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Xbox Series X And PS5 Raw Power Is Not As Important As How Devs Will Use It – The Initiative Dev

a bit faster SSD ? Really ? LOL

Also, the average speed of the RAM is faster on PS5.
How?
616GB 2080ti
XSX 560GB. GPU.
5700xt 448GB GPU
PS5 446GB GPU WITH Memory contention.
PS5 446GB CPU. WITH Memory contention.
XSX 320GB CPU

2080ti 352bits.
XSX 320bits.
PS5 256bits.
5700xt 256bits

Pixel fill rate
XSX 146
PS5 142
2080ti 136
5700xt 122

Texture Rate
2080ti 420
XSX 379
PS5 321
5700xt 304

TMUs
2080ti 272
XSX 208
Ps5 177
5700xt 160

ROPs
2080ti 88
XSX 80
Ps5 64
5700xt 64

L2 Cache
2080TI 5.5mb
XSX 5mb
PS5 4mb
5700xt 4mb

All numbers are based on highest clocks. So he is right. PS5 is a little better than a 5700xt. So I say again how?
 

jonesxlv

Neo Member
It really is 2013 all over again,except role reversal. It reminds me of the data move engines, esram, etc closing the gap, or allowing rare instances where the XB1 gpu might just have a tenzy advantage in something.

It is 2013 again, this time with a new generation of angsty young gamers spinning their nonsense. It never changes... and it is getting so fucking old and boring.
 
you have a weird way of connecting dots. I suggest rereading what I wrote. Just cause they own more studios, doesn't mean they are gonna magically come out swinging with great exclusives. Judging by their handling of IPs in the past, I am a bit skeptical. yet you somehow turned that into "Xbox doomed" argument, while I keep repeating I am looking forward to what they have to offer. Have a good day, this is a dumb argument cause you clearly arent open to any skepticism towards Xbox.

I mean, Ninja Theory has a great track record. Obsidian mostly has a great track record. Playground has built a new AAA world class full of Rockstar/Rocksteady devs. The Initiative is full of ex Sony Santa Monica, Naught Dog, Rockstar devs.

And yes, Sherlock, nothing is for certain, anymore than the next wave of sony exclusives can turn out to be duds or disappointing. But there is no denying MS has significantly invested/improved their 1st party.
 

Xplainin

Banned
Well the Xbox has more CUs so it needs more bandwidth. Otherwise it would be a poorly designed system. The vast majority of problems in building these systems is bandwidth. What's the point of having compute if the data I need to compute on isn't available?

Given the CU counts on both systems and the bandwidth between RAM and GPU the XSX needs 647 gb/s to match the PS5 configuration. It's shy of that by ~100 gb/s.

This doesn't mean that the PS5 is a more powerful machine but it does mean that from all indications the PS5 is better designed.
Nah, you are a bit off.
Audio, OS and CPU don't require as high a bandwidth as the GPU does. The 360gb/s Will be more than enough for those. The 10gb/s of super fast bandwidth @ 560gb/s is where the action is. The GPU of the XSX is more powerful, and MS have made sure that the bandwidth presents no bottlenecks at all.
To give you an idea. The XSX is around the 2080 Super levels of power.
The 2080 Super has 11.1tflops.
It has only 8gbs of GDDR6 Vram, at 496gb/s bandwidth.
So the XSX has more RAM, higher bandwidth as well as an SSD to keep the RAM feed faster than the 2080 Super is guaranteed to have.
Trust me, MS hasn't cheaped out with memory or bandwidth. Its better than a 2080 super.
 
I mean, Ninja Theory has a great track record. Obsidian mostly has a great track record. Playground has built a new AAA world class full of Rockstar/Rocksteady devs. The Initiative is full of ex Sony Santa Monica, Naught Dog, Rockstar devs.

And yes, Sherlock, nothing is for certain, anymore than the next wave of sony exclusives can turn out to be duds or disappointing. But there is no denying MS has significantly invested/improved their 1st party.
Didn't deny it, amigo, it's like you're not even reading what I said lol. So ill say it again, I'm skeptical because of how this gen went, but I am cautiously optimistic.
 
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It's about time they invested really, to repeat this gen in terms of first-party content would unacceptable. Still that list is pretty underwhelming compared to what the opposition have. We know there will be more great Forza games going forward, but you look at the track record of the others and doesn't compare with Sony and Nintendo so they have a lot to prove. This week will hopefully give us an indication of where they're headed.

