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Scorpio presentation pictured within AMD's Vega/Ryzen booth

Shrennin

Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
Well...yeah, but that says nothing about Zen is my main thrust, and more about Scorpio being stronger than Pro, which we already knew.

I was responding to someone who said the opposite of Scorpio being a *true* generational leap was true. It may or may not involve Zen, but my main point was "general leaps" have been used to describe Scorpio.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
This situation reminds me a bit of the Switch situation.

All logic suggested Nintendo was going to make a hybrid. But doubters consistently said "But Nintendo said it won't be a hybrid".

Once again, all logic suggests it's going to be a Ryzen based APU. But again "They said no semi-custom before 2018".
 
Are you dense? He isn't the actual insider I wasn't referring to. But you can keep pretending that's the case, if it better fits your narrative.

So he wasn't the person you were referring to but decided not to add anything aside the quote when asked about the source. Got it.

Next time I'll try to decipher what you actually mean.
 

Roboculus

Member
It would be pretty insane if they got Zen in this thing. Would definitely make it a monster that completely outclasses the Pro. But they'd have to eat shit on the cost to sell it at a reasonable price, I suspect.

That's exactly why Zen was never an option. Even if it hypothetically were available, there's no way they would be okay with the increase in price.

$399 is the target price they wanna hit and an expensive CPU ain't gonna let them do that. Both MS and Sony already cheaped out on CPUs at the beginnng of this gen so we know it's not a top priority for them.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
This situation reminds me a bit of the Switch situation.

All logic suggested Nintendo was going to make a hybrid. But doubters consistently said "But Nintendo said it won't be a hybrid".

Once again, all logic suggests it's going to be a Ryzen based APU. But again "They said no semi-custom before 2018".

Nintendo didn't actually say it wouldn't be a hybrid, and I've not seen any evidence for Ryzen in Scorpio beyond differences in interpretation (primarily "Su's comment doesn't apply to Scorpio because x").
 

Electret

Member
This situation reminds me a bit of the Switch situation.

All logic suggested Nintendo was going to make a hybrid. But doubters consistently said "But Nintendo said it won't be a hybrid".

Once again, all logic suggests it's going to be a Ryzen based APU. But again "They said no semi-custom before 2018".

Not even close, but do go on!
 
I meant secrecy in regarding to other departments in AMD. It's ridiculous hyperbole because Zen is not happening for Scorpio.

No matter how hard you wish it, it's not happening.

Me wishing it to happen or not is not the point here. My life isn't going to be affect by the fact that Zen is going to be included in Scorpio. I don't even plan to buy Scorpio. The point is that using that quote as an official confirmation that Zen is not going to be used in Scorpio is debatable.
 

Akronis

Member
Me wishing it to happen or not is not the point here. My life isn't going to be affect by the fact that Zen is going to be included in Scorpio. The point is that using that quote as an official confirmation that Zen is not going to be used in Scorpio is debatable.

Console = custom SoC

AMD CEO says no custom SoC until 2018.

Seems pretty clear cut to me.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Actually, they do work in secrecy; in fact, I am positive the all sign NDAs for not disclosing information about what they are developing for MS, and thus the CEO would not be allowed to talk about it.

Su's most recent reiteration of where semi-custom Ryzen sits in AMD's roadmap came a few months ago at a financial conference. The notion that she has been telling white lies to potential investors to keep a lid on some sort of secret is, frankly, absurd. While I do belong to the camp that believes Scorpio will be Jaguar/Puma-based, the only counter-argument I discount rather than simply disagree with is that Su has been playing fast and loose with the truth.
 

Electret

Member
By that, I mean that it's more logical to suggest Microsoft waited a year to get a new CPU in as opposed to think they waited a year to release a slight upgrade on the Pro.

That does make more sense. It just bothers me when someone definitely claims Zen will be (or won't be) in Scorpio. There are good reasons to believe it will be, and good reasons to believe it won't. Nobody has proof either way, much less can claim to be 100% of the outcome.
 
So he wasn't the person you were referring to but decided not to add anything aside the quote when asked about the source. Got it.

Next time I'll try to decipher what you actually mean.

I know people love to think otherwise, but speaking with an insider does not make you an insider. So I thought it was obvious I was referring to the actual MS person he spoke to. And I also added that another insider on NeoGaf suggested the same thing earlier, but I can't find the post because I don't remeber exactly who that was.
 

Roboculus

Member
By that, I mean that it's more logical to suggest Microsoft waited a year to get a new CPU in as opposed to think they waited a year to release a slight upgrade on the Pro.

