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Digital Foundry: Developers Having Difficult Time Scaling games back to PS4/Xbox One specs
- Thread starter xStoyax
- Start date
Yeah, Jaguar CPUs are not the best to put it nicely, I remember even back around launch of current gen there were massive question marks over the longevity of the Jag CPUS.
Last gen CPUs in consoles were beasts but this gen we didn't have anywhere near the amount of constantly less 30fps experiences, framerates on big games were shockers last gen but it happened so often that it was normal. This gen has been far better.
Last gen CPUs in consoles were beasts but this gen we didn't have anywhere near the amount of constantly less 30fps experiences, framerates on big games were shockers last gen but it happened so often that it was normal. This gen has been far better.
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How do you even define this? How can you possibly know if Miles Morales started pre-production as a PS4 game? How do you know that Flight Simulator didn't get a Xbox One port once Microsoft realised they could scale it?
You don't and can't. You can only say which games will be cross gen. Leaving, what?, 200 per cent of them out after arbitrarily declaring them "not what we're talking about" does nothing for the conversation, but does conveniently push the no games narrative.
TTOOLL
Member
It may have a similar architecture but it's still underpowered compared to the X and you will need resources to "port" the game, this will increase development costs. I still think it's a terrible ideia overall. Having to support one console is hard enough, but two?
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I'm sorry but you've just confirmed the first party output for the first couple of years at least is absolutely dire. You're listing indie games already on PC and fucking Flight Simulator to try and pad the line up, which says everything. If you want to keep smiling and pretending this is great, go for it.
But your time would be better served being honest and putting pressure on MS to improve.
Indie first party games? Awesome.
Ignoring that contradiction in terms, quality is subjective. Quantity isn't. So why leave them off your list?
Edit: Also, that's the first party line up for probably the first three to six months, save Halo. Spiderman will be a better traditional AAA than any of those games, but Sony will probably just have 1 first party title in the time it takes Microsoft to bring all those titles to console.
So at leasr compare apples to apples.
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TBiddy
Member
Doesn't fit the narrative you know.
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Nope, Halo cross gen, Flight Simulator, Grounded, Gears Tactics, Battletoads does nothing to interest me at all. If you're excited for this, fill your boots...I guess.
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Slings and Arrows
Banned
Who didn't see this coming?
It's a matter of judging nuance.
I didn't say anything about Flight Sim, I'm not really sure what the deal is there.
But regarding the others, it doesn't look like they're cross gen as a result of MS's strategy, just what you'd ordinarily expect. And I'm talking about next gen games getting a current gen version here, btw, not the other way round, as that's where the controversy comes from.
I'm not pushing some kind of no game agenda. I'd have thought what I'm saying is actually in defence of Xbox. Because the complaint is generally, oh this cross gen strategy is really going to hold games back, and I'm saying no, doesn't look like many of their next gen games will actually be cross gen. Only Halo, really.
cormack12
Gold Member
Yeah I dunno why this is so hard to grasp. EA going to leave 30 million FUT players without a new Fifa and make a next gen only one for 3-4 million? Nah.
Insomniac have stated that they basically updated a bunch of PS4 assets for the MM game - it looks like an upscale using the exsiting engine and city but with updates that would have gone beyond what was feasible on the PS4
Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales similar in scope to Uncharted: The Lost Legacy
Insomniac Games has provided a few more details on Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales in terms of scope and story.
www.vg247.com
TBiddy
Member
I think there is literally not a single person on this forum who is surprised by that statement. That said, it's funny though - You start out by posting an incomplete list, only to end out by saying "b-b-but the other games don't interest me!".
MichaelRR1989
Banned
Step 1: Drop all support for Xbox One, starting with Halo Infinite. That includes everything from OG 2013 XBone to Xbox One S.
Step 2: Cancel Lockhart / "Xbox Series S"
Step 3: Do not charge more than $499 for Xbox Series X
Step 4: Relaunch Halo Infinite at an XO event in late 2022, release December 2022, complete with MP. True next-gen graphics. Great SP Story Campaign, with payed DLC planned for 2023, 2024, etc.