I disagree.MS now has about 7 AAA studios. And MS isn't done. And the smaller studios are growing.
343 Industries
The Coalition
Ninja Theory
Rare
Playground (two teams)
Turn 10
InXile (expanding to AAA studio)
Double Fine
The Initiative
Obsidian
The Compulsion
 
Didn't deny it, amigo, it's like you're not even reading what I said lol

I did read what you said. You're point is that nothing is a guarantee and some of the games may not turn out great. My point is, that goes for Nintendo/Sony/MS. There will be good games, there will be not so good games. Thanks, Sherlock!

You also tried to imply that just because some of MS 3rd party exclusives didn't work out, don't expect 1st party games to set the world on fire.

You also implied that MS will just stop investing in 3rd party exclusives and replace them with 1st party and the number of exclusives will remain the same. I suggested that they can do both.

You're expressing why you have doubts, but still hope for the best. I'm expressing why i don't see the doubt that you're expressing.
 
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I did read what you said. You're point is that nothing is a guarantee and some of the games may not turn out great. My point is, that goes to Nintendo/Sony/MS.

You also tried to imply that just because some of MS 3rd party exclusives didn't work out, don't expect 1st party games to set the world on fire.

You also implied that MS will just stop investing in 3rd party exclusives and replace them with 1st party. I suggested that they can do both.

You're expressing why you have doubts, but still hope for the best. I'm expressing why i don't see the doubt that you're expressing.
again with putting words in my mouth. Never said they won't invest in 3rd party. I said they had 3rd party exclusives last-gen and instead they are gonna have more first-party games(which isn't = no 3rd party). Im gonna trust a publisher with solid record (SONY, Nintendo) over those who didn't deliver. MS first party wasn't that good, I played sea of thieves at launch, I played crackdown, I played halo 5. All these games were shown off at multiple e3s, only to disappoint me. It's hard to see my doubts if you actually liked those games which is fine. But thinking that everyone's experience is in line with yours is pretty stupid. I can have my doubts just like you can have your optimism if you are an adult. Or you can argue pointlessly about nothing, bringing up shit I didn't say cause you thought I implied it.
 
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bohrdom

Banned
Nah, you are a bit off.
Audio, OS and CPU don't require as high a bandwidth as the GPU does. The 360gb/s Will be more than enough for those. The 10gb/s of super fast bandwidth @ 560gb/s is where the action is. The GPU of the XSX is more powerful, and MS have made sure that the bandwidth presents no bottlenecks at all.
To give you an idea. The XSX is around the 2080 Super levels of power.
The 2080 Super has 11.1tflops.
It has only 8gbs of GDDR6 Vram, at 496gb/s bandwidth.
So the XSX has more RAM, higher bandwidth as well as an SSD to keep the RAM feed faster than the 2080 Super is guaranteed to have.
Trust me, MS hasn't cheaped out with memory or bandwidth. Its better than a 2080 super.

You're misrepresenting what I'm saying and a lot of what you're saying is misguided.

You're comparing the bandwidths used for XSX GPU to NVIDIA's GPU. This is incorrect because they have very different architectures and as a consequence the bandwidth requirements change.

I'm comparing the PS5 GPU to XSX GPU. They have a far similar feature set and architecture since they're literally basing their designs off of AMD. My earlier post did simple math:

The XSX has 52 CUs @ 560 GB/s.
The PS5 has 36 CUs @ 448 GB/s.

If you want to have the same amount of data available / CU on XSX as you have on PS5, you need 52/36*448 = 647 GB/s.

However, I will admit that I might be wrong in even doing this calculation if the two archs are significantly different. Someone with more knowledge should correct me if I am.
 
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Xplainin

Banned
You're misrepresenting what I'm saying and a lot of what you're saying is misguided.

You're comparing the bandwidths used for XSX GPU to NVIDIA's GPU. This is incorrect because they have very different architectures and as a consequence the bandwidth requirements change.

I'm comparing the PS5 GPU to XSX GPU. They have a far similar feature set and architecture since they're literally basing their designs off of AMD. My earlier post did simple math:

The XSX has 52 CUs @ 560 GB/s.
The PS5 has 36 CUs @ 448 GB/s.

If you want to have the same amount of data available / CU on XSX as you have on PS5, you need 52/36*448 = 647 GB/s.

However, I will admit that I might be wrong in even doing this calculation if the two archs are significantly different. Someone with more knowledge should correct me if I am.
Where does the CU count have to do with anything?
It doesn't, thats just a weird thing to compare it to.
The PS5 Cu's are working harder than the XSX ones are. So surely if a PS5 CU is working harder it needs more bandwidth?
Tflops vs Bandwidth is a far better way to compare.
 

