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[Fake]

Disney is also said/rumoured to be pivoting after Marvels.

Sony Scraps Future "Madame Web" Plans? - Dark Horizons

So just what is the future of Sony’s Spider-Man Universe (SSMU), also known as the Sony Pictures Universe of Marvel Characters (SPUMC), in the wake of the opening of “Madame Web”? Several outlets have been doing post-release analysis of the film’s failure to launch this weekend – taking just...

www.darkhorizons.com

They’re clearly not understanding what is wrong if that is their takeaway but ah well, whatever leads to better content.

'Make a good movie'.

Wait, so they wasn't trying?

 

[TransTrender]

Talk about completely missing the point, jeez

 

[Unknown Soldier]

'Make a good movie'.

Wait, so they wasn't trying?

The only thing they were trying was to check boxes imposed by their 'inclusivity standards'

Making good content was at best 6th or 7th down the list of what they were trying to do

 

[DeafTourette]

The only thing they were trying was to check boxes imposed by their 'inclusivity standards'

Making good content was at best 6th or 7th down the list of what they were trying to do

So having non-white actors is why The Marvels failed? They aren't good actors? Or what? Why is every time a movie fails, folks bring up "inclusivity" and blame the failure on THAT and not the story telling?

I liked it but I can see the faults in the story. Too many pivots in the editing as well.

 

[bitbydeath]

So having non-white actors is why The Marvels failed? They aren't good actors? Or what? Why is every time a movie fails, folks bring up "inclusivity" and blame the failure on THAT and not the story telling?

I liked it but I can see the faults in the story. Too many pivots in the editing as well.

Probably referring to inclusivity in terms of the made up message that continues to get hammered into them.

Eg. Nobody even thought to complain about Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon or Eddie Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop.

The issues all stem from a rhetoric that only exists today.

Same for Women in movies (Ripley, Sarah Connor etc), everyone was loved equally, I guess you could say that nobody saw colour back then, or sex.

 

[jason10mm]

So having non-white actors is why The Marvels failed? They aren't good actors? Or what? Why is every time a movie fails, folks bring up "inclusivity" and blame the failure on THAT and not the story telling?

I liked it but I can see the faults in the story. Too many pivots in the editing as well.

I don't think the Marvel's failed on non white characters, but rather female ones, and non famous to boot. Had it starred Brie, that Priyana Chopka lady, and Nicole behaire or whatever black starlet with some name recognition you want, point is, NO DUDES are interested in a girl lead show and NO WOMEN are either. There is not, and never will be, an audience for the Marvel's beyond a 100 mill box office or so. Comic superheroes are 95% male audience and it is insanity to think otherwise.

Now give me an Empowered show, let's see how it does.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Comic superheroes are 95% male audience and it is insanity to think otherwise.

This is just not true, many surveys in the past decade alone show that the female audience ranges anywhere from 20 to 40% of the fandom for comic books; iirc it's only been with in-store surveys that are primarily male, women don't go to the nerd stores I guess, but they do order/read online.
With cons (like comic con) the split can even get as high as 40+%

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I don't think the Marvel's failed on non white characters, but rather female ones, and non famous to boot. Had it starred Brie, that Priyana Chopka lady, and Nicole behaire or whatever black starlet with some name recognition you want, point is, NO DUDES are interested in a girl lead show and NO WOMEN are either. There is not, and never will be, an audience for the Marvel's beyond a 100 mill box office or so. Comic superheroes are 95% male audience and it is insanity to think otherwise.

Now give me an Empowered show, let's see how it does.

I'm too lazy to try to find google research numbers (assuming they exist), but just going on perception I see comic books like sports.

As a whole it's a male dominated thing. That doesn't every product line in the entire industry is male dominated, but in general. And whether it's male or female spectators or ticket purchasers (may or may not be the same person), the male sports and comics will get the most attention. Thats not to say Wonder Woman or a championship Womens soccer or tennis tournament gets bad draws, but holistically female focused content will likely be stinker sales. Heck, WNBA and Womens pro hockey leagues only exist because the pro leagues subsidize it. If they werent they wouldnt be around.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe women just dont like watching meatheads score goals or fantasize about being Hulk or or Wolverine smashing and clawing shit. and even if they do, they'd rather watch Spiderman than Madame Web.

