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The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.

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Right. Like, they can't go into a board meeting with just a single slide that says, "well, 4 million copies of the game were pirated in the first week and that's why the game failed, the end."

Some VP is going to demand to see materials that explain why they reached that conclusion.

People need to realize that the analysts working in corporate at these Publishers are not game devs from studios.

They're from MBB and the Big Four consulting firms.

I've seen people fired over this. It's not uncommon. A lot of it is contract, but it's weird working with these people and then all the sudden they're gone.

This isn't a game. At the end of the day it's a business and there is no wheeling and dealing around that. I don't know about Activision, but EA on the other hand...
 
Part of the piracy problem is lack of game demos. Why I can't test the game before purchase?
Because you'd realise you don't actually like the game you were hyped for and decide against buying it. Demos actually decrease sales, that's why publishers got rid of em.
 
I'm telling you that publishers make dumb decisions frequently enough to make that kind of thinking almost entirely irrelevant.

Again, most of the time, these decisions are made in isolation by a single entity. Not a unilateral decision across the industry that no one has ever backtracked from.

Why do you think publishers walked back the "Online Pass" or any number of stupid ideas they've come up with in the last decade? Because they didn't work.

The fact that they're willing to pay big money for newfangled anti tampering anti-piracy measures now and forever more despite the huge backlash for years and years should tell you everything you need to know.
 
Piracy is bad and there's no justification for it. If you pirate a game, you're being an asshole.

That said, he's sitting at the top of the Steam charts and claims to be doing similarly well on PS4. I detect a bit of hyperbole when he says the piracy numbers will impact his ability to make another game.
 
Considering the recent Undertale milestone and the very similar existing example of Talos Principle, this thread is really strange to read even ignoring the 2007-tier PC piracy generalizations.



I mean I've certainly seen plenty of people trying to defend piracy, if you want to find that all you need to do is take one step off GAF. The unrepentant pirates they are targeting with those 'YOU ARE LITERALLY PIRATE HITLER' posts absolutely do exist. But outside of some serious word twisting, they aren't in this thread so it's some weird kinda internet shadowboxing.

Yes they exist but no one in this thread except for maybe 1 person defended piracy here.
 
Isn't this an example of pricing yourself out of the market? I mean, piracy is completely wrong, but I doubt the vast majority of pirates would have paid $40 for the game in the first place.

This game is EASILY worth $40... if not more. My GF and I are going through it at a rapid pace, nearing 20 hours into the game I'd say. We are close to the end but there is so much side stuff we need to return to and complete... and it'll take us another 20+ hours to do all that I'm sure. Reports of it being a 50+ hour game are quite accurate, I'd say... especially for one person trying to get through it by him/herself.

Edit: Holy hell this thread assploded...
 
Yup, not sure why people are not understanding this point.

Yeah. It is a sad state.

Worse is the gymnastics that appears when the subject appears. It isn't a lost sale, it is used as a demo, I don't agree with DRM, I find modern games too buggy.

An emphatic "so what". The game has a price tag on it. You want to play it, you pay it. You are not owed the game.

I have the same disdain when people try to argue against firmware loopholes in hardware.
 
Jesus allmighty.

WE'RE A BLACK HOLE FOR PROFITS.

Abandon ship.

Im guilty as well. I read every OT even for games I'll never play because I appreciate the work involved in making the posts and people being hype for games I wouldn't personally care for strangely can make me hype too. I didn't realize I was costing people money :(
 
Piracy is bad and there's no justification for it. If you pirate a game, you're being an asshole.

That said, he's sitting at the top of the Steam charts and claims to be doing similarly well on PS4. I detect a bit of hyperbole when he says the piracy numbers will impact his ability to make another game.
He specifically said another game that's comparable to The Witness which probably means length, content , budget etc.
 
Again, most of the time, these decisions are made in isolation by a single entity. Not a unilateral decision across the industry that no one has ever backtracked from.

Why do you think publishers walked back the "Online Pass" or any number of stupid ideas they've come up with in the last decade? Because they didn't work.

The fact that they're willing to pay big money for newfangled anti tampering anti-piracy measures now and forever more despite the huge backlash for years and years should tell you everything you need to know.

It might be cynical, but I genuinely do believe that they have to keep trying. Margins are margins in the business world, and a lot of people would be out of a job if the words "Eh, good enough!" meant anything to a corporate entity.

It's probably not worth it for a smaller developer to care due to the amount of money it costs for the negligible gains, but for a publically-traded company you need to show that you're making strides to always increase revenue. Even with data to back up the fact that anti-piracy measures may not increase sales in a meaningful way, the knee-jerk reaction is always going to be exactly what we've been seeing in the thread.

