Support NeoGAF

[Markoman]

Not a PC guy at all... How powerful (or not) of a machine can you build for $1000?

haven't checked prices, but I assume gtx1070+i5/i7+16gb+ssd is easily possible

 

[Jessie.Bristol]

Nice, can't wait to see games running on it at E3. Still interested to see how the "Evolved Jaguar" CPU holds up in games. Hopefully it pushes more devs to DX12 on Xbox One if it really does cut CPU requirements in half with DX12 being baked into the hardware this time around. With the way the hardware render is shown, looks like it'll be a pretty slim console similar to the Xbox One S.

 

[Kuro]

Well, according to one financial analyst who covers Sony, PS5 will launch in the second half of 2018 with performance of at least 10 teraflops.

http://blogs.barrons.com/asiastocks/2017/03/05/how-sony-can-double-its-profit-this-year/

That sounds ridiculous. I would expect end of 2019 at the earliest.

 

[Killer Queen]

Well, according to one financial analyst who covers Sony, PS5 will launch in the second half of 2018 with performance of at least 10 teraflops.

http://blogs.barrons.com/asiastocks/2017/03/05/how-sony-can-double-its-profit-this-year/

theres absolutely no way, in any reality.

 

[yankeehater]

https://twitter.com/majornelson/status/850088010368430080

Albert Penello talking to Major Nelson tomorrow on his podcast

Can't fucking wait.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Well, according to one financial analyst who covers Sony, PS5 will launch in the second half of 2018 with performance of at least 10 teraflops.

http://blogs.barrons.com/asiastocks/2017/03/05/how-sony-can-double-its-profit-this-year/

Ain't happening.

 

[nOoblet16]

I completely agree but let's give them a chance, E3 is only 2 months away.

It's not that, any Xbox exclusive will also be on PC so if you have a PC like he does then there's no point for a Scorpio.

 

[DasPenguin]

Console generations are long these days and a mid-gen refresh is needed to keep up with computers. Sure MS needs more first party output but OG Xbone wouldn't cut it anymore in a few years.

Why is it needed? The mass market will consist of players who own either the PS4 Slim or the XBox S. Scorpio and Pro will sell a lot less. I'm a bit confused why both console makers even went to all this trouble. Maybe it helps them develop a console for the next generation or something, I don't know. As long as we are sticking to the same games as the baseline model, seems like overkill to me. Great for the enthusiasts of course, but just thinking are the costs really worth it.

 

[shandy706]

Well, according to one financial analyst who covers Sony, PS5 will launch in the second half of 2018 with performance of at least 10 teraflops.

That would be completely unacceptable.

Just wait till 2020 and hit 15TF+ at least...geeze.

 

[Averon]

The PS5 ain't happening until AMD and Global Foundries have 7nm APU production up and running.

 

[wumster3000]

Well, according to one financial analyst who covers Sony, PS5 will launch in the second half of 2018 with performance of at least 10 teraflops.

http://blogs.barrons.com/asiastocks/2017/03/05/how-sony-can-double-its-profit-this-year/

Not happening.

 

[ResoRai]

This video mentions some things that I don't think I've seen yet.

https://youtu.be/tqvc8M6hpbI?t=833

13 minutes in mentions

*the consoles full power is available in old games
*3 GB is used as RAMdisk(SSD like speeds maybe) in older games for quick loading

Hadn't watched this one yet and only watched a bit, but it's pretty neat the way he refers to Scorpio's approach in hardware being similar to that of the 360. Can't wait for more on the system.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Well, according to one financial analyst who covers Sony, PS5 will launch in the second half of 2018 with performance of at least 10 teraflops.

http://blogs.barrons.com/asiastocks/2017/03/05/how-sony-can-double-its-profit-this-year/

There is absolutely zero chance of this happening.

My personal opinion is that we won't see PS5 until 2020, to be honest. Though 2019 is certainly not out of the question.

2018 is.

 

[MCD]

They need to announce list of games that will be patched on day one.

 

[Nostremitus]

People are putting a lot of stock into the custom Jaguar as if it's suddenly not Jaguar anymore. Don't forget, PS4 Pro has a custom Jaguar too. Don't expect better than Jaguar performance.

