Um, no? Like, no.
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(NJ) Anti-bullying law sparks new fights as accused students appeal in court
- Thread starter Ripclawe
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Um, no? Like, no.
Devolution
Member
I see we've hit the "boys will be boys" laziness.
It's had a biblical view on crime and punishment since the start.
And given the bullying tactics of Christianity to keep people in line, it's actually the exact opposite of what you're saying.
Fury Sense
Member
I don't want to get into semantics, but to me "abuse" sounds a lot more severe than the type of bullying that I'm considering when framing my statements.
I think we've polarized ourselves unnecessarily. We're both anti-bullying. I just think that systematic punishment & fear of punishment doesn't address the problem at its root. I don't think it'll be effective in stopping or preventing bullying because kids that take it far enough to reach those consequences don't change any sooner than the one's that don't. They get in trouble and get out and they don't change.
A bully has to learn how his actions affect others, not how to manage what he can do and get away with and how to game the system. It's my understanding that bullies see what they do very differently than victims. I know it sucks to be the one that has to stand up to a bully. I've been there. But life isn't fair, and I don't think you can reasonably expect to change human behavior in a meaningful way simply through stricter punishments.
I think we've polarized ourselves unnecessarily. We're both anti-bullying. I just think that systematic punishment & fear of punishment doesn't address the problem at its root. I don't think it'll be effective in stopping or preventing bullying because kids that take it far enough to reach those consequences don't change any sooner than the one's that don't. They get in trouble and get out and they don't change.
A bully has to learn how his actions affect others, not how to manage what he can do and get away with and how to game the system. It's my understanding that bullies see what they do very differently than victims. I know it sucks to be the one that has to stand up to a bully. I've been there. But life isn't fair, and I don't think you can reasonably expect to change human behavior in a meaningful way simply through stricter punishments.
Do you agree that fear of punishment is a normal strategy for reducing the incidence of other crimes?
Fury Sense
Member
Yeah, it's totally normal and common.
lol wow what a stretch.
So why does it not address the issue in this case? Or are you against it for all crimes?
Snapshot King
Member
I understand your issue here. You are mainly talking about teasing, or kids just being assholes, while bullying is systemic verbal/physical/digital abuse. That being said, that line is pretty thin.
The issue that shows up is in the bolded. You are divorced from reality if you think this is the case. It may be so for some, but for every one of those, there are those who know exactly what they were doing and wish it had gone farther. I distinctly remember kids at my highschool wishing that someone they were bullying would kill themselves.
Fury Sense
Member
When it comes to personal matters, I don't think that type of strategy is best. It fits the passive-aggressive (American?) trend of superfluous litigation people are whining about in this thread. When it comes to non-personal issues, sure, sue away and improve the ruleset. But if it's between people, I think the best solution comes from the same place as the problem. I don't claim to know the answer, but I suppose this opinion does stem from my philosophical beliefs.
How is this legal? Are insults now considered crimes? Would me calling someone an idiot be bullying?
I assume it'll be challenged under freedom of speech laws.
Though it's ridiculous, there are tons of laws already in place to deal with a lot of these problems. Sexual harassment, criminal harassment, stalking, etc.
I hate bullies, was bullied for several years as a kid and by high school, I was one of those laugh with them so they can't laugh at you types, so I can't stand them. But taking them to court over insults is a bit far.
Why not suspend them from school? Kick them off sports teams, make them take mandatory anti-bullying classes etc.
I assume it'll be challenged under freedom of speech laws.
Though it's ridiculous, there are tons of laws already in place to deal with a lot of these problems. Sexual harassment, criminal harassment, stalking, etc.
I hate bullies, was bullied for several years as a kid and by high school, I was one of those laugh with them so they can't laugh at you types, so I can't stand them. But taking them to court over insults is a bit far.
Why not suspend them from school? Kick them off sports teams, make them take mandatory anti-bullying classes etc.
Snapshot King
Member
I'm not sure you read it correctly. Schools are slapping kids with bullying on their records, and parents are so upset that it could hurt their college chances that they're going to court to challenge it.
Not as much as a stretch as your original claim that stopping bullies is a terrible return to ancient biblical law.
Snapshot King
Member
You're right, these parents are totally insane.
Fury Sense
Member
Hmm. You've given me something to think about. I really don't know what the breakdown is of bullying severity, especially as it applies to the OP. How many of those cases involve bullies of that intensity? There are some people that are hopeless, I agree. There won't be any gains trying to deal with them person to person. But at least the first example about horse faces sounds like it was probably below that range.
I'm all for dealing with bullying, but this is way over the top.
Next they'll be charging them with terrorism for science experiments gone wrong.
Snapshot King
Member
Sure, some people are always going to fall on the wrong side of the line. The problem is that intense bullying from say, 1 person, in many cases isn't as bad as only casual shittiness from say, 100 people. The frequency remains, but the effect is worse because it feels like the entire world is against the bullied. There's also the issue of snitching. At my highschool, a kid, within the same month, was both tazed(yes with a stungun, and yes, IN class) and lit on fire (just their pant leg, but still). When they decided they had had enough, many people, even those who were indifferent or felt bad for them, thought that they were a dirtbag for snitching.
