JustP_Gaming
Banned
Xbox only had Halo / Gears / Forza available really. after July 23rd. this will all change.
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Xbox Series X And PS5 Raw Power Is Not As Important As How Devs Will Use It – The Initiative Dev
- Thread starter IbizaPocholo
- Start date
- Opinion Game Dev
Possibly, though the ps5 most definitely has Ray tracing hardware but you're right it, the hardware, might not be "dedicated" for exclusive Ray tracing use. It might be the in the CU where the CU cannot raster AND Ray trace at the same time, on the same unit of hardware.
( unlike the XSX, whereas the XSX principal architect says it can in parallel: " says Andrew Goossen. "For the Series X, this work is offloaded onto dedicated hardware and the shader can continue to run in PARALLEL with full performance. In other words, Series X can EFFECTIVELY tap the EQUIVALENT of well over 25 TFLOPs of performance WHILE ray tracing.")
It might be that the ps5 can do one or the other as designed by for the particular game or scenario in a particular game but the CU cannot do both in parallel like the XSX. That's what I've determined at least, what I'm seeing.
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eastwood333
Banned
One big problem. You're ignoring the fact PS4 exclusives like TLOU2(1440p/30)GOW(30fps)GoS(30fps) target 30fps vs Halo 5(Native 4k/60fps/Gears 5(native 4k/60fps) both targeting DOUBLE the framerate.
I'm confused, how is not targeting DOUBLE the framerate vs the competition's 30fps not considered talented? Is it ignorance? Bias? Why aren't sony exclusives targeting 60fps? We know why, the graphics would be significantly downgraded and have compromises like Halo 5/Gears 5 had to make.
What you said may be partially accurate right now, but it's a whole new ball game when you factor in Playground, The Initiative,Ninja Theory on top of 343, The Coalition,and Turn 10
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eastwood333
Banned
Persona/Bloodborne are 3rd party.
Hellblade reviewed high
The Outer Worlds Reviewed high
Pillars of Eternity reviewed high
Forza Motorsport/Horizon reviewed high
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sendit
Member
I can push 144+ FPS on many games on my PC, does that make me talented?
eastwood333
Banned
Thats a stupid comparison. We're talking console(XB vs PS) Why is it Xbox games like Halo 5/Gears 5 target 60fps on top of very high resolution, while all Sony exclusives target (1440p/30fps)instead of 60fps?
Because the graphics would be significantly cut back like Halo 5 and Gears 5 had to make. Why is 343/The Coalition not considered talented for making their games run at twice the framerate vs Sony 1st party studios? Its a simple question.
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Bingo
Explosive Zombie
Banned
This is the same language I use when trying to get in bed with someone.
Kerotan
Member
I for one am delighted they target the better graphics because they wow me way more then 60fps ever would. It's not RL or R6 or COD they're developing. Despite that GOW actually runs well above 30fps.
sendit
Member
A valid comparison. I suggest you look at the performance of games you mentioned on the base Xbox One. 4K and increased FPS are a product of a more powerful hardware, not talent.
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That was Eastwood's point. As well as what their talent has done with inferior hardware.
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Trainsmove
Banned
if you remember from their original xbox which is from the same engineer, The system looked at both pools of ram as one . The Esram and the main memory. So your assumption that It's one big pool at this time is unconfirmed and most likely Wrong.
As far ROPs the closet to the ps5 from AMD will be the 5700xt Refresh in 7nm. The numbers come from Tech power up And are calculated with Playstation 5 boost clock. So no it doesn't have more ROPs.
sendit
Member
You mean Gears 5 dropping all the way down to 30 FPS@792p on the OG Xbox One? If that is what defines talent to you then
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Psykodad
Banned
"We have a product for people who don't want to buy XSX, it's called Xbox One S. Runs all next-gen XSX titles flawlessly."
Shmunter
Member
Can it run the dolphin game?
Psykodad
Banned
"4K/60fps, matching our competitors most powerful system."
