putting all the bad kids in one room so they won't learn and continue their bad behavior.
what a great idea.
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(NJ) Anti-bullying law sparks new fights as accused students appeal in court
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putting all the bad kids in one room so they won't learn and continue their bad behavior.
what a great idea.
LizardKing
Member
Also, freedom of speech is constitutionally guaranteed in schools confirmed by the supreme court.
Better than them ruining the chances of the kids who aren't total fuck ups.
But it isn't...? At least not entirely. Certain forms of expression and speech are not subject to the first amendment in schools.
LizardKing
Member
In general it is... Just to say it isn't is not genuine
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_speech_(First_Amendment)
Devolution
Member
Maybe you should read School Specific Factors of your own link.
He said "at least not entirely" and your response was "in general it is." If what you were attempting to do was counter what he said, you failed. Essentially, you said the same thing.
you're right, the system should just give up on them completely and hope they drop out
Also those are all cases of punishment in the school. No one in this thread would be complaining if they suspending the bully, but criminal penalties for speech is a completely different matter.
LizardKing
Member
Yes, which are entirely arguable in some of these situations. Try telling the SC he called her a grenade or a horse. Really doubt that holds up. Also as above poster said these are grounds for school punishment not legal prosecution. You said students rights were not protected but in most cases they are. Trivial child name calling hasn't been contested yet in the sc so I think brushing it off as students have no 1st amendment rights is pretty presumptuous when the general rule is that they do except in some extreme circumstances.
Seems like it's parents choosing to brings these matters to the courts because they won't accept the school-board discipline and the stain on their child's "permanent record."
do you really believe abuse by one student to another wouldn't be one of those circumstances? really?
Fury Sense
Member
Unless you're facing a gang, just stand up for yourself like a big boy or girl.
keep condoning the shitty behavior. keep demanding change from the party that did nothing wrong.
putting all the bad kids in one room so they won't learn and continue their bad behavior.
what a great idea.
Usually it's actually good idea. This method reduces the class size into a much smaller size then regular class and teacher can pay more attention for them thus making it easier to control the class environment. It's the same thing when you have kids who are slow learners. You need to make class just for them so teacher can focus only on their needs.
You're going to have to do us a favor and establish what "trivial child name calling" is, because I don't get the sense that we're arguing on the same ground here. Children are being verbally abused (and oftentimes physically abused!) by other children. Abuse is typically something that is punishable by law.
It's worth it to mention that I don't think many people feel we should be putting children into jail or whatever else you've conjured up as a justification for your stance, but getting the law into it has become a bit of a last resort.
And to the person above me saying to just "stand up for yourself like a big boy or girl," I'm going to have to politely ask you to discreetly go fuck yourself. We don't need more people sticking up for bullies.
LizardKing
Member
Look, you don't need to exaggerate your case to try to prove your point. Abuse is a strong word and one that would hardly be used in a lot of these circumstances. Like calling someone a horse for example. And yes, I truly believe the sc would not hold them legally accountable.
And we'll I'm not sure what the punishment is exactly. Other than the write up it doesn't explain. But I'm against that the legal system needs to be involved.
You should take a stroll over to that Wikipedia website you linked to, type in "verbal abuse" and see what you find. You trust the website enough to link it here and weakly substantiate your position, so you should be fine with what it has to say about bullying.
"Most cases"? What "most cases" are you referring to? Got any sources?
And when the kid isn't a big boy or girl? Or they are facing a group?
On a scale from 1 to 9000 how offended are you...what level would you be at?
LizardKing
Member
Ok fine you can call it what you want it doesn't change anything. For the record I detest bullying. I was bullied. I just think the law is unconstitutional, misguided, and there are better ways to deal with it in school rather than involving the courts.
The parents of the kid went to court to appeal the school's punishment, the school wasn't the one that brought it before the judge.
LizardKing
Member
Most cases as in cases other than the exceptions listed in my list above.
That's not a convincing argument that "most" cases of bullying are protected at all. You're a victim too, so were you protected?
LizardKing
Member
Which only happened because they passed a law to put it on their record, and be held accountable outside of school, thereby allowing people to appeal, thereby getting the courts involved. Unnecessary
Depends. If a kid was being harassed to the point of self harm, that should have external consequences regardless of where it happens. What happens in school is not necessarily not a crime. Speech is not necessarily benign, nor protected.