So, personal matters like stalking?
I'm saying your claims about this being a "return" to biblical law are silly. Things were even harsher and less empathic in biblical times since outsiders were killed for their misdeeds and words.
You know what God does to kids who make fun of ugly people? Murders them by being slaughtered by bears.
So yeah, your comparison was the fallacious part.
That's what I said. All those court precedents are about kids getting suspended etc. at school.
None of them were charged with a crime in court.
Snapshot King
Member
The entire argument of the pussification of modern society is based on a fallacy. There is a dramatic difference in systemic bullying using all the tools of the modern age to drive someone to suicide, and Billy and Jimmy getting expelled because they had a fistfight over a bet or a parking space.
The American criminal justice system is definitely more punitive than anywhere else in the developed world.
I certainly don't support bullying but I don't see how criminalising kids will help anything in the long term.
Some bully parents think that the victimized kids should just grow some balls and suck it up. They think that all this, lawsuits and caring about feelings, makes kids weak. They say the world is a tough place and that kids need to learn how to deal with bullies on their own. Unfortunately when someone smuggles a knife into school and stabs the fuck out of their bully child, they always get a little salty. :\
I see this sentiment in different places. And it always makes me think the bad thoughts.
Maybe this. Any parent of a bullying child must be both bullied and severely publicly humilitated, in full view of the child. With all that pain on the face of their parent, all that shame and anguish and confusion and rejection at the hands of everyone around them, fully absorbed by the child. Then you beat the parent's ass. Just beat it.
The US has a very black and white attitude to crime and punishment. It is one of the few countries that still employs the death penalty, it has a horrendous amount of people in gaol, forced labour, three strikes rule, etc. From my point of view I see the biblical comparisons, if you think it's silly; well your entitled to your opinion.
In fact, I might support the retroactive beating of former bullies.
We have to make the world a better place, somehow. "oh you thought it was all behind you? Well...it might not be, for your victims. They may still be affected. You feel remorse? Well...get ready to feel worse."
We have to make the world a better place, somehow. "oh you thought it was all behind you? Well...it might not be, for your victims. They may still be affected. You feel remorse? Well...get ready to feel worse."
One of the schools close to me has an interesting way of dealing with bullying/cyber bullying. It is been driven by the students themselves. They formed a student council to discuss issues happening in the school. They also had a bunch of older students act as mentors for newer students.
Any kids with problems with bullying seem very willing to go to their peers for help and the mentors discuss issues that crop up and take with the school staff. It seems to work well because the students themselves try and solve the issues. They have a charter etc.
I can see this working much better as it driven by the kids themselves.
Any kids with problems with bullying seem very willing to go to their peers for help and the mentors discuss issues that crop up and take with the school staff. It seems to work well because the students themselves try and solve the issues. They have a charter etc.
I can see this working much better as it driven by the kids themselves.
sketchsanchez
Member
fixed?
This is a hell of a statement. While teachers are human, and some treat students they don't like unfairly, I've seen nothing to suggest its at the epidemic level as students bullying each other is.
I don't like adults interfering too much in conflicts between kids. They should make sure it doesn't get out of hand but you cripple kids when you butt in to sort out their problems or protect them. Kids need to learn to resolve issues by themselves. Parents should be more like a coach, supporting their kid to stand up for themselves and face their fears/weaknesses.
For normal or minor bullying I think this is the way to go, if it's severe you can't really jeopardize the health of a child but generally it does more harm to the child being overprotective. The bullies certainly won't stop, if anything things usually get worse after adults are interfere. Really parents these days are so fucking weak and fail to see that their own children might not be perfect, this goes for both the bullies and the bullied childrens parents.
For normal or minor bullying I think this is the way to go, if it's severe you can't really jeopardize the health of a child but generally it does more harm to the child being overprotective. The bullies certainly won't stop, if anything things usually get worse after adults are interfere. Really parents these days are so fucking weak and fail to see that their own children might not be perfect, this goes for both the bullies and the bullied childrens parents.
how does a parent's bias toward their children work against their best interests in the case of the bullied child?
I see it all the time in instances where the children are little hellions when parents aren't around, and parents think their kids are little angels.
But what "imperfection" works against the child when they're being bullied? Too soft? Too timid?
I see it all the time in instances where the children are little hellions when parents aren't around, and parents think their kids are little angels.
But what "imperfection" works against the child when they're being bullied? Too soft? Too timid?
Sometimes just an inability to deal with threats, other kids or anger issues - often this is due to their parents interfering too much. If you never learn to handle these situations- if your parents always are there to protect you, isn't it safe to assume that you would lack in that department?
Kids need to be knocked down from time to time(not violently necessarily), in order to learn how to get up again. Simple as that. Parents should encourage their kids to get up by themselves, not carry them in pity.
well dealing with "threats" and dealing with members of your "safe" peer group, that mean you harm, are a lot different.
As a child, I knew that actual "threats" were serious, and wouldn't hesitate to deal with them. Strange adults, mean dogs, gangs of older kids, those are clear threats.
