Die Namek Ability
Member
I agree, its the combination of SSD, I/O hardware, compression hardware and the priority levels that allows for the crazy speed not just the SSD.
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Scorn Dev on the Differences Between the PS5 and Series X SSDs: "I feel that it will end up a matter of diminishing returns"
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Die Namek Ability
Member
Haha, well i never claimed reading comprehension was my strong suit. Anyway, i was just trying to highlight that more data is required to be read to make a frame than what is physically stored on a drive.
jakinov
Member
It depends on your work load (I.e. the game) . Not all games or most parts of games will require loading large amounts of data instaneously. A good SSD strikes a better balance but what’s ultimately needed will depend on the game. If your game can wait an extra few seconds and primarily relY on data already in RAM then the benefit goes to Xbox but if you need data right away the advantage goes to PlayStation.
The issue is Scorn dev has an exclusive with Microsoft and their game doesnt look next gen while Epics game engine can be used for everything and Sony worked with Epic to create what they believe is best for game development. Epic is less inclined to support Sony.
Vawn
Banned
This is the first time we have SSDs. There is a huge gap between the PS5 one and the much weaker Xbox one. Diminishing returns is something that happens after several iterations of technology upgrades.
Differences in graphics will see diminishing returns (it already has), as it takes exponentially more power to make even the slightest noticeable difference. The difference between these SSDs is a MUCH bigger factor. But, I get why Xbox has to try and downplay it. Just like they downplay the importance of new AAA games and overstress the importance of being able to play decades old games.
Differences in graphics will see diminishing returns (it already has), as it takes exponentially more power to make even the slightest noticeable difference. The difference between these SSDs is a MUCH bigger factor. But, I get why Xbox has to try and downplay it. Just like they downplay the importance of new AAA games and overstress the importance of being able to play decades old games.
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phil_t98
#SonyToo
Yeah I agree but a lot of the quotes from Epic are easily misread and people assumed that the demo was only possible on PS5
geordiemp
Member
Point 1 is the scorn dev, a kickstarter with no historical pedegree has likely never seen a Ps5, otherwise he would not be blabbing away seeking attention.
Funny, I needed a laugh. Scorn will have NO knowledge of ps5 SSD.
Lets see how well this thread ages in week
.
MS on the topoc of SSD
Funny, I needed a laugh. Scorn will have NO knowledge of ps5 SSD.
Lets see how well this thread ages in week
.MS on the topoc of SSD
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Came across this post from Shifty Geezer on Beyond3D
Bolded is my own emphasis.
So apparently having a plethora of objects on-screen is more an issue of if the hardware can render them in mass duplicate on the CPU and GPU end, rather than needing instances of each object in physical memory. Of course, for completely different models and objects you'd need an instance in physical memory but if you're talking about variants of existing models it would probably be possible to just keep the specific variants as their own instances in memory and then process them with the missing portions at render time for output to the display.
Just thought this was interesting to share because think some people are under the impression the SSDs are enabling hundreds of GBs of unique data to be streamed into the system as if each instance needs a virtualized instance in memory, but in reality if it's just multiple output instances of the same object or even somewhat varied objects you only need a virtualized instance of that object a single time in memory (and preferably main memory).
Bolded is my own emphasis.
So apparently having a plethora of objects on-screen is more an issue of if the hardware can render them in mass duplicate on the CPU and GPU end, rather than needing instances of each object in physical memory. Of course, for completely different models and objects you'd need an instance in physical memory but if you're talking about variants of existing models it would probably be possible to just keep the specific variants as their own instances in memory and then process them with the missing portions at render time for output to the display.
Just thought this was interesting to share because think some people are under the impression the SSDs are enabling hundreds of GBs of unique data to be streamed into the system as if each instance needs a virtualized instance in memory, but in reality if it's just multiple output instances of the same object or even somewhat varied objects you only need a virtualized instance of that object a single time in memory (and preferably main memory).
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Very good
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Yes, only need memory for that first instance and then it becomes CPU/GPU bound. This is how HZD and GoT can render all that foliage. It's really just 1-2 unique instances of a grass blade.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Yes, only need memory for that first instance and then it becomes CPU/GPU bound. This is how HZD and GoT can render all that foliage. It's really just 1-2 unique instances of a grass blade.
KingdomHeartsFan
Member
I'm not expecting anything big. The only times they've shown it off anything unique is moving super fast through a world like in the Spiderman demo or the end of the Unreal Engine V demo. That is never gonna be used in real gameplay, its moving way too fast to control.
Isnt it hilarious the fact that those with biased, pro XSX opinions, they love to suggest How dramatic is the difference between GPUs in favor of Xbox at the same time they bring every argument to downplay the much higher difference between SSD and I/O system?
