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DF: Returnal: Housemarque Pushes PlayStation 5 HARD - With Spectacular Results

Pedro Motta

Member
Oh I back up every bit of what I say. I *always* prefix an opinion that I make with "personally I". If I don't say that, then either you find a counter fact on the internet or accept what I'm saying is fact. I'm very very careful about that. If Returnal could do everything it's doing now @ native 4k, it would have. The GPU power just isn't there. Still a beautiful game though.
Brosky, I have a lot of 3090 RTX, do you know how many of them I use for games? None, there is nothing on PC that takes advantage of it, unless you want to play fortnite @4k60. PC master race is an embarracing place for decent games, enjoy your best in class FS2020 while we true gamers enjoy games, not GPU cocks.
 
Because these are two different concepts.
TAA can be applied after you upscalled the image or TAA can be used in a reconstruction of the image.

Upscaling is different from reconstruction.

Upscaling created pixels that doesn't exists.
Temporal reconstruction use pixels already created.

You can use AI upscaling for reconstruction too... but that is another case and don't use temporal frames... aka DLSS.
Reconstruction is a type of upscaling. I'm being trolled again right?
 
Brosky, I have a lot of 3090 RTX, do you know how many of them I use for games? None, there is nothing on PC that takes advantage of it, unless you want to play fortnite @4k60. PC master race is an embarracing place for decent games, enjoy your best in class FS2020 while we true gamers enjoy games, not GPU cocks.
Wait, you have a lot of 3090's, but you don't use any of them? Are they just sitting in the boxes still? I'll buy them off your hands, since you aren't using them. send me a PM.
 

assurdum

Banned
As a programmer, you can find out the limits on a GPU very quickly. I wrote a small OpenGL renderer to test the feasiblity of realtime lighting in a film production workflow. I took one asset - Shaggy from the Scooby Doo movie - and loaded all the textures (UDIM specs) on the character. It was well over 10 4k texture maps. The GPU crashed due to running out of memory. I quickly abandoned the effort.

If it was struggling with 1 asset and textures for that asset, no amount of optimization was going to have me render an entire scene (even if rasterized) of these characters.

I said all of that to say these devs aren't dumb. The PS5 architecture and API is very similar to the PS4. Yea, they may need some experience with ray-tracing as all these devs spent their lives around rasterization. But if we look at the facts (i.e. even the RTX 3090 can't do full on RT without DLSS), it's not a knock on consoles to assume they won't either for the entire generation.
What you say it's very approximative and not accurate at all. You need to handle the GE properly and the whole hardware customization to get the limit in rendition (something not possible without a deep knowledge of the hardware with a couple of years of training). Optimization is fundamental in a close hardware but I say an obilvious thing. Furthermore say the ps5 is very similar to the ps4 is laughable with all respect. Never said Housemarque are dump not sure where you get it from my post. Still you should post your criticism to someone who know more deeply the ps5 hardware indeed here where you can't have a contradictory if you are really interested to go in deeper to such stuff, you act as your opinions are incontrovertible laws.
 
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Pedro Motta

Member
Wait, you have a lot of 3090's, but you don't use any of them? Are they just sitting in the boxes still? I'll buy them off your hands, since you aren't using them. send me a PM.
They are used professionally don't worry hehehe. I have one on my workstation, tried Cyberpunk 2077...meh ok. Loved the game, played it on my 2070 Super at home, didn't feel the need to bring a 3090 home to play it.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Reconstruction is a type of upscaling. I'm being trolled again right?
Reconstruction is a type of reconstruction... it gives you a final native image.
Upscaling is upscaling... it give you a upscaling image.

That is why it is so hard to pixel count reconstructed image because the final imagem have full native pixels.
Now it is pretty easy to pixel count a upscaling image because it is not native but upscalled.

I wrote that in 2020: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/unre...ay-demo-running-on-ps5.1541166/post-258155622

PS. I was talking about DLSS 1.0... the DLSS 2.0 uses AI-based super resolution to reconstruct the image.
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
Brosky, I have a lot of 3090 RTX, do you know how many of them I use for games? None, there is nothing on PC that takes advantage of it,
Really? All you have to do is load up any of the latest games and watch GPU-usage. A fully optimized pipeline will have the GPU pegged in the high 90s%. That's an objective way of knowing the graphics engine is at least utilizing all the GPU. Playing around with settings and resolutions, etc.. can indicate to the average gamer the limitations of the GPU.