And that's important to the shareholders of these large companies, so.
 
Again, most of the time, these decisions are made in isolation by a single entity. Not a unilateral decision across the industry that no one has ever backtracked from.

Why do you think publishers walked back the "Online Pass" or any number of stupid ideas they've come up with in the last decade? Because they didn't work.

The fact that they're willing to pay big money for newfangled anti tampering anti-piracy measures now and forever more despite the huge backlash for years and years should tell you everything you need to know.

That's my entire point. They "ran the numbers" like you said they would when they implemented the online pass. and it failed.

Because publishers have no more authority or power when it comes to making good decisions than anyone else. The fact that they're willing to pay for the antitampering could very well be another online pass in the making, and not worth the money spent in the long run. You can't possibly know. So to assume that they have analysts that somehow make them authorities on this stuff is asinine.
 
Part of the piracy problem is lack of game demos. Why I can't test the game before purchase?

It's never been easier to get a good idea of whether or not you'll like a game. Let's not act like the absence of a demo is presenting you with the choice of either pirating the game or walking in blind.
 
Way too much pro-piracy in here. I thought you guys liked games? Do you think game development is free? If everyone who pirated games didn't pirate, the overall quality of all games would rise dramatically. Stop making my games bad by taking money away from developers, ya scallywags.

Would them? It doesn't seem to be like that at all, actually. Denuvo games don't seem to be particularly super ultra mega good games, and neither did they have any kind of meaningful rise on sales because of being uncrackable.


Here's a thing: the great majority of people pirating isn't going to buy shit. The "lost sales" are negligible at best.
 
Piracy "only" takes imaginary/potential money away.
If you steal a game from a store, that store already paid "x" for the disc (actual value of materials is irrelevant) so they have to pay "x" again to replace it. They're now at -x through your actions. That sucks.

With piracy, everyone is at 0 before and afterwards, because you make a copy of something and it still exists afterwards.

They're both wrong, but I'm able to differentiate how both actions affect people. I don't pirate, I actively convinced some of my friends not to pirate, yet I don't see the reason do demonize everyone who pirates. I do not believe the gaming industry would be a significantly healthier place with significantly more success stories without piracy.

Thanks for the response. Helps me understand the argument better even if I disagree with piracy.
 
Oh my god here we go again.

What's the issue here? If you don't want to go through the hassle of this go to steam, go to the game, go to broadcasts, then watch someone play. You can absolutely get an idea as to whether the game is for you or not. There is no excuse these days since there are tons of lets plays and broadcasts for every single game.
 
Did Blow get a kicback from Sony for keeping this off XB1? That might prove to have been a mistake if he got nothing and did it due to being unhappy with their behaviour in the Braid era.

I'm sure he did. It would be illogical to ignore the Xbox platform for zero kickback, considering you're releasing on PC as well.

Piracy is just a cost of doing business on PC. Developers and publishers are free to ignore that market if they want to minimize piracy as much as possible. I personally wouldn't give up free money, considering the minimal cost to port between PS4/XB1/PC, but it's their prerogative.

I don't condone piracy, but I understand it, especially with no demo. $40 is a bit much to blindly buy a game from a guy who hasn't had a game out for 7-8 years. Personally, though, I can't wait to buy this thing. I am just finishing up Dark Souls 2 and I'm in!
 
That's my entire point. They "ran the numbers" like you said they would when they implemented the online pass. and it failed.

Because publishers have no more authority or power when it comes to making good decisions than anyone else. The fact that they're willing to pay for the antitampering could very well be another online pass in the making, and not worth the money spent in the long run. You can't possibly know. So to assume that they have analysts that somehow make them authorities on this stuff is asinine.

They've been doing that for 10 freakin' years. In what world is that not "in the long run" already. We've been through the cycle. It's done, those things are here to stay because they work.
 
What's the issue here? If you don't want to go through the hassle of this go to steam, go to the game, go to broadcasts, then watch someone play. You can absolutely get an idea as to whether the game is for you or not. There is no excuse these days since there are tons of lets plays and broadcasts for every single game.

Steam has it stated in it's TOS that they reserve the right to remove your ability to request refunds if it seems you're abusing it. We don't know the threshold for this, so for some people it's better safe than sorry.

Some people simply don't have the money available to spend it and then wait on the refund to go through. Some people have data-caps on how much they can download per month.

Steam refunds are not a demo and should not be treated as such.
 
Of course expected. He should consider porting it to as many platforms as possible. Especially the ones where it is not as easy to pirate games. The game doesn't seem very demanding.
I think especially Indy devs should target a broad audience.
 
