hatred, at any intolerance is one common factor: Humanity. Religion doesn’t make you intolerant. Just as Atheism doesn’t. Just as being a Bear’s fan doesn’t.

Trying to claim otherwise shows that you have zero merit in any discussion and are intolerant yourself.
 

93xfan

Banned
The intolerance starts with Christianity. That's what you fail to grasp.
in your mind, what makes us intolerant? And do you find us more intolerant than those calling a Supreme Court Justice the N word and calling for assassinating them.

Genuinely curious if you think Christians are the source of intolerance. Especially when another religion commonly inspires throwing people off rooftops for being gay and killing those who insult their prophet.
 
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Blade2.0

Member
You can disagree all you want, but you would be objectively wrong. Religion is just a tool, one that can be used for great good or great evil. At the core of any hatred, at any intolerance is one common factor: Humanity. Religion doesn’t make you intolerant. Just as Atheism doesn’t. Just as being a Bear’s fan doesn’t.

Trying to claim otherwise shows that you have zero merit in any discussion and are intolerant yourself.
A religion that claims you to be morally superior to all others is the epitome of intolerance.
 

93xfan

Banned
A religion that claims you to be morally superior to all others is the epitome of intolerance.
Furthermore, where does it state I’m morally superior to others?

Im told I’m a sinner and cannot boast about my salvation as it is a gift of grace. Im told to love my enemies, rather than hate them.

Christianity shows me the depths of my sin, which shows me I have no reason to be prideful about my behavior or life.

But it also shows how amazing God’s grace is.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
You can disagree all you want, but you would be objectively wrong. Religion is just a tool, one that can be used for great good or great evil. At the core of any hatred, at any intolerance is one common factor: Humanity. Religion doesn’t make you intolerant. Just as Atheism doesn’t. Just as being a Bear’s fan doesn’t.

Trying to claim otherwise shows that you have zero merit in any discussion and are intolerant yourself.
Pretty sure Atheists dont cause trouble like hardcore religious people do. That's how many wars over history were based on.

Religion (all the 100s of variations of them) are imaginary stories which can fuel hatred and stupidity. I find it hard to believe grown adults can be brainwashed into it. I can understand some peaceful Sunday church goers going to church for sake of something to do that morning (get some fresh air and some brunch afterwards), but you'd think in modern day people wouldnt be word for word believers in something that can lead to disgusting behaviour (a lot of that Islam stuff you read about where someone gets pissed and the next thing you know a guy got his head chopped off).

The vast majority of Atheists just sit back and watch religious idiocy at work. I'm not religious, but I will admit I do enjoy watching and reading dumb things fueled by religion.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
A religion that claims you to be morally superior to all others is the epitome of intolerance.
Pretty sure Atheists dont cause trouble like hardcore religious people do. That's how many wars over history were based on.

Religion (all the 100s of variations of them) are imaginary stories which can fuel hatred and stupidity. I find it hard to believe grown adults can be brainwashed into it. I can understand some peaceful Sunday church goers going to church for sake of something to do that morning (get some fresh air and some brunch afterwards), but you'd think in modern day people wouldnt be word for word believers in something that can lead to disgusting behaviour (a lot of that Islam stuff you read about where someone gets pissed and the next thing you know a guy got his head chopped off).

The vast majority of Atheists just sit back and watch religious idiocy at work. I'm not religious, but I will admit I do enjoy watching and reading dumb things fueled by religion.

You both just proved my point. Thanks.

EDIT: Apparently most of what I wrong disappeared, so rewriting it now after the fact.

I am not religious at all. I believe in science. Collecting of data, analyzing it, crafting theories, laws. Working on developing hypothesis. Yet, I always ensure that I see the bigger picture before I make claims. Something I think both of you would benefit in doing.

You are correct that “atheists” don’t cause trouble as “hardcore religious people”. Yet, we still see violence, hatred, and outright murder by “atheists”. Intolerance, anger, hate - it has nothing to do with religion. It is a *HUMAN* issue. Individuals will use whatever tool they can to push their hate and anger onto others. Yes, wars were started utilizing religion - but have you *actually* looked into those wars? The crusades? The Maccabean Revolt? The Ethiopian-Adal war? They weren’t simply wars begun because of religious differences. They were done because of power hungry individuals or groups wanted to either gain or remain in power. Religion was just the tool used to push those tools. Just as we currently have a “culture war” ongoing with Gender Ideology within the west. Certain groups want power and will utilize whatever tools they have on hand to gain and maintain said power.

Religion has killed millions, if not billions over our species lifetime. But it has also saved just as many. There are billions of christians, Muslims, and others who use the words of their gods to promote good In their communities and to each other while selectively ignoring the passages/views that promote hate, violence, or intolerance. It is a *tool*. Same can be said for Science. Technology. Any tool has its uses for good and for bad. I can’t believe I have to reiterate it this much, but I fear it will go over your heads at this rate.

As I stated days ago, there are two groups. Religious zealots are but one of them in this thread that are showing their ass. You? You are the other ones. Your ignorance on display is baffling.
 
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IFireflyl

Gold Member
I agree with Dr. Claus Dr. Claus . In the world we live in there are people of every demographic who are intolerant. Religious people can be intolerant. Non-religious people can be intolerant. According to Christianity this is due to our sin nature, but even as an atheist you can't deny that some people just suck. I support standing against intolerance. Every Christian I know is against the Russian/Ukraine war. This war wasn't brought about by religion. "Some people just suck."
 
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