Justin9mm

Member
Raw power is not everything, because developers can always use various tricks and gimmicks in order to achieve good results at much lower cost. UE5 is a good example, because lumen is not nearly as expensive as standard RT GI, yet it also looks very good.

GPU power will be however always important and that's the reason why UE5 tech demo run at sub 1440p and 30fps on PS5. Magician Cerny want to trick people into thinking ultra fast SSD will make PS5 games look like next gen compared to XSX / PC platforms and unfortunatelly many PS fans buy sony marketing. Some people even believe PS5 will run close to 2.2GHz even when Cerny has contradicted himself in the same video (luckily to him most people cant connect just two dots). I bet people who believe in PS5 marketing are the same people who believed PS4P will run games at 4K.
Sub 1440p? It was Native 1440p.
 

bohrdom

Banned
Where does the CU count have to do with anything?
It doesn't, thats just a weird thing to compare it to.
The PS5 Cu's are working harder than the XSX ones are. So surely if a PS5 CU is working harder it needs more bandwidth?
Tflops vs Bandwidth is a far better way to compare.

Well the CU count is really important because each CU does the actual computation. They have the processing elements that compute on the data piped from memory. If you don't have enough data feeding through your system, your system just stalls and it's just inefficient.

This is where there isn't enough details about the system. The PS5 GPU is clocked higher than a XSX GPU since it does something different in its caching. So I'm not sure if it impacts my earlier bandwidth comparison calculations. If I assume that the clocks for the two systems are roughly the same my earlier calculations hold.

Also what do you mean by TFLOP vs Bandwidth? Plotting them?
 
Surely this entire thread is about 'technicalities' otherwise nobody would be talking about 'tech'. The irony is that probably 90% of people on this forum (including myself) don't really know how this stuff works and are just parroting whatever they hear that fits what they want to have happen.

Back on topic, I generally agree that it's going to be more about budgets and the freedom to spend the time needed to craft something truly next-gen. I get the feeling that Sony will, again, have the better first party line up.
Faster could mean a more powerful GPU or boosted clock, choose which one suites you.
You misunderstood my post.
 

Xplainin

Banned
Well the CU count is really important because each CU does the actual computation. They have the processing elements that compute on the data piped from memory. If you don't have enough data feeding through your system, your system just stalls and it's just inefficient.

This is where there isn't enough details about the system. The PS5 GPU is clocked higher than a XSX GPU since it does something different in its caching. So I'm not sure if it impacts my earlier bandwidth comparison calculations. If I assume that the clocks for the two systems are roughly the same my earlier calculations hold.

Also what do you mean by TFLOP vs Bandwidth? Plotting them?
I mean the system performance vs bandwidth.
XSX - 560 ÷ 12.1 = 46.28gb per tflop
PS5 - 446 ÷ 10.28 = 43.38gb per tflop

XSX with a slightly higher bandwidth per tflop of performance, while neither will have an issue with bandwidth.
 

Soodanim

Member
Wasn’t the original Xbox more powerful than the PS2? Wasn’t the Xbox One X more powerful than the PS4 Pro?

This console warring will never stop because like every sport that exists people like to get attached to entities they cannot influence then get highly emotional about their arbitrary alignment. But it’s all nonsense, and power doesn’t determine anything. Games do. If it’s fun and runs well enough, great.
 

Mister Wolf

Gold Member
Sorry, I stand corrected. But from what I was reading it was 1440p most of the time. It didn't really dip that much at all.
blob


When someone opts to use a resolution scaler in the first place its hard for me to believe what they say about "not many dips". Would love to have seen how often that demo could maintain 30fps with a locked resolution.
 

supernova8

Banned
Faster could mean a more powerful GPU or boosted clock, choose which one suites you.
You misunderstood my post.

Personally I'd say to the layman who doesn't even know about stuff like clock speeds, 'faster' would mean overall better.
FLOPs has been a decent measure of performance especially when comparing GPUs from the same family of architectures so considering the X has more CUs, it's not looking like Sony can boast better which is why they can only go with 'technically faster'.
 

Kumomeme

Member
the devs just said that the hardware is evenly matches and highlight the most important things, which is no matter what the hardware power scalling is, its all depend on how developers utilize the piece of hardware

i think most of people understand this as we had many example this gen but people still immediately goes for console power scalling wars here
 
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Xbox 1st party dev downplaying power is.......interesting.

