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I replayed TLOU2 and I still don't know what to think about it...

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Notice how you ignored the entire concept of infected humans turning into zombies?
I'm not saying the world cant have Fantasy elements but the world has to follow logic to be believable. In games like Nier and 13 Sentinels has lots of fantasy elements, way more than TLOU series but devs still go out of their way to make their world believable.

I'm sorry but "somehow they can" just doesn't cut it.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
I'm not saying the world cant have Fantasy elements but the world has to follow logic to be believable. In games like Nier and 13 Sentinels has lots of fantasy elements, way more than TLOU series but devs still go out of their way to make their world believable.

I'm sorry but "somehow they can" just doesn't cut it.
Infected humans are not believable.

You can keep pointing out different examples, but you can't keep ignoring the infected humans in the world of The Last of Us.
 

Arsic

Loves his juicy stink trail scent
The issues with the game are 3 fold :

Joel died in a whack way. It was never an issue he got gotted, it was done lame. Let him take some people down with him ffs.

Playing as Abby should've been 3 hours tops not 13.

Lastly, the ending was not satisfying in the least. Joel would've curb stomped everyone if Ellie had been the one who died.
 
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Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Infected humans are not believable.

You can keep pointing out different examples, but you can't keep ignoring the infected humans in the world of The Last of Us.
But we know how got infected which inspired by real events.
file-20190611-32321-1uflesn.jpg

its not realistic but believable its how writers can make fantasy world believable for their audience.
 
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bit_blaster

Neo Member
Notice how you ignored the entire concept of infected humans turning into zombies?


I don't believe Ellie could perform surgery on Joel in TLOU 1, but she did it. If this was based on reality, there would be no infected or Jerry would've known that he couldn't create a vaccine.

The list goes on.

Acceptance is hard because you believed in your theory that is nothing more than fan fiction.
the discussion is more about consistent writing than it is realism.

From what we saw in the first game, the Fireflies have to use violent force as opposed to reason to try and get their way, and Joel fights them off with the goal of saving his surrogate daughter from death. Ellie was unaware of the circumstances and never confesses to wanting to sacrifice herself, otherwise she would have known Joel was lying at the end.

It seems like conjecture to just assume in the first game Ellie knew when nothing suggested it other than what Marlene said which for all we know could have been her emotionally manipulating Joel.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
But we know how got infected which inspired by real events.
file-20190611-32321-1uflesn.jpg

its not realistic but believable its how writers can make fantasy world believable for audiance.
But we know it doesn't actually work on humans and infected humans is not real.

You can't keep ignoring this. lol.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
the discussion is more about consistent writing than it is realism.

From what we saw in the first game, the Fireflies have to use violent force as opposed to reason to try and get their way, and Joel fights them off with the goal of saving his surrogate daughter from death. Ellie was unaware of the circumstances and never confesses to wanting to sacrifice herself, otherwise she would have known Joel was lying at the end.

It seems like conjecture to just assume in the first game Ellie knew when nothing suggested it other than what Marlene said which for all we know could have been her emotionally manipulating Joel.
Ellie knew Joel lied.
In TLOU 2, Joel told Ellie that making a vaccine would've killed her. She knew Joel killed people to save her and she was still mad.

I don't know why you guys try so hard to go against the narrative of the game, even bringing up things that's not even in the game.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Looks like he doesn't agree with what many people took away from the end if he has to retcon/recontextualize Joel's actions at the hospital in part 2.
Many people believe Joel stopped it because he knew they couldn't create a vaccine, even though there's no dialog in the game from Joel that proves their point.


Druckmann: Joel has made this decision for Ellie, and now she has to deal with the consequences of that choice. But again I’m not putting a judgment on it, because we do what we feel is right. And for Joel, the decision to choose Ellie over the vaccine was pretty consistent with his character. He’s the same guy from the prologue of the first game — when he refuses to pick up another family as he and Sarah are driving out of Austin — all the way to the end. He’s willing to do whatever it takes to protect his tribe.

Writer of the story > You.

