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HBO Original | The Last of Us | Part 1 OT | Endure & Survive

Swift_Star

Banned
The only thing I agree with you is the how quickly the romance was it felt off even if it was a straight couple.
So, let me tell you this… gay guys fall in love and start relationship faster than straight people… so it haven’t felt off to me because I can understand. And they’re living in a post apocalyptic world with no human interaction and touch. So any human affection would become love fast given how needy they probably were.
 
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CliffyB's Cock Holster
Not especially impressed with the 3rd episode. It was well played but lets be honest, Bill and Frank's relationship was only interesting because it was between two gay guys. Were it a straight relationship it'd be trite and cliche as hell. Real paint-by-numbers stuff.

The characterization in the game was far more original and, to me, more convincing given the scenario. Not to mention they turned Frank into the most stereotypical "artistic" gay guy imaginable. I guess Linda Ronstadt is less obvious than them bonding over show-tunes (!) But still...
 

Yoboman

Member
I really enjoyed episode 3. Most of it was "UP opening meets Brokeback Mountain", but it was well made/acted and pretty funny, and structure-wise for certain more engaging than the first two episodes.
I still don't think this is close to top Walking Dead (or top LOST for that matter), but this episode cemented it as at least good.

What I liked the most is how different it is from the game, makes it easier to completely set the two things apart and I'll just say I feel extremely lucky having experienced all this via The Last of Us game in 2013.

I found hilarious how my fiancée was even more repulsed by all the "hairy sequences" than I was. But in the end she cried and I haven't felt a thing (someone who tear up/cries during a TLOU playthrough). I think I'm waaay too familiar with live-action media to fall for something I've seen a thousand times already. Cancer/suicide?

Please, Nip/Tuck did it infinitely better as a TV show twenty years ago (DESTROYING me for life in the process). Just as destroyed as I was when the best Clint Eastwood directed movie did the same thing that very year.
Lost is an interesting comparison. The heavy use of flashbacks to fill us in on side characters definitely gives me some minor Lost vibes. And in a way that was often some of the best parts of Lost too. I expect we will see flashbacks for most of the characters who appear in the season. We know Ellie will have one. Really interested to see what they do with Sam/Henry, David, if they introduce Ish. Want more backstory on Tommy in the 20 years that passed too
 

Yoboman

Member
Not especially impressed with the 3rd episode. It was well played but lets be honest, Bill and Frank's relationship was only interesting because it was between two gay guys. Were it a straight relationship it'd be trite and cliche as hell. Real paint-by-numbers stuff.

The characterization in the game was far more original and, to me, more convincing given the scenario. Not to mention they turned Frank into the most stereotypical "artistic" gay guy imaginable. I guess Linda Ronstadt is less obvious than them bonding over show-tunes (!) But still...
You sure about that? People still talk about the Up intro 14 years later. If it was a straight romance, well done and tragic it would be getting all the same wraps without the haters crying
 

Swift_Star

Banned
Not especially impressed with the 3rd episode. It was well played but lets be honest, Bill and Frank's relationship was only interesting because it was between two gay guys. Were it a straight relationship it'd be trite and cliche as hell. Real paint-by-numbers stuff.

The characterization in the game was far more original and, to me, more convincing given the scenario. Not to mention they turned Frank into the most stereotypical "artistic" gay guy imaginable. I guess Linda Ronstadt is less obvious than them bonding over show-tunes (!) But still...
It's the same characterization, they just made different choices.
And there's nothing more cliche than showing a gay couple relationshop being ran to the ground. happy gay relationships in media are not that common.
 
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CliffyB's Cock Holster
You sure about that? People still talk about the Up intro 14 years later. If it was a straight romance, well done and tragic it would be getting all the same wraps without the haters crying

I thought it was just really basic as a piece of writing. Like I said, well played, but I felt it really sold the concept short.

Like, despite establishing there are mass graves of executed civilians literally minutes away, Frank's main concern is renovating the local boutique? Is this supposed to idyllic or in any way admirable?
 