It's only common sense to know that these exclusive games can't perform anymore than what the devs have done. I have faith in their skills unlike a lot of people here. TLOU2 wasn't much of a leap over UC4 for example.

unless you want to play fortnite @4k60. PC master race is an embarracing place for decent games, enjoy your best in class FS2020 while we true gamers enjoy games, not GPU cocks.
That's rude Pedro. Thought you was better than that.
 

rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Brosky, I have a lot of 3090 RTX, do you know how many of them I use for games? None, there is nothing on PC that takes advantage of it, unless you want to play fortnite @4k60. PC master race is an embarracing place for decent games, enjoy your best in class FS2020 while we true gamers enjoy games, not GPU cocks.
Turn your GPU clocks to 0 hz and keep having the same joy.
 

SilentUser

Member
Welcome to hell, don't worry, you'll get used to it over time
Man, I'm still not used to it. I mean, Returnal is a good looking game with a solid 60 fps and great IQ, yet all I see here is people bickering and acting in a really childish way. Moving goals from PS fanboys and XB fanboys and PC fans always saying how magical PC gaming is, how incredible superior and infinite it is in every single aspect. Very tiring. And this happens all the time.

If only people could discuss things in an adult way here, but it seems it will never be the way. Anyway, back to enjoy my games, I guess!
 
tS9tJVV.gif


My exact reaction whenever I come into a thread on here.

On-topic: returnal is surprising alot of people and its awesome. congrats to the folks at Housemarque here's hoping it leads to bigger and better games for the foreseeable future.
 
I pretty much stayed up all night playing the game since it's unlock at 12am and I've already ran through 3 of the 5 bosses. I'm a little disappointed cause I saw people saying 25-35 hours to beat the game and I'm at 9 hours in already and more than halfway finished lol..Im pretty good at 'hard games' and rogue lites though and can plow through any type game tho. I've only died 4 times thus far and one of them was from dashing with barely any life and I went right off the side of a walkway :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I absolutely love the game tho, my game of the year thus far. But I'm going to beat it in half the time I thought I would smh

I love the game tho!
 
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LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
I think this is one of those cases where the game looks very good on your TV in front of you vs what Digital Foundry is nothing here which I appreciate. It's good to know even if it has little to no impact on my personal enjoyment of any games which want to use the HW/scaling tricks afforded by modern PC/console hardware.
 
Why y'all so mad about it tho? I said even 1080p looks good - but that doesn't make it 4K. Resolution alone doesn't dictate image quality.
From what ive seen demon souls runs at 1440p 60 reconstructed to 4k and nobody could tell the difference, ue5 was 1440p reconstructed to 4k and nobody could tell the difference some games using dlss2.0 1440p look better than native 4k. This is the point a 1080p game without reconstruction to 4k isnt the same as a 1080p game reconstructed to 4k. Arguing about this is simply ignorance.
 

Pedro Motta

Member
Really? All you have to do is load up any of the latest games and watch GPU-usage. A fully optimized pipeline will have the GPU pegged in the high 90s%. That's an objective way of knowing the graphics engine is at least utilizing all the GPU. Playing around with settings and resolutions, etc.. can indicate to the average gamer the limitations of the GPU.

It's only common sense to know that these exclusive games can't perform anymore than what the devs have done. I have faith in their skills unlike a lot of people here. TLOU2 wasn't much of a leap over UC4 for example.


That's rude Pedro. Thought you was better than that.
Oh come on don't be so sensitive.

What I'm saying is, I love PC gaming as much as the next man, but this pixel pushing narrative it gets old quickly.

Consoles are weaker YES, everyone knows that, but they don't cost the same as a modern PC. Not everyone has the same $$$ to buy the lastest tech.

Consoles are where the more inovative and creative games are made except maybe the indie space on PC, but then again you don't need a 3090 RTX for that now don't you?

