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PS5 will have BT 5.1 and Wi-Fi 6 802.11 AX standard
- Thread starter Apollo Helios
- Start date
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Probably high end headphones using Sony's LDAC for premium sound, best bluetooth tech:
Might consider Sony's WH-1000XM4.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
n0razi
Member
Not all wifi is the same
802.11g adds about 50ms of latency
802.11n adds about 10ms of latency
802.11ac adds about 5ms of latency
Wifi6 should close the gap with wired ethernet which is around 0.1-0.5ms
ethernet is still king (simple physics) but Wifi6 will dramatically reduce latency vs whatever wifi you are using.
How Your WiFi Band Impacts Low Latency Connections - Parsec | Blog
By PJ Palomaki Our home network is one of those things we often take for granted. We can see our broadband as just another utility in the household, which feeds our myriad of devices with data from all over the globe. It enables us to watch TV series on our Smart TV’s and browse social […]
blog.parsecgaming.com
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FlyyGOD
Member
My router doesn't need to take advantage of ps5 wifi 6 because my router already allows me to prioritize traffic from multiple devices.
ethomaz
Banned
Not the same thing lol
With WiFi 6 you don't need to priorize anything... it allow you to use all devices at the same time without any issue with near wired response time.
It is really makes all the difference even for home networks.
For me is great because I have over 8 devices connected to my router... only PS4 is wired (I hope to remove the cable on PS5).
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alstrike
Member
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Yeah that's the really underwhelming new of it.
i mean wifi6 is great, but your ISP needs to provide wifi6 service (and may increase monthly costs). I talked to xfinitiy, at &t, and they stated the maximum speeds they can provide is
1 gigabits per second
a lot of gamers dont care for wifi6 because they will be using wired cable connection to get the best connection with no lag
Not if you live in a civilised country where internet is not limited, like...any civilised country that is not the US
FlyyGOD
Member
I'm hardwired to my console and pc so its not something that affects me.Not the same thing lol
With WiFi 6 you don't need to priorize anything... it allow you to use all devices at the same time without any issue with near wired response time.
It is really makes all the difference even for home networks.
For me is great because I have over 8 devices connected to my router... only PS4 is wired (I hope to remove the cable on PS5).
thelastword
Banned
Sony always had the habit of giving us the best cutting edge tech, it's why they are a successful hardware company. PS2 had ports even the consoles coming a year later did not have, PS3 had ports the 360 didn't have and 360 could never match PS3 in media related features. The PS4 got it's 8GB of GDDR5 on the brink of launch. introduced a controller with a speaker and audio port.....
Now, Wifi 6, USB C, Bluetooth 5.1 that erases all the connectivity and interference issues that current bluetooth has. Connectivity and speed across devices to the PS5 will be insane. Pretty much every aspect of the PS5 seems to be founded on cutting edge tech and speed.....Wifi 6, USB C, Bluetooth 5.1, SSD, Geometry Engine, IO Block, Tempest Engine.....I can't wait to see the OS, because everything needs to be snappy with the social happy OS they are developing....People easily joining your game to take over a hard section, people playing your games as you allow them to connect to your console. People actively discussing and writing up in forums and discussion panels as you play, where all the information in how you tackle a specific boss is right there, much better integration for streaming and interacting with viewers. Better connectivity for PSVR 2.0, higher bandwidth, perhap VR will be able to be streamed to your phone like the VR headset that comes with certain Motorola phones.......etc etc...
Now, Wifi 6, USB C, Bluetooth 5.1 that erases all the connectivity and interference issues that current bluetooth has. Connectivity and speed across devices to the PS5 will be insane. Pretty much every aspect of the PS5 seems to be founded on cutting edge tech and speed.....Wifi 6, USB C, Bluetooth 5.1, SSD, Geometry Engine, IO Block, Tempest Engine.....I can't wait to see the OS, because everything needs to be snappy with the social happy OS they are developing....People easily joining your game to take over a hard section, people playing your games as you allow them to connect to your console. People actively discussing and writing up in forums and discussion panels as you play, where all the information in how you tackle a specific boss is right there, much better integration for streaming and interacting with viewers. Better connectivity for PSVR 2.0, higher bandwidth, perhap VR will be able to be streamed to your phone like the VR headset that comes with certain Motorola phones.......etc etc...
