Support NeoGAF

[Hasphat'sAnts]

lmao

appeals to authority are one thing, but appealing to the sense of games publishers specifically is downright ridiculous

Are you telling me that analysts working at EA/Activision don't do their jobs? That's way more ridiculous than anything in this thread.

 

[Saty]

And what?

So Blow can't express his frustrations therein? Very strange line of reasoning here.

He should just shut up and accept it?

That's easy to say from your point of view, not that of someone who has put real creative and financial investments making the game.

It's a tweet, not an OP-ED on the dynamics of piracy in the PC market.

He's blowing off some steam.

Strange that people can't see this.

It's just premature and only going to be used by the internet as an excuse to spout nonsense about the platform that Blow doesn't agree with.

Ultimately, if anyone is so distraught about the possibly of their game being heavily pirated at launch, then they can use Denuvo or wrap the entire game in always-online stipulation.

 

[daveo42]

Demos hurt games that aren't very good. They also don't help well established games that have a following that would likely buy the next game in a series on the release date. Where demos can help is with great games that aren't well known. And of course every free-to-play game is the equivalent of a game with a demo so there are a lot of current examples there of demos working. The best example of a demo working that I can think of is the original Battlefield 1942. That game blew up and launched the franchise on the strength of its demo alone.

I have little insight on why people are pirating the game. I can only say that I don't value The Witness at $40. Reviews aren't going to help either because I'm going to deduct points from any review I read because it is a puzzle game and I generally don't like that genre. There are plenty of games out there that other people love that I can't be bothered with. I'm sure you feel the same. We all adjust any reviews we come across based on our general expectations for the genre of the game. That's why for me The Witness would pretty much need glowing reviews and a free demo before I ever gave it a chance.

Thanks for the heads up on the Battlefield comparison. Didn't know that.

Would you say it's more tied then to wanting to be a part of the conversation even if people don't value the game at its asking price?

 

[OrlanisWorks]

Because the digital world is like a replicator, it's not like direct theft. But there's a very big issue with how such logic is incompatible with how today's world works. This world ain't Star Trek. We need income to survive and live and continue doing whatever we do. Life has a price. So pirates can justify that it is like taking from an infinite library because the price sucks or whatever, but the person who made what they have stolen possible has needs that can't be legitimately met in the same way. It needs to be accepted that it is generally theft due to modern circumstances. Pay the man. If not now, pay him later at least.

 

[lynux3]

Are you telling me that analysts working at EA/Activision don't do their jobs? That's way more ridiculous than anything in this thread.

I know for a fact that they do and they're held accountable for any mishaps.

 

[cpp_is_king]

As long as sales and revenue remain as they are developer aren't going anywhere. Publishers and developer should focus more on protecting their revenue stream now as the PC is more important to their bottom line than it was 5-10 years ago.

Revenue != Profit.

The irony is that PC sales are strong and getting stronger.

What?

Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

 

[entremet]

It's just premature and only going to be used by the internet as an excuse to spout nonsense about the platform that Blow doesn't agree with.

Ultimately, if anyone is so distraught about the possibly of their game being heavily pirated at launch, then they can use Denuvo or wrap the entire game in always-online stipulation.

Blow still made his game available on PC, same with Braid.

If Blow were to say that he's no longer making PC games, I could get that jump.

 

[Sniffynose]

just a little



http://braid-game.com/news/2008/08/braid-is-the-highest-rated-xbla-game-ever-also-sales-data/


just read the entire thing.....its amazing

Yeah it's like the same thing again with him lmao.

 

[Lulubop]

Well, the good news is that it's still selling despite it.

Oh man they really should have held on to the PC version for months!

Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Literally the opposite of this is happening. Like what the fuck? Is this a troll? Are you trolling? Bait right? Is this post from 2007? You can't be this dumb, can you? Really dude? Please don't tell me you are.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Are you telling me that analysts working at EA/Activision don't do their jobs? That's way more ridiculous than anything in this thread.

I'm telling you that publishers make dumb decisions frequently enough to make that kind of thinking almost entirely irrelevant.

 

[patapuf]

The irony is that PC gamers are killing their own platform. No going back once devs stop producing for it entirely. Oh wells, right?

