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The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.

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dLMN8R said:
Justifying piracy by saying that The Witness' price is "too high" is just reprehensible.

First of all, now that I'm ~10 hours into The Witness with a massive amount of stuff left to do, no, it's not "too expensive". It completely justifies its own price.

Maybe it's too expensive for you. That doesn't mean it's not worth its price. Stop pretending like you're so fucking entitled to have every developer personally meet your own budget.


Second of all, it misses the wider point that assholes would pirate the game anyway, regardless of price.

Historically it was "we're pirating because of DRM!!!" Oops. There's a DRM-free version of The Witness.

Then it was "we're pirating because big companies don't care about us!!" Oops. This is a tiny indie team that worked their asses off for 8 years to bring you one of the most brilliant puzzle games ever.

Then it was "we're pirating because the PC version was shit and we want to send a message!!" Oops. Seems like the PC version of The Witness is fine.

Then it was "we're pirating because I have no idea if it'll work on my PC!!!" Oops. Steam offers no-questions-asked refunds for less than two hours of gameplay.



Stop making fucking excuses and start condemning it without qualification. Otherwise you're part of the problem.
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just gonna quote this again
 
mattp said:
just gonna quote this again
Click to expand...

just gonna quote this again
TCKaos said:
You're right. Let's not examine the economic variables that lead to high rates of piracy. Let's just blindly accept that it can never ever happen for a reason that could be studied and potentially reduced in order to maximize profit. Downloading games is disgusting and makes you a heartless monster and we need to have a zero-tolerance policy for it in all cases and not look at it at all for any reason because reasons.

I mean, could you apply this line or reasoning to any other thing that happens in the world literally at all?

I mean, people conduct huge studies and meta-studies to figure out why 486 people were murdered in Chicago in 2015, or why so many insurgents in the Middle East became militant. People attribute murders to poor economic conditions, or to social trends. States and Nations have managed to reduce drug usage by studying why people take drugs and addressing those issues in contrast to shit like "Just say no to drugs they're bad and only bad people do drugs and need to go to jail because reasons and drugs are reasons no excuse they're disgusting" and then throwing them in jail.

So, you're right. Let's just not talk about it. Let's not look at the relevant points of data that could influence the piracy of this product and how we could have maximized profits for Jonathan Blow, or at least reduced the rate at which his product is being pirated. It's disgusting point blank and deserves no form of introspection. Like every other bad thing that has ever happened, it's not important that we understand how or why it happens, merely to revolt at the fact that it does, and flail like children in response to it.
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dLMN8R said:
Justifying piracy by saying that The Witness' price is "too high" is just reprehensible.

First of all, now that I'm ~10 hours into The Witness with a massive amount of stuff left to do, no, it's not "too expensive". It completely justifies its own price.

Maybe it's too expensive for you. That doesn't mean it's not worth its price. Stop pretending like you're so fucking entitled to have every developer personally meet your own budget.


Second of all, it misses the wider point that assholes would pirate the game anyway, regardless of price.

Historically it was "we're pirating because of DRM!!!" Oops. There's a DRM-free version of The Witness.

Then it was "we're pirating because big companies don't care about us!!" Oops. This is a tiny indie team that worked their asses off for 8 years to bring you one of the most brilliant puzzle games ever.

Then it was "we're pirating because the PC version was shit and we want to send a message!!" Oops. Seems like the PC version of The Witness is fine.

Then it was "we're pirating because I have no idea if it'll work on my PC!!!" Oops. Steam offers no-questions-asked refunds for less than two hours of gameplay.



Stop making fucking excuses and start condemning it without qualification. Otherwise you're part of the problem.
Click to expand...

Pretty much all that needs to be said, good post. About the price: after spending a couple of evenings with this game, I'd say that the €37 I paid for it was a bargain. Not only is this a huge game, but it challenges me in ways not many other games do. I'm constantly awe-struck by it, and even though I'm only 100/700+ puzzles in, it's one of the most amazing gaming experiences I've had in recent years.
 
