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Apple to terminate all developer accounts and cut off Epic off from IOS and Mac development tools

Epic might be wrong here but I like how they want industry to shape up.

So going with Epic.
30% cut is how walled gardens exist. Epic was greedy in that it wasn't good enough that they have a store on PC, they want to put their store inside someone else's store. The 30% cut is how console gaming pay for itself, the reason why it makes sense that PS4 cost $399 at launch and not FAR more. Your utopia basically kills console gaming.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
No, and why should there be? Want an Apple phone? It comes with iOS and a walled garden. Don't want that? Go Samsung / Huawei / HTC / Sony / etc. etc. etc.
There's also a much older conflict at play here, one that goes back to Atari and Nintendo and 80s PC market.

Integrated software / hardware companies versus standalone hardware and software companies.

PC gamers and those who play mostly 3rd party titles tend to have an "open platform" mentality. They espouse all the advantages and we've seen several of those arguments in this thread. It is to the advantage of PC companies and 3rd parties to encourage this mindset. Uniformity across platforms makes it cheaper to produce games, cheaper to produce uniform hardware, and ultimately leads to third party software / hardware manufacturers consolidating power. They usually default to some form of "it's not fair that the big companies have all this power", pulling the same David vs Goliath plea like EPIC is doing now. If third parties gain power, they then leverage their influence to squeeze out the integrated hardware/software brands because they offer a value proposition that cannot be matched. We already see that happening with several publishers who've opened up their own storefronts (Ubi, EA, EPIC) to eat a piece of that pie, and the end result is a splintering market.

Arcade and console gamers tended to have a brand-loyalty and platform-loyalty mindset. Integrated hardware/software companies (like Nintendo, old Atari, and old SEGA) brought computer hardware from the universities and labs into the bars and the bowling alleys. They took over the boardwalks and arcades, completely absorbing the latter term. Consoles were an extension of that philosophy, an integrated hardware/software product that delivered a branded experience from a name that you trusted, with a suite of features that you wanted. IBM and Commodore operated in an integrated hardware/software model until Microsoft took over the OS field, acting very much like a 3rd party gaming company imposing demands upon the console manufacturers. Unlike with third-party PC manufacturers and third-party publishers, you barely hear a peep about "those poor platform holders" which should be a hint that his is largely a PR / marketing argument. When EA favored SEGA Genesis, that was just competition. When Sony "betrayed" Nintendo with the PS1 and eating up more third parties, that was just competition. When Origin and U-play oopened, that was just competition. They always default back to the "competition" angle without ever applying it to third parties.

This conflict won't go away, but it's interesting to watch it unfold over the decades.
 

Rahul Srinivas

Neo Member
not really. it has to do with having a secure platform. having that payment bypass adds a loophole that a lot of devs will fully exploit to gain information and increase predatory microtransaction hell. It isn't all just about getting a "CUT"
But as someone who has worked on alot of ios apps I can say reguardless of that, IOS is still hell on earth for developers. the ever changing rules is a huge pain in the ass.
And the implications are huge! Pubg Mobile could lose iOS support and be removed from App Store apparently! Not only that but 1000s other games if not removed can never be updated unless they port to unity or something.
 

Dodkrake

Banned
Apple products consistently have the best build quality in their product classes, and both perform better and last longer than competitors. Commodore Amigas pushed home gaming into the most graphically amazing era of the time (Shadow Of The Beast single handedly sold computers), had the best arcade ports and were the pinnacle of gaming, and the Atari ST changed industries - like music production with C-Lab that eventually became Cubase, so .. neither of these machines ‘went nowhere’?
It’s 2:28am and maybe I should have just responded with a Craig gif.

giphy.gif

What competitors? I work with several apple products daily, none has lasted longer than my other products from other brands, within the same price range. From faulty keyboards, to overcooked Motherboards, to CPU's that throttle themselves within seconds of any work task on pro machines. They are cool for development, and interesting for video editing, but they are not quality like they were up until 2011 / 12 (this was the real decline). They have great marketing and cult like following, and their products are "easier" to use than competing ones. But they are not the best in their respective price ranges bar the iPad (which is by far the best tablet you can get, and is not overpriced)
 

Mahadev

Member
Apple products consistently have the best build quality in their product classes, and both perform better and last longer than competitors. Commodore Amigas pushed home gaming into the most graphically amazing era of the time (Shadow Of The Beast single handedly sold computers), had the best arcade ports and were the pinnacle of gaming, and the Atari ST changed industries - like music production with C-Lab that eventually became Cubase, so .. neither of these machines ‘went nowhere’?
It’s 2:28am and maybe I should have just responded with a Craig gif.


