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Cool visual effects in 16bit console games.

Gotcha.

The Mega CD "VRAM" (actually not called VRAM in documentation) is a completely different beast than regular VRAM which is not surprising given Mega CD has no video output whatsoever. The aforementioned memory bank needs not to be accessed through ports and such, it's basically another bank of RAM that happens to have yet another processor connected to it, except that processor is not really programmable. You can just turn it off, ignore it and use it as regular RAM for one of 68k's. Or split it in half for both of them.

If anything this looks like the most sane part of Mega CD RAM since everything else has some oddities like BIOS variables and bank switching.

When you use MegaCD's ASIC to rotate stuff, you have to render a flat 15 colors buffer on MegaCD VRAM. This is entirely a software renderer, so you can keep adding more flat buffers for increased color count at expense of performance. Then you transfer the flattened big image result to Megadrive's VDP to reconstruct the image. That's why as powerful as MegaCD is is, you are limited to 20-30fps on those games using rotating fields like Soulstar or SonicCD bonus stage. It is pretty wasteful, but there couldn't be any direct connection from ASIC to VDP :/
 
I believe this technique was used for Sonic Jam.

People thought so for quite a time, but apparently it wasn't.

When you use MegaCD's ASIC to rotate stuff, you have to render a flat 15 colors buffer on MegaCD VRAM. This is entirely a software renderer, so you can keep adding more flat buffers for increased color count at expense of performance. Then you transfer the flattened big image result to Megadrive's VDP to reconstruct the image. That's why as powerful as MegaCD is is, you are limited to 20-30fps on those games using rotating fields like Soulstar or SonicCD bonus stage. It is pretty wasteful, but there couldn't be any direct connection from ASIC to VDP :/

Well, yes. Anyway you can turn the thing off and that bank of RAM will keep working. In fact the official docs floating on the web seem to recommend it as communication medium between the two 68ks.
 
Anyway, back on topic:

Been replaying Final Fantasy VI, and I'm still intrigued at the minecart section when you escape from the
Magitek Research Facility
in the first half of the game - where this is, it's about soon after you land in the southern continent for the first time.

Makes me wonder what is going on in the game when I saw it.
 
Which basically makes it the audio processor of MD.

Many games ignore it entirely and use M68k for audio. You can even bypass it entirely and feed YM2612 directly with M68k, that would be a pretty bad idea since it would stall a lot slowing down M68k. Then, you could run game code on Z80, but it isn't very useful because it is way slower.

So both affirmations are true. It was widely used as sound chip on Megadrive games (when used), but it isn't a sound chip just like PS360's CPUs aren't even when managing all the audio stuff. They all miss any specific instruction set to offload audio stuff.

if you really want to you can put game logic on SPC700 and pump it out through the ports.

Can you? I always though you was pretty limited on that regard. Likely load & forget since you can't even stream sound from outside of the SPC's RAM. If I called Z80 autonomous earlier, I always saw SPC700 as an independent republic.


I believe this technique was used for Sonic Jam.

Sonic Jam uses ports, not emulation. It took a lot of time to figure out because they were pretty good.
 

Celine

Member
Anyway, back on topic:

Been replaying Final Fantasy VI, and I'm still intrigued at the minecart section when you escape from the
Magitek Research Facility
in the first half of the game - where this is, it's about soon after you land in the southern continent for the first time.

Makes me wonder what is going on in the game when I saw it.
Any pic?
 

GoaThief

Member
Couple of random Amiga GIFs:

Famous bouncing ball demo:
boingball.gif


Even more famous, State of the Art demo:
5274154_happy-30th-birthday-commodore-amiga_e0d8cac6_m.gif
8a2HXBW.gif


Moonstone. The game was so good, and so beautifully brutal.
tumblr_ndbve1t5xv1s7elebo1_500.gif
MasculinePessimisticAphid-size_restricted.gif

Moonstone.gif


Ruff 'n Tumble. Probably the best run 'n gun game on Amiga:
Ruff_%2527n%2527_Tumble_%2528Amiga%2529_11.gif
Ruff_%2527n%2527_Tumble_%2528Amiga%2529_28.gif
Ruff_%2527n%2527_Tumble_%2528Amiga%2529_29.gif