18% GPU is worlds apart difference
130% SSD with more smart and advance I/0 is close to nothing.
Yeahok.gif lol
18% GPU is worlds apart difference
130% SSD with more smart and advance I/0 is close to nothing.
Yeahok.gif lol
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Very good
Yes, only need memory for that first instance and then it becomes CPU/GPU bound. This is how HZD and GoT can render all that foliage. It's really just 1-2 unique instances of a grass blade.
Yeah I always wondered about that myself, and just goes to show CPU and GPU are (obviously) still doing the vast majority of the legwork with the next-gen consoles.
Think they meant in terms of most PC SSDs, which (according to Cerny) usually have 2 priority levels. None of us know how many priority levels are with MS's solution. However, having six priority levels might just be the solution Sony feels is required for their approach, it may be possible to get similar or even better results with slightly less priority levels depending on what other tech (hardware and software) is in other solutions.
kungfuian
Member
Small developer in bed with platform holder + console war sound bites telling one side what they want to hear = free marketing
At the beginning of each gen there are always a few small studios that try to exploit our hunger for next gen news to draw attention to their mediocre game. This is marketing, nothing more, nothing less
Note- Scorn has plenty of videos on Steam. Looks like a very nice 'inspired' art piece someone later decided to turn into a game/experience. Heavy on the art and low on the game. Def seems like more of an experience than game if you want to put a label on it. Who knows, Might end up interesting, but not seeing anything next gen about it.
Would be cool if they support vr, I'd enjoy walking around those environments in Vive.
At the beginning of each gen there are always a few small studios that try to exploit our hunger for next gen news to draw attention to their mediocre game. This is marketing, nothing more, nothing less
Note- Scorn has plenty of videos on Steam. Looks like a very nice 'inspired' art piece someone later decided to turn into a game/experience. Heavy on the art and low on the game. Def seems like more of an experience than game if you want to put a label on it. Who knows, Might end up interesting, but not seeing anything next gen about it.
Would be cool if they support vr, I'd enjoy walking around those environments in Vive.
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Exodia
Banned
No but you MUST be a youtuber developer with no access to either console. Then everything you say is accepted as the absolute truth and we will reward you feverishly with 500k views and demand you make a part 2 and future videos along as you continue pushing the same talk points that align with our views.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
End of the day it’s down to how much data is used and it still has to go through the GPU on both sides
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
I Love Rock 'n' Roll
Member
It's like saying this between a 4800 vs 10000 HD on a same hardware. Just give it a try.
GetemMa
Member
The console warring on this site is relentless.
I don't think an SSD, including the far out futuristic PS5 SSD, will do terribly much more for the vast majority of games than uber fast loading times. Multi platform developers have many more tech considerations than Sony first party.
For the dozen or so exclusives that Sony puts out, they may be able to do a few tricks make their games extra special. I suspect only a handful of their dev studios will be able to do this though and we won't see something that does this for years.
It's up to you if you think that equates to diminishing returns. I think this is a marketing bullet point that people are clinging to because they haven't seen anything else. It's the games that matter here, SSD won't make a game good or not.
I don't think an SSD, including the far out futuristic PS5 SSD, will do terribly much more for the vast majority of games than uber fast loading times. Multi platform developers have many more tech considerations than Sony first party.
For the dozen or so exclusives that Sony puts out, they may be able to do a few tricks make their games extra special. I suspect only a handful of their dev studios will be able to do this though and we won't see something that does this for years.
It's up to you if you think that equates to diminishing returns. I think this is a marketing bullet point that people are clinging to because they haven't seen anything else. It's the games that matter here, SSD won't make a game good or not.
Exodia
Banned
That's a credit to the GPU not the ssd. Seriously you ppl...
I bet HZD2 characters wont even look better than HB2 reveal. But it won't stop you from claiming it does.
The Hamburglar
Banned
Nice unbiased opinion there.
Phil might as well have said that
Phil might as well have said that
yurinka
Member
Not only any engine: any game will read the data at ~8-9GB/s from the PS5 SSD. Not 5.5GBs.
Because all the data in the SSD it's compressed and it gets decompressed in realtime, copying to the RAM ~8-9GB/s (and up to 22GB/s is particularly well compressed, according to Cerny but I assume this may be a theorical only number) of data. 5.5GB/s is the raw speed before decompression is applied.
Yes, in examples like that pile of bodies that are multiple instances of the same object, in the memory there is only 1 body model/textures/shaders/whatever all these bodies share. Then for each distance, each body, there are the things that make them diffrent, which are mostly only a few numbers. In that case, mostly only the rotation and position coordinates. In a real game they'd a few more numbers like their health, id number of the current animation and frame, etc.
All these numbers that are repeated for each instance take a very tiny amount of memory. The model/animations/sounds/etc (specially the textures) are only once in memory need comparatively a bigger amount of memory, and this is why in games they tend to repeat stuff.