Step 2: Cancel Lockhart / "Xbox Series S"
Step 3: Do not charge more than $499 for Xbox Series X
Step 4: Relaunch Halo Infinite at an XO event in late 2022, release December 2022, complete with MP. True next-gen graphics. Great SP Story Campaign, with payed DLC planned for 2023, 2024, etc.
People have been saying this for months. Onky you diehard xbox fans wouldn't believe it.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Well to be fair there is a thread about how bad digital foundry is and there are a lot of posts on there against them, now they come out with negative news about xbox they suddenly believed 100%. What they are saying is true its just posters on here pick and choose what they want to believe all the time. Negative and sony its a lie positive about xbox its a lie. Halo getting delayed is they worst thing ever!!! Forgetting DriveClub was delayed as a launch game to. Just people pick and choose or are very forgetful
Tulipanzo
Member
Phil Spencer
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
"Scalability" was a lie? You don't say....
T-Cake
Member
Step 1: Also including Xbox One X
Step 2: I don't agree with that if it is really as simple as 1080p v 4K with everything else exactly the same
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Good for you. Don't buy a Series X. Hell, if you're not interested, why spend so much time talking about it? Think of all the great things you could get done if you put your mind to it.
Instead of that, you're doing the equivalent of:
Sony first party games: ???.
"HAHA, Sony has no games." (if you look at my highly biased list ignoring the games announced.)
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
It's almost like the forum isn't an echo chamber. A wide variety of opinions on display gives the lazy observer an impression of shifting popularities.
TheGreatWhiteShark
Member
There is nothing more entertaining than watching the exact same people that last week were furious about DIGITAL FOUNDRY and were calling them "PAID MICROSOFT SHILLS" to now praise their insight.
Its like going to a carnaval, only with automatic social distancing applied.
There are more flip-flops in you, than both xbox x and ps5 combined.
Try to remember this next time you make bold statements and attack other people
Its like going to a carnaval, only with automatic social distancing applied.
There are more flip-flops in you, than both xbox x and ps5 combined.
Try to remember this next time you make bold statements and attack other people
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
My point is that most of you have no clue what anti-consumer practices means.
But you're defending a guy who left a bunch of games off his list to cause trouble, and he basically admitted as much. Honestly, you did a better job of it than he did. At least you had a point.
You're right, it's a matter of nuance. There is one cross gen game we've seen so far thta has been poorly received, and that's Halo. Halo has more than the Xbox One holding it back. Grounded has fared better, scaling from X1 to top end PCs quite nicely but it hasn't been optimised so isn't a perfect example. We need more info to make a decision, but I think Digital Foundry is probably spot on.
I truly believe games that can be cross gen probably should be. Other than an appearance of value, it does nothing to block off games that don't need it. When that starts impacting quality, that's different, but I don't think we're quite at the point where we can say that's always the case yet.
.
TBiddy
Member
There's a reason he was perm-banned a while ago.
beck_
Member
In regards to XSX being held back, this will always be the case for first party games, as they will have to support PC release. They wont be able to design games to the XSX spec + SSD due to PC minimum specs (HDD etc). So even if they drop XB1 versions, they are still held back.
And yes, designing games around SSD is a thing that will happen on PS5 first party and its a big deal. I.e. not just impacting level load times by the way.
And yes, designing games around SSD is a thing that will happen on PS5 first party and its a big deal. I.e. not just impacting level load times by the way.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Why should I care of it's difficult. Get back to work and make me some damn games.
Seriously though, just make trash ports for current gen and move on.
Seriously though, just make trash ports for current gen and move on.
Third party. Potential customers. 170 Million of them vs ~2 million by end of September.
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sircaw
Banned
Must admit, even if I had those games for free, I don't think I would even try them. Maybe Grounded to try and befriend a spider, who knows.
I know people go on about Flight sim etc, more power to them, but god damn it looks boring as hell to me.
And Battle toads, no thank you, pass, what the hell did they do to that game.
Stuart360
Member
XSX being held back by PC, i love this forum sometimes.