Why is this really news? Piracy affects all major games released no matter how indie the dev is and I don't think anyone is expecting it to go away any time soon as that is just impossible. Devs should not like that piracy exists, but I feel rampant piracy is just something that should be expected at this point. There is no need to make a big deal about it every time a popular game becomes heavily pirated when that is the norm.
 
daveo42 said:
Would you say it's more tied then to wanting to be a part of the conversation even if people don't value the game at its asking price?
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I think people still value the game, but just not at $40. There is no way for them to get the game at a price they do value the game at so they pirate it. Being part of the conversation and hype could be part of the value placed on a game. For example, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like The Witness, but I am curious about the fuss it is generating. I'm not going to pirate or buy the game, but if I did that would be the reason why.

YianGaruga said:
Piracy "only" takes imaginary/potential money away.
If you steal a game from a store, that store already paid "x" for the disc (actual value of materials is irrelevant) so they have to pay "x" again to replace it. They're now at -x through your actions. That sucks.

With piracy, everyone is at 0 before and afterwards, because you make a copy of something and it still exists afterwards.

They're both wrong, but I'm able to differentiate how both actions affect people. I don't pirate, I actively convinced some of my friends not to pirate, yet I don't see the reason do demonize everyone who pirates. I do not believe the gaming industry would be a significantly healthier place with significantly more success stories without piracy.
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It's true that 1 pirated game != 1 lost sale, but it might be true that 20 pirated games = 1 lost sale. It doesn't apply to everybody, but there are people on the edge who would have bought a game but won't because they pirated it. The easier pirating is the more edge cases will end up pirating instead of buying. I also think there is a marketing aspect to pirating that complicates the issue. Pirating might actually help promote some games through word of mouth. I expect that optimal sales involve a little bit pirating but not too much. Most developers/publishers would probably error on the no piracy side of things if they had a choice.
 
Damn that sucks, for me $40 is too much for a puzzle game (I rarely finish them and even though i bought braid I stopped after a hour or so), probably give this a try during a sale when I have more time to play it.
 
IW8simF.gif


Piracy is bad folks!
 
The Jackdog said:
so youve NEVER downloaded anything without paying for it right? music? pictures without fair use? nothing?

i doubt.

its a reality, pretending it doesnt exist or only exists because people are filthy thieves is so silly.
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I was really hoping this would obviously be seen as a joke post, but I guess it's hard in a thread where people are still quoting that long post with the bolded strawman statements that basically ends the same way.
 
Breads said:
Undertale didn't take a team 8 years/ massive investment to make.

Blaming pirating on lack of sales is bullshit though. People will support the things they like. Like (hopefully mentioned above) pirated copies aren't sales lost.
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It's not about Undertale's budget. It's about piracy and lack of sales. Piracy didn't prevented Undertale to sell that much and let's be honest, it didn't took a week for Undertale to reach these sales.

Although, while I'm doubtful about pirating killing sales, when I'm in Blow's shoes, I would be pissed off that the work of 8 years is being enjoyed by people for free.
 
moggio said:
What's the problem?
Click to expand...

mental gymnastics everywhere.

man, I'm an antagonist. I genuinely like to argue on the internet, and wouldn't you know it, half the things I like or dislike enough to comment on are contentious subjects around here anyway. but the state of discussion surrounding the particular things that I feel strongly about... cyclical bullshit, unadulterated and constant. and at some point I'm just gonna say something stupid in response to something stupid and get shitbanned before I have a chance to realize my folly and edit. so I'm just getting it out of the way, ban me, ban me, ban me, don't even want the option to come back.

Rembrandt said:
If piracy of a game you have no financial investment in makes you this uncontrollable, you should go outside for a little.
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yes. you're goddamn right.
 
I might have considered The Witness in the future at 20 and probably brought it at 15 euro but after watching Jim Sterling go through the first few puzzels on youtube I'm pretty convinced I will skip it. Doesn't matter how much it took to make the game it's still not worth 40 to me.

Also the reason it's annoying when developers rant about piracy is because it leads to draconian DRM that punish honest customers for the actions of pirates.

I gladly pay for games with little to no protection and reward developers for trusting their players. I will never buy a ubisoft game because to them every pc player is a thief in waiting.
 
All major games go through this sort of piracy.

Did he expect that people would inherently respect his game enough to not pirate it?
 