Then for each time you draw something, all this data is taken from the memory to place everything needed in what the camera will be seeing in the GPU, and to optimize the work done by the GPU, you do some things to cull/remove the polygons of these objects that aren't drawn because they are aren't seen by the camera at that moment.
The thing is, in a traditional case with previous technology, it's the programmer who makes that culling. In these new consoles (and I assume RDNA 2.0 PC GPUs too) there's specific hardware that is able to make different things like that culling for when drawing, which means there's more room and horsepower there to do other things. I assume that the console also uses that same hardware to reduce the detail of the model to the maximum detail that the native resolution shows (to reduce the triangles that are smaller than pixels).
In addition to that, I think that these original massive assets shown in the demo aren't stored in their original amount of detail in the console SSD and disk. I assume that when UE5 exports to the console, it stores there the maximum detail that it calculated that the console will be able to show at the target resolution and FPS considering the hardware that the console has when getting as close as possible to each object. With the idea of reducing the game install size and optimize memory space, reduce GPU work optimizing and drawing, etc.
And well, I think none of these things will be exclusive to UE5. I think the other next gen engines -specially the 1st party ones- will do very similar, or sometimes even better, for their next gen iterations.
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bumleforce
Member
so many people doughting this developer but I bet if it was a developer talking about about ps5 being better than xbox they would praise it. Stop the Fanboy stuff. Lets let the games do the talking. We have seen a bunch of AA games and hellblade for xbox and godfall from sony. Then we have the Sony showcase in a few days then the xbox one in july. Good times ahead but time to let the games speak. We are less than 6 months from launch assuming its november
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Appreciate the logical and well crafted post. You have summed up exactly what anyone who isn't wearing colored glasses already understands. As for the warriors, it's really not worth the effort.
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Exodia
Banned
Only possible due to PS5's SSD
oh wait this was a very old outdated UE4 on PC 2 years ago.
Guys the GPU is what renders the pixels. Not the SSD.
The SSD doesn't replace the GPU.
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SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
It's almost like the GPU is the part of a system that actually does the rendering and not the SSD.
I suspect that if the PS5 had a fan that ran twice as fast than the one on Series X that you'd climb aboard that as a defining feature.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
This is a really bad dumbed down way of looking at things. The GPU renders the scene so who needs fast VRAM? The CPU does the physics so who needs fast RAM? SSD doesn't replace the GPU but it feeds it with data and doing that fast is absolutely essential.
martino
Member
doing it faster than 100mb has become essential.
do it at 5.5GB/s is not essential though or ms is doomed
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Why 100mb though?
What is the essential speed you need do you think?
Also keep in mind that any stated bandwidth would be used for downloading in the background, a buffer for streaming your gameplay, recording, etc too. It will never be the whole bandwidth just for the game.
I actually think the thing that won't be improved on new AAA games is the load time. The thing about higher and higher res textures is that they take up a lot of space. Developers will just maintain the load times and use some more costly compression.
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martino
Member
because it is a limit we know dev are struggling with.
I return you the second question ? why do you think 5.5 gb/s is ESSENTIAL (don't forget definition of the word you used)
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what VRAM speed is essential? I said feeding the GPU fast is essential. That is true.
Didn't mention if the bandwidth limit is being reached. Who knows it may well be. Fast also means latency reading from the SSD which is a hell of a lot (lower) faster now than HDD. That is more critical in terms of what SSD offers to graphics. My point is that simply saying
Is beyond an oversimplification. It is an essential component to rendering a dynamic scene.
Rikkori
Member
Said it from the beginning, it doesn't matter how fast your SSD is, what matters is how fast do you need it to be. In fact, it's the same issue they'll run into with CPU, and why all the ppl proclaiming 8c/16t is gonna be minimum requirements for PC next-gen are just people completely ignorant of game programming. Utilising more GPU grunt is easy, as you can always push more frames or increase resolution, and for the latter that's something you can always do & don't have design around - not the case with storage & CPU.
Console warriors ignore context though, so we see the typical responses.
And that's not even getting into the more practical realities of games looking to be increasingly multiplatform and needing to scale down a lot also (Switch, mobiles, tablets etc).
Game companies are not looking to design games to fully utilise the hardware, they're looking to fully utilise the hardware for the game they design. There's an important distinction there. That's why not even all Sony studios will fully utilise the PS5's SSD speeds.
Make no mistake, PS4 Pro vs Xbox One X is not gonna see a repeat. You'll have almost identical looking and feeling games from both PS5 & XSX. The differences are just too small to be apparent.
Console warriors ignore context though, so we see the typical responses.
