• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Opinion Game Dev Platform Xbox Series S Could Present Challenges For Future Titles, Says Chief Technical Officer Of 4A Games

Papacheeks

Member
Jan 30, 2013
6,685
1,894
775
Watertown, NY
I love having an S as a streaming device, but as long as i have a XSX and ps5 no games will go near it. Series S should've been a digital XSX.

My thoughts are I would have given developers the option to develop their games for either system. If it's a indie title or something that already has a xbox one profile settings wise then they can put it on series s. But if there are too many caveat's then they can make it work on xbox series x and PR/packaging will tell customer what the game can run on. Similar to min/max spec on PC. Game should just say series x only title or something.
 

Leyasu

Member
Apr 25, 2014
5,815
2,707
720
Gamingbolt.

I knew it was them before clicking the thread

I wonder how long it will be before some games just don’t have a n XsS version
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: jroc74

DaGwaphics

Member
Dec 29, 2019
3,585
4,898
505
Challenging doesn't mean impossible that's the thing, obviously the S was going to bring more work with it. It could also improve performance on XSX down the line, much like how switch ports often result in performance improvements on PC/Xbox/PS4. The steps that are taken to optimize can be moved forward to the stronger boxes. The Ori dev talked about that in detail (how they learned to better save cycles on the Switch). Most of the time it's overcoming limitations that spurs progress the most.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,472
11,557
2,110
My point is its possible. May they need to allocate more resources to meet its day and date demands? Possibly. But writing it off as impossible is just incompetence.
Few things are impossible, but at some levels for third parties impractical/too costly is not much different from impossible.

If the budget is fixed you are either taking some away from both versions or you are allowing performance to suffer more than expected on XSS or limiting your scope with the XSX version.

Imo they should have just done an all digital X and forget about the S.
Agreed, it would have been a better choice and XSX would have gotten even better games (even for the cost conscious gamers [that would purchase the Digital Only XSX for say $399]).

So either they end up delaying S versions
Not possible though... single binary/SKU I think.
 
Last edited:
Oct 22, 2013
2,106
448
590
NYC-LA
It was to be expected by fanboys but the sad thing is that even some suppossedly "objective" gaming news sites and channels tried to portray it as if its only difference with XSX would be the resolution. Of course MS's official marketing gave them the "right" to make those stupid claims:


Does Series S run any games @ 120fps btw, Or even 1440 ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: scydrex

Kuranghi

Member
Apr 17, 2015
4,332
7,602
780
Higher resolution is going to be more and more important in the future as games have more micro detail so even if there weren't any technical issues with downgrading the game for XSS the lower resolution will make you miss out on a lot of the art in the game.
 
Last edited:
  • Triggered
Reactions: ArtemisClydeFrog

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
2,470
3,706
1,590
Also next gen engines will take advantage of VRS, SFS and Mesh Shaders which Series S has hardware support for.
Yes! This doesn't get mentioned enough. The XSS is not a box for people who want high end graphics; it is a box for people who want an entry level gaming. I am glad it exists because it will be at a price point the XSX and the PS5 will NEVER reach. The other thing to remember is that MS, the company that made the box, will have to deal with the same issues any other developer would have regarding the XSS. Maybe, just maybe if a developer is struggling getting their game to run on the XSS they should give MS a call and ask for some support. Developers pay MS for the license to make games for Xbox, MS should offer support to those developers to help them get their games out. It would be in everyone's best interest. If MS won't offer any support just make PS5 exclusives. That will get MS's attention.