Agony:
Agony_(Amiga)_05.gif


Banshee - a nice steampunk shmup:
_512.png


X-mas Lemmings:
Xmas_Lemmings_(Amiga)_06.gif


Fire & Ice:
Fire_and_Ice_(Amiga)_03.gif
Fire_and_Ice_(Amiga)_05.png


Chaos Engine (intro):
Chaos_Engine_03_%28CD32%29.gif

Chaos_Engine_04_%28CD32%29.gif

Chaos_Engine_05_%28A500%29.png


Lionheart:
Lionheart_%2528Amiga%2529_04.png


Walker
Walker_(Amiga)_08.gif


Flink:
The_Misadventures_of_Flink_%2528MCD%2529_07.png


SOTB:
Shadow_of_the_Beast_10.png


Unused ending animation from Shadow of the Beast:
SOTB_unreleased_ending_sequence.gif


Bonus SOTB fan art (download link for best quality: http://amigamuseum.emu-france.info/Fichiers/sites/sotb/Fichiers/Goodies/tribute_beast_fd.zip)





It is the best emulated version of the game available. No glitches on anything (including the wonderful title screen parallax scroller). It runs at super smooth 60Hz, while the music remains its original 50Hz playback speed (50Hz update video mode is also available as an option).
Awesome, thank you!

Nostalgia time.
 
Can you? I always though you was pretty limited on that regard. Likely load & forget since you can't even stream sound from outside of the SPC's RAM. If I called Z80 autonomous earlier, I always saw SPC700 as an independent republic.

Your intuition is correct, SPC700 is quite more autonomous, but nonetheless it is possible to put small game logic there. It's an exercise in futility but it's doable if the game is simple.
 

Does the GBA version count? (Someone could also grab a cap of the SNES version and see if it looks the same there.)

usl9EL9.png


It does look like the scaling is a bit uneven. You can't really see it in this still screenshot, but the minecart tracks do curve both left/right and up/down, and it sometimes splits. The columns and pillars do even appear to scale...

It looks strangely smooth, less like a bunch of predefined images and more like the game trying to assemble a scene from a bunch of tiles. It's hard to describe the things going on there.

My network is being all kinds of awful now.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
The genesis has 2 regions of addressable space that are 4 Mb each back to back. When you plug in one cart, it will address from 0x000000 - 0x3FFFFF, and can address 0x400000 - 0x7FFFFF if no CD is present. Both regions are separate from each other.

This is how Sonic 3 & Knuckles works, actually. Lock-On Technology is the Genesis addressing two carts at once - Sonic & Knuckles gets addressed up to 0x3FFFFF and Sonic 3 gets addressed to 0x7FFFFF. When you run Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the actual program execution is from Sonic & Knuckles, which knows to looks for Sonic 3 assets between 0x400000 and 0x7FFFFF instead of 0x000000 - 0x3FFFFF.

When a Sega CD is inserted, it addresses both regions.

This is why Sega's claim that they couldn't get Lock-On technology emulation working on the Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 last generation was seen as an enormous joke to the hacking community - there is no "lock-on technology emulation." It's not a real technology to emulate. Want to lock Sonic 3 onto Sonic & Knuckles? Literally all you have to do is copy Sonic 3 to the end of Sonic & Knuckles. You can do it with a text editor.

Wow, some fascinating stuff. Good reading in here.
 
The genesis has 2 regions of addressable space that are 4 Mb each back to back. When you plug in one cart, it will address from 0x000000 - 0x3FFFFF, and can address 0x400000 - 0x7FFFFF if no CD is present. Both regions are separate from each other.

This is how Sonic 3 & Knuckles works, actually. Lock-On Technology is the Genesis addressing two carts at once - Sonic & Knuckles gets addressed up to 0x3FFFFF and Sonic 3 gets addressed to 0x7FFFFF. When you run Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the actual program execution is from Sonic & Knuckles, which knows to looks for Sonic 3 assets between 0x400000 and 0x7FFFFF instead of 0x000000 - 0x3FFFFF.

When a Sega CD is inserted, it addresses both regions.

This is why Sega's claim that they couldn't get Lock-On technology emulation working on the Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 last generation was seen as an enormous joke to the hacking community - there is no "lock-on technology emulation." It's not a real technology to emulate. Want to lock Sonic 3 onto Sonic & Knuckles? Literally all you have to do is copy Sonic 3 to the end of Sonic & Knuckles. You can do it with a text editor.

While the idea is correct, I'm pretty sure both of these games have 2 MiB of data. So there is no need to access the side slot. S&K takes first two MiB and follows the next 2 MiB to the lock-on cartridge, assuming it's not S2 which complicates things. Everything fits in 4 MiB slot.
 

lazygecko

Member
I also started playing Alien Soldier thanks to this thread.

If you got the Steam version, don't forget to find the Japanese 60hz patch in the Workshop. By default it's the European PAL version (didn't get localized for America) which plays slower at 50hz.
 
https://youtu.be/TnLAC5AJPuM

Yup holy shit this soundtrack awesome.

