kame-sennin
Member
There are links in that paragraph if you got to the original article. I wouldn't know either way.
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Circumcision.. What do Evolutionary Biologists/Naturalists/Darwinists think?
- Thread starter Polioliolio
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There are links in that paragraph if you got to the original article. I wouldn't know either way.
I was responding to a daft question about FGM. I have not once tried to advocate for or against circumcision in this thread. I have my views and respect other peoples' right to have theirs.
I'm not trying to discredit that particular article, but I'm sure I could find any number of other articles to support any given POV, either for or against, so I prefer to take my guidance from my country's health service as an objective source of the 'facts' rather than an individual's blog post. Again, that's without commenting one way or the other on the article itself.
ReplacementPelican
Member
Holy shit does America need to get a grip.
Look, there's no reason to do this and the whole 'what about women?' angle is such bullshit. There's no reason to have this done, the only reason American women seem to be weird about it is they haven't been exposed to it like, well, seemingly the rest of North America and Europe. The number has been dropping for years so will still be the norm anyway.
Also, you're doing it because some bellend from the early 1900s didn't want you to masturbate. He also suggested applying phenol to a woman's clitois.
Honest to God there is no reason to do this, whatever the extent of damage you want to argue it doesn't excuse that you're doing something for a stupid reason. End of. I don't even understand the idea that people would 'decide to have it done later'. Why? Its crazy how otherwise sensible people seem to crumble when it comes to 'tradition'.
Circumcised at birth like so many American boys. Thankfully, they did a fine job on me and I'm fine with how it turned out, but horror stories about botched circumcisions are pretty scary. That would forever alter your son's life in a negative way, so that's another thing to weight when deciding.
Personally I don't think that anyone, parent or otherwise, should be able to decide for a child rather they should or shouldn't be circumcised. I know a lot of guys, particularly since i'm a part of the LGBTQ+ community (where this certainly gets talked about a lot), that would prefer one way or the other, but you remove the person's choice by deciding for them. I say... just don't do it.
If as the child ages it becomes clear they need the procedure because of something like phimosis then that's different. Basically... just wait it out.
Personally I don't think that anyone, parent or otherwise, should be able to decide for a child rather they should or shouldn't be circumcised. I know a lot of guys, particularly since i'm a part of the LGBTQ+ community (where this certainly gets talked about a lot), that would prefer one way or the other, but you remove the person's choice by deciding for them. I say... just don't do it.
If as the child ages it becomes clear they need the procedure because of something like phimosis then that's different. Basically... just wait it out.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Cut it. Also cut one of his fingers just to be sure.
Anecdotal evidence!
If this is true, it won't be the case that people go "I have PTSD because of my circumsised Penis", it just means that, when controlled for other factors, you have a higher probability of suffering from these mental health issues if circumsised than someone who is uncircumcised.
Your rebuttal is akin to saying, "I know people who smoke who are perfectly old and healthy today!"
I'm not saying the article is correct by the way, just a better counter-argument is required. Liking reading the papers and finding a flaw in their methodology or finding that parts of the article are made up.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
It is a cruel and stupid mutilation. A kid cannot give consent either, I would equate this to sexual assault.
Lol
Bingo. Or "my unvaccinated child hasn't got measles".
And yeah, since anecdotal evidence is now in play, even my mother who got me circumcised tells the story that I screamed a tortured scream she had never heard before or since and that I turned whiter than the hospital bed sheet. She bawled her eyes out afterwards.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Here is what the AAP thinks about circumcision.
And keep in mind that a lot of those paediatricians have a vested financial interest in the procedure existing. So if they by and large aren't recommending it, it is really food for thought.
Supporting this is the fact that in most public health systems in western countries where the doctors are more removed from the direct financial benefits of performing circumcisions, you will struggle to find a doctor who will do it at all. They're more likely to look at you in disgust.
Fallout-NL
Member
My mother told me that one of my uncles once said he wasn't happy with being circumcised because the lack of protection (from the skin that's usually there) around the tip led to toughening of the skin (akin to calluses?) which made the entire area less sensitive, which yeah, seems like a bummer.
I'm not circumcised though so I'm no expert.
I'm not circumcised though so I'm no expert.
To call that report controversial would be understatement, hell were raised by doctors outside US
Parents make all sorts of choices for us before we're able to make our own.
If you want to go down the rabbit hole of parents making bodily, and general well-being choices for their babies; you can take it as far as conception, and I think we can all agree none of us chose to be born. The process of childbirth is not a pleasant experience, but we all go through it against our will. I'm sure some babies given the choice might actually prefer to stay in the womb forever. And then of course we're subjected to life itself for years and years, which some of us might also one day come to regret.
But no, if you read this thread then you will soon discover it's actually circumcision that is the great selfish evil our parents commit on us - that barbaric and traumatic act performed in modern hospitals by professionals that none of us ever have recollection of - much like childbirth itself
If you want to go down the rabbit hole of parents making bodily, and general well-being choices for their babies; you can take it as far as conception, and I think we can all agree none of us chose to be born. The process of childbirth is not a pleasant experience, but we all go through it against our will. I'm sure some babies given the choice might actually prefer to stay in the womb forever. And then of course we're subjected to life itself for years and years, which some of us might also one day come to regret.