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Yoboman

Member
If it were a women it would also be boring and annoying since I wanna see Bill not a dumb romance. The extra point that makes it even more annoying is you know the WHY its here and how its shoved in your face AND there's the fact that pretty much everything goes after this Social Currency now so it just makes it more annoying reminds me how much I hate it taking me out of the story in so many shows/stories. I miss artistic integrity, it is so hard to find now.
If you want an actual interesting non agenda pushing gay "romance" (If you wanna call it that) watch Hannibal that's probably the best one I can think of that made a lot of sense with the story actually.
Other great LGBTQ representation that would be up your alley that "make sense":

- Silence of the Lambs
- Dahmer
- Bates Motel
- Ace Ventura Pet Detective
 

Roni

Gold Member
It also cost the movie "Arrival" an Oscar nomination.

https://variety.com/2016/film/in-co...val-manchester-by-the-sea-silence-1201941479/



It's horribly overused to the point of being laughable...kind of like hearing Jimi Hendrix or Creedence Clearwater in a Vietnam film.

Also, to some of the troopers here that feel compelled to defend the episode at every conceivable turn, perhaps you've haven't seen very many love stories? That's not a slam or anything. But maybe you're just like the people tearing up at Max Richter's music? Understandable the first couple of times, right?
Modern people are so averse to repetition...
 
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Roni

Gold Member
Right? God forbid new love stories to be made!
It's the reason this generation finds it so hard to achieve anything. Unless it's novelty, they're not interested. Except you can't get good at anything unless you're willing to do it over and over again.
 
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Stooky

Member
Guy on the right looks more like Joel then Joel.
Excuse Me Reaction GIF by One Chicago
 

Gamer79

Predicts the worst decade for Sony starting 2022
Yea the third episode could of been Broke Back Mountain 2. I do not mind they show he was in a relationship but they did not need to spend nearly a whole epsiode on it. The Last of US is a story about survival not bro-mance. If they spend maybe 15-20 mins on their whole relastionship it would not be a problem. My issue is the focus of the show was totally derailed for this one. By far the weakest episode so far. Most of the love is because of the whole LGBT++++++++++ support of the show. I felt it was an episode out of place while also agenda pushing.
 
The critical drinker is an idiot. And hes proving it with takes like this.

Bill is whats known as a foil in literature. A character who mirrors the protagonists current or eventually character arc bur deviates from him in important ways. It can be used for foreshadowing. To emphasize the character of the protagonists or to provide a cautionary take for the protagonists to learn from.

The parallels between their stories will only become more relevant as Joel develops, and thus its perfectly fine for Bill to die here. The episode was about him hut its also about what Joel is going to become.

The fact TCD cannot see this when it is very clear and plain just tells me he doesn't understand storytelling.
Reading too much into it. Bill is one and done. There won’t be any contrasting, no foreshadowing. He foils nothing - he was put there because he was gay and had a gay lover. You well know that if it was a heterosexual couple we wouldn’t have had this episode.

The fact that you cannot see this when it is very clear and plain just tells me you don’t understand modern filmmaking.
 

Gamer79

Predicts the worst decade for Sony starting 2022
It's the reason this generation finds it so hard to achieve anything. Unless it's novelty, they're not interested. Except you can't get good at anything unless you're willing to do it over and over again.
So we put love stories into end of the world type movies and call that brilliant? If I wanted a love story I would watch a romance film. It's out of place in a world people are struggling to survive. It's nothing more than woke agenda pushing.
 
I’ll add this as well - the game was more nuanced. They weren’t this perfect couple - they fell out and never reconciled. Can’t have this in the show - showing gay couples not being perfect isn’t going to happen. In addition to that, Bill meets no one for years and the first person he meets happens to be a man, gay and in his age group. What are the odds. And anytime I see couples being perfect while living in isolation for years, I roll my eyes. The game did it better.
 
The whole “spends time on characters you’ll never see again” critique is so whack. That’s basically everyone you encounter in TLOU not named Tommy or his wife. They all die and you move on to the next chapter.
Not really. I don’t think we’ll see a whole episode of any other character.
 

Woggleman

Member
So we put love stories into end of the world type movies and call that brilliant? If I wanted a love story I would watch a romance film. It's out of place in a world people are struggling to survive. It's nothing more than woke agenda pushing.
It shows how some people thrive and still find joy even when the world around them is completely going to hell. At the end of the first game Joel said to Ellie to find something worth fighting for. Bill found something worth fighting for.
 