 

[Munki]

haven't checked prices, but I assume gtx1070+i5/i7+16gb+ssd is easily possible

Again, pardon my ignorance but is that a good thing?

 

[Cerbero]

If you have already have a decent intel quad core you're better off just by buying a rx480/580, it's also a cheaper option

For the console crowd: i hope this won't be more than 450€, Sony will probably undercut them by 100€ for Christmas

 

[Papacheeks]

There is a reason why PS4 Pro is also doing Jaguar. 100% code compatibility. Unlike PC games, XBO and PS4 games are not written for a high level OS like Windows for variety of CPUs. Their games are written intimately close to how the CPU cores are actually constructed. Each thread is coded for the clockspeed and capabilities of the CPU architecture, which is Jaguar. Ryzen is very different architecture. Using code that expects Jaguar CPU on Ryzen will break that game.



PS5 maybe. NextBox I'm not sure. Depend if they do a new and or next gen.

But can't it be written on a OS, or game level to scale? I mean if they can take a game in less than a year liek last of us from power pc architecture and get it running easily on the same engine with PS4 dev kit doesn't that say it can be done? They made the changes to their engine for it to work. They didn't remake the game, they scaled it within their engine to take advantage of the bigger fill fate, gpu speed.

I mean if the Sony engineers ICE TEAM make the correct code changes and send them out to devkits and developers make the changes iwthin their code it can be done. You don't think the next xbox gen won;t be able to run games from xbox one?

I think it will. Without emulating.

 

[Syrus]

Exactly.

Which is why multiplatform games won't have a disparity other than [possibly] framerate.

Disagree , the scorpio has much more memory bandwidth and stronger GPU and stronger CPU and better technology.

It could definently be a decent difference

 

[Bsigg12]

I wonder what the sizes of games will be like and how they'll go about distributing 4K textures. Games like Gears 4 is already fucking massive on PC.

 

[Munki]

Hadn't watched this one yet and only watched a bit, but it's pretty neat the way he refers to Scorpio's approach in hardware being similar to that of the 360. Can't wait for more on the system.

It's a good watch. It does really seem like MS as a whole was focused on putting together a solid product in Scorpio.

 

[anothertech]

Not at all. As I've said all along, that was just more high hopes, wanting Microsoft to go balls to the wall, but if what I'm reading pans out, there was never any need with the expertise they can bring to bear to go so far in the first place.

Well my friend, Chobel and I made that bet months ago with you and Leeh, so I have saved this for you:

I may have a better quality one at later date if you want. I'll pm you details.

I'm going to let Chobel take care of Leeh's unless he wants me to do it as well. It was a fun bet. Lets do it again soon

 

[G-DannY]

They need to announce list of games that will be patched on day one.

no patches needed at all

 

[Fisty]

There is absolutely zero chance of this happening.

My personal opinion is that we won't see PS5 until 2020, to be honest. Though 2019 is certainly not out of the question.

2018 is.

Yeah 2019 gives them time for Ryzen to mature and drop in cost. I think a 3 year clip is good for consoles, with full gen refresh every 6.

I also think indies will be making PS4 games for the next 10 years though, if backwards compatibility is standard (it should be). That will be a huge base to work with

 

[FlutterPuffs]

People are putting a lot of stock into the custom Jaguar as if it's suddenly not Jaguar anymore. Don't forget, PS4 Pro has a custom Jaguar too. Don't expect better than Jaguar performance.

It doesnt. Just higher clockwise.

Its secret sauce was more on the custom GPU and 2GB ram for 4k or app swapping.

 

[Shogmaster]

But can't it be written on a OS, or game level to scale? I mean if they can take a game in less than a year liek last of us from power pc architecture and get it running easily on the same engine with PS4 dev kit doesn't that say it can be done? They made the changes to their engine for it to work. They didn't remake the game, they scaled it within their engine to take advantage of the bigger fill fate, gpu speed.

You keep missing the point which is to run existing XBO games without altering the code one bit.