Jonathan Blow mentions the game being the top game of some torrent sites after being available for two days. Isn't this fairly typical for newly released games? Looking at the top torrents now for games:

1 - Rise of the Tomb Raider
2 - Lego Marvel Avengers
3 - The Witness
4 - Resident Evil 0

Seems pretty standard - although I wouldn't be surprised that piracy is higher for the Witness due to some people's perceived notion of the game being different and being unsure of it / not worth the price / something something line puzzle only rofl kek etc
 
Makonero said:
Isn't this an example of pricing yourself out of the market? I mean, piracy is completely wrong, but I doubt the vast majority of pirates would have paid $40 for the game in the first place.
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I would wager that if it was $20, it would still get pirated but pretty much the same group of people.
 
Solid Samus said:
This thread fucking disgusts me. Just lay me down a ban and get me outta here. I'm finally 100% spent on this forum, it's been fun.
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Lol... I get a pro-piracy vibe from this thread. I am trying to understand it, but it isn't working. I know several people who pirate games simply because they don't want to pay for them even though they have the money. Not sure how many do that or how many do it as a "demo" or because they wouldn't be able to afford it anyways.

Either way, I do not condone piracy. If you cant afford it, don't play it at all, that simple. Gaming is a hobby, not something you actually need to live, there is no "reasoning" with it in my book. A developer has every right to be concerned about piracy. Not saying people in here are "defending" it, more like throwing the argument against it to the side and saying "see you're still selling the game well!".

Always online anti-piracy measures fell apart due to gamer response to it and the overall cost of it, they deal with piracy because they have to not because they want to.
 
Solid Samus said:
mental gymnastics everywhere.

man, I'm an antagonist. I genuinely like to argue on the internet, and wouldn't you know it, half the things I like or dislike enough to comment on are contentious subjects around here anyway. but the state of discussion surrounding the particular things that I feel strongly about... cyclical bullshit, unadulterated and constant. and at some point I'm just gonna say something stupid in response to something stupid and get shitbanned before I have a chance to realize my folly and edit. so I'm just getting it out of the way, ban me, ban me, ban me, don't even want the option to come back.
Click to expand...

If piracy of a game you have no financial investment in makes you this uncontrollable, you should go outside for a little.

TarNaru33 said:
Lol... I get a pro-piracy vibe from this thread. I am trying to understand it, but it isn't working. I know several people who pirate games simply because they don't want to pay for them even though they have the money. Not sure how many do that or how many do it as a "demo" or because they wouldn't be able to afford it anyways.

Either way, I do not condone piracy. If you cant afford it, don't play it at all, that simple. Gaming is a hobby, not something you actually need to live, there is no "reasoning" with it in my book. A developer has every right to be concerned about piracy. Not saying people in here are "defending" it, more like throwing the argument against it to the side and saying "see you're still selling the game well!".

Always online anti-piracy measures fell apart due to gamer response to it and the overall cost of it, they deal with piracy because they have to not because they want to.
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People are broke. Digital media is extremely easy to get for free. Lots of people do it for TV shows, movies and music; games are no different. It's not hard to understand. It won't go away and devs will continue to deal with it and continue making games, just like Blow. Until we get developers dropping left and right strictly because of piracy or game budgets being drastically cut with think pieces being written about the repercussions, most pirates are going to continue pirating.
 
Nzyme32 said:
Jonathan Blow mentions the game being the top game of some torrent sites after being available for two days. Isn't this fairly typical for newly released games? Looking at the top torrents now for games:

1 - Rise of the Tomb Raider
2 - Lego Marvel Avengers
3 - The Witness
4 - Resident Evil 0
Click to expand...

Absolutely. It just means the game is anticipated and well known.

A ratio of sales/pirated downloads would be a more interesting metric in comparison to other games.
 
Nzyme32 said:
Jonathan Blow mentions the game being the top game of some torrent sites after being available for two days. Isn't this fairly typical for newly released games? Looking at the top torrents now for games:

1 - Rise of the Tomb Raider
2 - Lego Marvel Avengers
3 - The Witness
4 - Resident Evil 0
Click to expand...
We were all ganging up on Microsoft for mishandling Tomb Raider's release, but the reason it sold poorly was because of piracy all along!
 
Why are there so many cry babies here on gaf suggesting that the price point has anything to do with this?