Out of 2 Microsoft showings, and one Sony showing, we have had 2 games (Rachet and The Medium) that have used the magical SSD's in any 'revolutionary' way, and one of them is already coming to PC.
Most PC gamers already have SSD's, and it will just be the way its always been with PC gaming, you get the spec sheets showing what you need to run the game, and you either have the hardware needed, or you dont.
If that's the level of his contribution, hopefully he'll be gone again before long.
Stilton Disco
Member
It's almost like you're being hyperbolic, and what people were actually complaining about with DF was that several, but not all of their staff had an obvious bias in Xbox's favour.
By extension, given that slight bias in their favour, it adds greater weight to their credibility when making a statement critical of Xbox, not less.
The only flip flopping here is you desperately flailing around for an excuse as to why we shouldn't be taking this seriously.
MrFunSocks
Banned
Are you seriously going to suggest that OP didn’t raise concerns about the Xbox Series X specifically behind held back by the Xbox one, even going so far as to put them in bigger for and bold them, yet didn’t even mention a peep about the PS4 doing the same thing for the PS5? Or how the title specifically only mentioned the Xbox and conveniently left out any mention of PlayStation also holding it back?
oldergamer
Member
DF actually asked the wrong question here. There isn't a single developer that would argue its not difficult. Of course its difficult! Porting down is always a challenge and most teams don't have the resources to dedicate to this. It's the EXACT reason studios are not developing their own game engines, and instead using off the shelf engines that were design from the start to scale up or down.
However, the fact a game publisher or studio wants to dedicate resources to porting down to hardware, doesn't mean this is causing the version for newer hardware to be impacted or "held back" directly.
However, the fact a game publisher or studio wants to dedicate resources to porting down to hardware, doesn't mean this is causing the version for newer hardware to be impacted or "held back" directly.
Walter Matthau
Member
MrFunSocks
Banned
From the reports the S is literally an X with less CUs on the gpu and a bit less RAM. It’s literally a 1080p max Series X. There’s no porting to be done. Lower the resolution and possibly LOD of some characters and models and you’re done.
Stilton Disco
Member
You're falling into the trap of assuming the 'average gaming PC' is owned by an enthusiast who knows what good specs are, was willing to pay a premium for it or built their rig themselves.XSX being held back by PC, i love this forum sometimes.
Out of 2 Microsoft showings, and one Sony showing, we have had 2 games (Rachet and The Medium) that have used the magical SSD's in any 'revolutionary' way, and one of them is already coming to PC.
Most PC gamers already have SSD's, and it will just be the way its always been with PC gaming, you get the spec sheets showing what you need to run the game, and you either have the hardware needed, or you dont.
Most people don't spend more than $700 dollars on a PC/laptop, even when it comes to gaming. Most are prebuilt, using cheap parts and more people are playing using integrated graphics than the top end GPUs.
This is why console generations and a clean break from old hardware are so vital, even for PC, because it raises the baselime for multiplatform titles in a way PC game development would never be able to get away with.
This is part of why MS's stratergy of releasing everything on PC has faced critiscm.
By catering to PC players, they will have to either build the game to ensure it can be played by those with toaster levels of power, or exclude a huge amount of PC gamers by setting the minimum system requirements well above what most players own.
Take SSD's for example. Even assuming you're right, and most PC gamers have SSD's, you'd still be talking about the cheapest, slowest, and least reliable ones being the most commonly used, and thus the same problem of either lowering the games quality to take that into account, or excluding most players, will still exist.
They may well be taking a 'consumer friendly' approach by going multiplatform, but they have to hobble their own studios to do so, unless they're planning on making PC games that only the tiny minority of PC players with high end specs will be able to play.
Stilton Disco
Member
Yeah, just like everyone said porting to last gen consoles means just putting down a few settings and lowering the resolution, I'm calling bollocks on this until we see actual proof of XSX games that are demonstrably superior graphically and feature wise to PS5 exclusives, while also working perfectly on XSS.