Shmunter
Member
Sold
Hezekiah
Banned
All the main Persona games have been PlayStation exclusive, so I guess they're basically second-party in terms of the franchise. That's a real big boost for the platform. But again putting reviews to one side those games, and the Obsidian games you listed above they aren't big sellers - that's fine because they're not AAA games with massive expectations, but Xbox is going to need a lot more to compete this gen.
bishopcruz
Member
in other news, the sky is blue, water is wet.
eastwood333
Banned
Persona is 3rd party. They're coming to PC and think may be coming to Switch. We were talking 1st party studios. I agree, MS still has more work to do and i think they'll end up acquiring WB Gaming Division. If not, Phil has stated they're still looking for more acquistions.
Hezekiah
Banned
Persona 4 is on PC, Persona 5 isn't and it's not coming to Switch. It think it makes sense to think in terms of exclusives, but if we're talking first-party yeah I think the point stands. MS has a vision to build it's subscriber base, but it's strategy has been impacted by it's party output and it's why MS has written off so much money on GamePass.
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Neo_game
Member
Only dev will know exactly how the ram in X works but it is not 560+336. It is also 14Ghz like the PS5. The only difference is PS5 has full 16gb, 256bit. Where as X has a wider bus width 320bit for 10gb and narrow 192bit for the remaining 6gb. Both will be 64ROP's. Someone posted a pic of AMD, Nvidia GPU in next gen thread, not sure how accurate it is but there was no 80ROPs in that list.
Trainsmove
Banned
Excellent job, And although you didn't get into the weeds about memory contention We'll save that for next time. But something else I feel a lot of people have a misconception about is the fact that Sony's SSD solution Is not Efficient as Microsoft's ssd. Here's an example A simplified one. SSD to IO engine to main memory That's how Sony solution works. Microsoft solution is SSD to IO engine to CPU or GPU or main memory. This will have a nother huge advantage for xbox Series X.
256bits is shared between cpu and gpu in PS5. So one has to wait for execution of another and that's called memory contention. That's not the case in XSX.
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Knightime_X
Member
This logic has been applied to every console ever.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I didn't say Xbox will do true 3D audio, raytraced to begin with. They are clearly going for low quality CPU-based 3D audio that can be acheived this gen with 7.1 Channel headphones. It would be crazy for them to try and catch up with PS5's solution through using their main GPU. AMD knows better:
Xbox won't have that true 3D audio experience. Will have something like this which will be slightly better than current gen:
EDIT:
AMD TrueAudio Next needed to reserve 4 CU's to produce around 32 true 3D sources around 2018:
The Tempest can produce 5,000 sound sources and hundreds of complex true 3D audio sources, making every droplet of rain to have its own sound source.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Bo_Hazem
AMD True Audio Next reserved 4 GCN CUs, yes. But the next-gen systems are using RDNA2. So at most even supposing MS needs to use CUs for matching Tempest, they'd only likely need 1 CU or a portion of a single CU.From wiki:
And that doesn't account for knowing in full what their audio setup is. I doubt it'll be just a minor improvement over current-gen audio, even if it ends up not being quite as robust as Sony's Tempest Engine.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
From wiki:
And that doesn't account for knowing in full what their audio setup is. I doubt it'll be just a minor improvement over current-gen audio, even if it ends up not being quite as robust as Sony's Tempest Engine.
AMD TrueAudio Next needed to reserve 4 CU's to produce around 32 true 3D sources
Vs
The Tempest can produce 5,000 sound sources and hundreds of complex true 3D audio sources.
The difference is MASSIVE. Xbox won't even dream of reaching that. And AMD TrueAudio Next is STILL massively better than Xbox solution. No matter how you push your dreams, it can't break hard (harsh?) facts.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Who said xsx doesn't has hardware for audio? Go read the posts again and try to understand. (Hint: CPU-BASED VS GPU-BASED).
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RaySoft
Member
So you mean every dev have to override exec interupts & methods and write their own "kernel" code? Sounds rather stoopid.
If you override an interrupt, that means every time that interrupt happens, it point's to your code BEFORE it runs the original exec code. So if you would like more priority levels outside if the two you got (in hardware) you introduce lag (ms) in the mix.