I'm really surprised that J-blow hasn't implemented some kind of anti-piracy measure in this game, like disabling the walk, or maybe reversing the colors on the color puzzles. That would've been hilarious. There's a missed opportunity here.
 
SparkTR said:
True. I have no issue with Denuvo unlike other people. What I want to know is how much sales are increasing (or will increase) with a game that uses Denuvo versus a game that doesn't use it. With Ubisoft and their (albeit old) piracy data it should be a big difference, I haven't seen that though.
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There must be some strings attached or maybe it's expensive to use cause there's only a handful of games currently using Denuvo, according to the wiki.
 
icespide said:
so if the witness was exactly the same game only physical, you'd be okay with $40? huh?
Click to expand...

Yes.

I have absolutely never paid $40 for a digital title ever. Not on Steam, not on PSN, not on Live, not on the eShop, not on the App Store, and not on the Play Store. I always wait for a sale or physical.
 
aggienader said:
Why are there so many cry babies here on gaf suggesting that the price point has anything to do with this?
Click to expand...



The problem with the thread is that the whole debate is flawed on one principle:
Thinking the Witness sold bad. There are pirates for any price. I'm willing to bet that even at 5 dollars, the game would be as pirated. Price point is related to sale, and people instantly equal piracy to bad sales.


Titanoboa said:
That's just what happens when you release on PC. They should have released on consoles only first and this wouldn't have happened.
Click to expand...


Totally agree. Hence why the PS4 version is selling dramatically more than the PC version
It doesn't. The sales are comparable
 
razgriz417 said:
Damn that sucks, for me $40 is too much for a puzzle game (I rarely finish them and even though i bought braid I stopped after a hour or so), probably give this a try during a sale when I have more time to play it.
Click to expand...

Make sure you try it at some point. Yes, The Witness is primarily a puzzle game, but it's also one of the most beautiful, intricate and deep open worlds released in a long time. The Witness is a poster child for the phrase, "more than the sum of its parts".

The price discussion in here is depressing. It's as though people get a price point stuck in their head, for whatever reason, and if the game costs more than the figure they arbatrairaly determined, they revolt.

The Witness is absolutely worth $40, and it would absolutely be worth $60.
 
Kenzodielocke said:
Hey Mr. Blow.

1 pirated != 1 sale lost.
Click to expand...

Exactly

That's not to say that piracy has no affect on the sales of a game, but I don't think it makes as much an impact as the press or developers/publishers make it out to be.

I bought the game on Steam and my brother(who lives in the same house) bought it on PS4, so there's one sale made up for a lost pirate sale :P
 
Nzyme32 said:
Jonathan Blow mentions the game being the top game of some torrent sites after being available for two days. Isn't this fairly typical for newly released games? Looking at the top torrents now for games:

1 - Rise of the Tomb Raider
2 - Lego Marvel Avengers
3 - The Witness
4 - Resident Evil 0

Seems pretty standard - although I wouldn't be surprised that piracy is higher for the Witness due to some people's perceived notion of the game being different and being unsure of it / not worth the price / something something line puzzle only rofl kek etc
Click to expand...

Bet square enix are happy bunnies.
 
dLMN8R said:
Justifying piracy by saying that The Witness' price is "too high" is just reprehensible.

First of all, now that I'm ~10 hours into The Witness with a massive amount of stuff left to do, no, it's not "too expensive". It completely justifies its own price.

Maybe it's too expensive for you. That doesn't mean it's not worth its price. Stop pretending like you're so fucking entitled to have every developer personally meet your own budget.


Second of all, it misses the wider point that assholes would pirate the game anyway, regardless of price.

Historically it was "we're pirating because of DRM!!!" Oops. There's a DRM-free version of The Witness.

Then it was "we're pirating because big companies don't care about us!!" Oops. This is a tiny indie team that worked their asses off for 8 years to bring you one of the most brilliant puzzle games ever.

Then it was "we're pirating because the PC version was shit and we want to send a message!!" Oops. Seems like the PC version of The Witness is fine.

Then it was "we're pirating because I have no idea if it'll work on my PC!!!" Oops. Steam offers no-questions-asked refunds for less than two hours of gameplay.



Stop making fucking excuses and start condemning it without qualification. Otherwise you're part of the problem.
Click to expand...

great post
 
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