No doubt tv shows and rom com movies will skew women. Does anyone care men dont care or get catered to make it more 50/50? Nope. If it's female orientated content, so be it and who cares. I'll watch sports. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Neon Xenon]

Disney is also said/rumoured to be pivoting after Marvels.

Sony Scraps Future "Madame Web" Plans? - Dark Horizons

So just what is the future of Sony’s Spider-Man Universe (SSMU), also known as the Sony Pictures Universe of Marvel Characters (SPUMC), in the wake of the opening of “Madame Web”? Several outlets have been doing post-release analysis of the film’s failure to launch this weekend – taking just...

www.darkhorizons.com

They’re clearly not understanding what is wrong if that is their takeaway but ah well, whatever leads to better content.

Assuming this quote from a anonymous Disney executive is true, this particular level of missing the damn point is the least surprising thing to come straight from one of them.

So let me get this straight: The underperformance and/or middling-to-negative reception of releases like The Marvels and Madame Web (these are the two films mentioned by the anonymous exec, that's why I'm citing them here) can't possibly be due to factors like the writing, direction, scripts, budgets, or incompetent marketing leading up to release (this in particular applies to both of these films). Can't be the films and shows the themselves that are the issue. No, it's the people that are wrong for not accepting their Twitter-levels of "female empowerment" and their not conforming to "regressive gender stereotypes".

This is just one supposed quote, but it really does highlight how out of touch people in charge can be.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I never even heard of Silk.

 

[jason10mm]

This is just not true, many surveys in the past decade alone show that the female audience ranges anywhere from 20 to 40% of the fandom for comic books; iirc it's only been with in-store surveys that are primarily male, women don't go to the nerd stores I guess, but they do order/read online.
With cons (like comic con) the split can even get as high as 40+%

I think this is rolling in stuff like manga. I'm talking classic 'murican COMIC BOOKS with supes, flash, capt america, etc. I think I've only ever seen girls read manga, never once a comic off a gas station rack (back when those existed), not even an Archie.

 

[DeafTourette]

I think this is rolling in stuff like manga. I'm talking classic 'murican COMIC BOOKS with supes, flash, capt america, etc. I think I've only ever seen girls read manga, never once a comic off a gas station rack (back when those existed), not even an Archie.

I have several women friends who read American comic books. I actually follow several comic heads who are women on social media (like Fantastic Frankey or JStoobs). My oldest friend is a female comic reader.

In fact, some of the best and well known artists and writers in comics are women. Pencillers, inkers, etc. Or did people think Gail Simone is a man?

List of female comics creators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[TheCed]

Just make good movies
No more Morbius or Madame Web please.

Look at Into the Spiderverse. It's well written, well directed, well acted, the visuals are gorgeous and the music is so good... It's the complete opposite of what would come to mind when I think Sony Movies.

Silk can be good, I'm open minded about it but don't try to cram your 9th sinister six attempt into this one again... Let it just be a good show.

And for those who are saying "Diversity is the problem": Morbius happened...

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I think this is rolling in stuff like manga. I'm talking classic 'murican COMIC BOOKS with supes, flash, capt america, etc. I think I've only ever seen girls read manga, never once a comic off a gas station rack (back when those existed), not even an Archie.

No, those were comics, not manga/manwha

 

[jason10mm]

No, those were comics, not manga/manwha

I dunno, I've looked at a few of the "sources" where these statistics come from and there is very little reliability of the data in the way something like an actual census would produce. But doesn't really matter, the proof is in the pudding, it's pretty obvious where the $$$ goes and which type of fan will click a like button for free and which one puts their money down for product. Chasing the former at the expense of the latter is where ruin lies....

 

[RSLAEV]

I hope this doesn't turn out to be true. I've come to really enjoy watching studios burn money.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

But doesn't really matter, the proof is in the pudding

what proof exactly? Because there's nothing out there that says guys and women don't want to see female lead heroes or that 95% of the audience is male.

