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Circumcision.. What do Evolutionary Biologists/Naturalists/Darwinists think?

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Yeah this thread made me ask my girl "What if I had an uncircumcised dick?", and she said "eew gross no thanks"

This is like the male equivalent of a woman asking "would you like me better if I lost some weight?" That's a trap only an idiot falls for. No woman is going to tell you, "actually yes, your dick is weird." I'm not cut and I've had women express a range of reactions from "that looks better than those weird naked ones" to "I've never actually seen a circumcised one so I don't have a basis for comparison" to "wait, you can do tricks with it? Let me see that." Not once has someone ever said, "ewww, clip that shit or I'm not touching it," because that's not how humans act when they're getting ready to bone. Surely some of the women I've been with prefer circumcised penises, but they sure as hell weren't going to tell me about it, in the same way that I'm not going to say "I realize things were getting hot and heavy here, but you don't look like I thought you would naked, so bye." And every woman in the world has the absolute best line in the world available for a penis they don't want to look at; "why don't you get that condom on and come here big boy?" No man in the world interprets that as "she's just sick of looking at my penis!"

Circumcision is fine. But make the choice for yourself. Don't force it on an infant to conform to your idea of what the ideal penis should look like.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I don't understand what's so "gross" about it.

Idk, I guess just because it's the norm in america, and having all that foreskin is a weird thing?

This is like the male equivalent of a woman asking "would you like me better if I lost some weight?" That's a trap only an idiot falls for. No woman is going to tell you, "actually yes, your dick is weird." I'm not cut and I've had women express a range of reactions from "that looks better than those weird naked ones" to "I've never actually seen a circumcised one so I don't have a basis for comparison" to "wait, you can do tricks with it? Let me see that." Not once has someone ever said, "ewww, clip that shit or I'm not touching it," because that's not how humans act when they're getting ready to bone. Surely some of the women I've been with prefer circumcised penises, but they sure as hell weren't going to tell me about it, in the same way that I'm not going to say "I realize things were getting hot and heavy here, but you don't look like I thought you would naked, so bye." And every woman in the world has the absolute best line in the world available for a penis they don't want to look at; "why don't you get that condom on and come here big boy?" No man in the world interprets that as "she's just sick of looking at my penis!"

Circumcision is fine. But make the choice for yourself. Don't force it on an infant to conform to your idea of what the ideal penis should look like.

That's reasonable

Cut his nipples off as well, he won't need them.

I wish, my nips could probably find their way to be visible through a winter coat if they tried.
 

D6AMIA6N

Member
I'm circumcised, my ten month old son is not.

My wife left the decision to me, and because it is not medically necessary, does not have any health benefits, and is not my own body, I left my son as he was born.

EDIT: Just thinking of my baby boy being strapped down, within his first days or even hours of being born, to undergo a painful unnecessary procedure for the sake of vanity, literally brings a tear to my eye.
 
The US is practically alone in it's practice of circumcision for circumcisions' sake, I'm told South Korea also has that practice, but I rarely see it mentioned.

A practice which South Korean culture learned due to being occupied by the U.S. military. Otherwise it has no widespread history of it before the Korean war.

Fucked up, eh?
The mutilation of genetalia is a purely religious thing that primarily exists in Africa, the Middle East and North America. I see it as a symptom of an unhealthy view on sexuality. Only through education can we combat this abominable treatment of boys and girls.

.

Although I would add that it goes beyond its "religious" covenant roots in a lot of cultures, but still has a lot of similarities (like in the U.S., Phillipines, or South Korea).
 

SoundLad

Member
Wait, I lost sensitivity down there?

Fuck. If I had a choice between more hygiene upkeep or slightly better feeling sex, I know which one I would go for.

Yeap, the glans loses sensitivity as a result of circumcision. Now, that can be a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.

I would personally be very against circumcision being performed on newborns. Guys can get it done later in case of medical complications such as phimosis.