And that's not even getting into the more practical realities of games looking to be increasingly multiplatform and needing to scale down a lot also (Switch, mobiles, tablets etc).
Game companies are not looking to design games to fully utilise the hardware, they're looking to fully utilise the hardware for the game they design. There's an important distinction there. That's why not even all Sony studios will fully utilise the PS5's SSD speeds.
Make no mistake, PS4 Pro vs Xbox One X is not gonna see a repeat. You'll have almost identical looking and feeling games from both PS5 & XSX. The differences are just too small to be apparent.
martino
Member
textures is where Xsx will supposedly excel with BCPack compression
this video about advanced texture compression from google is good example of what MS strategy could be
DXT1 texture is 7MB
DXT1 + zlib is 4.8 MB here replace with kraken you will be at 4MB.
specific texture compression go down to 2.46. (it's so compressed zlib become useless)
it's an over 50% advantage in this example
So let's wait to see what BCPack is and how ms use it.
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IncognitoPanda
Member
Yes this is true, but this goes for both sides to an extent
Yeah but you're talking about the size here, not the time it takes to uncompress the assets or create something procedurally. Higher compression usually means more time/computing power uncompressing it. We will definitely get better game sizes. We have better compression and especially as we don't need to duplicate things to overcome seek speeds.
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martino
Member
We know nothing about it but you already know the decompression block can't do it fast enough ?
Show us your insider data please.
Shmunter
Member
As you put it, the advantage e.g. PS5 speed ssd has in such a particular scene is more variety of bodies as opposed to repetition. Can be applied to more varied environments, cars in a traffic jam etc. The faster the ability to stream, the less need to buffer off screen assets, leaving more ram for assets to be placed into the visible scene.
But this also extends to higher quality lods due to the ability to swap assets from lower to higher and vice versa. Zoom in on a character and it doesn’t matter if that single character model is taking up all the vram, it can be flushed out and replaced seamlessly with gameplay assets as the camera pulls away etc. The faster you can feed new data, the more options there are for enhancing the scene visually.
Important to not conflate scene complexity with asset variety. 2 different cars onscreen doesn’t mean twice the polygons of the same car pasted twice.
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SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Comparing GDDR6 memory with speeds in excess of 400 gb/s and latency measured in nano seconds to an SSD with 5.5 gb/s and latency measured in milliseconds...
Jimmyisback
Banned
He also said Dolby atmos only supports 32 sources when it actually supports hundreds of them. Trying to bolster tempest audio by not being truthful.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Yeah...5.5GB vs hundreds of GB/s that surely makes difference. SSD will not replace VRAM nor RAM. We know how GPU with shared memory of PC RAM runs...
eastwood333
Banned
Point 1 is the scorn dev, a kickstarter with no historical pedegree has likely never seen a Ps5, otherwise he would not be blabbing away seeking attention.
Funny, I needed a laugh. Scorn will have NO knowledge of ps5 SSD.
Lets see how well this thread ages in week
MS on the topoc of SSD
I hope you're factoring in also that MS has Hellblade 2, The Initiatives new game, Playgrounds new AAA RPG to show off in July are as far as I know, none of which are cross gen.
And it's really not far to compare a independent AA studio to 1st party studios with significantly more manpower and budget.
At least compare Playground, the Initiative,Ninja Theory to the sony 1st party
martino
Member
see one the post above.
there is an unknown. if you keep same scene complexity but with 2-x times more different assets.
where is the limit in this case ?
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Well sure, obviously they need to be fastly transported into memory pool, which also is where PS5 is weaker than XSX. Those graphics which you seen on screen must be kept into fast memory pool, because those data must fly fast. Obviously streaming assets with 5.5 GB/s is better than with 2.4GB/s that's undeniable, but it simply cannot serve as VRAM/RAM, because for that is still way too slow, with higher latency. Not the mention RAM/VRAM is parallel, so data can be transported from any chip directly, because all of them are wired (wel not exactly, but for this example it could work), but SSD is in serial mode, which means it has to have controller and you get some unneeded latency and that matters in these sort of applications.
geordiemp
Member
Well if those 2 or 3 games are genuinely leveraging SSD assets (quality) and Zen 2 (Game scope) that is a good thing, they should look better and be true next gen instead of tarted up cross gen games.
Cross gen games on next gen consoles will be like taking a pig and applying fancy make up
Look foward to them.
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martino
Member
i see but the more assets you can load quickly into memory the less your asset library need to have unused ones.
i spend some time to look how you do streaming in ue, unity for educational purposed
the smaller your chunks are the more it seems to required work to me
the easiest will always be able to load big chunk in memory if you can.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
I agree, but that larger chunk is loaded into memory pool, which is deciding factor, about how games would run. Best it would be if you can load whole unpacked game into RAM, but that don't happening. It could, but price would be somewhere else...
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