Holy shit, I DID NOT expect a fucking guitar riff right at the beginning when I read "Genesis" and "soundtrack" in one sentence!

That is something else entirely.

Though I looked for the actual soundtrack, yet it does not fare bad either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VzLxWBho-8

I mean, holy shit, that is seriously awesome. Putting the (in my opinion relatively terrible) Genesis soundchip to good use here.
 

ScOULaris

Member
If you got the Steam version, don't forget to find the Japanese 60hz patch in the Workshop. By default it's the European PAL version (didn't get localized for America) which plays slower at 50hz.

I'm playing the European Genesis version. Should I switch to the Japanese Genesis release for 60hz?
 

reson8or

Member
Hey I really like the pc engine so I'm going to be a little biased :p

Although I thought this was a somewhat poor port I was kinda impressed the way they did the road sides.

Special Criminal Investigations - pcengine
Dk2qqB.gif


Jacky Chan's action kung fu - pce, I wished this effect was used a lot more throughout the whole game.
zpoGl7.gif


Terraforming - pc engine I really like the layered scrolling here.
qxryMG.gif


Download 2 - pce, a very short game but the effects and art design is interesting.
R60EAE.gif


Bomberman 94' - pce, looks simple but effective
o2061X.gif


Magical Chase - pce, probably a very easy trick but I love that shadow effect. I guess I am easily impressed
W6lM3v.gif

Love me some PCE effects! I tried and failed to post a GIF of Metamor Jupiter but this effect blew my mind when I saw it coming from the PCE!
 

jett

D-Member
Holy shit, I DID NOT expect a fucking guitar riff right at the beginning when I read "Genesis" and "soundtrack" in one sentence!

That is something else entirely.

Heh, if you want to get technical, that remix does not contain a single real guitar either. It's all synths.

But yeh, Thunder Force IV has some of the BEST music from the generation.
 

M3d10n

Member
This is from the Saturn version, right? I've just seen a video of the arcade version, and while this effect is there, it doesn't look anywhere near this colorful and nice.

The Saturn version has two modes, tate (vertical) and console (horizontal). Horizontal mode loses or replaces most of the parallax effects from tate mode, since line scrolling tricks used for vertical parallax in tate mode wouldn't work in horizontal mode. Tate is identical to the arcade.
 
Heh, if you want to get technical, that remix does not contain a single real guitar either. It's all synths.

But yeh, Thunder Force IV has some of the BEST music from the generation.

Wait wait wait wait wait. Are we still talking about this one? Or this actual Genesis/MegaDrive piece?
Because the former is definitely an arranged/redbook audio version with real instruments and synthesizers, while the latter is 100% Genesis/MegaDrive (which still sounds so fucking good).

EDIT: Bleh, I can't read.
Well, I still can't believe that remix doesn't contain real guitars. They sound way too real.
I heard my fair share of synth guitars and they didn't sound even REMOTELY close to this majestic eargasm.
 

jett

D-Member
EDIT: Bleh, I can't read.
Well, I still can't believe that remix doesn't contain real guitars. They sound way too real.
I heard my fair share of synth guitars and they didn't sound even REMOTELY close to this majestic eargasm.

jmupaXR.jpg


Seriously though, I'm just familiar with SSH, the arranger. He doesn't use real guitars ever. While he does puts a lot of effort into his synth guitars, but they still sound artificial and lack the natural screeching power of the real thing.
 

Celine

Member
Does the GBA version count? (Someone could also grab a cap of the SNES version and see if it looks the same there.)

usl9EL9.png


It does look like the scaling is a bit uneven. You can't really see it in this still screenshot, but the minecart tracks do curve both left/right and up/down, and it sometimes splits. The columns and pillars do even appear to scale...

It looks strangely smooth, less like a bunch of predefined images and more like the game trying to assemble a scene from a bunch of tiles. It's hard to describe the things going on there.

My network is being all kinds of awful now.
Ah you mean this:
https://youtu.be/BeiwHF68H7U?t=18m37s

It doesn't look that great to my eyes, like it is some sort of Outrun (ports for 16 bit consoles) fake scaled sprites.

While standard "mode 7" Super Mario RPG mine cart section looks better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Sf-y8wYe4

Oooh, I love Raster Saga 2.
Disappointing sequel.

Rastan 1 >> Rastan 2
 
AlwaysF1i was a port of sorts of Vroom from the Amiga. That used to be so fast.

Yeah , it almost looks like a direct port of the same engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVKDvLM8pKw. It even has the large statue bar on top of the screen. Still, Kawasaki Super Bike is pretty impressive for the Genesis/ Mega Drive.