I don't need to continue this even further. You're just denying facts at this point.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Ellie knew Joel lied.
In TLOU 2, Joel told Ellie that making a vaccine would've killed her. She knew Joel killed people to save her and she was still mad.

I don't know why you guys try so hard to go against the narrative of the game, even bringing up things that's not even in the game.
How is Ellie knowing Joel lies about something mean she would've wanted to abandon Joel like that? That doesn't seem in character of the Ellie who's bond with Joel we've seen grow throughout part 1.

Part 2 Ellie doesn't get told what the Fireflies were pulling and she was already mad from the years of lying. She doesn't have a good grasp of the situation to be making sound judgements on it.
 
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bit_blaster

Neo Member
Ellie knew Joel lied.
In TLOU 2, Joel told Ellie that making a vaccine would've killed her. She knew Joel killed people to save her and she was still mad.

I don't know why you guys try so hard to go against the narrative of the game, even bringing up things that's not even in the game.
I was talking about the first game, she was suspicious of Joel at the end but trusted him anyways since she didn't know what happened. She didn't have a choice whether Joel was there or not.
 

Hunnybun

Member
It's obviously a great game, the technical aspects and set pieces etc are some of the best ever, but imo the story was poor and deserved its criticism.

The basic problem was that - while the first game felt like art in that it created a vivid, frightening world and likeable, complex, believable characters, and used the combination to explore the general human condition without imposing hectoring sermons - the sequel abandoned that for a shallow and crudely communicated "message" about the "cycle of violence".

To me that's just unambiguously inferior writing right from the off - and there was plenty more wrong with it on top. There was almost nothing nuanced or intelligent about its writing at all, to be honest.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
I was talking about the first game, she was suspicious of Joel at the end but trusted him anyways since she didn't know what happened. She didn't have a choice whether Joel was there or not.
I know you were talking about the first game, I'm talking about both.

She didn't trust that he told the truth, she believed he lied to her. She asked the question to see if he would tell the truth, and he didn't.

The story is very simple, but people want to make it overly complicated because they're having a hard time accepting what actually happened.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Infected humans are not believable.

You can keep pointing out different examples, but you can't keep ignoring the infected humans in the world of The Last of Us.
Fictional worlds still needs to follow consistent rules, even if those rules are different from real life.

The rules that tlou world estabilished were that its an otherwise realistic world except for the virus and its effects.
Basically only things pertaining to the biology surrounding the virus are allowed to not follow real life rules, though even that still needs to establish rules of its own (like the fact zombies use sound to orient themselves).
Humans will still the bleed if they get shot, communities will still behave like real world communities, the sun will rise from the east, etc. Sure there can be space for some suspension of disbelief, though that should be stuff like surviving from a really bad fall, but they shouldn't go too far off from reality. And most importantly, really shouldn't be related to critical points in the plot.

Imagine if the ending of TLoU2 was Ellie founding out hidden ancient alien technology that allowed her to go back in time and save Joel. Would you really consider that acceptable because zombies aren't realistic already thus any unrealistic thing is a valid?
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
Many people believe Joel stopped it because he knew they couldn't create a vaccine, even though there's no dialog in the game from Joel that proves their point.
I'm sure you even you can see most people believe Joel saved Ellie because he didn't want to lose another "daughter" and not because the low vaccine chance.
Writer of the story > You.

I don't need to continue this even further. You're just denying facts at this point.
Nope, Druckmann neglects to mention that the Fireflies were the first ones to take away Ellie's autonomy.

Druckmann is not an infallible writer. The game's events > Druckmann's take.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Fictional worlds still needs to follow consistent rules, even if those rules are different from real life.

The rules that tlou world estabilished were that its an otherwise realistic world except for the virus and its effects.
Basically only things pertaining to the biology surrounding the virus are allowed to not follow real life rules, though even that still needs to establish rules of its own (like the fact zombies use sound to orient themselves).
Humans will still need the bleed if they get shot, communities will still behave like real world communities, the sun rises from the east, etc. Sure there can be space for some suspension of disbelief, but those shouldn't go too far off from reality, and most importantly, should never be related to critical points in the plot.