Fredrik

Member
I’ll add this as well - the game was more nuanced. They weren’t this perfect couple - they fell out and never reconciled. Can’t have this in the show - showing gay couples not being perfect isn’t going to happen. In addition to that, Bill meets no one for years and the first person he meets happens to be a man, gay and in his age group. What are the odds. And anytime I see couples being perfect while living in isolation for years, I roll my eyes. The game did it better.
What are the odds that Joel lost his 14yo daughter and stumbled onto a 14yo girl that ends up being like a daughter that is also immune to the thing that is killing everyone else on the planet?

And it wasn’t perfect, Frank said he had bad says with Bill, and they showed a bit of that, but he had more good days with him than anyone else.
For me it was a fresh story especially since the macho bearded character clash with the feminine hollywood stereotype we usually see.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Yea the third episode could of been Broke Back Mountain 2. I do not mind they show he was in a relationship but they did not need to spend nearly a whole epsiode on it. The Last of US is a story about survival not bro-mance. If they spend maybe 15-20 mins on their whole relastionship it would not be a problem. My issue is the focus of the show was totally derailed for this one. By far the weakest episode so far. Most of the love is because of the whole LGBT++++++++++ support of the show. I felt it was an episode out of place while also agenda pushing.

I find this line of thought bizarre, given that the game is entirely about relationships. All the zombie shit is completely secondary to the story of Joel and Ellie's relationship, as well as Joel's relationship with Sarah, Tommy, and Tess... and Ellie's relationship with Marlene, Riley and David. Then there's Bill, and Henry & Sam. The Last Of Us is about people. Human relationships.

And now people are complaining that the TV show based on the game that had relationships at its absolute centre... has relationships at its absolute centre.

Do you think The Last Of Us was such a huge success because it was yet another post-apocalyptic zombie story? No. Of course it wasn't. Had it just been that it would have done no better business than Days Gone. And it would never have been made into a major TV show.

If the show concentrated on the cordyceps zombie stuff, it'd be fucking dull as hell, because we've seen all of it before, many, many times.
 
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Toons

Member
Reading too much into it. Bill is one and done. There won’t be any contrasting, no foreshadowing. He foils nothing - he was put there because he was gay and had a gay lover. You well know that if it was a heterosexual couple we wouldn’t have had this episode.

The fact that you cannot see this when it is very clear and plain just tells me you don’t understand modern filmmaking.

No, its very obvious that we are meant to see similarities in Joel's later actions that we perceived in Bill. I understand plenty about modern filmmaking, and foils are a favorite of modern filmmakers just as much as older ones because it allows you to play with the protagonists and still make the audience connect to their story via a proxy. I won't be surprised of joel straight up quotes one of the final lines Bill says at some point.

His being gay literally has zero affect on this storytelling device, it could've been a woman and it would've played out exactly the same. The point was that Joel's story is about finding the one person to bring meaning to a meaningless existence, and thsts exactly what Bill did, and his letter to Joel's telling him that he did that is going to send Joel down the path to doing the same.

The rest is just projecting. The fact its two guys is completely irrelevant unless you implant your own political ideals onto the narrative.
 
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Toons

Member
It's the reason this generation finds it so hard to achieve anything. Unless it's novelty, they're not interested. Except you can't get good at anything unless you're willing to do it over and over again.

You say this like the original game didn't release in the highest of the zombie outbreak novelty and yall ate it up anyway.

Audiences never want anything new. But some themes, some stories are universal human experiences. Falling in live happens in apocalyptic times too, yes, maybe even more so. You can look at real examples of diffuse times in historical society to find countess examples of this.

And no, love stories are not going to go out of fashion until people stop falling in love. Which isn't going to happen. Even in an apocalypse. It's human nature, you donr need to do this post modern "emotions rrrr so outDATED" thing. Same with revenge stories, and coming of age stories, and every other universal human experience.
 
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RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
After having watched episode 3, in your mind, try and expand on the story of Bill and Frank as it was in the game for 1 hour. The story as told in the game, Bill was closed off from the world and refuses to venture out from his little town, set traps to prevent infected and people from coming into the town. Frank hated his guts. And he owes Joel some favors and Joel has come to collect payment in the form of a battery. What do you imagine that story will play out like in ~60 minutes of TV?

Bill and Frank sit around and argue all day?
Bill and Frank fight off raiders and infected for 60 minutes?
What motivates Frank to leave the safety of Bill's town in turn getting him bitten and then hangs himself?