Domark did some nice things on the Genesis hardware, like battle Frenzy/ BloodShot for the Genesis/ Sega CD, which used a decent raycaster based engine...

PmY2jmb.gif


But I find that a lot of impressive things on the Genesis/ Mega Drive came from UK and EU game studios that were well versed in the 68000 CPU''s in the Amiga or the Atari ST.
 

AmyS

Member
Surprised nobody mentioned M.U.S.H.A on Genesis, this part:

kRxkWY.gif


software scaling on the pieces that fall down into the canyon and parallax scrolling.

Edit: beaten by Jake!
 

Shaneus

Member
It's like he learned his technique shooting pool or something.

AlwaysF1i was a port of sorts of Vroom from the Amiga. That used to be so fast.
I fired up my copy the other day, surprised to see the battery backup still held up! Turbo mode was fucking crazy in that game.

Also, chalk me up for being surprised it was a port of anything. And that the Kawasaki game used the same engine, just like The Cycles* on PC (and I guess other machines) used the same engine as Grand Prix Circuit.

*The intro song is one of my favourite ever FM synth tracks, at least on PC

Domark did some nice things on the Genesis hardware, like battle Frenzy/ Blood Sport for the Genesis/ Sega CD, which used a decent raycaster based engine...

http://i.imgur.com/PmY2jmb.gif[IMG]

But I find that a lot of impressive things on the Genesis/ Mega Drive came from UK and EU game studios that were well versed in the 68000 CPU''s in the Amiga or the Atari ST.[/QUOTE]
Bloodshot it was called :) I remember reading about it first in my Sega Mega Drive Hints & Tips book (which I think I still have) and renting it from a local Sega shop that sold/rented ONLY Sega gear.

I played a legit prototype version of Virtua Racing on the MD back then! It was duct-taped into an MD2 because it was on a massive PCB that could've fallen out at any time.

Ditto on the EU/Amiga link to the MD too. I think compared to US-developed titles, I loved the ones from EU more just because they seemed to grasp the arcade-type ethos of the MD more than anyone, in general.

[quote="AmyS, post: 210748050"]Surprised nobody mentioned M.U.S.H.A on Genesis, this part:

[img]https://j.gifs.com/kRxkWY.gif

software scaling on the pieces that fall down into the canyon and parallax scrolling.

Edit: beaten by Jake!
Hah, I wonder if this level in Assault Android Cactus was partially inspired by that?
floorchange.gif
 

Shaneus

Member
If you got the Steam version, don't forget to find the Japanese 60hz patch in the Workshop. By default it's the European PAL version (didn't get localized for America) which plays slower at 50hz.
The music played like shit in the 60hz version, though. Did that get fixed?
 
Bloodshot it was called :) I remember reading about it first in my Sega Mega Drive Hints & Tips book (which I think I still have) and renting it from a local Sega shop that sold/rented ONLY Sega gear.

I dunno why I typed in Blood Sport? Maybe I have Van Damme on the brain?
 

missile

Member

I still don't understand how this type of parallax scrolling is possible. There don't appear to be any layers of sprites, and the background looks like all one solid 3D object.

How exactly was this accomplished?
How exactly, I can't say (wasn't any of the programmers).

Well, I assume the background isn't really 3d and in that case there can't be
any perspective projection of 3d points. So I think the effect rests on the
principle of pseudo perspective. That is to say; if you know how an object
scales under perspective projection (the moon in this case, it's part of a
sphere), then you can derive scaling factors which mimics the scale of the
object on the screen and use these scaling factors to scale/distort the
original 2d image creating a pseudo perspective. That means, instead of using
the real scaling factors for creating a perspective projection, i.e. in using
the real depth coordinate, you simply create your own depth based on some
knowledge.

For example. Standard perspective projection of a point (x,y,z) boils down to

x' = x/z
y' = y/z

with (x',y') its 2d projection.

If we don't know z, let's build our own one, i.e. z = f(x,y), hence

x' = x/f(x,y)
y' = y/f(x,y)

You now have to find an f(x,y) that somehow mimics the perspective projection
of a part of a sphere. One thing is for sure, the scaling isn't linear. A
simple (and easy to compute) function is a parabolic one, which has enough
curvature to fake the curvature of a sphere when being close enough. So you
will basically fiddle with some quadratic terms to get the scaling done in
such a way that it mimics some 3d curvature.

Don't know whether it was done this way, but that's how I would do it. It's
actually pretty simple, because you just have to find the right scaling
factors and scale your image with it while it scrolls into view.
 
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