(I'm from Europe)
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
A practice which South Korean culture learned due to being occupied by the U.S. military. Otherwise it has no widespread history of it before the Korean war.

Fucked up, eh?

I thought you were bullshitting, so I looked it up, and that's actually fascinating.
 

darscot

Member
I see a lot of post about the horror and pain a child goes through. I suspect many people posting have not actually seen or been involved in this. I took my son and was right there with him during the entire procedure. I'm not religious but I did go to an expert and someone with plenty of experience. Sure its a huge stereotype but I honestly looked up a Doctor with a mineral in his last name that specialized in it. I took my son and they put this little device on him that insures you can only cut what you are supposed too. The give me a sugar cube wrapped in like wet cloth and told me to let my son suck on it. As soon as you put that sugar in his mouth you can see the standard sugar high reaction. He was like damn this is tasty. At that moment the Doctor did his business and my son gave out a single WTF yell and then immediately was like hey give me back that sugar to suck on. On my way out of the office I tossed the sugar in the garbage and he was out like a light. The whole procedure took 5 minutes. Sure in any medical procedure there is risk but people are massively overstating the pain and horror of it. My experience in Canada was smooth and easy. My wife was in the car crying the whole time but to me it was a Father's decision and she agreed but would not be involved.
 

n0razi

Member
No reason to do it. If kid wants it later, he can choose to. Don't do unnecessary surgery just because.

There's a lot of things that I'm glad my parent waited till I was older to choose to do. Circumcision is not one of them... thank all that's good in the world they did it when I was an ignorant baby lol. I don't consider myself religious but uncut looks nasty as hell.
 

Xun

Member
I see a lot of post about the horror and pain a child goes through. I suspect many people posting have not actually seen or been involved in this. I took my son and was right there with him during the entire procedure. I'm not religious but I did go to an expert and someone with plenty of experience. Sure its a huge stereotype but I honestly looked up a Doctor with a mineral in his last name that specialized in it. I took my son and they put this little device on him that insures you can only cut what you are supposed too. The give me a sugar cube wrapped in like wet cloth and told me to let my son suck on it. As soon as you put that sugar in his mouth you can see the standard sugar high reaction. He was like damn this is tasty. At that moment the Doctor did his business and my son gave out a single WTF yell and then immediately was like hey give me back that sugar to suck on. On my way out of the office I tossed the sugar in the garbage and he was out like a light. The whole procedure took 5 minutes. Sure in any medical procedure there is risk but people are massively overstating the pain and horror of it. My experience in Canada was smooth and easy. My wife was in the car crying the whole time but to me it was a Father's decision and she agreed but would not be involved.
Did you get his earlobe cut as well? You probably should've done.
 

manakel

Member
I see a lot of post about the horror and pain a child goes through. I suspect many people posting have not actually seen or been involved in this. I took my son and was right there with him during the entire procedure. I'm not religious but I did go to an expert and someone with plenty of experience. Sure its a huge stereotype but I honestly looked up a Doctor with a mineral in his last name that specialized in it. I took my son and they put this little device on him that insures you can only cut what you are supposed too. The give me a sugar cube wrapped in like wet cloth and told me to let my son suck on it. As soon as you put that sugar in his mouth you can see the standard sugar high reaction. He was like damn this is tasty. At that moment the Doctor did his business and my son gave out a single WTF yell and then immediately was like hey give me back that sugar to suck on. On my way out of the office I tossed the sugar in the garbage and he was out like a light. The whole procedure took 5 minutes. Sure in any medical procedure there is risk but people are massively overstating the pain and horror of it. My experience in Canada was smooth and easy. My wife was in the car crying the whole time but to me it was a Father's decision and she agreed but would not be involved.
Thank you for this. Most of the people posting how parents are the incarnate of evil for circumcising their babies have absolutely no experience with it other than the rare horror stories they're posting or to shame.
 