Imagine if the ending of TLoU2 was Ellie founding out hidden ancient alien technology that allowed her to go back in time and save Joel. Would you really consider that acceptable because zombies aren't realistic already thus any unrealistic thing is a valid?

Are infected humans who are zombies realistic or not?
 

bit_blaster

Neo Member
I know you were talking about the first game, I'm talking about both.

She didn't trust that he told the truth, she believed he lied to her. She asked the question to see if he would tell the truth, and he didn't.
again, she didn't consent to sacrificing herself since she was taken by force and unaware.
The story is very simple, but people want to make it overly complicated because they're having a hard time accepting what actually happened.
No one is complicating anything, people just don't think the sequel took the series in a consistent direction.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
again, she didn't consent to sacrificing herself since she was taken by force and unaware.
That's irrelvent. What we know is the decision Ellie would have made if she was conscious. Joel knew it and that's why he lied to her.



again, she didn't consent to sacrificing herself since she was taken by force and unaware.

No one is complicating anything, people just don't think the sequel took the series in a consistent direction.

You are. If you say things that are not in the narrative of the actual game, then you're trying to make things more complicated than there actually are.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Are infected humans who are zombies realistic or not?
Doesn't matter. They are "real" for that world, but aliens and time travel aren't. Neither are the chances of mere vacine with limited supply bringing back the world from 25 years of chaos and anarchy. Those are the rules that world estabilished and thus should follow.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Doesn't matter. They are "real" for that world, but aliens and time travel aren't. Neither are the chances of mere vacine with limited supply bringing back the world from 25 years of chaos and anarchy. Those are the rules that world estabilished and thus should follow.

Are infected humans turning into zombie-like creatures possible in the world possible?

You're not doing yourself any favors being evasive with this question.
 

Hunnybun

Member
Consider me in the minority concerning the graphics. I LOVED the game in 4K/60 but didn’t feel the joy of playing after experiencing the beautiful textures of Demon’s Souls, Ratchet, etc.

I beat it but will plat it only upon receiving haptics and upgraded textures for PS5.

I cannot wait.

It's really a weird thing but going back to PS4 games, the ones I've found by far the most jarring visually are TLOU 2 and Uncharted 4. It's really weird - I always found them the most beautiful games of all before I got a PS5, but they both look really soft and have horrible muddy textures now. I don't think it's just the relatively low resolution, either, it seems to be the actual textures themselves.
 

bit_blaster

Neo Member
That's irrelvent. What we know is the decision Ellie would have made if she was conscious. Joel knew it and that's why he lied to her.
We don't know that, its easy to say you'd do something compared to actually doing it, especially when your life is on the line. Ellie was traumatized from having to kill David, so why should we believe she would be totally fine with dying herself?
You are. If you say things that are not in the narrative of the actual game, then you're trying to make things more complicated than there actually are.
I don't speak for others, but my criticism of 2 from an earlier comment was I felt they villainized Joel in an implausible way to get us to sympathize with Abby. Others also feel the sequel took the story in a poor direction even if you can argue it follows the first game well.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
That's irrelvent. What we know is the decision Ellie would have made if she was conscious. Joel knew it and that's why he lied to her.
No, we don't know what part 1 Ellie would've wanted, part 2 Ellie is a different person when she makes that statement based on incomplete information.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Are infected humans turning into zombie-like creatures possible in the world possible?

You're not doing yourself any favors being evasive with this question.
You're the only one being evasive here.
Answer, would you accept the ending i described with aliens and time travel? If not, why? After all isn't this a fictinal world with zombies and thus doesn't need to be realistic?
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
We don't know that, its easy to say you'd do something compared to actually doing it, especially when your life is on the line. Ellie was traumatized from having to kill David, so why should we believe she would be totally fine with dying herself?

We do. You lie for a reason, and that reason is to hide the truth. There would be no other reason for Joel to lie to her.

This was later confirmed in TLOU Part II.