 

[Zedox]

People are putting a lot of stock into the custom Jaguar as if it's suddenly not Jaguar anymore. Don't forget, PS4 Pro has a custom Jaguar too. Don't expect better than Jaguar performance.

It seems you are downplaying that it's still a powerful machine as it's not as straightforward as PS4P's chip. Just because two things have similarities, doesn't mean that their differences don't make them stand apart. It doesn't really matter either way as it's just a more powerful machine than anything else out right now. We'll see what it can do later on.

 

[WadeitOut]

People are putting a lot of stock into the custom Jaguar as if it's suddenly not Jaguar anymore. Don't forget, PS4 Pro has a custom Jaguar too. Don't expect better than Jaguar performance.

These games are developed to be more GPU intensive than typical PC games.

 

[EagleEyes]

People are putting a lot of stock into the custom Jaguar as if it's suddenly not Jaguar anymore. Don't forget, PS4 Pro has a custom Jaguar too. Don't expect better than Jaguar performance.

Well I was told that Sony had basically maxed out the jaguar at 2.1 GHz last year so how did Microsoft get even more out of it? Better engineers? More customization? Wizardry?

 

[Cyriades]

People are putting a lot of stock into the custom Jaguar as if it's suddenly not Jaguar anymore. Don't forget, PS4 Pro has a custom Jaguar too. Don't expect better than Jaguar performance.

The Jaguar in Xbox One S and PS4 PRO are variances too.

 

[Yawnny]

theres absolutely no way, in any reality.

I love the hyperbole, as if anyone truly knows what's going to happen.

 

[Papacheeks]

You keep missing the point which is to run existing XBO games without altering the code one bit.

I get that but, then that handicaps future console hardware even if it's within same architecture. I still think they will make a Ryzen style cpu that will run 2.5-3.0ghz with 8 cores.

 

[Fisty]

Well I was told that Sony had basically maxed out the jaguar at 2.1 GHz last year so how did Microsoft get even more out of it? Better engineers? More customization? Wizardry?

Water-cooling, apparently. Scorpio to also toast bread confirmed

 

[Nephtes]

They need to announce list of games that will be patched on day one.

^ this

If Dark Souls 3 isn't on the list... I don't know that I'm buying a Scorpio on day one...

 

[black070]

I wonder what Oblivion via BC will look like on the Scorpio, I haven't been able to get enough of that game.

 

[Markoman]

Again, pardon my ignorance but is that a good thing?

You could see Scorpio+Pro as a diminishing returns thing. Same with the PC build I've mentioned. But yes, every component I've listed is stronger than what you get with Scopio.
An I5 destroys the Jaguar, you won't get a SSD in Scorpio and so on....you get what you pay for.

See, the thing is with PCs. I've bought a new PC last year. My GPU (970) is pretty much outdated now, but if I want to keep up I can spend the same amount of money that Scorpio will cost, buy an 1070/1080 and I'm still ahead. That's it.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Well I was told that Sony had basically maxed out the jaguar at 2.1 GHz last year so how did Microsoft get even more out of it? Better engineers? More customization? Wizardry?

They duct taped a couple of Gamecubes to the CPU.

 

[shandy706]

I wonder what Oblivion via BC will look like on the Scorpio, I haven't been able to get enough of that game.

16x AF baby...crispy

 

[black070]

16x AF baby...crispy

Mmm.

 

[metareferential]

They need to announce list of games that will be patched on day one.

You can bet on first parties and major sellers to be in for day one.

As long as they have CoD, Fifa, Madden, Halo, Battlefield, Forza and such lined up, they're good to go.

 

[Skux]

The PS5 ain't happening until AMD and Global Foundries have 7nm APU production up and running.

Since when does a game console use the latest technology? Even Scorpio is running on a 2Ghz CPU and mechanical storage.

 

[Wereroku]

Well I was told that Sony had basically maxed out the jaguar at 2.1 GHz last year so how did Microsoft get even more out of it? Better engineers? More customization? Wizardry?

The due shrink is giving them a bit more overhead. Also the cooling sounds a bit more efficient. However it's going to be a hot system.