Yeah, mid tier and indie devs are really hurting on PC.

 

[Already Torn]

Are you telling me that analysts working at EA/Activision don't do their jobs? That's way more ridiculous than anything in this thread.

You can do your job properly and still make all the wrong decisions. Depends on who's at the top, how data is interpreted, etc.

Or are you saying its planned every time a game or movie flops?

 

[Gojeran]

It's copyright infringement. Digital does indeed not have any value since you're just buying a license.

I buy a license to use Windows and I'm glad I do else I'd have a really hard time making use of my computer. How does that license have no value? Because I can't re sell it? Therefore it's not mine? I don't understand your argument.

 

[Mupod]

Considering the recent Undertale milestone and the very similar existing example of Talos Principle, this thread is really strange to read even ignoring the 2007-tier PC piracy generalizations.

I only saw one person which is ok or defended piracy. Care to show me some others?

I mean I've certainly seen plenty of people trying to defend piracy, if you want to find that all you need to do is take one step off GAF. The unrepentant pirates they are targeting with those 'YOU ARE LITERALLY PIRATE HITLER' posts absolutely do exist. But outside of some serious word twisting, they aren't in this thread so it's some weird kinda internet shadowboxing.

 

[RPGam3r]

I'm more confused at the people who just start calling everyone thieves and scumbags instead of trying to find out why piracy may be particularly bad in the case of The Witness.

You're confused by people not liking people taking what they have no right to? I'll be honest in saying there is no "why" for me that will make the act of pirating any less "scumbaggy".

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Not a problem for consoles though, right? Sucks that PC is a piracy land for those that want to.

Maybe add an anti-piracy mode where they cannot solve the puzzle after an hour, no matter how right they solve it?

 

[Stormhammer]

some of what i'm reading makes it seem like some people are okay with piracy if a game is successful. what? lol

 

[ironmang]

I think he kinda priced himself out of a lot of initial sales, I imagine it will pick up a lot when it goes on sale.

Being digital only definitely makes me think twice about paying full price. Especially now with GCU I'm looking at paying $48 for a physical copy that I can (and likely will) trade in within the month for 2/3 or more of that back. Asking $40 for a title that I have access to but don't really own is a lot. Especially a puzzle game which I expect wouldn't get any more attention after the first play through.

That said I'll probably end up grabbing it at some point and possibly even this weekend for the full 40. Usually never consider it though and often wait for steam sale or ps plus freebie.

 

[Owari]

Piracy is gross. Support the artists who entertain you, for God's sake. If you want the game cheaper just wait like a month until it goes on sale. The "Zeitgeist" argument is stupid, if you can't afford a game at launch just watch a fucking play through.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Revenue != Profit.



Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Prove this or you're full of shit. Your entire argument relies on you proving this one point.

 

[Sylas]

Revenue != Profit.



Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

I think you're talking about data from a few years ago, man. There are more and more games coming to PC. The ports might suck (due to various factors), but they're still coming. There are still more indie games on PC. The PC gaming scene has been back for a while.

 

[KHlover]

Are you telling me that analysts working at EA/Activision don't do their jobs? That's way more ridiculous than anything in this thread.

They do it, but do they have to be right? I mean whoever analyses for Nintendo what the market wants out of a home console did do their job, but well...Gamecube and WiiU still happened.

 

[Maintenance]

You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Damn, all those japanese developers porting games to steam must be ghosts then.

Well, not really. The Witness was priced what it was because it cost a lot of money to make. Given the kind of game it is, pricing it lower would increase the chances of not making his money back, while not really deterring piracy because people who do that will find any kind of justification to do so, which was the entire point of the post he responded to. The price just provides them with an excuse.

The implied solution to come from that train of thought is to just not make games like this since they cost a lot to make and people will pirate it when you ask a reasonable price. The solution is to cave to those extremely price sensitive thieves who probably won't buy the game regardless. Which isn't actually a solution, or particularly insightful.

I'm not saying that piracy is good or that the price is wrong, I agreed with that post because I thought that just shutting down the conversation wouldn't work.

 

[Doug Heffernan]

stop releasing games for the PC

This type of post must be some kind of fan boy fuckery where they wish the game was a full PS4 exclusive.