Sure its a huge stereotype but I honestly looked up a Doctor with a mineral in his last name that specialized in it. [...]My wife was in the car crying the whole time but to me it was a Father's decision and she agreed but would not be involved.
Dude wtf? And it's not a stereotype it's superstitious mumbo-jumbo.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
But where have these puritanical crazies got the idea to do it so much from? Europe's had its fair share of religious nutcases over the centuries, but I don't think any country here does it even half as much as the US. If Judaism was the prevalent religion I could kind of get it. But it isn't.

We exported ours from the UK to America..

Sorry.
 
There's a lot of things that I'm glad my parent waited till I was older to choose to do. Circumcision is not one of them... thank all that's good in the world they did it when I was an ignorant baby lol. I don't consider myself religious but uncut looks nasty as hell.
This is a result of conditioning because everyone is circumcised

Humans are born with a foreskin, and it everyone were to stop circumcising their babies tomorrow, nobody would think it's weird in a couple generations (in America at least)

Am I the only one in this thread who was circumcised as a baby and wishes they weren't?
 

Peltz

Member
Don't cut a piece of your sons anatomy off permanently for appearance reasons. Aside from religious aspects, circumcision is a modern phenomenon that has all but declined in every major advanced countrt except for the US. And because it has declined, those in favor of it use things like some obscure medical studies done in African villages with high HIV rates of how it may potentially stave off HIV.

But let your son decide. You are unnecessarily creating a risk for no reason besides cosmetic. Someone in this thread do it because it looks gross. How stupid is that? Have you ever met a circumcised guy who enjoys condoms as well as going bare skin? Why? Because he has lost almost all sensitivity in his penis because the skin has had to harden up. It is why they need ribbed condoms, lube or need girls to be on birth control so they don't need to do it. As for whether foreskin will be tight or phimosis, let your son discover and you ber your ass he will. He will easily start to retract his foreskin when he masturbates. When he is an adult and horny it will naturally slide back. And yet if he needs a circumcision, he can still get one of his own volition.

To be fair, I have a circumcision and can't feel anything when wearing a condom. There may be some truth to this.

Am I the only one in this thread who was circumcised as a baby and wishes they weren't?

No. I don't feel strongly about it either way, but I wish I was at least given the choice to be uncut. But to me, this is how I've always been and so it's a bit difficult to care or wish I weren't.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Humans are born with a foreskin, and it everyone were to stop circumcising their babies tomorrow, nobody would think it's weird in a couple generations (in America at least)

That's fine, but they think it's weird now, and I'm not sure I wanna be on the frontlines of progressiveness subjecting my kid to the awkwardness of being the outcast.
 

darscot

Member
Did you get his earlobe cut as well? You probably should've done.

I posted my reasons much earlier in the thread. It was not religious or aesthetic in any way. In my age and demographic I think I knew at most a handful of guys that were not and 2 of them ended up getting it done as teenagers and it was fuckign horrific. I chose to have it done because it's actually fragile and prone to infection if damaged. I know I was very active and not the cleanest as a kid so I felt it was best to just have it done when my son was a baby. My reasons seem to be rare in this thread.
 

jem0208

Member
I posted my reasons much earlier in the thread. It was not religious or aesthetic in any way. In my age and demographic I think I knew at most a handful of guys that were not and 2 of them ended up getting it done as teenagers and it was fuckign horrific. I chose to have it done because it's actually fragile and prone to infection if damaged. I know I was very active and not the cleanest as a kid so I felt it was best to just have it done when my son was a baby. My reasons seem to be rare in this thread.

Why not teach your child proper hygiene?

Or is it just easier to chop a bit of their cock off?
 
No. I don't feel strongly about it either way, but I wish I was at least given the choice to be uncut.

I guess this is more accurate. It's not like I have a chip on my shoulder about it lol, I just kind of wish my parents didn't decide to cut off a part of me when I was a baby

That's fine, but they think it's weird now, and I'm not sure I wanna be on the frontlines of progressiveness subjecting my kid to the awkwardness of being the outcast.

I'll take up that role for you

As of right now there's no way I'd get a potential son circumcised
 

darscot

Member
Why not teach your child proper hygiene?