What year is this? Apple products are riddled with bad design choices and defects the last 4+ years. Not to mention they never had the "best quality".

Case(s) in point.


No, and why should there be? Want an Apple phone? It comes with iOS and a walled garden. Don't want that? Go Samsung / Huawei / HTC / Sony / etc. etc. etc.


Because Apple is using its significant share in the industry to blackmail developers into taking 30% of their revenue? Because this "walled garden" bullshit buzzword Apple taught you to repeat is another word for Apple abusing its position with a closed off ecosystem they use to bully developers?
 
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Because Apple is using its significant share in the industry to blackmail developers into taking 30% of their revenue?

Steam / Google / Nintendo / Sony / Microsoft.

Pick one and tell me their revenue percentage.

Because this "walled garden" bullshit buzzword Apple taught you to repeat is another word for Apple abusing its position with a closed off ecosystem they use to bully developers?

That consumers choose to be a part of.

Keep trying.
 
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rob305

Member
Just 400M downloads, but yes nobody.
Yes and out of those 400M downloads, how many are in the US? Telegram is wildly popular in parts of Asia and the Middle East, in the US not so much. Oh and i'm also part of those 400M downloads cause I downloaded it ages ago to test it
 

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
Fuck Apple.
Fuck iOS
Fuck MACS
Fuck iPhone
Fuck Safari
Fuck iPads
And Fuck their shitty soy ass fanboys who are just delsuonal stupid sheep that buys overpriced products that are not worth their money.
Goodluck with buying a tablet then 🤣
 

levyjl1988

Banned
I'm curious about the outcome. Is Apple going to dissolve Epic Games? Fortnite not available on both Android and Apple devices.
Hell, even Microsoft is having trouble putting their xCloud services on iOS because of the stringent rules.
 
Think of all the companies who have already created a work-around for the "Apple, Google and whoever else tax". For example:

Netflix - You can watch content via the app, but cannot start or end your subscription in the app
Audible(Amazon) - You cannot purchase books through the app, but you can listen

Then you look at where these rules aren't applied the same over certain companies; for example:
Amazon - You can purchase thing through the Amazon app, but they don't pay a 30% of the cost to Apple or Google?

I dislike both Apple and TenCent(Epic) but if they are going to punish companies for breaking the rules, do it to all of them
 

Sakura

Member
Think of all the companies who have already created a work-around for the "Apple, Google and whoever else tax". For example:

Netflix - You can watch content via the app, but cannot start or end your subscription in the app
Audible(Amazon) - You cannot purchase books through the app, but you can listen

Then you look at where these rules aren't applied the same over certain companies; for example:
Amazon - You can purchase thing through the Amazon app, but they don't pay a 30% of the cost to Apple or Google?

I dislike both Apple and TenCent(Epic) but if they are going to punish companies for breaking the rules, do it to all of them
What those companies are doing isn't actually breaking the rules. Apple requires 30% from digital in-app purchases, or whatever the terminology is. Amazon app is selling physical goods, so it's OK. Audible as you mentioned, for example, doesn't allow you to buy anything via the app because if it did, it would break the rules.
What Epic was trying to do, is allow you to make in-app digital purchases without giving a cut to Apple, breaking the terms. None of those companies you mentioned were doing that. Epic probably could've made a work around if they wanted to. For example, no in-app purchases at all. Instead log onto epic.com or whatever and buy V-Bucks to your account there (no idea how fortnite works). In reality it seems that they just wanted a fight with Apple.
 

decisions

Member
Fuck Apple.
Fuck iOS
Fuck MACS
Fuck iPhone
Fuck Safari
Fuck iPads
And Fuck their shitty soy ass fanboys who are just delsuonal stupid sheep that buys overpriced products that are not worth their money.