Thats not what he's doing. He's saying talent trumps everything else. Look at Zelda Breath of the Wild on the Switch. XB1X is significantly more powerful than the Pro, yet look at TLOU2 or GOW. Look at Ryse on the vanilla XB1. Powerful hardware means nothing if you don't have very talented devs to get the most out of it.

XSX is a beast. Make no mistake. And for the record, devs love to get the credit for amazing looking games, not the platform they work on. Devs take pride in their work.
 
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Shmunter

Member
Thats not what he's doing. He's saying talent trumps everything else. Look at Zelda Breath of the Wild on the Switch. XB1X is significantly more powerful than the Pro, yet look at TLOU2 or GOW. Look at Ryse on the vanilla XB1. Powerful hardware means nothing if you don't have very talented devs to get the most out of it.

XSX is a beast. Make no mistake. And for the record, devs love to get the credit for amazing looking games, not the platform they work on. Devs take pride in their work.
I don’t disagree. But devs don’t usually toot their own horns in this regard, especially when they have no track record. With console launch upcoming it comes across as a preemptive damage control almost. Could be off base
 
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I don’t disagree. But devs don’t usually toot their own horns in this regard, especially when they have no track record. With console launch upcoming it comes across as a preemptive damage control almost. Could be off base

The dev speaking is an ex Rockstar and Naughty Dog dev. He works at elite studios and on big games.
 

Psykodad

Banned
Thats not what he's doing. He's saying talent trumps everything else. Look at Zelda Breath of the Wild on the Switch. XB1X is significantly more powerful than the Pro, yet look at TLOU2 or GOW. Look at Ryse on the vanilla XB1. Powerful hardware means nothing if you don't have very talented devs to get the most out of it.

XSX is a beast. Make no mistake. And for the record, devs love to get the credit for amazing looking games, not the platform they work on. Devs take pride in their work.
Obviously that's the case, but it's weird to use that rhetoric when you develop a game for what's considered the more powerful system.

In a way, that's either downplaying your system's strengths, or uptalking your competitors.
Although since they have former Sony Studios employees, it kinda makes sense to not diminish the skills of your former co-workers.
 
Obviously that's the case, but it's weird to use that rhetoric when you develop a game for what's considered the more powerful system.

In a way, that's either downplaying your system's strengths, or uptalking your competitors.
Although since they have former Sony Studios employees, it kinda makes sense to not diminish the skills of your former co-workers.

I don't find it weird at all, anymore than i don't find it weird Sony or any of their devs have ever stated PS5 is the most powerful next gen system, yet Phil and MS scream it to the rooftop with full confidence
 
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Hezekiah

Banned
I disagree.MS now has about 7 AAA studios. And MS isn't done. And the smaller studios are growing.
343 Industries
The Coalition
Ninja Theory
Rare
Playground (two teams)
Turn 10
InXile (expanding to AAA studio)
Double Fine
The Initiative
Obsidian
The Compulsion
No that's not my point, it's about the quality these studios output. Sony has as many studios if not more, and they have a history of putting out top level games. Not sure how many Nintendo have but they likewise put out lots of great games. MS has some tough competition to live up to.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
that is exactly what I was trying to say. This guy made it seem like I'm out for blood lol
Yeah I get you! I have a gaming PC so I can get any MS exclusive on it, but console wise I veer toward PS5 because not only the IPs Sony has (and to add Horizon, Days Gone and Ghosts this gen was awesome), but the quality of their studios is on another level. Only game of interest to is Gears which I love but is need of new ideas.

Like this guy says that 18% GPU power means nothing without the games (diminishing returns, plus I'll be getting a 3080 at year-end anyway lol). When I look at Obsidian, Undead Labs and Exile I'm not exactly seeing anything stellar or that can compare in their resumes, but like you not writing them off until I see what they got.
 

Mr Moose

Member
First multiplatform game running 4K 60fps on PS5 and 120fps on XSX. Of course people will still keep saying TFLOPS are not important 😅
Screenshot-20200721-130407-Samsung-Internet-2.jpg
4lduBOF.gif



The indie game with the dolphin? Bro there will be people playing this game at 240fps on PC with their 21 TFLOP 3080ti. But it'll still be a 2D indie game where you're controlling a dolphin.
He's the guy who made that potato game right? He is an Xbox fanboy, he was talking shit about PS5 a while back lol, I doubt he has a dev kit.
 
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GreyHand23

Member
First multiplatform game running 4K 60fps on PS5 and 120fps on XSX. Of course people will still keep saying TFLOPS are not important 😅
Screenshot-20200721-130407-Samsung-Internet-2.jpg

This developer is an attention seeking troll themselves. This is all designed to capture mind share so he can sell his game better later this year. We've all seen the game. It can easily run at 120 fps on both systems and the only reason it wouldn't is because this guy just doesn't want it to for attention seeking.
 