Why would they replace the OS interrupts anyways? MS would rather implement that into the OS/SDK if they could. I call bullshit on this.
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Lort
Banned
The hardware on the original xbox does all the 3d positional aspects .. its not “cpu” based.
Some people love overselling everybit of marketing hyper they read.
Here is the unity engine running 100,000 unique sounds in 3d space will amazing graphics and it runs on an iphone... from 2018.
Megacity Multiplayer: Competitive action game sample
Learn more about building ambitious multiplayer games using ECS and Unity Gaming Services with this competitive shooter sample that supports 64+ players.
unity.com
Bo_Hazem
Banned
The hardware on the original xbox does all the 3d positional aspects .. its not “cpu” based.
Some people love overselling everybit of marketing hyper they read.
Here is the unity engine running 100,000 unique sounds in 3d space will amazing graphics and it runs on an iphone... from 2018.
Megacity Multiplayer: Competitive action game sample
Learn more about building ambitious multiplayer games using ECS and Unity Gaming Services with this competitive shooter sample that supports 64+ players.
Yeah, that demo sounds like crap, and you still don't understand what I'm talking about, but I will stop here with you as I'm only responding to
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
because he tagged me on some wrong claims he made about me.
Jigsaah
Gold Member
Here's a thought...could The Initiative be...Gods forgive me....TELLING THE TRUUUUUUTH!?
It's always been about how the developers use the power. Put me in front of an Xbox Devkit and guess what, Bob...you're getting 4k 120fps stick figures with poorly drawn circles for boobs just to be inclusive.
XSX and PS5 gives them the power they requested, it's up to them to make it happen in the end.
All this talk about them not showing confidence or walking back their advantage is ridiculous.
It's always been about how the developers use the power. Put me in front of an Xbox Devkit and guess what, Bob...you're getting 4k 120fps stick figures with poorly drawn circles for boobs just to be inclusive.
XSX and PS5 gives them the power they requested, it's up to them to make it happen in the end.
All this talk about them not showing confidence or walking back their advantage is ridiculous.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
IIRC a lot of PC SSDS nowadays have more than two priority levels. We don't know how many priority levels MS has with XvA; people assume two becuse of Cerny's mention of PCs using two priority levels for their SSDs. However if a limited number of priority levels were a hindrance with PC I/O and MS are well aware of that in designing DirectStorage and other parts of XvA, they would obviously increase amount of priority level support.
So I'd expect a minimum of 4, but it could be more than that.
They aren't dreams, it's common sense. I know what side of the fence you play on (so to speak) but I think sometimes you let that get in the way of considering rational approaches if they aren't on your side of the fence, if you catch my drift. That's a shame, too, because you have good insights aside from that.
Dolby settled on 32 sound sources as they figured it was more than sufficient for what the average person would be able to distinguish. Seeing as how they've been at the forefront of a lot of audio standards for decades, I'd trust their input on that. Sony could simply be overkilling with Tempest, we will see. I don't expect most games in practice to require that level of sound sources, honestly.
I'd invite you to consider things more rationally here.
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Shmunter
Member
Is the conclusion the XsX has a dedicated audio processor? Has it been detailed, does it have a name? How much data can it process? Some people are seemingly conflating a DAC as a processor which even the simplest digital device outputting sound has and does nothing but convert a sound bitstream.
PS4 had no sound processor, even highlighted by Cerney how cpu resources for sound are so tiny because there is so little to go around, but PS5 finally changes the game. Why are we assuming XsX has something without MS bothering to sing it’s praises?
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
A DAC can't do even a fraction of the things they've mentioned Project Acoustics is set to perform.
I don't think PS5 is revolutionizing anything here regards having an audio processor; older systems like the MegaDrive had audio processors too that required programming to produce the sound internally with the hardware.
In fact a lot of consoles of that era and earlier had dedicated audio processors, there's nothing inherently special about PS5 having one other than the sheer power of it (which is impressive).
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Dave_at_Home
Member
Are people still on this? Really? Both Series X and PS5 are RDNA 2 based. Which means they both do hardware based ray-tracing. Both are not standard RDNA 2 you will find in the full desktop cards. They do both ray-tracing and typical raster in parallel. Full stop.