Well obviously that's not how MS is gonna market it.

They'll probably focus more on how much better Scorpio is compared to Xbox One then compare it to the Pro since that's where you'll get the most meaningful difference.
 

Scorpio is likely to have the least amount of market share of all the consoles. My gut instinct is that most devs will reuse as much as they can from what they're doing on PS4 Pro and leave it at that.


What does this even mean though? And why on a system that mostly gets 3rd part ports for X1, PS4, and PC, would they use PS4 Pro as a baseline for anything?

All Scorpio would have to do to outclass PS4 Pro improvements on the Developer end, is up the visual settings (lighting, framerate, resolution), texture resolution etc. Since most 3rd party games are also PC games, and most devs already make PC ports that far outclass PS4 Pro and support 4k, that is far more likely the place that 3rd parties will bring their upgrades over from. Also, with 4K now being much more widely supported on PC, and now with Scorpio, it will likely just make even more sense for 3rd parties to create all assets, such as textures to 4k spec, since it will be incredibly easy to downgrade them to 1080p for PS4 Pro, PS4, and Xbox One anyways, and even have tangible benefits for even 1080p textures, since the source will be at 4k.

Also, if MS plays their cards right, I think it's entirely possible that Scorpio could leapfrog PS4 Pro's weak install base pretty quickly. Right out of the gate, it will apparently be a proper 4K system, and have the best 3rd party ports of all consoles.

If MS has quality support for tangible visual upgrades to all older X1 games on Scoprio, right out of the gate (like PS4 Pro's Boost mode, but will better than a minor 14% performance boost), promotes Scorpio properly, with a strong 1st party lineup of games, and strongly leverages all the 4K work they've been doing on PC already, they could be in a far better position than PS4 Pro is currently.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
That does make more sense. It just bothers me when someone definitely claims Zen will be (or won't be) in Scorpio. There are good reasons to believe it will be, and good reasons to believe it won't. Nobody has proof either way, much less can claim to be 100% of the outcome.

I have no idea if it will

Do I think it will? Yes. Do I know? No.

My reasoning is based almost entirely on the fact that I struggle to comprehend Microsoft are dumb enough to wait a full 12 months to effectively release a PS4 Pro.
 

Sydle

Member
That by upgrading to scorpio none of your library or peripherals cease to work.

Spencer says no Scorpio exclusives...

won't developers want to make the most of all that power, leaving poor old Xbox One owners behind?

Not so, Phil Spencer told me in an interview at E3 this week.

...

I saw Aaron Greenberg tweeted to say there will be no Scorpio exclusives. Is that right?

Phil Spencer: That's right. When you're buying a console game from us, you know that console game will run on your original Xbox. No-one gets left behind. We said that on stage. Your Xbox One S and Scorpio. That's an important design point for us.

They're all part of the same family. And we want to make sure just like when you're buying your music today, you don't worry about upgrading to a new phone that somehow won't play your old songs or your new songs. We think about your Xbox One collection of games that will move with you between those different consoles.

In fact, somebody today will have an Xbox One, and when Scorpio comes out they will buy Scorpio and they will put Xbox One in a different room, and we're obviously going to make sure that as they move between rooms that they've got access to the same games.
The Scorpio games are obviously designed to take advantage of six teraflops and 4K. Your Xbox One, you were playing those today. You know what those look like and feel like. But there won't be Scorpio exclusive console games. Absolutely not.

What does this even mean though? And why on a system that mostly gets 3rd part ports for X1, PS4, and PC, would they use PS4 Pro as a baseline for anything?

All Scorpio would have to do to outclass PS4 Pro on the Developer end, is up the visual settings, texture resolution etc. Since most 3rd party games are also PC games, and most devs already make PC ports that far outclass PS4 Pro and support 4k, that is far more likely the place that 3rd parties will bring their upgrades over from.

Also, if MS plays their cards right, I think it's entirely possible that Scorpio could leapfrog PS4 Pro's weak install base pretty quickly. Right out of the gate, it will apparently be a proper 4K system, and have the best 3rd party support of all consoles.

If MS has quality support for tangible visual upgrades to all older X1 games on Scoprio, right out of the gate (like PS4 Pro's Boost mode, but will better than a minor 14% performance boost), promotes Scorpio properly, with a strong 1st party lineup of games, and strongly leverages all the 4K work they've been doing on PC already, they could be in a far better position than PS4 Pro is currently.