EDIT: Bottom line is: if you own a 3090RTX you probably aren't giving it much use as anyone here is giving their PS5/XSX. And that's the real issue with PC gaming, all talk, no real advantage beside pixel pushing.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

Member
Graphically to me means loading down the GPU with more things to do. Memory is a non-issue. I'm not talking about "prettier" games than R&C for example. Which I think you are trying to say. The GPU has it's limits and we are already seeing it. No amount of optimization is going to push the GPU to levels rivaling a RTX3090/6900XT (which are also too slow for implementing full on RT @ native 4k/60FPS).
3080 aint cutting it either brah

"Last week the system requirements for the game the medium got released, and many wonder about the game targeting 30 FPS. As it now turns out, the game cannot even reach 60 FPS in 1920x1080 with a GeForce RTX 3080, and that's with Raytracing disabled."

 

ethomaz

Banned
I think this is one of those cases where the game looks very good on your TV in front of you vs what Digital Foundry is nothing here which I appreciate. It's good to know even if it has little to no impact on my personal enjoyment of any games which want to use the HW/scaling tricks afforded by modern PC/console hardware.
Actually DF is saying the game is fantastic in visual terms.... so DF is not disagreeing with you.
 

dyergram

Member
The skyboxes are incredible also I used the melee near one of those ledges with the orange lights. I think it was sending like a crescent of light and water out I’ve never seen an effect like that in a game.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Reconstruction is a type of upscaling. I'm being trolled again right?
I think you both are so close to each other in the back and forth.

Upscaling vs "Uprezzing." Which yes, is a thing as weird as it sounds, since it uses actual pixels whether duplicated or not where as traditional upscaling just stretches the source rez pixels usually resulting in a blurrier image if not on an even integer or high enough rez for diminishing returns to the native display.
 
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bender

What time is it?
Alex: "I'm not into playing on consoles myself."
Bender: "I'm not into listening to DF content with Alex." *click*
 
Reconstruction is a type of reconstruction... it gives you a final native image.
Upscaling is upscaling... it give you a upscaling image.

That is why it is so hard to pixel count reconstructed image because the final imagem have full native pixels.
Now it is pretty easy to pixel count a upscaling image because it is not native but upscalled.

I wrote that in 2020: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/unre...ay-demo-running-on-ps5.1541166/post-258155622

PS. I was talking about DLSS 1.0... the DLSS 2.0 uses AI-based super resolution to reconstruct the image.
Fuck even Nvidia has called dlss upscaling. The literal definition of upscaling is to improve the size or quality of something. Taa reconstruction is a method of upscaling.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
What I'm saying is, I love PC gaming as much as the next man, but this pixel pushing narrative it gets old quickly.
I don't pixel push though. DF does that. I'm all about the rendering because that's my wheel house.

Consoles are weaker YES, everyone knows that, but they don't cost the same as a modern PC. Not everyone has the same $$$ to buy the lastest tech.
There is a remarked difference between the Sony gamers and the Xbox gamers on these boards. It's very telling. I just gave a critique yesterday in the Halo thread. I never once had to explain away for pages on end why I said what I did. And never once did the Sony gamers jump on me for my statement.

Consoles are where the more inovative and creative games are made except maybe the indie space on PC, but then again you don't need a 3090 RTX for that now don't you?
You mean the PS5. I agree that Sony has some excellent 1st party companies that make great games that I, personally, like. But the conversation is about rendering and performance. In that sense, everything hardware vendor is under the microscope - and that's OK.

EDIT: Bottom line is: if you own a 3090RTX you probably aren't giving it much use as anyone here is giving their PS5/XSX. And that's the real issue with PC gaming, all talk, no real advantage beside pixel pushing.
PC does more than pixel pushing. The draw on the PC is that it's an agnostic hardware and it's where all the innovation and R&D for advanced rendering will come from. We can't hate on that if people are drawn to that. Also, 1st party PS exclusives take up the number of fingers I have in both my hands compared to all the other games that are shared across all platforms - and the PC does give the best experience.. so not sure why you think there is no use for the PC.
 