You seem upset. Maybe you should use some Apple devices. They are simple to use and very reliable. They won’t betray you like you clearly have been in the past.
 
Why are people apple fanboying in this thread?
Don’t mistake Apple fanboyism for criticising a shithouse company, who sold its soul to Commie China, thinking it can operate outside the established principles, laws and regulations of a capitalist free market economy because they can’t suck their Western teenage fanboys dry for more hard currency. This shit might fly in China, but it shouldn’t in the civilised world. Apple’s product and software, Apple’s rules. Play by them or go home. Same applies to Google.

Apple are not above any and all criticism for their own behaviour and operation in general, but Epic are taking the piss in this “fight” and using dirty Chinese money to undermine two US companies, with the aim of breaking up US big tech. Now anyone could make a valid argument that that could or should happen. But the people who are hoping they win this particular case don’t see the bigger picture, IMO.
 
What those companies are doing isn't actually breaking the rules. Apple requires 30% from digital in-app purchases, or whatever the terminology is. Amazon app is selling physical goods, so it's OK. Audible as you mentioned, for example, doesn't allow you to buy anything via the app because if it did, it would break the rules.
What Epic was trying to do, is allow you to make in-app digital purchases without giving a cut to Apple, breaking the terms. None of those companies you mentioned were doing that. Epic probably could've made a work around if they wanted to. For example, no in-app purchases at all. Instead log onto epic.com or whatever and buy V-Bucks to your account there (no idea how fortnite works). In reality it seems that they just wanted a fight with Apple.

Yeah you are totally right, just seems so strange to even allow a work-around like this. Maybe if it wasn't such a massive cut to their revenue (30%) they wouldn't of even done the workaround and would have allowed for purchases through the audible app for example. This way the app would be more user-friendly, as well as Apple and/or Google would still get there cut. Instead they are totally cut out.

I mean it is hard not to defend Apple, because Epic obviously broke TOS. At the same time, its hard to like Apple (Or big tech in general) as they are literally yoinking almost half of your revenue from in app purchases..

Just allow people to install third party content on iOS already and problem solved..
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Just allow people to install third party content on iOS already and problem solved..
I mean, Android allows that and Epic still wasn't happy, they wanted to be on the actual Play Store without the fees... And on PC they've just been attacking Steam all over the place too, even though it's not a first party store. Etc. They're just being greedy with dishonest & contradicting arguments.
 
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A.Romero

Member
3 months from now - EpicOS for smartphones, backed by Tencent and Huawei. You just wait.


Are you saying Epic games could drive enough interest to put a third real competitor in the mobile OS market? A market with the following casualties:

- Blackberry (veteran in the old mobile space and with a reputation in the professional market)
- PalmOS (veteran in the old mobile space and with a lot of mindshare)
- Microsoft (experience with older OS releases and the leader of the PC world)
- Nokia (veteran in the old mobile space and leading tech brand)

Just to name a few of the bigger players that went down trying to secure a place. There are many other companies that tried (like Canonical) and would not even figure.

Please, mobile OS is a difficult market and the only way it could produce real profits is by getting a cut from apps sold exclusively from their store (lol).

That's not even taking into account what would be Epic's actual technical capability to enable an actual OS that could compete with the Google's and Apple's that have been in the market for almost two decades, developing new features and getting mind share.

It would be suicidal. Just the same as if Epic/Tencent tried to develop their own console.
 

Pejo

Member
Are you saying Epic games could drive enough interest to put a third real competitor in the mobile OS market? A market with the following casualties:

- Blackberry (veteran in the old mobile space and with a reputation in the professional market)
- PalmOS (veteran in the old mobile space and with a lot of mindshare)
- Microsoft (experience with older OS releases and the leader of the PC world)
- Nokia (veteran in the old mobile space and leading tech brand)

Just to name a few of the bigger players that went down trying to secure a place. There are many other companies that tried (like Canonical) and would not even figure.

Please, mobile OS is a difficult market and the only way it could produce real profits is by getting a cut from apps sold exclusively from their store (lol).