Maybe there's something to using what they're doing on PC, didn't think about that, but still, any multi-platform game being targeted for a console release for the next couple of years at the very least will be designed within the limitations of the majority marketshare holder, PlayStation 4. We're not going to see games designed targeted to utilize Zen first and foremost, they'll be designed for Jaguar's limitations. So why take on the extra cost of Zen now? Maybe for VR, but VR seems incredibly niche and probably won't come down in cost for the next couple of years at which point we'll be talking about the next Xbox and PlayStation.
 
Su's most recent reiteration of where semi-custom Ryzen sits in AMD's roadmap came a few months ago at a financial conference. The notion that she has been telling white lies to potential investors to keep a lid on some sort of secret is, frankly, absurd.

Investors know better. But then why didn't AMD used the Xbox 360 to illustrate their roadmap with regard to the introduction of the unified architecture in their GPUs?
 
Is there a link to the actual article or anything where AMF specifically says no zen for customs in 2017?

All i see are speculation online and no hard evidence with specifics.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Investors know better.

Potential investors do not attend financial conferences and assume that it's opposite day and everything a CEO of a company says is actually the inverse of the truth. ;)

But then why didn't AMD used the Xbox 360 to illustrate their roadmap with regard to the introduction of the unified architecture in their GPUs?

Because the X360 didn't use a desktop GPU and it was already known that the R600 series would mark the introduction of unified shaders on the desktop side of things. It's common for semi-custom designs to mix and match current and near-future technology. That's the attraction of them.

Is there a link to the actual article or anything where AMF specifically says no zen for customs in 2017?

All i see are speculation online and no hard evidence with specifics.

You can hear it straight from the horse's mouth here (the sign-up details aren't verified, so you can just put in whatever you want and access the audio). I want to say it's around the 17-minute mark but I'm probably wrong. The exact quote is:

I talked about our Zen roadmap for our products, in terms of desktops, servers and notebooks, but one should expect Zen in our semi-custom roadmap as well as we look beyond 2017 into the 18/19 timeframe, and so we really do view this as developing foundational IP that can go into a number of different markets and we have good prospects in those areas.
 

Electret

Member
Also, if MS plays their cards right, I think it's entirely possible that Scorpio could leapfrog PS4 Pro's weak install base pretty quickly.

I doubt that, based alone on Playstation's international appeal and Xbox's vanishing presence outside US/UK.

Right out of the gate, it will apparently be a proper 4K system

I don't think this is going to be a particularly efficacious marketing point. XB1S is currently marketed as a 4K machine, as is Pro (perhaps to a lesser extent). Selling the difference between that and proper 4K to the average Joe seems like a challenging task. Not to mention a fair portion of Scorpio games will inevitably render under 4K.

and have the best 3rd party support of all consoles.

Power alone has never crowned a console king. Price - and particularly holiday bundles, when Scorpio will likely launch - will be a far greater driver of purchases.

If MS has quality support for tangible visual upgrades to all older X1 games on Scoprio, right out of the gate (like PS4 Pro's Boost mode, but will better than a minor 14% performance boost), promotes Scorpio properly, with a strong 1st party lineup of games, and strongly leverages all the 4K work they've been doing on PC already, they could be in a far better position than PS4 Pro is currently.

I don't think updates for previously released titles are going to move many units. With regard to a first party lineup, we've had a lot of insider information suggest that MS is internally tightening the belt and doubling down on service-based games. We should see a smattering of third party exclusives here and there, but it doesn't seem reasonable to expect anything resembling a first party renaissance. Scorpio's pitch seems to come down to: play what is available on our less powerful SKU on the world's most powerful console with better bells and whistles.
 
I wish people wouldn't spread this. He said that Xbox One games and accesories will be compatible with Scorpio. That's it.
No, that's not it. He also said:

Phil Spencer said:
Project Scorpio will be the next addition to the Xbox One family.
Phil Spencer said:
Xbox One, Xbox One S, and Project Scorpio will all be compatible.

Neither of those statements mesh with your claim that there will be Scorpio games that can't be played on earlier Xbox Ones.

Your interpretation of "No one gets left behind" is also perverse. If he was referring to being able to bring games and accessories with you when buying the new machine, that would be "No games get left behind." By saying "No one gets left behind", he's making promises to people, not to their libraries. Since Microsoft presumably won't be giving away Scorpio units to every current Xbox One owner, the only way to guarantee this is to make all games available to them for purchase. If there were new games that people can only play if they buy a Scorpio, that would be the definition of folks getting left behind.
 