Or is it just easier to chop a bit of their cock off?

Like I said earlier, boys are dumb as fucking posts at that age. One friend had a chick actually rip it and he was too ashamed and embarrassed to speak up until it was infected. The other took a slap shot and it got pinched in his jock. He was stupid and just tried to man up and play through the pain. Hockey equipment is not exactly clean and it got infected. Both of them ended up in hospital. My main reason is the whole bullshit about sex and guys being tough. I just know myself I would probable not speak up right away either, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree so I had it done as basically preventive maintenance. I feel it was the right choice for me and every Father has the right to decide either way.
 

zou

Member
Norm in the United States, no longer the norm in Canada

Nor is it really the norm in the US anymore, certainly not on the west coast. Right now it's around 50/50% overall, with circumcision continuously trending downwards.

Hell, if you are choosing to circumcise your boy now, he'll be the odd one out in 10+ years. Which should be a big deal, as that same argument is used to argue in favor of circumcision now.
 
If some other culture cut off the pinkie toes, or branded them by cutting them as a religious promise (or because it looks "weird" otherwise), I have a feeling the opinions in this thread would be far different.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/circumcision-rates-declining-health-risks-rising-study-says/

Circumcision for male infants is becoming less common in the U.S., according to new data published in Mayo Clinic Proceedings. The paper also finds that over their lifetime, half of all uncircumcised males will contract a medical condition related to their foreskin.

"Infant circumcision should be regarded as equivalent to childhood vaccination," said Brian Morris, coauthor of the new report and professor emeritus in the School of Medical Sciences at the University of Sydney

Morris and his colleagues found the circumcision rate in newborns has declined from 83 percent in the 1960s to 77 percent in 2010.

The study says the benefits of newborn circumcision exceed the risks by at least 100 to 1.

Well, that single google search didn't go quite as I thought it would.
 

Keri

Member
I'm circumcised, my ten month old son is not.

My wife left the decision to me, and because it is not medically necessary, does not have any health benefits, and is not my own body, I left my son as he was born.

EDIT: Just thinking of my baby boy being strapped down, within his first days or even hours of being born, to undergo a painful unnecessary procedure for the sake of vanity, literally brings a tear to my eye.

Yeah, this was exactly my situation as well. My husband is circumcised, but he's mentioned before that he believes he's less sensitive as a result and wishes he wasn't. I left the decision mostly to him (since it's obviously an area he's more personally familiar with) and he was against doing it to our son. I agreed, because of the lack of good reasons to do it.

Also, I agree with your last point. Watching vaccinations are hard enough and those have a really strong reason behind them. I'm glad we didn't put ourselves through more pain, unnecessarily.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/circumcision-rates-declining-health-risks-rising-study-says/
The paper also finds that over their lifetime, half of all uncircumcised males will contract a medical condition related to their foreskin.

This is almost certainly a reference to urinary tract infections, which are really common among women and not really a big deal, like at all. Is there anything that makes them more dangerous for men?
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
or you could give him the choice when he's older, if he feels that way.

Adult circumcision is way worse than infant circumcision.

"They had to cut it with a scalpel and stitch it up. And it was horrible, those big old-fashioned stitches all around. It was painful, and it was awkward," he told me. "After I first got it done, I wasn't interested at all in getting a boner. When I did—ouch. I popped a stitch. I got an infection. It was all a nightmare. When it healed, it had scars all around it. We called it Frankenpecker."

https://www.vice.com/en_dk/article/men-explain-why-they-were-circumcised-as-adults-330

Damn, how does the rest of the world deal with it? Foreskin diseases must be an epidemic in non-American, uncut soil.

I honestly wouldn't know lol
 
This is almost certainly a reference to urinary tract infections, which are really common among women and not really a big deal, like at all. Is there anything that makes them more dangerous for men?

It all sounds dubious as fuck. "Some research suggests that circumcision in infancy actually lowers the risk for prostate cancer in adulthood."