Bleeding Edge, that's how I like it..
A.Romero
Member
It's important to have the latest tech possible considering the cost, heat and size restraints considering some people will have the console for 5+ years. Not a deal breaker if it doesn't have it but nice to have.
Anyone thinking this is a bad or unnecessary thing doesn't understand how technology works.
Anyone thinking this is a bad or unnecessary thing doesn't understand how technology works.
EliTheIceMan
Member
Yes!!!!!!! I do
CamHostage
Member
We'll see, that would be nice. Some have expressed concerns that it might not do wireless VR since it's not a WiFi 6e device (thus does not use the 6GHz signal range, which would help,) but 802.11ax is supposed to be able to cut it for wifi VR. It sounds like it's more the chips that the manufacturers are making where they dedicated certain efforts into WiFi VR implementation, more than just straight WiFi 6e being the answer itself, that's making WiFi VR possible, and Sony could also customize its wireless hardware for features not in the standard WiFi protocol. But we'll see if that happens. I feel like they would have said something by now if they intended on wireless VR, but then everything about this console gen hype cycle is a waiting game.
Wi-Fi 6: Next-Gen Connectivity
The smartphone revolution has triggered an insatiable appetite for mobile access to information. The GSM Association estimates there are more than 8.98 billion mobile connections worldwide, surpassing today’s world population of 7.69 billion according to U.N. figures.
www.cta.tech
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yurinka
Member
No, simple physics say wifi6 has about the same latency than gigabit ethernet (and most people don't have gigabit routers and cables at home), it's like 20% faster than ethernet and has a longer range.
The article you linked doesn't cover wifi6. The article is from 2018 and the first wifi6 devices were Samsung Fold and S10, released in March 2019. They mention that for the comparision graph they did use a wifi5 router.
This one does and says "For example, when you look at the theoretical top speed, Wi-Fi 6 reaches 9.6 Gbps (compared to Wi-Fi 5 which clocks in at 6.9 Gbps). In real world testing, Wi-Fi 6’s single stream speed has been raised to 1.2 Gbps - 20% faster than connecting via Gigabit Ethernet.":
https://www.techradar.com/news/wi-fi-6-vs-ethernet-who-is-taking-the-connectivity-crown
Edit: here's another article where they tested wifi 6 running at 1.5Gbps, so it's 50% improvement instead of 20%
How fast is Wi-Fi 6? Here are our latest speed test results
It's still too early for most to buy in, but the numbers we're seeing from these next-gen routers are very promising.
www.cnet.com
This other article mentions when talking about wifi 6 vs wifi 5 "four times as much data deliverable simultaneously to multiple clients and latency cut by 75 percent":
Next-generation 802.11ax wi-fi: Dense, fast, delayed
The 802.11ax standard addresses wi-fi challenges such as client density and latency, but it's still early days, with final approval not expected until late 2019.
www.zdnet.com
For the test of your article they're using the Nighthawk X6 router (wifi 5, 802.11ac). If we take the ~5ns and cut it a 75%, then wifi 6 latency should be ~1.25ns, without considering other benefits like sending up to 4x data at the same time compared to wifi 5 and without considering wifi 6 is up to ~50% faster than gigabit lan, or considering that wifi 6 better than wifi 5 shielding against closer wifis from neighbors to reduce interferences. So the new king is wifi 6 and not ethernet (simple physics).
Extra video talking about wifi6 benefits:
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killatopak
Member
This is big.
Like studies show that there are more wifi users than wired even in games that need low latency like fighting games.