But no, if you read this thread then you will soon discover it's actually circumcision that is the great selfish evil our parents commit on us - that barbaric and traumatic act performed in modern hospitals by professionals that none of us ever have recollection of - much like childbirth itself
miller.skippins
Banned
the same reason why America still uses Imperial while the rest of the world (and their own scientific community) has moved on to metric.
No one knows.
This is profoundly absurd. Well done.
I suspect my response will be kinder than what is to come. Enjoy.
Puritanical crazies.
Let's not forget Kellogg with this choice quote for all to see on Wikipedia:
"The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases."
miller.skippins
Banned
or absurdly profound. I don't know. I can't tell the difference.
Stilton Disco
Member
It's genital mutilation, pure and simple, and there's no reason for it unless you've got a serious medical condition that requires amputation and every other treatment has failed.
The fact that it's so common in the US without even the inherent irrationality of religious dogma is just weird and seriously fucked up.
The fact that it's so common in the US without even the inherent irrationality of religious dogma is just weird and seriously fucked up.
Your opinion and anecdotes as an internet denizen is a really rigorous statistical sample size that I bet is sturdy enough to dismiss published research.
Lotion/lube. It's why I never understood the masturbation jokes in Hollywood movies growing up because uncircumcised men don't need any lube to masturbate because we have foreskins. In fact, getting lotion trapped under your foreskin is probably grounds for a yeast infection.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
All of the talk about weird sexual encounters... Get out of your country for once, Jesus.
What happens if you get the dick caught in your zipper? There is no expendable skin to protect it...
I don't want to imagine the pain from constant rubbing against rough garments, your own hands, female pubes when grinding...
What happens if you get the dick caught in your zipper? There is no expendable skin to protect it...
Gravy Boat
Member
If you're going to chop of some of your kids dick then you might as well chop their ear lobes off too. Just get rid of everything that flops.
The circumcised penis doesn't really hurt after so many years of desensitization. My bf says he doesn't feel anything painful in his underwear or when he touches it.
It's just a weird unnecessary procedure, it's as simple as that.
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
So if you don't remember it when you're grown up, parents can do absolutely anything to their child right? Good to know...
At least I hope it comes from a place of shame.
Interesting read on the topic
https://matthewtontonoz.com/2015/01/05/why-is-circumcision-so-popular-in-america/amp/
https://matthewtontonoz.com/2015/01/05/why-is-circumcision-so-popular-in-america/amp/
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
And the poor bloke is also feeling less than he could every time you guys have sex for the same reason. The foreskin moving about is also super, super pleasant. (In some positions it sort of snaps about and is painful when having sex without a condom though)
Speaking of condoms, when wearing one the foreskin has to be retracted and doesn't move, so I'd equate wearing a condom with being circumcised for me. The difference is not dramatic, but surely noticeable.
Red Liquorice
Member
This is cute, but why give religion a free pass, it's just as meaningless and cruel for "religious reasons" (which are what exactly?) just like FGM.
Also pre-emptively removing tonsils, appendix etc.Hoo-doo said:
Think of all the Potential medical benefits, and also sparing those poor adults the pain of going through appendicitis and all its complications. Not to mention avoiding most scar tissue - if noone had abdominal scars from such surgeries, it would be super awkward to have one done in adult life and reveal it during sex, so we should all strive to avoid that right?
On a related note - I can imagine certain organizations (especially religious) can't wait to get their hands on gene-manipulation laws so they can start breeding their perfect societies that are cleanly separated from all others...
HiredN00bs
Member
I fucking object to it. We had a medically unnecessary surgery for primarily cultural and cosmetic reasons performed on us as infants, something that significantly altered our most sensitive sexual organ. Just because we've lived our whole lives with the result and have become normalized to it does not change the fact that it is morally reprehensible.
Even lab rats must be properly anaesthetized before any procedure for experimental research or you are not ethically allowed to do it in most countries. That alone should give anyone pause.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I like being circumcised.
WTF is wrong with you? People should just get a pass for whatever they do, if the reason for those actions are religious? Come on, dude.
There are good ideas in religious and there are stupid ideas in religion, and there's nothing wrong with pointing those out. If your religion tells you that you should chop off a piece of your baby's dick, then that's a really fucking stupid idea.
Straight Edge
Member
Me too.
Lucky Seven
Banned
With all the convincing and differing opinions, I don't know who to believe. Conflict of the century.
Me too. Like, I can't see any downside. I don't have strong feelings about it either way, though, I don't care if people want it done on their children or not. It wasn't for religious reasons in my case, fwiw.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yuuup, this always threw me off as well.
I was talking about my case, lol. I'm not in pain, I'm not dead, and sex is good. So at the very least, if it's done correctly, it doesn't seem like a huge problem to me. I repeat, though, I don't have strong feelings about it and everyone should strive to avoid any unnecessary surgeries, since the risk is never 0%.
Abilidebob
Member
And that's completely fine. People aren't saying you should feel ashamed of it or anything. Just that perpetuating the procedure just for cultural reasons is really damn sad.
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