What happened with David happens weeks prior. David didn't want to die at the hands of him, but she wanted to die for something meaningful.
I don't speak for others, but my criticism of 2 from an earlier comment was I felt they villainized Joel in an implausible way to get us to sympathize with Abby. Others also feel the sequel took the story in a poor direction even if you can argue it follows the first game well.

You don't create the dancing scene with Dina and Ellie and have Joel come in to save the day if you want to villainize a character. You wouldn't have Ellie wear Joel's jacket unless you wanted to symbolize something. You also wouldn't create the final scene of Joel telling Ellie he would do it all over again unless they wanted you to feel sorry for Joel and understand he made that decision because he loved her.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
You're the only one being evasive here.
Answer, would you accept the ending i described with aliens and time travel? If not, why? After all isn't this a fictinal world with zombies and thus doesn't need to be realistic?
They can create anything they want. If they wanted to, aliens could've infected humans as backstory because it's a fictional story.


I'm not being evasive, you said it doesn't matter knowing well that it's not "realistic" that doesn't adhere to real-world logic. People who ignore questions like that know the answer is "no" and they don't want to admit
 

Guilty_AI

Member
I'm not being evasive, you said it doesn't matter knowing well that it's not "realistic" that doesn't adhere to real-world logic. People who ignore questions like that know the answer is "no" and they don't want to admit
I anwsered this already. It doesn't need to be realistic but it does need to follow the rules the story itself estabilished, and the ending does a poor job at it. (calling attention to this bit in case you decide to be evasive again and ignore this bit)
They can create anything they want. If they wanted to, aliens could've infected humans as backstory because it's a fictional story.
So would you be fine or not with the ending i described? Stop being evasive
 
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sainraja

Member
SPOILERS AHEAD (1st and 2nd game)

Let's get the most brilliant part of the game first: The graphics, OMG this game looks awesome! It even scares me how PS5 games will look like at the end of this gen.

Secondly, the gameplay is great. I normally suck at games, but I know many people have praised this game for its combat mechanics.

Then comes the story, which is what I like the most of playing single payer games. This game is still confusing me about liking it or not.

I believe many people hate the story, not because it's good or bad, but because it didn't go they way they thought it would. I can say I definitely did not imagine things would go this in a sequel when I finished the first one.

Then there's the story itself. IMO, before considering if it's good or bad, I think the thing that it affects it the most (at least for me), is that they focused 99% on the characters and they forgot the world they built in the first game. The first game we were introduced to a world that was being consumed by a virus, and we saw the beginning of it in the introduction, as well as the world after the outbreak in the course of the story. In fact, the story focused on the cure which Ellie was the hope of it.

In the second game, the world passed to be practically irrelevant. We don't really see the outcome of Ellie being immune (except with Joel's lie), but as a world in general, is like nobody cared if there could be someone else like Ellie. Also, even without someone like Ellie, it's like everyone just stopped looking for something of a cure. I thought that in the second game, we would se more of the world affected by the virus. Like other countries, etc, but didn't happen, obviously.

So. said that the second game focused way too much in the characters, and while it's not a bad thing. If you take the story as is, and place it in another world, it would make sense. Make it so that they are in war, instead of an apocalyptic world, they could still do the same story. Like, why would a group of people be more dangerous than freaking zombies?! It's like if you are playing Resident Evil 2 and you would fear more the mob destroying the city, than the actual people getting turned into zombies, or something like that.

Going into the story, I think it was good in general, but not for this franchise. It would have made much more sense to make a new IP to do something like this revenge cycle, because I think the characters would have to focus more on the dangers of the world than. the drama of revenge. The moment the focused the story in revenge, the zombies and the different groups were just an obstacle, instead of real dangers our characters should look for.

I liked the Sepharite group because I believe that in such a world, in real life, many of these groups would be created in order to survive each in their own way. Some will go back to 0, others will have luxuries, etc. That's good, but they were just merely plot devices to get to the revenge main plot.