That's not even taking into account what would be Epic's actual technical capability to enable an actual OS that could compete with the Google's and Apple's that have been in the market for almost two decades, developing new features and getting mind share.

It would be suicidal. Just the same as if Epic/Tencent tried to develop their own console.

Well first of all let's be real, it wouldn't ever be Epic making the OS, it'd be a Chinese company, likely by ripping bits and pieces out of both Android/iOS. Epic would be the friendly "for the people!1!!1" face of it. Are you saying that Chinese companies wouldn't like to have all of your data at an OS level? Besides, if they could get the big hitters like TikTok, Fartnite while making the phones themselves super cheap (they can do this), they could really grab a large chunk of the younger demographic which seems to be what they want anyways, given their efforts in the games and entertainment industry.

Besides, don't act like any of those companies above died solely because Android and iOS were goliaths, they each made all sorts of stupid fucking decisions that cost them dearly. I will agree that the margin of error was already small for them because of Google/Apple though.
 

StrongGuy

Member
As a gamer, I don't like whtlat Apple is doing.

As a major shareholder of Apple stock + a ton of SP500 Index Funds, I financially benefit from Apple being an asshole.

At the end of the day, I still prefer my $650k AAPL stock and my $5,000 annual AAPL dividends to Fortnite. Go Apple!
 
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Are you saying that Chinese companies wouldn't like to have all of your data at an OS level?

It isn't just Chinese companies; it is EVERY company. Data is literal gold now a days. Slightly off topic but remember, the reason why Tiktok is getting banned in the US isn't because a chinese company has access to the data. It is because the US doesn't have the data, they are pissed the Chinese goverment is spying on Tiktok users and not themselves.

If any app got as big as Tiktok, regardless of where they are from.. Expect the same events to take place.
 

A.Romero

Member
Well first of all let's be real, it wouldn't ever be Epic making the OS, it'd be a Chinese company, likely by ripping bits and pieces out of both Android/iOS. Epic would be the friendly "for the people!1!!1" face of it. Are you saying that Chinese companies wouldn't like to have all of your data at an OS level? Besides, if they could get the big hitters like TikTok, Fartnite while making the phones themselves super cheap (they can do this), they could really grab a large chunk of the younger demographic which seems to be what they want anyways, given their efforts in the games and entertainment industry.

Besides, don't act like any of those companies above died solely because Android and iOS were goliaths, they each made all sorts of stupid fucking decisions that cost them dearly. I will agree that the margin of error was already small for them because of Google/Apple though.


So why would they need Epic? Branding? I don't really think it's a name that can pull that many people. From a google search it seems that Fortnite's record for player in a month is 78 million... Back in august 2018. They haven't released any new numbers so most likely it hasn't been beaten. Even assuming all of them dropped their current devices and jumped into the new one, it's nothing compared to 2 billion Android users.

The Chinese may want that information but I find it really difficult to believe that their trump card is Fortnite. I don't think Epic would want to be known as a company that deeply connected to Chinese (in the eyes of the general public, I know that among enthusiasts their situation is well known).

The only way I see something like this happening is that a manufacturer decided to include Epic's launcher in their devices by default or even have the game's installer ready to launch from factory. That would be aligned with Google's ToS but they would have to forget Apple devices (the most successful tablet manufacturer).

Believe me, Epic has much more to lose in this fight.

I'm not a fan of Apple but I think they have been clear since the beginning about their business model. They have invested heavily in the past to get to where they are and that is counting on that 30% cut for selling on their stores. Epic enjoyed that market share when launching their products and now that they are big enough (thanks partly to those platforms) they are trying to branch off. That's alright, they are welcome to try but as someone like Microsoft can testify is not an easy task.

If they were planning to do something like that they are approaching it in the wrong way. Why risk having users blocked from their products and revenue source before their own platform is ready? Why not keep selling through the usual channels and once they are ready to do their thing just do what they are doing now?

I bet they are betting on using user's pressure to make Apple and Android give in. However, I don't think they will. For Apple and Google there is much more at stake here than whatever income they are getting from Epic.
 