 

[Fake]

Those particular folks don't even know what a woman is, so I can't expect they know what a man is either.

 

[jason10mm]

what proof exactly? Because there's nothing out there that says guys and women don't want to see female lead heroes or that 95% of the audience is male.

I can put up a list of male led action/superhero films and female ones. The box office is pretty clear which ones make bank and can more safely justify a high price tag and which ones need a lower budget. The audience is also very skewed, most of the women showing up are brought by their SO, I've seen VERY little evidence of parties of girls going to these films like you would see for Barbie, Twilight, 50 shades, etc. These films are pretty consistent with a 60:40 male:female split, that holds pretty true for the female led films (just fewer total viewers) suggesting that women are not coming out in support of these films, it's the same crowd, just fewer engage with some films.

Not to say that it is ALL males, or that women can't create in this space, but the pendulum has swung faaaaar over to where execs are somehow convincing themselves that there is a massive pool of women just waiting to see superhero chicks bashing each other with laser powers, then going to have a cry about their boyfriends over ice cream. Then, shockingly, this type of film tanks and they blame misogynistic men instead of understanding that the audience just doesn't exist for that product.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Because Sony can't just let Marvel handle Spider-Man. They have to run the IP into the ground themselves.

That's cute. Considering Marvel and all.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I can put up a list of male led action/superhero films and female ones. The box office is pretty clear which ones make bank and can more safely justify a high price tag and which ones need a lower budget.

Whatever list you produce isn't going to matter, whatever the results still won't be proof that no men and no women want to see female lead heroes, and that the audience is 95% male; there's literally no proof of that.

 

[DeafTourette]

I can put up a list of male led action/superhero films and female ones. The box office is pretty clear which ones make bank and can more safely justify a high price tag and which ones need a lower budget. The audience is also very skewed, most of the women showing up are brought by their SO, I've seen VERY little evidence of parties of girls going to these films like you would see for Barbie, Twilight, 50 shades, etc. These films are pretty consistent with a 60:40 male:female split, that holds pretty true for the female led films (just fewer total viewers) suggesting that women are not coming out in support of these films, it's the same crowd, just fewer engage with some films.

Not to say that it is ALL males, or that women can't create in this space, but the pendulum has swung faaaaar over to where execs are somehow convincing themselves that there is a massive pool of women just waiting to see superhero chicks bashing each other with laser powers, then going to have a cry about their boyfriends over ice cream. Then, shockingly, this type of film tanks and they blame misogynistic men instead of understanding that the audience just doesn't exist for that product.

Everyone and their mom went to see Endgame... That was the culmination of 10 years of Marvel interconnected movies.

Morbius was male led and people REJECTED it. Men and women. Because it was BAD! Just like Madame Web is BAD!

 

[jason10mm]

Everyone and their mom went to see Endgame... That was the culmination of 10 years of Marvel interconnected movies.

Morbius was male led and people REJECTED it. Men and women. Because it was BAD! Just like Madame Web is BAD!

Morbius made $167 mill off a 75mill budget. I'd say it was pretty appropriately budgeted for its audience (the same m:f ratio as all these films, BTW). Not everything needs to be a knock out of the park. Blue Beetle (100 mill budget and 130 mill BO) would be a better male lead example I think, it had a pretty strong message that did NOT resonate.

Compare The Marvels, 200 mill with 270(!!!!) budget. THATS a disaster. Or Flash ($270 mill off 220 budget). Even Black Widow (379 mill off 200 mill budget) was probably a loss. Aquaman 2 is around there as well (433 BO off 205 budget) but a bit better.

My point is if you are gonna swing for the fences with budget, then you need to NAIL DOWN the core audience. The early DCU and phase 1-3 MCU did this very well. If you are aiming for the fringe of the comic book audience, better clutch those pursestrings because its a much harder sell.

 

[DeafTourette]

Morbius made $167 mill off a 75mill budget. I'd say it was pretty appropriately budgeted for its audience (the same m:f ratio as all these films, BTW). Not everything needs to be a knock out of the park. Blue Beetle (100 mill budget and 130 mill BO) would be a better male lead example I think, it had a pretty strong message that did NOT resonate.