Most games are pirated, your game isn't special in this department, Mr Blow. For myself, I'm not buying it because it doesn't look worth €40 and because it's PS4 console exclusive. I won't pirate it, but I'll wait until a Steam sale. €20 or less seems fair.
 
Steam has it stated in it's TOS that they reserve the right to remove your ability to request refunds if it seems you're abusing it. We don't know the threshold for this, so for some people it's better safe than sorry.

Some people simply don't have the money available to spend it and then wait on the refund to go through. Some people have data-caps on how much they can download per month.

Steam refunds are not a demo and should not be treated as such.

If you don't have the money to buy the witness at 40$ the demo point is moot.
 
Not to say that this is a excuse for pirating the game but I honestly think $40 is too steep for this type of game. Only reason I haven't played the game yet because I can't see myself paying that much for this type of game even if it's full-length and such.

Just can't fuck with that price mang
 
Isn't this an example of pricing yourself out of the market? I mean, piracy is completely wrong, but I doubt the vast majority of pirates would have paid $40 for the game in the first place.

That's a horrible look at this. No matter what somebody prices their game, there is no excuse for piracy. People won't buy the game if it isn't priced accordingly and the publisher will adjust it if necessary.
 
Blow says to use it as one, so does Steam.
There's a difference between getting a game, realizing you don't like it and then returning it and downloading a game with the explicit idea of treating it as a demo. Again, it's in the Steam TOS that if it seems like you're abusing refunds they reserve the right to remove that ability.


If you don't have the money to buy the witness at 40$ the demo point is moot.
A demo can help someone figure out if they want to save up for that game or not. A Steam refund requires you to already have that money available.
 
There's a difference between getting a game, realizing you don't like it and then returning it and downloading a game with the explicit idea of treating it as a demo. Again, it's in the Steam TOS that if it seems like you're abusing refunds they reserve the right to remove that ability.



A demo can help someone figure out if they want to save up for that game or not. A Steam refund requires you to already have that money available.

you don't need to treat it as demo. You can buy games you like and refund them if you don't. That works on steam. Unless you are notoriously bad with your purchases.
 
The price point shitstorm will do that. People think its just a kooky wee puzzle game and not something worth the asking price. Did he do much to really push the reason for his price across before it was announced?
He really didn't. The only reason I hear it's worth the price is because of his name and the length of the game.
 
People will pirate even if they could reasonably purchase the game. The whole 1 pirated copy != 1 lost sale is an argument against big telecoms and publishers who seek gross compensation and legislation to lock down the free-web. Which reprehensible.

You're argument only covers a single facet of the pirate demographic, and it more of as to how do we treat pirates after the fact.

The guy you responded to is entirely right with his points. Many people pirate that could otherwise reasonably save up or purchase the game. Or simply wait for a sale down the road, because we all know how cheap sales eventually are. Piracy does cut into the profits and it really can hurt companies. Especially when the investment costs of software development are very hard to evaluate. There is no argument for the responsibility lying with him to hedge against pirates. It quite simply is the pirates who are wrong. We should be understanding as to their circumstances, but they are still wrong.

I'm not defending the action itself, but the assertion that the price of the game and the uncertainty of what the game actually is or how it plays should somehow divorce it from its rate of piracy or apparently less-than-expected sales that I'm seeing in this thread is a huge act of willing ignorance or intellectual dishonesty.

Yes, people with the means to do so are going to pirate this game, and they're assholes for it. No one is arguing that. It's the same thing that we say when someone murders someone. Yes, it's obviously wrong that this occurred. That's white noise in the debate and doesn't have to be asserted because we already understand it to be the case.

But when we look at systemic crimes, we have to look at systemic causes. My analogy to Chicago Heights isn't an unjust one for this debate, I don't think. Of course, every individual instance of murder is wrong. That's obvious. But why is there so much murder in that specific area? You've got generations worth of people that have been under-educated and represented, with chunks of the surrounding areas with 50%+ poverty rates. We can, in part, attribute some of the violence to the effects of generational poverty and poor education, and the causes of those. No one should gawk at that kind of idea.

Similarly, of course the individual instances of piracy of The Witness are wrong. That's obvious and doesn't need to be stated and cannot be defended. What we need to figure out is why is it performing below expectations, and why is it being pirated so much relative to its sales? So much so that Jonathan Blow is discouraged?

If we accept that things such as Let's Plays do not truly convey the quality of the game or the sensation of playing the game, and that the game is functionally different enough of an experience to be comparable to other games, we then cannot assert the quality of the game itself as a defense of the game in the case of piracy. The pirate, in this case, by definition, cannot know what it is like to play the game without playing it.