When you have someone who is a member of your 'group', and they're actually an enemy, that's fucking confusing. I remember the things that I would want to do back to people but couldn't because it would be clearly wrong, plus I didn't want to actually hurt these people, outside of my own feelings of pain.
It's that confusion thats messing things up so bad. Why is this person my enemy when he should be my friend? And leaving children to their own devices is not the way, to let "social darwinism" work itself out like they're little animals. They're not animals, they're higher creatures who can be taught the right way of things, and that requires the intervention of the mature adult intellect.
This is why we still got psychopaths as bosses. Because we breed psychopaths, victims, and heroes.
Kids need to learn to deal with failure, obstacles, and yes even conflict. But some maladjusted victim of violence or bad parenting continuing the cycle of abuse on another child is NOT A PROPER TEACHING INSTRUMENT.
As a child, I knew that actual "threats" were serious, and wouldn't hesitate to deal with them. Strange adults, mean dogs, gangs of older kids, those are clear threats.
When you have someone who is a member of your 'group', and they're actually an enemy, that's fucking confusing. I remember the things that I would want to do back to people but couldn't because it would be clearly wrong, plus I didn't want to actually hurt these people, outside of my own feelings of pain.
It's that confusion thats messing things up so bad. Why is this person my enemy when he should be my friend? And leaving children to their own devices is not the way, to let "social darwinism" work itself out like they're little animals. They're not animals, they're higher creatures who can be taught the right way of things, and that requires the intervention of the mature adult intellect.
This is why we still got psychopaths as bosses. Because we breed psychopaths, victims, and heroes.
Kids need to learn to deal with failure, obstacles, and yes even conflict. But some maladjusted victim of violence or bad parenting continuing the cycle of abuse on another child is NOT A PROPER TEACHING INSTRUMENT.
I have to tell ya GAF, as much as I love the spiritual justice here, I think its an a far too stringent law.
Maybe its my own ignorance, but if not, the law should require a pattern of behavior, not just an incident. Those who have been bullied know, it hardly occurs just once. And if its facility wide, and administration has been asked for help by the student and did little or nothing, then the administration should be culpable.
I agree that parents first and then and teachers and administrators should be the ones to handle this. But parents have completely abdicated their responsibility for this, teachers are discouraged and prevented from acting on it, and administrators are too afraid of angering parents and causing an issue with responding to bullying.
So in short, legal action is all that's left. I'm trying to be respectful of people's right, and make sure there is a real burden of evidence the plaintiff has to meet (pattern of action/disregard for bullying), but my sympathies are with the students just trying to live and learn at school. Not with the kids that see them as a verbal punching bag to make themselves feel superior.
Maybe its my own ignorance, but if not, the law should require a pattern of behavior, not just an incident. Those who have been bullied know, it hardly occurs just once. And if its facility wide, and administration has been asked for help by the student and did little or nothing, then the administration should be culpable.
I agree that parents first and then and teachers and administrators should be the ones to handle this. But parents have completely abdicated their responsibility for this, teachers are discouraged and prevented from acting on it, and administrators are too afraid of angering parents and causing an issue with responding to bullying.
So in short, legal action is all that's left. I'm trying to be respectful of people's right, and make sure there is a real burden of evidence the plaintiff has to meet (pattern of action/disregard for bullying), but my sympathies are with the students just trying to live and learn at school. Not with the kids that see them as a verbal punching bag to make themselves feel superior.
ThisWreckage
Banned
This will likely be challenged under free speech. I'm not sure if an insult can be a crime. I don't think it should be. Bullying is an enormous issue, but I don't feel like this is the solution. As a society, we can not force people to be great parents and it's a shame that courts are having to get involved to make children accountable.
when did this ever happen? May as well just outlaw childbirth, because parents aren't going to suddenly start becoming responsible.
DR2K
Banned
Obviously which is why this law is in place.
Dude Abides
Banned
These aren't criminal proceedings.
May as well outlaw sex then. That'll have the desired effect...
but I have to think about this remedy. How effective it would be in the face of other things, or would it be expected to be the sole remedy to prevention and everything else.
We really need more than a law. But maybe the law will help the necessary people get involved and start being hands on.
I'd prefer they just let the family members crowd around him and beat his ass, but yes, inconveniencing him in court for school bullying doesn't seem that bad, does it? Not like he's going to jail. This is more of a formal citizen censure.
"The court rules that you're officially a little shit. Be a better person. Case closed. Bring in the next little shit." *gavel bang*
It isnt just parents, my father and my friends father were horrible men. We do not emulation any of the things that they did.
They need other adult role models besides their parents.
Ya I see this a lot. They often seem to be the ones who claim to be against bullying and verbal abuse then proceed to make snarky comments to put down anybody they disagree with.
nailbombxx
Member
No prosecution. Just needs better parenting.
A more effective law would be to stop letting assholes multiply.
A more effective law would be to stop letting assholes multiply.
forgets that we were talking about the bullying of kids.
But makes a good attempt at accusing people of hypocrisy anyway.
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