Compare The Marvels, 200 mill with 270(!!!!) budget. THATS a disaster. Or Flash ($270 mill off 220 budget). Even Black Widow (379 mill off 200 mill budget) was probably a loss. Aquaman 2 is around there as well (433 BO off 205 budget) but a bit better.

My point is if you are gonna swing for the fences with budget, then you need to NAIL DOWN the core audience. The early DCU and phase 1-3 MCU did this very well. If you are aiming for the fringe of the comic book audience, better clutch those pursestrings because its a much harder sell.

While Monica was introduced in the first Captain Marvel movie, she was a minor character and didn't contribute to the story. Introducing her in WandaVision but NOT a phase 4 movie was a mistake. Same for Ms. Marvel (I loved the show, though). Like Black Panther was introduced in Captain America 3 and they showed AHEAD OF TIME how much a badass he is BEFORE his own movie. I don't blame Feige but I blame Chapek for letting first drafts to go ahead as the main movie.

If they had shown the movies were still interconnected, and had more of a unifying vision for all of them AND didn't rely on first time writers to pen these movies... MCU wouldn't be in the situation they're currently in.

And just an aside, it was the DCEU with Flash and Aquaman and such... The DCU is coming this winter starting with Creature Commandos. Then it's Superman Legacy in July 2025. And so on from there.

 

[Doom85]

Morbius made $167 mill off a 75mill budget. I'd say it was pretty appropriately budgeted for its audience (the same m:f ratio as all these films, BTW). Not everything needs to be a knock out of the park. Blue Beetle (100 mill budget and 130 mill BO) would be a better male lead example I think, it had a pretty strong message that did NOT resonate.

Compare The Marvels, 200 mill with 270(!!!!) budget. THATS a disaster. Or Flash ($270 mill off 220 budget). Even Black Widow (379 mill off 200 mill budget) was probably a loss. Aquaman 2 is around there as well (433 BO off 205 budget) but a bit better.

My point is if you are gonna swing for the fences with budget, then you need to NAIL DOWN the core audience. The early DCU and phase 1-3 MCU did this very well. If you are aiming for the fringe of the comic book audience, better clutch those pursestrings because it’s a much harder sell.

I mean, the first Aquaman did 1.1 billion, I can’t blame WB for assuming the sequel would do at worst 75% of that.

Flash was a long delayed movie with multiple reshoots and edits IIRC, plus no one could have foreseen Ezra’s illegal activities before they started filming. I don’t think a Flash movie without the controversy attached, that also has Supergirl’s intro and Keaton’s Batman, would have been risky at 220 million budget.

Disney sabotaged Black Widow by doing the simultaneous Disney + premium shit, I assumed at the time it wouldn’t affect ticket sales that badly, but since they’ve stopped doing it, I assume the higher ups realized it was a mistake. Same thing with WB not releasing Dune Part 2 on streaming simultaneously, like they did with the first.

My real surprise here is that Morbius made that much, I wouldn’t have assumed it even managed to pass 100 million.

 

[Jsisto]

So you're telling me this character was bit by some kind of radioactive spider and now has developed super powers? What a novel idea. I’m sure she will have many trials and tribulations as she comes to terms with these powers and how they effect her and those around her and ultimately grow as a person.

Im sorry, but I’m so fucking tired of this shit. No offense to comic book fans, I hope you enjoy it if that’s your thing.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

So you're telling me this character was bit by some kind of radioactive spider and now has developed super powers? What a novel idea. I’m sure she will have many trials and tribulations as she comes to terms with these powers and how they effect her and those around her and ultimately grow as a person.

Im sorry, but I’m so fucking tired of this shit. No offense to comic book fans, I hope you enjoy it if that’s your thing.

The thing with silk is that she was bitten by the exact same spider as peter, which connects them at a higher level; silk can always find peter no matter where he is. She also didn't have many "trials and tribulations", she was locked in a room for a decade to prevent the world from ending; she has no problem with her powers and she has nobody around her.

She's far more interesting that way than gwen or miles, who are just alternate spider-man.