So the story was serviceable, it does make you feel many emotions, and it goes to places that not many writers dare to go and I think that's why it caused so much controversy, and to me that's great. Whether it was good or bad, I wish many writers in games and movies dare to do things as different and exciting as they did with this game. They need to take risks.

Joel's Death:
One of the main criticism about the game was the death of Joel. In the contained story that they were telling, it made a lot of sense, and it was executed well, but like I said, this particular story should've been made into other game. I believe that Joel should have died defending Ellie from some huge danger, not from being the target of revenge.
Well, I appreciate your way of looking at the story and the game. I feel the same way....I wanted them to focus more on the world and the virus but it's fine with the story they ended up telling but it didn't need the apocalyptic world that they established.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
I anwsered this already. It doesn't need to be realistic but it does need to follow the rules the story itself estabilished, and it doesn't. (calling attention to this bit in case you decide to be evasive again ans ignore this bit)

So infected humans becoming zombie-like creatures is not realistic and it doesn't adhere to real-world logic?

That makes your point irrelevant.

Creating a vaccine and curing the world is more realistic than the infected humans you see in TLOU.

So would you be fine or not with the ending i described? Stop being evasive

If it's explained well, then sure I'll accept it.

Your tricks aren't going to work, dude. There's no NEED to follow real-world rules when writing a story. You can do anything you want because it's your story.

I can create a story exactly like TLOU 1 and 2 and just create an alien invasion in Part 3. I don't need to follow any set of rules if don't want to.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
So infected humans becoming zombie-like creatures is not realistic and it doesn't adhere to real-world logic?

That makes your point irrelevant.
So you're really just going pretend the point i purposefully marked doesn't exist.

Got it, i'll just take your answer as "i totally understand what you said but i really really dont wanna admit it"

Thats it for my bad evil tricks of the mind.
 
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Bragr

Banned
I don't understand the whistle faction, it's such a bad idea, and I never expected such simple shit to get featured in a Last of Us game. It breaks a lot of the story.
 

bit_blaster

Neo Member
We do. You lie for a reason, and that reason is to hide the truth. There would be no other reason for Joel to lie to her.

This was later confirmed in TLOU Part II.
Thats not a reason for lying, thats just the act of lying itself.
What happened with David happens weeks prior. David didn't want to die at the hands of him, but she wanted to die for something meaningful.


You don't create the dancing scene with Dina and Ellie and have Joel come in to save the day if you want to villainize a character. You wouldn't have Ellie wear Joel's jacket unless you wanted to symbolize something. You also wouldn't create the final scene of Joel telling Ellie he would do it all over again unless they wanted you to feel sorry for Joel and understand he made that decision because he loved her.
Villainize isn't just making a character unlikable, but the entire game of TLOU2 essentially boils down to Joel's act of saving Ellie leading to the endless cycle of violence.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
So you're really just going pretend the point i purposefully marked doesn't exist.

Got it, i'll just take your answer as "i totally understand what you said but i really really dont wanna admit it"

Thats it for my bad evil tricks of the mind.

Not ignoring. Your games aren't working. Infected humans aren't real. What's more believable is creating a vaccine.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Thats not a reason for lying, thats just the act of lying itself.

He lied to hide the truth. You can't keep ignoring the story of TLOU 1 and 2. Its like you're not treating TLOU 2 as cannon.

Villainize isn't just making a character unlikable, but the entire game of TLOU2 essentially boils down to Joel's act of saving Ellie leading to the endless cycle of violence.
Because he did something wrong
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
DForce DForce For example, if androids show up out of no where in Red dead Redemption 2 with no explanation is that acceptable? I’m not saying devs are not allowed to put robots in western settings but it better have proper explanation for it to make the story consistent.

They can explain or not. They don't have to, but knowing ND (if that's the case) they would explain it.