Like studies show that there are more wifi users than wired even in games that need low latency like fighting games.
thelastword
Banned
You never know, if WIFI 6E is planned for later this year when WIFI 6 came out in 2019, Sony may opt for a chipset with 6E capability or one that could be firmware patched later on, if it benefits their VR solution.......Still 6E adoption other than VR will take some time to kick in as connected devices including, routers, phones etc.....would need the chipset and capabilities to make it viable across multiple devices.......The other issue is cost, which is always a consideration for consoles, but we shall see. Wifi 6 is already offering a one leg up on the competition and of course 6E has not officially launched yet, so it's all up in the air for now....The PS5 PRO though, would be a guaranteed recipient however.....We'll see, that would be nice. Some have expressed concerns that it might not do wireless VR since it's not a WiFi 6e device (thus does not use the 6GHz signal range, which would help,) but 802.11ax is supposed to be able to cut it for wifi VR. It's more the chips that the manufacturers are making more than just straight WiFi 6e that's making WiFi VR possible, and Sony could also customize its wireless hardware for features not in the standard WiFi protocol. But we'll see if that happens. I feel like they would have said something by now if they intended on wireless VR, but then everything about this console gen hype cycle is a waiting game.
Wi-Fi 6: Next-Gen Connectivity
The smartphone revolution has triggered an insatiable appetite for mobile access to information. The GSM Association estimates there are more than 8.98 billion mobile connections worldwide, surpassing today’s world population of 7.69 billion according to U.N. figures.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
No offense to anyone, but I wish they would kill off wifi for consoles and pc's, strictly for gaming. Even with the lowest latency of wifi 6, you'll still have added latency vs Ethernet. Sorry if I offend anyone
GreyHand23
Member
Ignorance is bliss.
schaft0620
Member
Let's play a little game I like to call trace the bottleneck.
SSD: 10GB/s
WAN Interface: 6Gb/s
Router: 1Gb/s
Internet speed: .5Gb/s
PSN: 10Mb/s?
SSD: 10GB/s
WAN Interface: 6Gb/s
Router: 1Gb/s
Internet speed: .5Gb/s
PSN: 10Mb/s?
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
alstrike
Member
I never had a problem with PSN speeds (ok maybe upload). I can download games in a bit and we're talking TLOU2 in 20 minutes...
yurinka
Member
They mentioned to be working on their PSN and PS+ clouds with MS, in addition to PS Now tech improvements. That would improve downloads, streaming and server based multiplayer. PSN speed doesn't affect the online multiplayer in P2P games like fighting games.
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Aceofspades
Banned
That's a given regardless of Wifi type tbh.
yurinka
Member
Wifi 6 has about the same latency (if not better) than wired but provides up to
And this is considering you're gigabit lan (so using a cat. 6 cables or better, 1000Base-T router and PC LAN card or better), if you're using the common cat. 5 cable or 10/100 router or LAN card the improvement moving to wifi6 will be higher.
Edit: here's another article where they tested wifi 6 running at 1.5Gbps, so it's 50% improvement instead of 20%
How fast is Wi-Fi 6? Here are our latest speed test results
It's still too early for most to buy in, but the numbers we're seeing from these next-gen routers are very promising.
www.cnet.com
No, the cost of a wifi chip is tiny, very likely under $5. The GFX/CPU/RAM/SSD cost is huge compared to that and they already have cutting edge stuff there. To have great wifi on all PS5s in the market means a huge improvement on the online multiplayer experience becaues 3/4 of the userbase play using wifi. Same goes for streaming. Bluetooth 5.1 is also a big step for streaming and for reducing input lag in local games.
The extra cost of jumping from 802.11ac to 802.11ax and from Bluetooth 4.0 to 5.1 probably costed Sony like maybe less than 2 or 5 bucks per console. You can't do anything with that to improve GPU/CPU/RAM/SSD.