Get the hint, you don't have much to win by buying an S, especially if you have a PRO/one X.
Games run better on the XSS than either the PS4 Pro or X1X. Plus XSS will get games that PS4 Pro and X1X will not. Not good advice.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
  • Like
Reactions: DJTHEGREY and Riky

Luipadre

Member
Dec 7, 2020
140
223
210
I think it will be a 900-1080p machine and its fine. The reconstruction techniques are getting better and better and we might get the AMD supersample tech aswell in the future. I bought an S a few weeks ago and its amazing what this cute little box can do imo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Riky

Airbus Jr

Member
Aug 12, 2018
4,955
8,408
750
Does any xbox gamers here are using xbox series s as their primary system? Unles youre very broke nobody is gettting this
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: Banjo64 and Calverz

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
608
766
480
Chile
Does any xbox gamers here are using xbox series s as their primary system? Unles youre very broke nobody is gettting this
Seems people here has never gamed on low-end PCs. I have a Radeon RX 550 with 8 GB of RAM and a 6th gen intel cpu, and I can play exactly the same games as those of you that have a GeForce RTX 3090 with a Core i9 CPU. I just have to dial down the graphics fidelity and resolution. For Series S, the issue will be exactly the same.

I seriously doubt people buying the Series S actually care about 4K or extreme fidelity, since that wasn't the target to begin with.

It's like those TVs that only have 1080p resolution: they're definetly not the best TVs on the market, but they are inexpensive and THAT's the market they're targeting, NOT the TV or gaming enthusiast.

In fact, I'm planning on getting a Series S simply because I have 1 or 2 hrs a day AT MOST to play videogames (and even that's a stretch), and because my TV is 1080p and I don't plan on changing it any time soon.
 
Last edited:

laser_printer

Member
Dec 10, 2019
2,273
3,714
490
Sactown
Stop chasing 4K with XSS then. I really don't get all that kind of XSS talk, just stick to native FullHD and appropriate textures and you're good to go. The console might be powerful enough today for 1440p or even 4K in few titles, but the consoles' inevitable future is 1080p anyway.
It’s just barely better than a 1X and in all honesty I don’t understand why they would even discontinue the 1X except for it to not have any Ray tracing capability. They should’ve made a discless Series X for 400 to compete with the all digital PS5 because as it stands it’s just not worthy the money even at 300 dollars but that’s just my opinion 🤷🏾‍♂️
 
Last edited:

Mister Wolf

Member
Sep 21, 2014
6,360
7,408
710
They would be better served ditching the raytracing on the Series S. 60fps, settings parody with the SX(besides raytracing), and the highest resolution you can get.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Calverz

Negotiator101

Member
Jan 24, 2021
770
883
300
One day it's the ram, one day it's the gpu.

Makes your wonder what's gonna happen once the cross gen period is over.
Or you could take it as what it is, just another platform. All versions have compromises one way or another, from the article, "We have a compromise solution right now, but I am not satisfied with it yet.”
 

Memorabilia

Member
Oct 25, 2013
4,867
702
595
Stop chasing 4K with XSS then. I really don't get all that kind of XSS talk, just stick to native FullHD and appropriate textures and you're good to go. The console might be powerful enough today for 1440p or even 4K in few titles, but the consoles' inevitable future is 1080p anyway.

This. XSS is realistically a 1080p console. I went in with that mindset and it's been a great secondary Xbox sitting right next to my Series X. I plan on getting another one for the guest room. For me it's the ultimate little Emulator machine with excellent Back Compat capabilities in a compact, super efficient form factor. I use Series X and S for different uses with some crossover and don't expect it to be something it is not. So far, I've used it far more than my Series X to be honest.
 

Schmick

Member
Aug 7, 2019
554
915
345
I love how Gaffers here are saying 'but future games will have RDNA2 features, so it won't be a problem' as if actual game developers at 4A didn't think of that before putting out this statement 😂
As if MS didn't think about it either.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Jun 1, 2013
8,529
2,711
770
Or you could take it as what it is, just another platform. All versions have compromises one way or another, from the article, "We have a compromise solution right now, but I am not satisfied with it yet.”
Right, but at some point IMO its:

Make XSS ports, or
Apply the same dev mentality to it like the One S and X.

At the end out the day, there were no One X games. They were all One S games but with better resolution, frame rates.

Even if starting, targeting the One X first. The other console has to be taken into consideration at some point during development.

As if MS didn't think about it either.
Right, and if the issues that might pop up with the Series S were factored into their goals, doesn't matter what the outcome of games, games development for it is.