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assurdum

Banned
3080 aint cutting it either brah

"Last week the system requirements for the game the medium got released, and many wonder about the game targeting 30 FPS. As it now turns out, the game cannot even reach 60 FPS in 1920x1080 with a GeForce RTX 3080, and that's with Raytracing disabled."

Thats All Love GIF by Five Guys A Week
 
Yeap. I said this like extremely early on when the games started to pour in. They simply don't have the GPU bandwidth to push higher levels (especially with RT) and most optimizations will be removing this bandwidth barrier with lowering the render framebuffers down and upscaling them to display.


Any sensible person would have known that a 2070/5700XT level gpu doesnt have any bussiness with 4k. But we spent the entire year before the console launch repeating ad nauseam how ps5 and xbox are such amazing beasts. Over and over and over again. The gpu in these consoles are between a 1080 and 1080TI. Card that came out in may 2016. Instead of appreciating that the new consoles are balanced for once and not lacking in any area compared to the past, people kept getting drunk with cold water and pretending these are some high end beasts. I mean, it was literally every single day for an entire year. Now reality hits, but of course its hard to accept. I mean, you spent a year saying what a beast ps5 is. And when it comes out it runs Control from 2019 at 1440p and every single option turned of or set to low. New games come out and they render internally at 1080p. A lot of people wont accept reality. They now started saying how nobody notices and how they all thought its 4k native. Now, after they found out the games outputs 1080p, now the resolution magically doesnt matter.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
So going by the DF video, Returnal really starts as a 1080p game and does some upscaling stuff to get to higher res. Also, it seems during big fights the frame rate drops to the 50s.
 

assurdum

Banned
Any sensible person would have known that a 2070/5700XT level gpu doesnt have any bussiness with 4k. But we spent the entire year before the console launch repeating ad nauseam how ps5 and xbox are such amazing beasts. Over and over and over again. The gpu in these consoles are between a 1080 and 1080TI. Card that came out in may 2016. Instead of appreciating that the new consoles are balanced for once and not lacking in any area compared to the past, people kept getting drunk with cold water and pretending these are some high end beasts. I mean, it was literally every single day for an entire year. Now reality hits, but of course its hard to accept. I mean, you spent a year saying what a beast ps5 is. And when it comes out it runs Control from 2019 at 1440p and every single option turned of or set to low. New games come out and they render internally at 1080p. A lot of people wont accept reality. They now started saying how nobody notices and how they all thought its 4k native. Now, after they found out the games outputs 1080p, now the resolution magically doesnt matter.
Sad Kristen Bell GIF
 

Zathalus

Member
Every console warrior brushed me off when I told everyone that this generation had weak hardware for 6-7yr sprint. These consoles were already tapped out a long time ago. And by "tapped out", I mean bandwidth bottlenecks were readily apparent very very early on. It doesn't mean there won't be great looking games like R&C. But it does mean people need to get their expectations in check. You'll find more art driven talent per studio than you will a showcase of some graphical tour de force.
The PS5 is actually better off compared to the best PC has to offer, compared to how the PS4 fared. Even better if you only stack it up against current mid-rage PC specs. The 2013-2014 mid-range GPU was around 70% faster then the PS4 GPU, while the current mid-range is only around 15% faster. Going to the top end, a 780ti ($699) was 230% faster then the PS4 GPU, while the 3090 ($1499-$3000) is only 60%-70% faster then the PS5 GPU.

CPU and storage they are way better off as well.

Last generation turned out just fine, I am sure this one will as well.
 

Loxus

Member
You mean the PS5. I agree that Sony has some excellent 1st party companies that make great games that I, personally, like. But the conversation is about rendering and performance. In that sense, everything hardware vendor is under the microscope - and that's OK.
I don't know how you're vetted tbh.
But do you and the Xbox family realize PS5 has a higher average performance in games than XBSX right?

So with that said,
What do you think the performance of the XBSX when running this game, 720p?
 