Maybe there's something to using what they're doing on PC, didn't think about that, but still, any multi-platform game being targeted for a console release for the next couple of years at the very least will be designed within the limitations of the majority marketshare holder, PlayStation 4. We're not going to see games designed targeted to utilize Zen first and foremost, they'll be designed for Jaguar's limitations. So why take on the extra cost of Zen now? Maybe for VR, but VR seems incredibly niche and probably won't come down in cost for the next couple of years at which point we'll be talking about the next Xbox and PlayStation.

Well, if your argument is that an upgrade to Zen on the CPU end for Scorpio isn't necessary, then I agree. The main concern, is that there's a tangible boost to CPU in some fashion, you can certainly do that without upgrading to Zen.

On the other hand though, having a stronger CPU would always be a benefit, and not necessarily one that would cost developers a lot of money to support. Both Jaguar and Zen are X86 afterall, it's not like supporting Zen would require developers to support Zen as if it was a completely new system architecture. Also, if developers are already making high poly assets, and higher resolution textures for PC ports, then these can be brought over to Scorpio without a ton of hassle I assume.
 

Electret

Member
Is there a link to the actual article or anything where AMF specifically says no zen for customs in 2017?

All i see are speculation online and no hard evidence with specifics.

There's audio of the call online - you can listen to it. I don't have the link, sorry.

IIRC she says something to the effect of "look for Zen in semi-custon beyond 2017."

Beaten by the always diligent JaseC.
 
...really?

I don't follow you. I said their message is that they wanted to build the most powerful console on the market so that developers can feel less constrained by hw limitations. You ask who ever said that, and I provided you with the specific presentation where they said exactly that.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
This situation reminds me a bit of the Switch situation.

All logic suggested Nintendo was going to make a hybrid. But doubters consistently said "But Nintendo said it won't be a hybrid".

Once again, all logic suggests it's going to be a Ryzen based APU. But again "They said no semi-custom before 2018".

You have it the opposite. All logic suggest no Zen, "but MS said highest quality pixels! Uncompromised performance!"

Reminds me of Pro wankers before it came out. "Bubu Sony said it was 'premium console!' that means its gotta be a beast with 5 tflops 10GB ram and a double decker sandwhich!"
 

Matt

Member
I don't follow you. I said their message is that they wanted to build the most powerful console on the market so that developers can feel less constrained by hw limitations. You ask who ever said that, and I provided you with the specific presentation where they said exactly that.
"Really" because you are taking marketing fluff as a sort of hard promise.

Better looking, better preforming versions of games that will still look and preform worse than what you can pull off on a PC. That's what the Scorpio will bring to the table.
 
Potential investors do not attend financial conferences and assume that it's opposite day and everything a CEO of a company says is actually the inverse of the truth. ;)

When I say they know better I mean they don't use financial conferences as their primary source of information. And what if Scorpio will be launched next holiday season and it has Zen? That would be what, 1 or 2 months before 2018? How exactly that would be considered a bad thing by investors?
 

LostDonkey

Member
No, that's not it. He also said:




Neither of those statements mesh with your claim that there will be Scorpio games that can't be played on earlier Xbox Ones.

Your interpretation of "No one gets left behind" is also perverse. If he was referring to being able to bring games and accessories with you when buying the new machine, that would be "No games get left behind." By saying "No one gets left behind", he's making promises to people, not to their libraries. Since Microsoft presumably won't be giving away Scorpio units to every current Xbox One owner, the only way to guarantee this is to make all games available to them for purchase. If there were new games that people can only play if they buy a Scorpio, that would be the definition of folks getting left behind.

Perverse lol. OK sure. I'm just going with what he actually says in the reveal.

https://youtu.be/pNP53Lhuq_s

Around the 03:48 mark.

"All Xbox one (not scorpio) games and accessories will play on all 3, no one gets left behind"

That's the origins of that quote. He's saying that xbox one games will carry over to scorpio not the reverse. How are you going to play a Scorpio VR game on an Xbox one?
 
I doubt that, based alone on Playstation's international appeal and Xbox's vanishing presence outside US/UK.



I don't think this is going to be a particularly efficacious marketing point. XB1S is currently marketed as a 4K machine, as is Pro (perhaps to a lesser extent). Selling the difference between that and proper 4K to the average Joe seems like a challenging task. Not to mention a fair portion of Scorpio games will inevitably render under 4K.



Power alone has never crowned a console king. Price - and particularly holiday bundles, when Scorpio will likely launch - will be a far greater driver of purchases.