Javthusiast

Banned
Remember sir, you can still download apps from galaxy store and many other app stores on android. You can also just download the APK, unlike apple

You think many kiddies and their parents will do it though as opposed to have the game on the offical stores? Epic will lose many potential customers.
 

llien

Member
The 30% cut is how console gaming pay for itself, the reason why it makes sense that PS4 cost $399 at launch and not FAR more. Your utopia basically kills console gaming.
You have compared somebody to Apple, who sold "you are holding it wrong" hardware fix for 30 bucks, among other things, and found that other side to be "greedy".
Then you've compared investments that Sony and Microsoft are doing into developing and supporting their platforms as well as physical game distribution to a puny software store upkeep.

I don't know if it is even possible to come up with a comparison that is more bananas than this. :lollipop_bomb:
 

Pejo

Member
So why would they need Epic? Branding? I don't really think it's a name that can pull that many people. From a google search it seems that Fortnite's record for player in a month is 78 million... Back in august 2018. They haven't released any new numbers so most likely it hasn't been beaten. Even assuming all of them dropped their current devices and jumped into the new one, it's nothing compared to 2 billion Android users.

The Chinese may want that information but I find it really difficult to believe that their trump card is Fortnite. I don't think Epic would want to be known as a company that deeply connected to Chinese (in the eyes of the general public, I know that among enthusiasts their situation is well known).

The only way I see something like this happening is that a manufacturer decided to include Epic's launcher in their devices by default or even have the game's installer ready to launch from factory. That would be aligned with Google's ToS but they would have to forget Apple devices (the most successful tablet manufacturer).

Believe me, Epic has much more to lose in this fight.

I'm not a fan of Apple but I think they have been clear since the beginning about their business model. They have invested heavily in the past to get to where they are and that is counting on that 30% cut for selling on their stores. Epic enjoyed that market share when launching their products and now that they are big enough (thanks partly to those platforms) they are trying to branch off. That's alright, they are welcome to try but as someone like Microsoft can testify is not an easy task.

If they were planning to do something like that they are approaching it in the wrong way. Why risk having users blocked from their products and revenue source before their own platform is ready? Why not keep selling through the usual channels and once they are ready to do their thing just do what they are doing now?

I bet they are betting on using user's pressure to make Apple and Android give in. However, I don't think they will. For Apple and Google there is much more at stake here than whatever income they are getting from Epic.
I actually agree with most of your points here. I don't think this has anything to do with the 30%, which is why I think Epic is causing this huge public stink for ulterior motives. I think it's obvious they're either going to lose these lawsuits outright or lose a ton of money in the process, so there has to be some positive for them doing it. They did almost the same exact thing when they launched EGS. It wasn't a "Hey check out our new store, better cut for the devs" it was almost immediately an attack on Steam about their AWFUL platform fees and anti-competition etc etc.

If they're not leveraging a phone OS, which I agree is a much bigger endeavor than a PC games store, they're almost certainly leveraging mindshare for some sort of private storefront for their games and Unreal engine games. Basically what I'm saying is that there's no ending in this where they get Apple to just say "ok we'll take 15% instead, welcome back!" and both sides are happy.
 

A.Romero

Member
I actually agree with most of your points here. I don't think this has anything to do with the 30%, which is why I think Epic is causing this huge public stink for ulterior motives. I think it's obvious they're either going to lose these lawsuits outright or lose a ton of money in the process, so there has to be some positive for them doing it. They did almost the same exact thing when they launched EGS. It wasn't a "Hey check out our new store, better cut for the devs" it was almost immediately an attack on Steam about their AWFUL platform fees and anti-competition etc etc.

If they're not leveraging a phone OS, which I agree is a much bigger endeavor than a PC games store, they're almost certainly leveraging mindshare for some sort of private storefront for their games and Unreal engine games. Basically what I'm saying is that there's no ending in this where they get Apple to just say "ok we'll take 15% instead, welcome back!" and both sides are happy.

Yes. The main reason pushing me away from EGS was that approach. Instead of paying exclusives they should have had a product at the level of Steam (feature wise) instead of just shitting on them and pay off devs. However, they finally got to me with Total War Troy, lol.
 