Once again, these companies have specific design goals. At some point, we gotta stop taking PR as gospel.
 
Last edited:

Aion002

Member
Nov 21, 2019
2,247
4,373
545
SP - BR
As an Xbox Series S owner since launch... Yep! It's probably going to do that and most devs don't care, they just do the bare minimum and call it a day.


Don't get me wrong, the SS is great for it's price and a good way to get access to Game Pass and Xbox first party line up... However, in no way will be able to fulfill MS promises on the majority of games... Heck it doesn't even do it now with cross gen titles.

SS is a great secondary console for gamers, an excellent deal for casuals and probably a pain in the ass for game devs... But I don't think that MS cares about it, they knew what they were doing it, it's a shame that they were not upfront about it.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Hezekiah

Omeggos

Member
Jan 12, 2018
6,525
6,916
645
Either this is quickly becoming the general thought process for devs or this exact thread has been remade like five times since the damn thing was announced.

well, where there’s smoke there’s fire I guess
 
Last edited:

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
608
766
480
Chile
Even if starting, targeting the One X first. The other console has to be taken into consideration at some point during development.
Why?

If you scale enough things down, you can even play GTA V on a freacking celeron, and I don't see people here saying "booo... celerons will damage pc gaming!! booo!"

It's x86, dammit! It's scalable af. Us PC gamers have been doing that for decades.

In fact, I think it'll lead to some very interesting "downscale" options on future PC games, like the options "Control" have where you can choose the internal rendering resolution (I played it at 720p internal, upscaled to 1080p on my puny Radeon).
 
Last edited:
Jan 29, 2019
5,641
6,074
495
Challenging doesn't mean impossible that's the thing, obviously the S was going to bring more work with it. It could also improve performance on XSX down the line, much like how switch ports often result in performance improvements on PC/Xbox/PS4. The steps that are taken to optimize can be moved forward to the stronger boxes. The Ori dev talked about that in detail (how they learned to better save cycles on the Switch). Most of the time it's overcoming limitations that spurs progress the most.
Yes, but there is a point where a game already runs at 60fps with the best assets your art team built at or near 4k resolution... And somehow it just doesn't scale down as well as you figured it would/should.

Games will just end up looking close to what they look like on the one X, sometimes worst but with a better framerate... which kind of defeat the purpose of releasing a new console.

And how many people will get this version of the game anyway?

What I suspect will eventually happen is that the series S will be supported on paper with low efforts put in, very low resolutions and framerate drops up the wazoo.
 

Derktron

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,485
1,722
510
That's what a lazy developer would even say, I'm sorry but my argument still stands, if devs don't have ANY ISSUE WHATSOEVER in making PC games with many performances, why is making a game for Xbox Series S going to be an issue? I just don't understand this argument, what about devs who have to make sure their games run on an Intel i5 or a lower GPU? What then, how come we don't see this sort of companing when devs port games to PC? Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption.
 

Sejan

Member
Sep 28, 2018
829
1,015
520
Stop chasing 4K with XSS then. I really don't get all that kind of XSS talk, just stick to native FullHD and appropriate textures and you're good to go. The console might be powerful enough today for 1440p or even 4K in few titles, but the consoles' inevitable future is 1080p anyway.
I can't imagine it maintaining even 1080p in the future when devs are really squeezing PS5 and XSX to the max. I expect it to be a 720p30 box by the end of the generation, if that. Just look at how much the X1S has suffered compared to the PS4, and the power gap is even wider here by a pretty good margin. There is simply no way that the XSS doesn't kneecap the XSX in the long run unless they abandon hopes of reasonable performance from the Series S.

This power gap will become even worse if (when) a Pro model of the Series X is released spreading that gap even further.