Love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin. Hate is as much a cliche and tropey as a love story. The letter Joel picks up in the game is just i hate you and hate your guts and i'd rather die than live here with your old ways of just being stuck. It works in the game because it is optional side content you as a player can read. The letter does not flesh out the motivation for why Frank hates Bill.




You are not painting an accurate picture of the game. The game is about human connection in a post apocalyptic world. The game opens with Father and Daughter relationship, then we see Joel and Tess relationship, then we see Bill and Frank relationship, then Joel and Ellie relationship then Sam and Henry relationship then Tommy and Maria relationship. Even the "baddies" had communities and friends and relationships. Hope and light underpinned every relationship you met on the journey. Frank had hope for a better life, Bill was happy in his own little world and never wanted to leave. Sam and Henry were very happy and hopeful for a better life, Henry wanted to ride a motorcycle. Tommy and Maria made a better life and community for themselves and were married and happy.


Episode 3 is another take on the Bill and Frank story even though underneath it is very similar. What the show and game have in common;

Bill was a shut-in prepper type who as far as we know never really had relationships when things were normal
He found Frank and was able to have a connection with someone
He loved Frank
He was able to connect with Joel and Tess


In the game, Bill served as a cautionary tale to Joel while in the show he served as an example of the possibilities and joy of connecting with people. Both stories as told in the show and game pushed the story forward.


See i don't understand this take. You are mistaking vagueness as nuance. Till this day some people still don't realize Frank and Bill were in a relationship. But also the gay porn Ellie took from Bill is anything but nuanced. There is nothing hamfisted about the portrayal of love between two people. What exactly is nuanced about the story in the game, they barely touched on Bill relationship, all he said was Frank was his partner and the whole spiel about "once upon a time i had someone i cared about and all that is good for is getting you killed"


The only connection you have with Bill in the game is that Bill owes Joel some favors and a fetch quest for some batteries.

The show establishes that

1. Tess/Joel and Frank/Bill had a system of communicating with one another
2. Tess/Joel and Frank/Bill had meals together
3. Bill trusted them enough to give them the code to his compound which suggests they made regular trips there
4. Upon his death Bill left everything to Joel

Are any of the above things you see Bill in the game doing?

Bill's town in the show served the same purpose in a less violent way.
Incredibly well put.

Gotta hand it to Druckman, the guys a fucking genius and knows how to wind up a certain mindset with his art, roll on episode 4 so I don't have to read so much utter bollocks thinly disguised as homophobia but this is why I like this forum, every cunt gets a voice even those stuck in the 50's
 
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What are the odds that Joel lost his 14yo daughter and stumbled onto a 14yo girl that ends up being like a daughter that is also immune to the thing that is killing everyone else on the planet?

And it wasn’t perfect, Frank said he had bad says with Bill, and they showed a bit of that, but he had more good days with him than anyone else.
For me it was a fresh story especially since the macho bearded character clash with the feminine hollywood stereotype we usually see.
1. Sarah is 12 and Ellie is 14.
2. Relatively high since Joel is not living in seclusion.

The bad days were when Frank wanted to paint a fence a different colour or some other domestic shit like that.

And masculine gay characters? Brokeback Mountain came out 16 years ago.
 
I know im talking way in advance but considering Season 2 is coming out at some point wit the events of TLOU 2, only thing that will stick out is that the real life Ellie wont evolve physically. I liekd the transition from walking around with a youngster Ellie and in part 2 she got lankier, mora adult like etc. Bella is already 19 so at least physically she wont really change.
 

Fredrik

Member
1. Sarah is 12 and Ellie is 14.
2. Relatively high since Joel is not living in seclusion.

The bad days were when Frank wanted to paint a fence a different colour or some other domestic shit like that.

And masculine gay characters? Brokeback Mountain came out 16 years ago.
Sarah is 14 in the TV show. And yeah masculine gay characters are extremely rare and Brokeback Mountain had two standard young pretty boy Hollywood actors. What TLOU does is very unique, try finding comparable other examples.
 
This show is great, but saying it's the best ever is a bit of a stretch. I don't think it's as great as the first three or so seasons of The Walking Dead.

I bought the box sets in 2016, and was instantly hooked. I didn't watch it back when it started in 2010. But I lost interest in AMC's show as they brought in too many characters in the end, and made it too drawn out and confusing the longer it dragged on. Should that happen with The Last of Us, I'd throw around similar criticism.
 

hinch7

Member
Just rewatched parts of ep. 3 and man.. Bella Ramsey just can't act in this. Something about her demeanour and fake American accent that throws me off every time.