 

[daveo42]

The thing is that for some people, watching it is good enough. If your friend watched you play TLOU and determined that he no longer needed to buy the game, that is a lost potential sale. If he wasn't able to experience the game in that way, he may have bought it.

And prevention of lost potential sales is the entire discussion.

I agree with that, but I think you're jumping a bit far when comparing Let's Plays to flat out piracy.

 

[Steel]

Revenue != Profit.



Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Eh, what? Wrong on all counts. I mean, you seem to have missed this earlier but:

Well, the good news is that it's still selling despite it.

Again, the sales for this game aren't better on console. And for the more general point, more developers are bringing their games to PC than ever before.

Not a problem for consoles though, right? Sucks that PC is a piracy land for those that want to.

Maybe add an anti-piracy mode where they cannot solve the puzzle after an hour, no matter how right they solve it?

*sigh* I mean, sure, you can believe that consoles have better sales for indie games since it doesn't have piracy, but it doesn't make it true.

 

[YianGaruga]

How exactly is it not stealing? If I go to a store and can't buy milk and take it from the store that is stealing as I understand the term. But if you can't afford or don't want to buy a game but download it illegally then it's not stealing? How? Is it because there is no actual physical item being taken? If that is the reason then apparently nothing entirely digital has any value whatsoever then and that's not an idea I can wrap my mind around. I don't buy a blu Ray disc with a game on it because I value the disc itself (which likely costs pennies to produce) I buy it because I value the digital information it contains.

Piracy "only" takes imaginary/potential money away.
If you steal a game from a store, that store already paid "x" for the disc (actual value of materials is irrelevant) so they have to pay "x" again to replace it. They're now at -x through your actions. That sucks.

With piracy, everyone is at 0 before and afterwards, because you make a copy of something and it still exists afterwards.

They're both wrong, but I'm able to differentiate how both actions affect people. I don't pirate, I actively convinced some of my friends not to pirate, yet I don't see the reason do demonize everyone who pirates. I do not believe the gaming industry would be a significantly healthier place with significantly more success stories without piracy.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Not a problem for consoles though, right? Sucks that PC is a piracy land for those that want to.

Maybe add an anti-piracy mode where they cannot solve the puzzle after an hour, no matter how right they solve it?

Sadly, it seems the piracy problem is exactly the same on consoles. Blow has said that the PS4 version is selling similar numbers.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

I know for a fact that they do and they're held accountable for any mishaps.

Right. Like, they can't go into a board meeting with just a single slide that says, "well, 4 million copies of the game were pirated in the first week and that's why the game failed, the end."

Some VP is going to demand to see materials that explain why they reached that conclusion.

People need to realize that the analysts working in corporate at these Publishers are not game devs from studios.

They're from MBB and the Big Four consulting firms.

You can do your job properly and still make all the wrong decisions. Depends on who's at the top, how data is interpreted, etc.

Or are you saying its planned every time a game or movie flops?

You're going to be wrong on occasion sure. But they're all isolated decisions made with the information available at that specific time.

The fact that we've had this debate for over 20 years and no publisher has ever retracted from their stance tells me everything I need to know.

And, if stuff like Denuvo wasn't working, they wouldn't be sticking with it.

This stuff costs money to the publishers. The benefit has to be: "retained sales"

 

[GhostTrick]

Revenue != Profit.



Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Who said that exactly ? Developpers slowly moving away from PC ? I just see them coming more and more, especially from Japan. Sales are everything and for now, PS4 and Steam sales of The Witness are comparable. Whats even your point ?

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

People are pirating $0.99 games on mobile for crying out loud. They'll pirate anything no matter what is the price.

 

[moggio]

Sadly, it seems the piracy problem is exactly the same on consoles. Blow has said that the PS4 version is selling similar numbers.

Must be all those people sharing the game with friends using PS4 Share Play ;(

 

[Seven4sses]

If devs are worried about piracy so much, they need to be more creative about combating it like Croteam did for Serious Sam 3. To me this seems like the only sensible way to stop this sort of thing without resorting to DRM which I know everyone has beef with.

I hope this doesn't impact his future works severely because I really think he has something unique here.