I don't disagree actually. I do not consider native all that important. I am just surprised that one of the first exclusives, heavily marketed as 4K 60fps (which I found impressive) is actually upscaling from 1080p.
Of course the end result is still mostly good, so in practice it is not a huge issue. But I do not find this game to look particularly great - Infamous SS from 2014 doesn't really look that much worse to me, if at all.
This game is made by a small studio compared to giants that do incredible feats in the infustry like insomniac, naughty dog or santa monica. Its their first 3rd person game and their first game on ps5 plus its 60fps and people dont realise the density of particles on screen such a game is very computationaly demanding. Theres 3d gpu particles everywhere, theres sprites everywhere aswell, theres interactive gpu particles theres fluid simulation on the fog its not your simple voxels or uninteractive raymarched volumes its interactive fog and fluid simulations all at 60fps and blistering traversal speeds. At this point the quality of production is whats important.

Arguing about native vs reconstructed if you cant tell the difference until you zoom 300x is pointless at this point and 90 percent of.games will use reconstruction theres no developer thats stupid enough to waste resources on making a spectacular game just because some weird people just want to know if its native. Even if it was playstation 10 with 1000 teraflops theyll still find ways to push the hardware interms of production quality tp sacrifice resolutions for reconstruction to achieve 60fps. Theres is no magic processing power thats immune to graphics. Even rtx super gpus wont be able to run nextgen games at 4k 30 ultra in a year or 2 from now you just wait.
 

SoraNoKuni

Member
Before that DF analysis If you told me returnal is at 1080p internally after what I watched today playing the game I would call you a madman, instead of fanboyism and fanatism people of any platform should be celebrating, If devs can reduce the internal resolution and provide such visuald and performance this early in this gen imagine what ND/Bethesda will be able to pull off later on.

The game is a visual eyecandy, and plays really effin smooth, it's really a next gen experience in every way possible.
 
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The 5700XT is not the PS5 equivalent. Also, what exactly is that graph measuring?


a 5700XT is the ps5 equivalent from the amd side, while a 2070/S is the nvidia equivalent. That graph measures the average 4k performance from 15 games or so.


No it's not

I understand these hard facts may not be to your satisfaction, but they are true, nonetheless
 
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You are wrong.
Lying is trolling and trolling is a bannable offense.




I mean, you can look for yourself. Do you think i fabricated the image ? You can click on the graphic card model you desire to set it as the benchmark and the rest of the cards are shown relative to what you chose.
 

Zathalus

Member
a 5700XT is the ps5 equivalent from the amd side, while a 2070/S is the nvidia equivalent. That graph measures the average 4k performance from 15 games or so.
What makes you think it is the equivalent? AC Valhalla runs at a near perfect 60FPS on the PS5 with resolution measuring between 1440p-4k, while the 5700XT in the very same game at similar settings hovers in the low 50s at a locked 1440p.
 

rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Consoles are where the more inovative and creative games are made except maybe the indie space on PC, but then again you don't need a 3090 RTX for that now don't you?

EDIT: Bottom line is: if you own a 3090RTX you probably aren't giving it much use as anyone here is giving their PS5/XSX. And that's the real issue with PC gaming, all talk, no real advantage beside pixel pushing.
Are you really saying that consoles provides some magic to games be more creative/innovative while PC forbid that? Freaking shooters with a crosshair on screen like Returnal itself were created on freaking pc!!!

And not any other advantages other than pushing pixels? What about pushing more frames? Pushing graphic mods to push even move the RTX3090 to its knees? Push the best controller types for every genre? Pushing emulation that incompetent consoles are not?
 
Why are FUDing so hard against it?
It's Because of the fraud that playstation 5 fans have become. And the fact that most of you are In denial about your preferred system. So you make up Features And Technical facts that don't exist. When you really should be telling Sony to stop giving us sloppy seconds. But you prefer not to and at the same time say how bad Your competitors hardware is, that's why I'm on your case......
Now you will write back and say I never said that it was?
 
Yeah. Ps5 is not better in every area vs. 1080ti (flops, memory bandwidth esp.) but overall it's better than 1080ti, but not by much. Just a more modern architecture with a faster geometry pipeline (clockspeed) and can do RT much more easily. Not to mention Pascal was worse with async compute than the old GCN architecture let alone RDNA.

Bandwidth would be the main deficiency when compared to 1080ti ; 448gb/s, shared with cpu vs. 484gb/s.

S Soulblighter31 Ps5 is not rdna1 5700xt, get out of here with that fud.
 
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