Its jarring because nearly every other cast is on point.
 
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Roni

Gold Member
So we put love stories into end of the world type movies and call that brilliant? If I wanted a love story I would watch a romance film. It's out of place in a world people are struggling to survive. It's nothing more than woke agenda pushing.
Kek, no it isn't. Love is the only way out of a situation like that.
You say this like the original game didn't release in the highest of the zombie outbreak novelty and yall ate it up anyway.

Audiences never want anything new. But some themes, some stories are universal human experiences. Falling in live happens in apocalyptic times too, yes, maybe even more so. You can look at real examples of diffuse times in historical society to find countess examples of this.

And no, love stories are not going to go out of fashion until people stop falling in love. Which isn't going to happen. Even in an apocalypse. It's human nature, you donr need to do this post modern "emotions rrrr so outDATED" thing. Same with revenge stories, and coming of age stories, and every other universal human experience.
I believe I'm ultimately on your side of the argument, mate. Though I still stand behind the point that most don't like repetition and only consider something great when it successfully breaks the mold. Though most people aren't trying to pose as critics in the real world, it's true. But then again we aren't discussing in the real world.
 
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Fredrik

Member
Just rewatched parts of ep. 3 and man.. Bella Ramsey just can't act in this. Something about her demeanour and fake American accent that throws me off every time.

Its jarring because nearly every other cast is on point.
Yeah that’s my main criticism, she kinda just stare, there is so little emotions shown on her face.
 

hinch7

Member
Yeah that’s my main criticism, she kinda just stare, there is so little emotions shown on her face.
Yep its really bad at points. Blank expression and stares. And when she does speak it doesn't feel natural at all. It looks like someone trying to act in a drama, and not how an actual person would act.

Not to throw shade at her because she is young and may need more experience in lead roles, but yeah.. not the best performances.

When you have side characters that way overshadow the main character, its an issue. Especially seeing as she is the main focal point for the whole series.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
Reading too much into it. Bill is one and done. There won’t be any contrasting, no foreshadowing. He foils nothing - he was put there because he was gay and had a gay lover. You well know that if it was a heterosexual couple we wouldn’t have had this episode.

The fact that you cannot see this when it is very clear and plain just tells me you don’t understand modern filmmaking.

It was a wasted $100M budget down the shitter. But hope we resume TLOU after that disturbing episode.
 

Valt7786

Member
Just rewatched parts of ep. 3 and man.. Bella Ramsey just can't act in this. Something about her demeanour and fake American accent that throws me off every time.

Its jarring because nearly every other cast is on point.
I'm convinced after reading about her being "genderfluid" and all that nonsense, that's the only reason Druckmann wanted her for the show. There HAD to have been better actresses that played AND looked the part better than Ramsey.
 
I'm convinced after reading about her being "genderfluid" and all that nonsense, that's the only reason Druckmann wanted her for the show. There HAD to have been better actresses that played AND looked the part better than Ramsey.
When she said " Genderfluid " she mean she doesn't care wtf people called her. That's it. It has nothing relate to Druckman wanted her for the show.
I think she is okay, need to see more in future episodes when Ellie and Joel is back to main focus.
 
Sarah is 14 in the TV show. And yeah masculine gay characters are extremely rare and Brokeback Mountain had two standard young pretty boy Hollywood actors. What TLOU does is very unique, try finding comparable other examples.
So it has to be non-feminine, gay relationship where the characters aren’t pretty? Anything else you want to add to the list? In any case - does that episode of Black Mirror where Falcon is gay count?
 

Fredrik

Member
So it has to be non-feminine, gay relationship where the characters aren’t pretty? Anything else you want to add to the list? In any case - does that episode of Black Mirror where Falcon is gay count?
Don’t think I’ve seen that but everything counts. I’ll take a look. I just like when they go outside of the stereotypes we’ve seen a million times before on movies, TV and on social media.
 

Topher

Gold Member
I'm convinced after reading about her being "genderfluid" and all that nonsense, that's the only reason Druckmann wanted her for the show. There HAD to have been better actresses that played AND looked the part better than Ramsey.

What gives you the impression Druckmann was in charge of casting?
 
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