In the current generation most players play on a base PS4 using wifi, and it's an old 2.4GHz wifi. Yes, PS4 Pro improved that but when they go to play online most people has a base PS4 with a shitty wifi. It's important to know that most people playing this next gen will have a console with wifi 6. Yes, most people won't have a router right now, but at least the console will be future proof. They (or their ISP) may update their router later in the road.
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alstrike
Member
Dude a Wifi 6 chip costs peanuts
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
What are you talking about? Let's say wifi 6 has better speeds than Ethernet (it doesn't, but for the sake of discussion, let's say it does). Faster speeds doesn't negate higher latency of wifi 6 vs Ethernet. There's no circumstance where wireless will have higher bandwidth or lower latency, over a hard wired connection. Look at Bluetooth or other wireless technologies for instance.
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Jigga117
Member
Lmfao this is not the same thing wow
yurinka
Member
Regarding speed, consoles and most PCs use 1000BASE-T (copper wires with RJ45 LAN connectors) so won't go over 1Gbps when wired, this is why I -and the other ones I quoted- did use that for the comparision. It's standarized to use up to 100 meters long cables. There are faster 1000BASE specifications but almost nobody uses them because their cable specifications allow up to 15, 25 or 40 meters long cable distances. Other ones are for Electrical Backplane or fiber optics cables.
What are you talking about? Let's say wifi 6 has better speeds than Ethernet (it doesn't, but for the sake of discussion, let's say it does). Faster speeds doesn't negate higher latency of wifi 6 vs Ethernet. There's no circumstance where wireless will have higher bandwidth or lower latency, over a hard wired connection. Look at Bluetooth or other wireless technologies for instance.
Here you have real world tests showing 1.5Gbps wifi 6 results with some of the first devices:
How fast is Wi-Fi 6? Here are our latest speed test results
It's still too early for most to buy in, but the numbers we're seeing from these next-gen routers are very promising.
www.cnet.com
So yes, wifi 6 is faster. In these tests, up to 50% than with cable. It's more than the 20% I quoted from another article in my previous post.
Regarding latency, we know wifi 5 has ~5ns according one of the articles posted above and the other mentions wifi 6 reduces the wifi 5 latency a 75%, so ~1.25ns. That's aprox the same than the wired lan cable used in the comparision saying that the wifi 5 router gave ~5ns. Your article just posted an assumption, an opinion, instead of factual data to say wired has better latency. Which I think it may be possible, but we're talking about less than 1ns of difference, which is almost nothing.
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DonJuanSchlong
Banned
You are going off from best case scenario though. As in no other interferences and what not. You will never have lower latency transmitted over the air, vs direct connection. This will never, ever happen. You cannot defy the laws of physics. Also you regarded 1000 base lan. If you are comparing the two, why you use 2.5gbps wired as an example? There are even 10gbps motherboards already out, which are almost 10x faster than wifi 6's, 1.5gbps THEORETICAL max throughput.Regarding speed, consoles and most PCs use 1000BASE-T LAN so won't go over 1Gbps when wired, this is why I -and the other ones I quoted- did use that for the comparision. Here you have real world tests showing 1.5Gbps wifi 6 results with some of the first devices:
How fast is Wi-Fi 6? Here are our latest speed test results
It's still too early for most to buy in, but the numbers we're seeing from these next-gen routers are very promising.
So yes, wifi 6 is faster. In these tests, up to 50% than with cable. It's more than the 20% I quoted from another article in my previous post.
Regarding latency, we know wifi 5 has ~5ns according one of the articles posted above and the other mentions wifi 6 reduces the wifi 5 latency a 75%, so ~1.25ns. That's aprox the same than the wired lan cable used in the comparision saying that the wifi 5 router gave ~5ns. Your article just posted an assumption, an opinion, instead of factual data to say wired has better latency. Which I think it may be possible, but we're talking about less than 1ns of difference, which is almost nothing.
hououinkyouma00
Member
Yes. I live with a friend and the router is in his room. I’m not gonna ask him to run a series of Ethernet cables across him room, across the hallway, and to all of my devices.