 

[Sniffynose]

I don't follow; isn't piracy happening on the PC platform? Doesn't he have the console market (which will probably be the majority of his sales) pirate proof?

Yes but he's said the same shit in the past, he just likes drumming up debate over nothing. His game is highly rated, but might not be everyone's cup of tea, so he claims pirates are the cause.

 

[YoshiMax]

Did Blow get a kicback from Sony for keeping this off XB1? That might prove to have been a mistake if he got nothing and did it due to being unhappy with their behaviour in the Braid era.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I buy a license to use Windows and I'm glad I do else I'd have a really hard time making use of my computer. How does that license have no value? Because I can't re sell it? Therefore it's not mine? I don't understand your argument.

Hence I edited it to "much less value". A physical product is technically often also just a license but contrary to digital it is transferable.

 

[SparkTR]

Revenue != Profit.



Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Profit as well as revenue. No developers are becoming reluctant to release on PC these days, especially not independant developers. Mainly due to how much Japanese support PC has been getting lately, an unprecedented amount of software is being released for the platform. There also these statistics from Gamescom.

 

[Guevara]

Sometimes I just read about games on GAF and don't buy them!

 

[Owari]

Way too much pro-piracy in here. I thought you guys liked games? Do you think game development is free? If everyone who pirated games didn't pirate, the overall quality of all games would rise dramatically. Stop making my games bad by taking money away from developers, ya scallywags.

 

[xxracerxx]

People are pirating 0.99 games on mobile for crying out loud. They'll pirate anything no matter what is the price.

Yup, not sure why people are not understanding this point.

 

[Lulubop]

Who said that exactly ? Developpers slowly moving away from PC ? I just see them coming more and more, especially from Japan. Sales are everything and for now, PS4 and Steam sales of The Witness are comparable. Whats even your point ?

So many more devs are putting stuff on PC, it's ridiculous someone would even come to that conclusion. Just check out the front page of Neogaf on a given day and you'll see a new Japanese dev entering and putting out something on PC. DAILY.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Sometimes I just read about games on GAF and don't buy them!

what the fuck is wrong with you

if we didn't have gaf those developers would have so much potential money

 

[Parsnip]

Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Exact opposite is actually happening.

 

[Movalpolos]

that is the definition of stealing, yes

It's copying and copyright infringement.

Ok so the word is being used out of context but then we're just arguing semantics.

 

[KHlover]

Way too much pro-piracy in here. I thought you guys liked games? Do you think game development is free? If everyone who pirated games didn't pirate, the overall quality of all games would rise dramatically. Stop making my games bad by taking money away from developers, ya scallywags.

Lol who here is pro piracy? Accepting it is a reality and discussing its impact on sales != being pro piracy

 

[BennyBlanco]

Revenue != Profit.



Hey don't look at me. Look at developers who are getting tired of piracy and are becoming more reluctant to release on the platform. You can point to numbers for this game or that game all day long but at the end of the day developers are slowly moving away from, not towards the platform.

Meanwhile, in the real world, PC is getting more japanese games and console ports than ever, and a AAA exclusive that will be a GOTY contender (XCOM2) in a few weeks.

 

[GhostTrick]

So many more devs are putting stuff on PC, it's ridiculous someone would even come to that conclusion. Just check out the front page of Neogaf on a given day and you'll see a new Japanese dev entering and putting out something on PC. DAILY.

Exactly ! Even niche stuff !
The whole premise of that thread is flawed since it implies:
-The Witness is selling bad (which is wrong)
-Piracy is hurting PC sales (when its selling as much as PS4 version)

Piracy is shit, there's no denying that. But to say its hurting the game right now is hasty.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Sometimes I just read about games on GAF and don't buy them!

Jesus allmighty.

WE'RE A BLACK HOLE FOR PROFITS.

Abandon ship.

 

[CthulhuPL]

Part of the piracy problem is lack of game demos. Why I can't test the game before purchase?

 

[Already Torn]

Lol who here is pro piracy? Accepting it is a reality and discussing its impact on sales != being pro piracy

You're either for piracy or you refuse to dignify those filthy theives with reasonable discussion. There's no middle ground, they're breaking the law.