I don't think updates for previously released titles are going to move many units. With regard to a first party lineup, we've had a lot of insider information suggest that MS is internally tightening the belt and doubling down on service-based games. We should see a smattering of third party exclusives here and there, but it doesn't seem reasonable to expect anything resembling a first party renaissance. Scorpio's pitch seems to come down to: play what is available on our less powerful SKU on the world's most powerful console with better bells and whistles.

The reason having previously released games performing better right out of the gate is a big deal, is because it makes the whole system far more valuable for general consumers, and is far easier of a message to sell and communicate. For example:

PS4 Pro (On release) - Some game will perform better, maybe, but some won't...it's all rather confusing, and requires research to even find out.

Scorprio - (an assumed marketing message they could push) Every game you own will perform significantly better, and all new games will look amazing, and support up to true 4k

PS4 Pro's marketing, and the tangible benefits it actually offered, were incredibly confusing. If everything you own is better on Scorpio, then it's a very direct, and easy to understand message. It would also no doubt make people feel a lot better or more assured about spending the extra money to get one.



With regards to exclusives, if you think MS is going to just roll over and die, and stop trying to have a great 1st party lineup, then I think you are sorely mistaken. Obviously, all 1st party games MS makes will be pushing Scorpio now, probably first and foremost, and when MS shows a game off at a conference, they can now show off the absolutely most beautiful version, running on Scoprio or PC. From the outside, it will look like MS games are a lot more impressive now. I certainly expect MS to come out swinging at E3 this year.

And that's what it all comes down to, Marketing. PS4 Pro had incredibly weak marketing. It was just kind of...there, but not really pushed. So far, MS seems to be doing a far better job of communicating and pushing Scorpio. You can tell they plan to seriously push the system this E3 as well, simply by the fact that the system will be front and center at E3, judging by their recent E3 date announcement.

If MS properly market and communicate Scorpio, properly support it, and can convince people that it is a true upgrade, then I think they can absolutely sell far better than PS4 Pro, perhaps even sell far better as the Xbox Brand overall.

I agree that PS4 has amazing momentum, I'm not saying Scorpio will upend that, but those sales are barely going to the Pro, while people are still buying the base console in droves. I would not be surprised at all if Scorpio outsells the PS4 Pro in relatively short order. but it will be interesting to see how things pan out. MS certainly has a lot of room to botch the whole operation.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Technically, Scorpio can be considered as primarily a 2018+ product =)

if we're going super generous sure, but we're talking about AMD's technical roadmap. Considering she says 2018 and 2019, it implies its loser to mid 2018 and into 2019 than anything else
 
"Really" because you are taking marketing fluff as a sort of hard promise.

Better looking, better preforming versions of games that will still look and preform worse than what you can pull off on a PC. That's what the Scorpio will bring to the table.

The point originally was that in order to fulfill their promise, they would need to bring Zen to the table, as using Jaguar it's gonna look like a poor effort, honestly. It may be marketing fluff but if that's what they promised, people will expect them to deliver on their promises.
 
old games with hardcoded 30FPS locks and 1080p max res will not perform "significantly" better

I actually amended that point above. That is what I think they should aim for, not what MS is currently offing , obviously.

With regards to resolution and FPS being locked, that is basically the hurdle. Considering the amazing work the Backwards compatibility team is doing, perhaps they will be willing to put in some work on the first party end, to bring benefits to as many older games as they can.

It may be possible for MS engineers to find a way to increase resolution for older titles, and issue updates on their end, instead of requiring devs to update each game individually for example. Framerate would be far more difficult to increase, without proper engineering support though.
 

Asherdude

Member
old games with hardcoded 30FPS locks and 1080p max res will not perform "significantly" better
Phil Spencer disagrees.

BjN27Q6.png

https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/828823828386033664?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
 

Matt

Member
The point originally was that in order to fulfill their promise, they would need to bring Zen to the table, as using Jaguar it's gonna look like a poor effort, honestly.
All Zen would bring is better frame rates (and other such improvements). It wouldn't be a transformative thing.
 

rokkerkory

Member
Scorpio was supposed to be a true generation leap. Now, please focus on the word "true" and you should understand why Zen would be integral to the speculated design.

Get outta here with the trolling. No one at ms has said this if anything exact opposite. Your just trying to raise expectations so that when zen isn't part of the system you can say they didn't deliver. They never said zen was in the system but 6tf was.

Logic says zen wont be in system because it's not needed to achieve what the goals are. xb1 games at 4k.
 
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