Hargate

Member
I can't balieve people want a ios/android future where any app can have their own seperate billing system. Do you really want to gamble on each and every app hoping its safe? Also is apple and google gonna have to test and check each and every purchase system. No? then let it be the wild west and the users sue they for not protecting security when they get ripped off by said apps.
 

Sakura

Member
Yeah you are totally right, just seems so strange to even allow a work-around like this. Maybe if it wasn't such a massive cut to their revenue (30%) they wouldn't of even done the workaround and would have allowed for purchases through the audible app for example. This way the app would be more user-friendly, as well as Apple and/or Google would still get there cut. Instead they are totally cut out.

I mean it is hard not to defend Apple, because Epic obviously broke TOS. At the same time, its hard to like Apple (Or big tech in general) as they are literally yoinking almost half of your revenue from in app purchases..

Just allow people to install third party content on iOS already and problem solved..
While it is easy to say Apple is greedy and they steal revenue from companies like Epic without actually doing anything, you have to understand that Apple, Google, Steam, etc built huge install bases for their platforms, and continue to maintain and try to increase their install base. I think that is worth something. Is it worth 30%? I don't know, that is ultimately up to developers to decide. And most of them seem to realise that even paying 30% is worth it for access to those huge markets, because there is a lot of money to be made (just look at Epic's profits for example, even with a 30% cut).
Epic isn't giving Apple 30% for nothing, they are giving 30% for access to Apple's market. Or Nintendo's market. Or Steams market. Etc. Fortnite wouldn't make billions of dollars if it wasn't for the huge markets that companies like Apple built and gave them access too. They are paying some money, to make even more money.
I think cutting out the middle man is a fine strategy. But that isn't really what Epic is doing. They are trying to continue to use the middle man, without paying him. It doesn't really make any sense for the middle man to allow that sort of practice.
 
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Dr Bass

Member
I can't balieve people want a ios/android future where any app can have their own seperate billing system. Do you really want to gamble on each and every app hoping its safe? Also is apple and google gonna have to test and check each and every purchase system. No? then let it be the wild west and the users sue they for not protecting security when they get ripped off by said apps.

Do you go shopping at retail stores and have a problem? Oh no, software companies might be able to integrate stripe into their mobile software! :rolleyes:

Here is what I can't believe. That there are people who think it's ok for two giant companies to determine what software is ok and not ok to use on personal computers that are crucial to the fabric of society, and that they deserve 30% of all transactions occurring via their platform. Imagine if Linux and Windows tried to do that.
 

Mahadev

Member
Steam / Google / Nintendo / Sony / Microsoft.

Pick one and tell me their revenue percentage.


Steam allows other stores to sell products in their own store and directly compete with Steam. Steam also has competition with other stores. It should also be noted that steam has completion on an OS they don't control and therefore don't force their monopolistic shit on it by making the steam store the default or only choice. Google is the middle ground since it allows other stores but not only GooglePlay is the default but they make it fairly difficult to install other stores. Sony and Microsoft consoles on the other hand is a different category, while they use the same tactics as Apple (which is why I'm done with them), they have a very specific purpose, they're not general purpose devices like phones or PCs therefore a closed ecosystem makes more sense for them just like with TVs for example.
 

Hargate

Member
Do you go shopping at retail stores and have a problem? Oh no, software companies might be able to integrate stripe into their mobile software! :rolleyes:

Here is what I can't believe. That there are people who think it's ok for two giant companies to determine what software is ok and not ok to use on personal computers that are crucial to the fabric of society, and that they deserve 30% of all transactions occurring via their platform. Imagine if Linux and Windows tried to do that.


Let me spend millions and millions of dollars developing a phone and app system. Millions more marketing it to make it popular. Then let let a bully come in and knock your wall down and start pissing everywhere to marking their teritory. Also if you think all the apps are just gonna use stripe or something you are living in fantasy land. They will use scam and predatory tactics.
 

MayauMiao

Member
I'm rooting for Apple. Its their phone, their platform, and their store. Epic broke Apple ToS and deserves what's coming to them.

Never like both of them, and I don't see both of them fighting for me as a consumer.
 
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