Again, nothing you're telling me is proving your point. You're just having a hard time accepting things.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
DForce DForce For example, if androids show up out of no where in Red dead Redemption 2 with no explanation is that acceptable? I’m not saying devs are not allowed to put robots in western settings but it better have proper explanation for it to make the story consistent.
Dont bother, he fully understands what we're saying. Its just one of those cases where the person realizes the point they were making is wrong but are too proud to either admit their mistake or just go silent.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Dont bother, he fully understands what we're saying. Its just one of those cases where the person realizes the point they were making is wrong but are too proud to either admit their mistake or just go silent.
Yes, I fully understand what you're saying it it's rather stupid.

If you guys jump over the point that there are infected humans in TLOU and accept it, but can't accept that a doctor can create a vaccine in a hospital then you're cherry picking on what you choose to believe.


When it comes to believability. Creating a vaccine is more believable than infected humans turning into zombies.

You guys know this and this is why you guys don't want to acknowledge this point in a conversation. lol
 

Guilty_AI

Member
You are are right.

wall-talking.gif
Worst part is that there are actual good counter arguments to this point.

He could've argued for example that the ideas that some group could create a cure and save humanity with it, somehow, would fall within the notion of suspension of disbelief, similar on how we can accept an action hero movie bringing down organizations by himself. Its not perfect and can criticized, like saying tlou's realism is too gritty for that to be acceptable, but could've still made a case.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Worst part is that there are actual good counter arguments to this point.

He could've argued for example that the ideas that some group could create a cure and save humanity with it, somehow, would fall within the notion of suspension of disbelief, similar on how we can accept an action hero movie bringing down organizations by himself. Its not perfect and can criticized, like saying tlou's realism is too gritty for that to be acceptable, but could've still made a case.
The worst part is that you guys think you made a good counterargument. lol
 

EruditeHobo

Member
I'm not saying the world cant have Fantasy elements but the world has to follow logic to be believable. In games like Nier and 13 Sentinels has lots of fantasy elements, way more than TLOU series but devs still go out of their way to make their world believable.

I'm sorry but "somehow they can" just doesn't cut it.

That easily applies to lot of other elements of this series that you give a pass to because of your selectivity.
These are among the weirdest hills to die on I've seen on NG:

"So they just bumped into Joel, coincidentally??"
"They're gonna make a vaccine and distribute it to the whole world??"
"Why would they go with Abby on this big trek??"

Yeah, it's almost like the game actually deals with the nature of these things; the characters struggle with them, and outright talk about them, and we see how flash moments/decisions can have far-reaching impact on their lives. We see their torment and regret. And through a shifting point of view, we get wildly different perspectives on them as people in this incredibly harsh world!

You know it's almost like... this game riffing on the first game, in that very specific way. And that one single moment, in which Joel elected to keep the truth from Ellie, is a seed which grows, and then festers, and then tears apart their relationship! And it's almost like... they actually DISCUSS that moment, which is the dramatic climax of their relationship, as seen in TLOU2!

Imagine that.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
That easily applies to lot of other elements of this series that you give a pass to because of your selectivity.
These are among the weirdest hills to die on I've seen on NG:

"So they just bumped into Joel, coincidentally??"
"They're gonna make a vaccine and distribute it to the whole world??"
"Why would they go with Abby on this big trek??"

Yeah, it's almost like the game actually deals with the nature of these things; the characters struggle with them, and outright talk about them, and we see how flash moments/decisions can have far-reaching impact on their lives. We see their torment and regret. And through a shifting point of view, we get wildly different perspectives on them as people in this incredibly harsh world!

You know it's almost like... this game riffing on the first game, in that very specific way. And that one single moment, in which Joel elected to keep the truth from Ellie, is a seed which grows, and then festers, and then tears apart their relationship! And it's almost like... they actually DISCUSS that moment, which is the dramatic climax of their relationship, as seen in TLOU2!

Imagine that.
In TLOU 2 it felt that the game was trying to make us sympathies in both side but I just couldn't sympathies with Fireflies and Abby, because all I saw was them willing to sacrifice someone for a pipe dream. And Abby was willing kill her own comrades in order to protect the child and yet she never give a thought maybe thats how Joel felt when he tried to protect Ellie, which made me hate Abby even more.

Honestly TLOU2 made me hate every cast which made me care less about the overall story.
 
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