TheMan

Member
Such a no shit statement. It reminds me how silly people ask things like “will 60 FPS be standard this gen?” The answer is and will be that it’s up to developers. 4k60 is possible right now but developers make decisions to focus power and development time on other priorities. So yeah, games don’t make themselves-the people making them have to use their tools as they see fit to make their art
 

PaintTinJr

Member
This is really interesting actually, I am wondering if the utilization rate on Zen 2 will have improved over Jaguar. Certainly would think so, so we could be looking at maybe 80% utilization, maybe even a tad higher depending on how some of the rumors that float around shake out (like unified L3 cache between the CCXs). I remember @NXGamer doing a video on the next-gen GPUs and they threw out a random GPU utilization number for the PS4 and XBO that seemed a bit low. I dunno if that was just them going with a gut feeling of a number or if there's research that's been done (by whomever) to back it up but in that vid they also suggest that GPU throughput utilization for the next-gen systems should be much higher, his number was 65% and was maybe being conservative IMHO.

...
After reading your post I went and checked the AMD Stream processor info, and it turns out AMD's collaboration with Sony on PS4 resulted in the steam processors being wrapped back into the GPU as part of GCN (Async compute AFAIK), so the Zen2 cores are just as inefficient at such workloads as intel i7, PPC at 40-50% because of the branch prediction logic. However, I take your point about the XsX VA probably using ARM or some other ASIC option that is as efficient (+90%) as the IO complex.

What we don't know is what Xbox really means when they say 10% of a Zen2 core. Do they mean 10% of theoretical, or 10% in real work done. If they mean the later, the 50-60% inefficiency of the VA interfacing with a CPU core (to copy to memory) is in fact already factored in - so it means 10/40 or 10/50 20-25% theoretical of a core to get 10% real work done. 760Mhz - 950Mhz used, rather than 380Mhz.

If that is the case, it is a relatively small overhead and if able to evenly split across 8 cores and factored out for the developers by the hypervisor, then it would just mean the XsX CPU cores in SMT disabled mode would be running at 3.7GHz - or maybe at the full amount if Microsoft have clocked the CPU higher than 3.8GHz but opaquely held the extra back for the IO.

There is a possibility that the primary CPU core (that will need SMT mode enabled AFAIK) will need to be used for such a high priority, low latency task, in that case, I wouldn't be expecting the +90% of 6GB/s, but 40-50% of +90% of the 6GB/s., only because whether the 380Mhz-475Mhz gets deducted from the 3.6GHz or as a boost clock on the main core, going above 4GHz on the main core or dropping below 3.2GHz (to partition that performance off) wouldn't seem like a good solution.

I suspect it is the former solution with it an invisible upclock across the 8 cores and XsX getting +90% of the 6GB/s theoretical. I still think all the info we have about the asymmetric access points towards GDDR6 memory contention by the IO decompressor lowering the data width down to 160bits and the bandwidth down to 280GB/s for those transfers.

I'm a little disappointed that Xbox haven't offered more info on the VA and asymmetric memory considering at a glance (IMHO) it looks so unfavourable in real workloads to the simpler IO complex and unifed RAM setup; even just using the Zen2 core of decompression copies presumably adds latency to the IO compared to the dedicated IO complex hardware.
 

mili2110

Member
After reading this article again:

I do think that PS5 and XSX will be closer than some might think.
  • RAM
  • I/O
  • SSD speed and function
  • Audio hardware
All are in favor of the PS5. Yes even RAM.
the Xbox SX either has only 7.5 GB of interleaved memory operating at 560 GB/s for game utilisation before it has to start "lowering" the effective bandwidth of the memory below that of the PS5... or the SX has an averaged mixed memory bandwidth that is always below that of the baseline PS4.

Accessing more than 10GB of Ram within a game, the memory interface must start switching or splitting the access to the memory portions.
The Tempest Engine and Custom I/O HW will help lift the burden of the CPU, which possibly make the PS5 CPU even faster than XSX!? (I am not sure about that)
Nevermind the more than 2x SSD speed. However I dont think this will help framerate.

I still do think that GPU power is key and that XSX has the advantage here (min. 18%, but more likely 20%+) and probably will have higher res or more Raytracing effects in games.

Last words: This gen Digital Foundry videos will be boring as hell as you wont be able tell the difference between the consoles graphics, only with 0.2x slow-mo speed and 100x zoom.
 
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