MrFunSocks
Banned
Good to see that title change really helped....... /s
The OP needs to have all the bullshit fanboy crap cut out too, because people are reading OPs anti Xbox garbage and still taking it as gospel even with the new title.
The OP needs to have all the bullshit fanboy crap cut out too, because people are reading OPs anti Xbox garbage and still taking it as gospel even with the new title.
Stuart360
Member
The same tiresome 'facts' that console gamers say about PC gaming, the 'tiny' amount of PC gamers that have high end PC's. The 1060, 2060, and 2070 are currently the most used gpu's on Steam, all 3 cards more powerful than the most powerful console currently in the OneX. And once the 3000 series cards launch, you will quickly see the 3060 and 3070 become the most used cards on Steam, both cards more powerful than either next gen console.
The Medium, one of the 2 games that use the magical SSD's in any impressive way, is already coming to PC, and correct me if i'm wrong, it doesnt even specify needing a SSD. I think it reccomends one, but its not needed.
I swear this is the first new console gen for some of you. I mean i know the PS4/XB1 were pretty low spec at launch, but new console gens usually have powerful new consoles. Look at 360 when it launched, and its 720p/60 port of COD2, the kind of PC you needed to match it was very high end.
Not really. As long as the CPU is exactly the same so the main game engine can work unmodified and the I/O is the same so you don't have to build different streaming solutions the only difference is that one will use UHD assets and the other will use 1080p assets which is required anyway for PC support.
MrFunSocks
Banned
Who said that though? Who has said that porting to shitty 10 year old netbook CPUs was easy? No one.
Porting from Jaguar to Ryzen? Easy.
Porting from Ryzen to Jaguar? Not easy.
Despite OP doing his hardest fanboying, Microsoft are not forcing anyone to down port their games to the Xbox one. Developers are doing it because they still want to sell their games to the 160 million current gen console owners. The PS4 has *worse* CPU than the XB1, so it will be even harder to port to that.
Of course OP conveniently left out the whole part about the PS4 though. I’m sure it was just a mistake.....
From the leaks the S has the *exact* same CPU as the X, so it’s literally just running the game at lower resolution and with lower LOD. There’s no “porting” to be done. It’s the same CPU. This tweet is about the CPU being the limiting factor. If it’s the same on the S and the X then the cpu limits nothing between them.
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TheGreatWhiteShark
Member
just because you can't comprehend that they are a TEAM that works bounded together, and you prefer to make separations between them according to which points they each raise in their usual dialogs, that does not change reality.
Humdinger
Member
Sounds like the marketing BS actually worked because I remember quite a few people saying it wouldn't affect the games
Yeah, I remember a lot of Xbox guys saying it would be a simple matter, to craft games for the higher system and then downscale them to run on the earlier systems, too. They made it sound like it was just a matter of adjusting a few sliders, no big deal. This sounds ridiculous in retrospect, but it was a very common belief in the Xbox camp, a year ago.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Can't help but feel that people are reading more into this than is actually there.
In simple terms its way, way easier to scale back based on gpu performance than cpu due to the nature of the work each component is tasked with.
You can simply downscale or simplify the visual output if your gpu can't hit target frametime, but with cpu based tasks then literally every process needs to be looked at, and if necessary scaled back or omitted. Hence, lots more work.
In simple terms its way, way easier to scale back based on gpu performance than cpu due to the nature of the work each component is tasked with.
You can simply downscale or simplify the visual output if your gpu can't hit target frametime, but with cpu based tasks then literally every process needs to be looked at, and if necessary scaled back or omitted. Hence, lots more work.
Virex
Banned
Shhhhhhh.......don't spoil it. It entertains me
Wide variety? This forum is the worst Sony fanboy hive. Any favorable opinion about Xbox is laughed at and all criticism regarding Sony dismissed.
Stilton Disco
Member
The PS5 and XSX are on a par with a 2070/2080, cards which have been out for years now, and only about 5-6% of steam users are equaling or bettering:
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
Sure, the 3000 series is around the corner, so even the 3060 will likely be as good or better, but the vast majority of PC players will still have systems well below next gen console specs for years to come.