Oh for fucks sake....
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
It all sounds dubious as fuck. "Some research suggests that circumcision in infancy actually lowers the risk for prostate cancer in adulthood."

Oh for fucks sake....

The research was done by what seems to be fairly reputable sources.

http://journals.lww.com/journalppo/pages/default.aspx
. "These data are in line with an infectious/inflammatory pathway which may be involved in the risk of prostate cancer in some men,"

"Although observational only, these data suggest a biologically plausible mechanism through which circumcision may decrease the risk of prostate cancer. Future research of this relationship is warranted."

Also, it's just saying that it suggests that, that's not even the main point of the article.

That my point.

Circumcision rates in the UK are way lower, in fact, the whole of Europe are way lower.

Our dicks are not falling off due to disease as a result.

I'm just looking at the statistics and studies. Yours might have had no problem, but you're not everyone.
 
Thank you for this. Most of the people posting how parents are the incarnate of evil for circumcising their babies have absolutely no experience with it other than the rare horror stories they're posting or to shame.

Why do it in the first place? It's just weird as hell.
 

1044

Member
That's fine, but they think it's weird now, and I'm not sure I wanna be on the frontlines of progressiveness subjecting my kid to the awkwardness of being the outcast.

Outcast? That's going a bit far. It's not like everyone walks around with their dicks out and we have separate toilets for those uncut.
 
I'm circumcised, my ten month old son is not.

My wife left the decision to me, and because it is not medically necessary, does not have any health benefits, and is not my own body, I left my son as he was born.

EDIT: Just thinking of my baby boy being strapped down, within his first days or even hours of being born, to undergo a painful unnecessary procedure for the sake of vanity, literally brings a tear to my eye.

Strapped down? I held my sons hand as he lay on his back. It was over in ten secs. He's 8 now and cried more getting his throat swabbed for Strep.
 
Its not necessary and offers no benefits

Just let the kid decide if he wants to do it later in life when he has access to pain medication that you cannot give to fucking newborns

Its really that simple in my mind
 

Carlius

Banned
Do it. It's normal. Uncircumcised penises look gross.

then you wont like mine..

giphy.gif
 

The Lamp

Member
I see a lot of post about the horror and pain a child goes through. I suspect many people posting have not actually seen or been involved in this. I took my son and was right there with him during the entire procedure. I'm not religious but I did go to an expert and someone with plenty of experience. Sure its a huge stereotype but I honestly looked up a Doctor with a mineral in his last name that specialized in it. I took my son and they put this little device on him that insures you can only cut what you are supposed too. The give me a sugar cube wrapped in like wet cloth and told me to let my son suck on it. As soon as you put that sugar in his mouth you can see the standard sugar high reaction. He was like damn this is tasty. At that moment the Doctor did his business and my son gave out a single WTF yell and then immediately was like hey give me back that sugar to suck on. On my way out of the office I tossed the sugar in the garbage and he was out like a light. The whole procedure took 5 minutes. Sure in any medical procedure there is risk but people are massively overstating the pain and horror of it. My experience in Canada was smooth and easy. My wife was in the car crying the whole time but to me it was a Father's decision and she agreed but would not be involved.

"Hi I have an anecdote I'd like to recite to refute science on the psychology and pain related to infantile circumcision"

Reposting because needed

Myth 1: They just cut off a flap of skin.

Reality check: Not true. The foreskin is half of the penis's skin, not just a flap. In an adult man, the foreskin is 15 square inches of skin. In babies and children, the foreskin is adhered to the head of the penis with the same type of tissue that adheres fingernails to their nail beds. Removing it requires shoving a blunt probe between the foreskin and the head of the penis and then cutting down and around the whole penis. Check out these photos: http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html(nsfw)

Myth 2: It doesn't hurt the baby.

Reality check: Wrong. In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure (Lander 1997).

Myth 3: My doctor uses anesthesia.

Reality check: Not necessarily. Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don't? They didn't think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour - if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery.