I’ve never had major issues with WiFi, but I’m also not playing at a competitive level. Let’s be honest basically nobody is. Competitive players are a very small percentage of the population.
yurinka
Member
No, that 1.5gbps isn't theorical. In that article I linked they show real worlds cases: "To date, the fastest Wi-Fi 6 speeds we've seen came from the TP-Link Archer AX6000, which measured in with an average wireless download speed of 1,523 Mbps at a distance of 5 feet." They also mention "With the Netgear Nighthawk AX12, speeds clocked in at 1,320 Mbps". In other article I linked before that, they mentioned 1.2Gbps, "a 20% improvement over wired".
Regarding wifi 6 theorical speed there are routers claiming 11, 10 or 5Gbps:
Wi-Fi 6 - Wikipedia
But if with theorical you meant I was assuming that you can get 1Gbps with the wired connection yes, I went with theorical assuming the cable wasn't too long, it was a properly shielded cable with no major interferences, no other devices connected to the router, etc.
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DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Do you not see where your argument starts to fail?No, that 1.5gbps isn't theorical. In that article they show a real world case: "To date, the fastest Wi-Fi 6 speeds we've seen came from the TP-Link Archer AX6000, which measured in with an average wireless download speed of 1,523 Mbps at a distance of 5 feet." They also mention "With the Netgear Nighthawk AX12, speeds clocked in at 1,320 Mbps"
Regarding wifi 6 theorical speed there are routers claiming 11, 10 or 5Gbps:
Wi-Fi 6 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Why not go wired for ensured, full throughout on speed at that point? What happens when you move further than your wingspan from the router and console? Will speeds magically increase then? Will the latency somehow become lower at increased distances, compared to Ethernet? I'm not knocking wifi6, as it's a continuous improvement over wifi5 and previous iterations. But to think wifi will be superior to a hard wired connection is bonkers.
CamHostage
Member
Right, it's not just the wireless internet speed/latency (which is huge for the vast majority of gamers,) but it also opens up opportunities that exist because the hardware is more capable. Remote Play I believe did not exist at launch with PSP/PS3 (I'm not sure when they introduced it but it certainly wasn't something I had conceived of when I bought my first PSP,) but because the hardware was there, they could deploy the application to let you do that. We've been talking about the possibility of wireless VR thanks to WiFI 6, that's not something we even dreamed of with PS4 (though technically it could maybe be done with a dongle.) BT5 has its own features that PlayStation could make use of. There's IoT features that might allow all kinds of new products to connect to your PS5 with a push of a button. (Think toys like Rock Band controllers and Skylanders figures, but also think gaming devices like VR lighthouses and gaming chair feedback or LED accent lighting or who knows what might come down the pike.) Lots of new ideas can come from these powerful tech standards being included in the console. Even if you insist on a CAT5 connection and a wired headset, there's bound to be something about the wireless features of PS5 that will benefit you.
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yurinka
Member
Yes, both in wifi and wired the distance affects speed, latency due to interferences, packet loss and so on. This is the reason of why the cable spefication for wired lans specify a maximum length.
The wired 1000BASE‑T standard specification allows max. 100 meter (330 feet) long cables, but cables don't go in straight line, so the effective distance for a house between router and console or PC is smaller. And well, speed also decreases with cable length due to interferences, packet loss, damaged cable and so on.
The full quote of the part you highlighted in the article was: "Average wireless download speed of 1,523 Mbps at a distance of 5 feet. Range was strong with that router, too -- at a distance of 75 feet, the connection still averaged out to a blazing fast 868 Mbps."
My console is ~12 feet away from the router with nothing between them. I assume most people will get way above 1Gbps with wifi 6. We also have to think these are only the first routers and devices supporting wifi 6, they will improve over time as did with other technologies.