Dave_at_Home
Member
This is something far above my head, so someone else here needs to address this, but I doubt they'd put so much time and money into such a robust SSD and I/O solution only to find out...whoops!
Trimesh
Banned
I think taking abut "speed" in this context is also a bit misleading - all the memory runs at the same speed, it's just that one interconnect is wider than the other.
I can certainly see the logic behind it - when you are doing small reads the access time is dominated by overhead, since there is a whole bunch of setup you need to do before you start transferring data. If you take the (arguably degenerate) case where you are only transferring single bytes from random locations in memory then the narrow bus will have no impact at all. If you take the more reasonable case where you are filling a single cache line then the narrower interconnect is slower, but only marginally so.
If you are doing very large transfers then the narrow memory becomes noticeably slower because the setup now only occupies a small part of the whole transaction and the reduced bandwidth during the bulk transfer phase starts to hurt. This is, of course, also the situation where the wider interconnect starts to pay off because the transfer completes quicker.
Although I have no way of knowing, I would assume that someone at MS ran the numbers and concluded that the wider interconnect on the large transfers for graphics would save more bus time than the narrow interconnect on the memory for code and sound would cost - not least because this seems like a very deliberate decision because it's something being built into the hardware that will require significant software support to work as intended.
Shmunter
Member
Thanks will dig into Project Acoustics. Although ‘project’ does not inspire a hardware based approach.
Edit: I see people are referring to it as a hardware block, at least on forums. So maybe sound is offloaded from the cpu after all as you say. What’s interesting Xbox One has hardware too called Shape.
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lepermessiah
Member
Cache scrubbers and that custom geometry engine definitely are the wild cards here that could affect real-world performance over mere spec sheet addition. Not to mention devs saying how easy the system is to program. There are a lot of areas we still don't know yet, but peeps see a bigger number as the be all end all. I suspect series X will yield some more resolution and effects/ray-tracing. Fidelity wise I see Sony taking the crown here with their exclusives. Just my speculation. I am not an authority.
Trimesh
Banned
It depends on what they mean - "audio processor" could be a sub-CPU dedicated to audio, or it could be a dedicated audio DSP. The MegaDrive/Genesis used the first approach (separate Z80 running a dedicated sound program running the audio hardware) - the Super Famicom/SNES did both - it had a dedicated sound CPU and a DSP, although the latter had fixed programming.
PaintTinJr
Member
It isn't just a DAC, like some nothing audio chip from a SNES or PC motherboard, it is a general purpose DSP accelerator - that could be tasked to do things it isn't designed to do, too, just not efficiently as is the same compute characteristics as SPUs had, while still being effective at all manner of workloads the SPUs where.
The only reason they've went for a custom engine is for greater performance/lower power - less die-space used - for solving ambisonic problems in real-time, and by making it a separate chip, it means audio processing is protected from GPU/CPU demands for non-audio tasks swamping all the compute - leaving little compute available and compromising the audio solution.
Edit:
From the impression I got from Cerny in the Road to PS5, the chip will be accessible for audio only at the start - probably API or hypervisor restricted - and as they find better ways to do ambisonics through the generation - maybe on the CPU or in async very cheaply in compute - or it doesn't find popularity, the resource would be made available for more than audio.
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LisaMariaMartin
Banned
Xbox is run by buffoons. A 12 year old could have told you it's a bad idea to come out with that mess of a demo.
I'll still get an XSX but only because I get all those games for 1 dollar through the GP conversion and because third party won't be this inept.
So I've thought about this a little bit more and I think I'm gonna retract agreeing with this.
There are other aspects to this equation. There's the bus that's being used to interface between the memory and the compute units. The memory controller configuration. Also the software stack. Really nothing conclusive can be said until we see games on both systems.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
So we should believe Dolby that requires fake 3D that needs Dolby Atmos license through 7.1 Channel and discredit Sony/Cerny for HRTF-based true 3D through basic 2.0 channel stereo with no fake 3D calculations?