Myth 4: Even if it is painful, the baby won't remember it.

Reality check: The body is a historical repository and remembers everything. The pain of circumcision causes a rewiring of the baby's brain so that he is more sensitive to pain later (Taddio 1997, Anand 2000). Circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, anger, low self-esteem and problems with intimacy (Boyle 2002, Hammond 1999, Goldman 1999). Even with a lack of explicit memory and the inability to protest - does that make it right to inflict pain? Ethical guidelines for animal research whenever possible* - do babies deserve any less?

Myth 5: My baby slept right through it.

Reality check: Not possible without total anesthesia, which is not available. Even the dorsal penile nerve block leaves the underside of the penis receptive to pain. Babies go into shock, which though it looks like a quiet state, is actually the body's reaction to profound pain and distress. Nurses often tell the parents "He slept right through it" so as not to upset them. Who would want to hear that his or her baby was screaming in agony?​

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...9/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe

Don't put your baby through that.
 

Izuna

Banned
Uncut dicks are disgusting. When I see them in porn I usually go find a different video.

Think of your sons future porn career. Get him cut.

It's why Japanese porn is censored. Complete turn off

I'm surprised people are allowed to say uncut is disgusting. It's some stupid US culture.
 

RM8

Member
If some other culture cut off the pinkie toes, or branded them by cutting them as a religious promise (or because it looks "weird" otherwise), I have a feeling the opinions in this thread would be far different.
Well, of course, since pinkie toes are pretty freaking important for things such as, not falling while you're standing. A toe (one of the most important of them to boot) is not a small piece of skin. I'm on Team Don't Get Unnecessary Surgeries even though I had it done as a baby, but this analogy is frankly terrible.
 

Keri

Member
The research was done by what seems to be fairly reputable sources.

http://journals.lww.com/journalppo/pages/default.aspx

"These data are in line with an infectious/inflammatory pathway which may be involved in the risk of prostate cancer in some men,"

"Although observational only, these data suggest a biologically plausible mechanism through which circumcision may decrease the risk of prostate cancer. Future research of this relationship is warranted."

Also, it's just saying that it suggests that, that's not even the main point of the article.

I can't read the study you're referencing, but to give some possible context I found an article which states:

Another benefit sometimes mentioned is a reduced risk of penile cancer. Case control studies have reported that uncircumcised men have a three times greater chance of developing penile cancer. Again, this is relative: Penile cancer is very rare in the United States, so the actual risk reduction from circumcision is very, very small. It’s estimated that more than 300,000 infants might need to be circumcised to prevent one case of penile cancer.

So, regardless, the risk of penile cancer is small. I mean, obviously if you're that one guy who gets penile cancer, it would be worth it to have it done, but for 299,000 other boys, it's unnecessary. (And that's just assuming the connection is actually causal). You're about a 100 times more likely to develop breast cancer, as a man. (1 out of 100,000 risk of penile cancer versus 1 out of 1,000 risk of breast cancer).
 

Cyanity

Banned
So you do you think getting cut as a baby can cause PTSD?

Sorry I didn't lookup the source, but to me It is painfully obvious a baby getting cut isn't causing people PTSD because you would have to remember the experience to begin with. The myth is either misleading or using bad information and it's making it's other points less creditable by doing so.

I'm also sure that there are some cases of depression caused by getting cut, but it is heavily outweighed by those documented cases of men who aren't cut and have been embarrassed by women and men alike for being different. There's a higher chance of having those symptoms if you aren't cut. Just doing a quick google search I'm sure will give you pages on pages of results of people wishing they had been cut to fit in and the issues they have had.

I am not saying this should be a reason to get cut, and it is not right to make fun or treat some different because of this - I am saying this point is moot and factually incorrect at least concerned with PTSD. There are good points to be made here. That is not one of them

So much pseudoscience in here that it's painful to read. This is the same type of logic used by climate change deniers who see it snowing outside and think that everything's ok with the world.
 
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