What we have here, is a game by a developer with a single title under their belt, that received good reviews. Their next game, while similar in genre, is entirely different in scope, presentation and mechanics. It is also exorbitantly higher priced than other titles that have been developed in a similar manner. There was already a great deal of consumer skepticism, and it is only exacerbated by the price point. It's some 267% more than Braid was back in the day. When you have a title that is unlike anything else, from a developer that has only ever developed one project, that is being billed at such a high price point, of course people are going to figure out alternative ways to experience the product for as little money as possible.

I'd be interested to see how often the game is being refunded on Steam. I think that'd be a valid measurement of how well the game is doing. If people are purchasing the game and keeping it, that's a good sign. If people are returning it in high numbers, it's a sign that consumer were skeptical and weren't impressed, or didn't think that the price point was justified.

Of course, this isn't a defense of the act of pirating the game, but an explanation as to why the rate of piracy for The Witness is so disproportionately high.

I'll toss in another analogy for the road: Let's assume the first game From Software ever made was Armored Core 2: Another Age. It was well reviewed and everyone loved it. It was new and revolutionary and came from a small developer just getting off their feet. Then they released nothing in the interim between 2001 and 2011, and with E3 2011 we hear about Dark Souls, and see some trailers. It looks amazing. Everyone is excited, but cautious. No one has done something like this before, and some people lack confidence in this new game. Then the bombshell drops that Dark Souls will retail for $160 USD. Would you be surprised if it was disproportionately highly pirated?

I feel sooo bad for these impoverished pirates people barely scraping by with their more than competently powerful PC rigs and high-speed internet connection, information-savvy enough to know when and how to pirate a game. Those poor, poor deprived people.

Quit being purposefully daft.
 
Well, not really. The Witness was priced what it was because it cost a lot of money to make. Given the kind of game it is, pricing it lower would increase the chances of not making his money back, while not really deterring piracy because people who do that will find any kind of justification to do so, which was the entire point of the post he responded to. The price just provides them with an excuse.

The implied solution to come from that train of thought is to just not make games like this since they cost a lot to make and people will pirate it when you ask a reasonable price. The solution is to cave to those extremely price sensitive thieves who probably won't buy the game regardless. Which isn't actually a solution, or particularly insightful.

alternate option: offer a pre-sale discount like many other games do. Get a player base that can and will spread the word about how good your puzzle game is, understanding that in order to make your money back you must appeal beyond the smaller segment of gamers who usually buy puzzle games.

Again, if their game had been available from Steam or GMG with a 25% pre-launch discount, I would have the game right now. But they didn't. So instead of making $25-$30 off of me, they'll make $15 at best when the inevitable deep discounts hit some months from now. Game isn't going anywhere, you know?
 
I'm loving the game so far, but I do agree with the vague assumption (without any marketing research facts in hand) that $20 would have made it a no-brainer for a lot more people.

Early word-of-mouth hype can get a lot of people to shell out $20 who don't even like puzzle games. This doesn't excuse piracy, but it does help explain it.
 
This thread fucking disgusts me.

Yeah, it's time. Lay me down a ban and get me the fuck outta here.

What's the problem?

We're all celebrating how well this game has sold on PC and PS4 (currently 4th in the Steam Top 10 games) in spite of the supposed detriment of piracy on sales.
 
Would them? It doesn't seem to be like that at all, actually. Denuvo games don't seem to be particularly super ultra mega good games, and neither did they have any kind of meaningful rise on sales because of being uncrackable.


Here's a thing: the great majority of people pirating isn't going to buy shit. The "lost sales" are negligible at best.

That "lost sales" thing is bs. Pirates will come up with any excuse to justify for not paying for a game. I am sure plenty would've paid full price if piracy wasn't an option. And I am sure plenty more would buy it on sale if price was really an issue.

Hmmm let me steal this Snickers cause I don't really like em and wouldn't actually pay for them.
 
Price issue is relative. At 40 dollars, the game is producing higher revenue. Now, would the market react far more favorably at 20 dollars ? It would need more than twice more the actual sales. And I believe this is a game that will show some legs in the end.

Indeed. Especially as it's shown that 'sale prices' drive sales exponentially . The current price leaves huge scope for large discounts which will drive sales in future, this may be the intention
 
You're either for piracy or you refuse to dignify those filthy theives with reasonable discussion. There's no middle ground, they're breaking the law.

so youve NEVER downloaded anything without paying for it right? music? pictures without fair use? nothing?

i doubt.

its a reality, pretending it doesnt exist or only exists because people are filthy thieves is so silly.
 
Indeed. Especially as it's shown that 'sale prices' drive sales exponentially . The current price leaves huge scope for large discounts which will drive sales in future, this may be the intention



Exactly. I'm willing to bet The Witness will be one of these premium indie games to come back at each sale and keep having long legs.
 
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