The law and courts are brought into schools for many other things (drugs, physical abuse, I assume damaging property as well). Why not verbal abuse?
I feel like students would be more reluctant to bully others knowing their actions will be punishable by an establishment larger and more significant than a damn high school.
LizardKing
Member
I said that their 1st amendment rights were protected in most cases (or situations)
You're going to have a difficult time convincing people that being held legally accountable for verbally abusing someone is in some way a bad thing.
What would've happened at your school if a student wore a shirt saying "Fuck you"?
Sjp the gift that keeps on giving.
LizardKing
Member
Depends on how they are being harassed. But in general no. And you should assume speech is protected unless it is proven to not be.
That second part is debatable but it's your opinion and fine. As for the first part, those other things are illegal outside of school too.
Again, you guys and girls post on GAF. Do you seriously see no irony in this?
Fury Sense
Member
Well, you gotta learn to stand up for yourself eventually, no matter how perfect a little snowflake you are. Taking a kid to court for calling you a horse is an attempt to ruin their future by staining their record more than it already is. Look at the recent GAF bullying thread. The self-confessed bullies live with deep remorse. You think they should have had their college prospects and careers stifled as well? Kids are gonna be kids whether you take them to court or not. Give the kid detention and move on.
I meant to include "group" when I said gang. I didn't really grow up with legit gangs, so I used the term more loosely than I meant to. Being big isn't about physical size either...
LizardKing
Member
Not sure. Probably told to turn it around, or sent home, parents called, suspended. Nothing involving the legal system
Looks like times are changing from when you were in school then:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545908
A West Virginia teen arrested and accused of nearly inciting a riot after a confrontation with a teacher over his National Rifle Association t-shirt has inspired dozens of students across his county to wear similar apparel in solidarity.
Verbal abuse is punishable by law outside of schools.
And what is your point about posting on GAF? What are you trying to even say?
Sorry, but plenty of kids grow up and don't bully others (I, unfortunately, am not in that camp and I do regret it). Living with deep remorse later isn't sufficient enough for suppressing bullying now.
LizardKing
Member
Bullies should be punished. Nobody is arguing against this. They are a major problem among children since the beginning of time. It makes you feel horrible and can severely harm someone's self esteem.
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
The "kids will be kids" argument is the absolute worst. What about the kids who aren't little shits to everyone around them? Why do bullied children and only bullied children have to go through the process of learning to stand up for themselves in order to stave off psychological torment? It's just such a burden to place on young bullied kids, especially when adults are knowingly complicit in their suffering.
LizardKing
Member
Yeah read that, got released 30 mins later. Principal and police backpedaled. Caused a shit storm.
That's all I meant by group, I assumed you were being general with the term gang
And no, it isn't about physical size, but if someone has been on the receiving end of bullying for years, telling them to just stand up for themselves is not going to do a lot except make the kid resent you. Those kids, regardless of size, need more than just being told to stand up for themselves. And even when they do, they often get in trouble themselves for being violent since no one has shown them HOW to stand up for themselves, which disincentivises them ever doing it again.
Of course it depends on what has happened, you are the one making absolute statements about things.
Fury Sense
Member
I'm not trying to defend abuse. Abuse is a lot more than teasing, which much of bullying is. And bullying is an issue for both parties involved. It's not like one person is just evil and the other is good. If it were that black and white, we wouldn't be having a discussion, we would just go back and forth saying "yes" and "no". Oh wait, that's what your reply is. If you want a response or actually care about the issue, you should take the time to explain your opinions.
RE: Kids will be kids.
Okay, you're right. That simplification implies we shouldn't punish them for their wrongdoings. I say we should totally punish & educate and do what is reasonable. But you really shouldn't expect court hearings or juvenile hall to change a problem child into a keen student.
LizardKing
Member
Bullying on GAF is extremely common and widespread.
Bullying is more than teasing, I don't know what you're talking about. It's constant. It's repeated put downs and shame that does nothing but make the bullied feel like shit. It's abuse.
videogamer
Banned
You are wrong. Use your brain and reread the article. The bully and his parents are the ones bringing this in court.
This bears repeating. Teasing is not bullying, bullying is not teasing.
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