 

[Shogmaster]

I get that but, then that handicaps future console hardware even if it's within same architecture. I still think they will make a Ryzen style cpu that will run 2.5-3.0ghz with 8 cores.

I really have no clue what MS should do after Scorpio. Cerny obviously want a claen slate restart for PS5. No backward compatibility out of the box. Will MS do that as well? Or will they try to make it a more seemless, gen less transition like from XBO to Scorpio?

I think as long as they use X86, they can do BC via minimum effort emulation. By the time MS needs to do the next iteration of XBox, mobile Zen should be cheap enough to cram into a SoC. Maybe by then, a quad core Zen can do 8 core Jag emu easily enough with dual threading per core.

In any case, Zen for Scorpio is out of reach cost wise since 100% code compatibility with XBO is a requirement.

 

[TheExodu5]

There is a reason why PS4 Pro is also doing Jaguar. 100% code compatibility. Unlike PC games, XBO and PS4 games are not written for a high level OS like Windows for variety of CPUs. Their games are written intimately close to how the CPU cores are actually constructed. Each thread is coded for the clockspeed and capabilities of the CPU architecture, which is Jaguar. Ryzen is very different architecture. Using code that expects Jaguar CPU on Ryzen will break that game.

Code is not written for a specific cpu...it's written for an instruction set, which in this case is x86. The x86 instruction set does evolve over time (e.g. addition of SSE), but should not devolve. Ryzen should support the entirety of the Jaguar instruction set.

If Rizen performs all instructions quicker than Jaguar, and the code isn't set up to fail in race conditions (in case of varying times to perform instructions), then I see no reason why a more modern x86 CPU could not replace an old one.

The decision to use Jaguar is an economic one, not a technical one.

 

[Tarnpanzer]

Mmm.

Still SubHD I guess.

 

[Papacheeks]

I really have no clue what MS should do after Scorpio. Cerny obviously want a claen slate restart for PS5. No backward compatibility out of the box. Will MS do that as well? Or will they try to make it a more seemless, gen less transition like from XBO to Scorpio?

I think as long as they use X86, they can do BC via minimum effort emulation. By the time MS needs to do the next iteration of XBox, mobile Zen should be cheap enough to cram into a SoC. Maybe by then, a quad core Zen can do 8 core Jag emu easily enough with dual threading per core.

I think that's what sony will do in all honesty especially with downloadible titles. I think you will see in both xbox and sony that backwards compatibility will be in emulation for base PS4 games, and xbox games, if you want native 4k and up you have to rebuy your game on Next box and PS5.

It's going to be interesting that's for sure and I feel in about 2 years we will hear about it.

 

[Shogmaster]

Code is not written for a specific cpu...it's written for an instruction set, which in this case is x86. The x86 instruction set does evolve over time (e.g. addition of SSE), but should not devolve. Ryzen should support the entirety of the Jaguar instruction set.

If Rizen performs all instructions quicker than Jaguar, and the code isn't set up to fail in race conditions (in case of varying times to perform instructions), then I see no reason why a more modern x86 CPU could not replace an old one.

The decision to use Jaguar is an economic one, not a technical one.

It is written for more than the X86 instructional set. Lot of the games are written to maximize the Jaguar's architecture in effort to maximize performance. You try to run XBO code on Ryzen, you WILL break a bunch of games, if not all or majority.

 

[TheExodu5]

I think as long as they use X86, they can do BC via minimum effort emulation. By the time MS needs to do the next iteration of XBox, mobile Zen should be cheap enough to cram into a SoC. Maybe by then, a quad core Zen can do 8 core Jag emu easily enough with dual threading per core.

You don't emulate an x86 CPU with an x86 CPU...there's zero reason a future Xbox couldn't be designed to be fully backwards compatible.

 

[-hadouken]

no patches needed at all

That's fine and all if you're happy with games like BF4 running in their original 720P.

Well I was told that Sony had basically maxed out the jaguar at 2.1 GHz last year so how did Microsoft get even more out of it? Better engineers? More customization? Wizardry?

Nah, that would be the far superior cooling solution.

 

[Neuromancer]

I'm trying to catch up. Did DF or MS say anything about how VRs going to be?