Sure, make sure Remote Play will be greatly benefited thanks to wifi 6.
Not sure if wifi 6 will be enough for PSVR2, but maybe. Maybe they can do something with that Kraken decompressor to reduce the data they need to send, maybe to combine it with bluetooth or something like that, or maybe they include with the headset a wifi6E dongle for the console. I have no idea.
As someone mentioned before, who knows if maybe even the console is certified as wifi 6 but they also included the other features to make it wifi6E without mentioning it because the standard may not be ready or something like that. We'll have to wait and see.
Regarding possible IOT accesories, remember Sony patented a robot toy that reacts to your performance when gaming, cheering you up and stuff like that.
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ABnormal
Member
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
So you are implying that someone who upgrades their router because of lack of speed and latency, would get wifi6 router? But the same person on a wired connection, would be only using 1gbps chip? Why do you keep comparing apples to oranges? With all things equal, can you state the same argument, with a standard 2.5gbps, 5gbps, or 10gbps wired connection? Please don't elude that this time around.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Competitive doesn't equate to professional level of play. You can be a regular gamer, that plays competitively. Ever play street fighter or any other fighting game against someone on wifi? People who do that, are cancerous to even the casual crowd.
ethomaz
Banned
That is not true.
WiFi 6 has the same latency than Ethernet.
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yurinka
Member
At least here in Spain from time to time the ISP calls you to offer you to jump to their company, or if you are already their client offer a new router or discount to continue some time more with them. When I installed fiber at home they gave me a 802.11n router, and some time later they offered me to replace it with a 802.11ac one for free, not sure if it was when they upgraded my fiber connection from 300Mb to 600Mb.
I assume that maybe in a year or two they or another ISP will offer me a 802.11ax router for free, and over time all the routers they will offer to people will be wifi 6, as they are doing with wifi 5 now. People -at least here- won't have to make any effort to upgrade the router, with time they will end getting a better one.
I mentioned above that consoles and PCs use 1gbps wired 1000BASE‑T standard (max 1Gbps) and the reason of why they do it: the maximum cable length for the faster than 1Gbps wired standards is 15, 25 or 40 meters long (50 to 131 feet). The other faster wired standards are for Electrical Backplanes or fiber cables. This stuff isn't for your console, consoles use 1000BASE‑T. Which means that when wired in console you have a theorical max of 1Gbps and a maximum cable length of 100 meters, period.
Gigabit Ethernet - Wikipedia
The factual data I posted in this thread says wifi 6 is superior to the wired console connection: basically the same latency (around 1 ms) and 20 to 50% faster speed.
Go and read the specs and real world tests I linked and quoted. This doesn't defy the laws of physics at all. Read this:
"Each new version of the standard has primarily promoted itself on faster speeds, and 802.11ax does promise up to 30 percent faster top speeds over its forebear 802.11ac. But that's not its major selling point. Instead, 802.11ax uses a suite of new and extended technologies to solve some of wi-fi's more enduring problems, including client density and latency. With four times as much data deliverable simultaneously to multiple clients and latency cut by 75 percent, the user experience of 802.11ax should be much improved"
Next-generation 802.11ax wi-fi: Dense, fast, delayed
The 802.11ax standard addresses wi-fi challenges such as client density and latency, but it's still early days, with final approval not expected until late 2019.
www.zdnet.com
802.11ac latency is ~5ns, cutting a 75% of this means 802.11ax latency is ~1.25ns, basically the same than a wired 1000BASE-T cable (it will depend on the cable size, but it's the example shown in a comparision that appeared in this thread).
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Justin9mm
Member
Not sure why people are surprised if no USB C on Xbox, they always go with proprietary. Xbox have a solid track record of corporate greed. A lot more than Sony.
ABnormal
Member
It could be that all this push for the highest efficiency on wi-fi may be related primarily to PSVR2 project. There may be a wi-fi version of it, needing very fast and wide data trafic for video and audio.