Ultimately, I think that the Series S is going to hold the Series X back enough that the PS5 lower power level will ultimately be of little matter.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: DrAspirino

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
608
766
480
Chile
I can't imagine it maintaining even 1080p in the future when devs are really squeezing PS5 and XSX to the max. I expect it to be a 720p30 box by the end of the generation, if that. Just look at how much the X1S has suffered compared to the PS4, and the power gap is even wider here by a pretty good margin. There is simply no way that the XSS doesn't kneecap the XSX in the long run unless they abandon hopes of reasonable performance from the Series S.

This power gap will become even worse if (when) a Pro model of the Series X is released spreading that gap even further.

Ultimately, I think that the Series S is going to hold the Series X back enough that the PS5 lower power level will ultimately be of little matter.
You clearly haven't played on low-end PCs, have you? xD
 
  • Empathy
Reactions: CamHostage

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
6,262
1,045
1,585
Witcher 3 is a separate SKU, developed by a Switch ports specialist ... Do you see how this is different than asking the game to support XSX and XSS day and date with the same binary without being able to get additional money for the XSS specific port?

But I wonder if the Xbox product release system will allow two different binaries of an Xbox Series product?
If I remember correctly, Microsoft has already put forked versions of older games on XBL (there was some weird thing about a few 360 titles that were modified slightly when Xbox One came out for some reason, ultimately that was probably the same minor alterations as the uncapped framerate patches for current backward-compatibility, and I'm not sure if that was just a pre-patch or if there were separate 360/One builds?) They could do that on the digital store, and given that most of the assets of data and audio would be the same on the disc, maybe they cram both the SS and SX builds onto a disc (they're already packaging Xbox One and SX as one.)

I love having an S as a streaming device, but as long as i have a XSX and ps5 no games will go near it. Series S should've been a digital XSX.

Maybe Series S will eventually become a game streaming device too? If they can't get a game to run on Xbox Series S, they could still sell the product in full as an Xbox Series X game, but Series S users would only get a keycode to access it through an xCloud connection. It'd piss off a lot of consumers, but maybe at some point, the power of SS won't be enough and will hold back SX, and they'll just have to do it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mister D

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
6,262
1,045
1,585
There are some Japanese games that I was waiting for to drop support on Vita but then Switch came along and it gave them reason to keep using cheap games and just scale them to the PS4.

So yes, these lower spec version consoles either make devs stop trying to push tech too much or make them complacent to not bother enough.

That's such a false equivalency though. If a game is going to sell <200k copies in Japan and is questionable whether it'll get a worldwide distribution deal, they're not going to pour in the resources to make a "real" current-gen game. Your Ys, your Omega Labyrinth (and a billion other dungeoncrawlers,) your Acquire or Marvelous or NIS games... Vita and Switch weren't holding these games back; they were helping the game to exist.

And Xbox Series S will only hold back the types of games that Series S consumers (who have already bought in for compromises for the sake of cost) will buy. We'll see what happens when/if we get to the point that developers find themselves forced to make some drastic decisions, (hopefully the Xbox product distribution system can offer a multi-SKU alternatives,) but a developer in the business of making a high-end game will prioritize their target audience.

Eh no. There are real examples to what I’m talking about. Previous game being released for the Vita while the sequel dropped support and experienced massive improvement. The sequel to that then walked back on tech in order to release to the Switch. And no it was not any of those kind of throwaway games nor did it require Switch sales to keep on using the better graphical version.

...I don't meant to derail the tread, but you're going to have to name at least one of these games. I can't come up with anything that's three games in and spanned Vita, PS4, then Switch that had such wild swings. Atelier, God Eater, Legend of Heroes, and Tales are all at about the production level they are or ever would be. What else is there?

(Also, if you look at the Japanese sales charts, every Japanese game requires Switch sales (or at least significantly benefits from in a definitive majority of sales per platform.)
 
Last edited:
Dec 2, 2018
721
1,474
410
My point is its possible. May they need to allocate more resources to meet its day and date demands? Possibly. But writing it off as impossible is just incompetence.

Imo they should have just done an all digital X and forget about the S. But we're already here. So either they end up delaying S versions, adding more resources, or whatever they do. They'll have to figure something out. We're in cross gen territory, so we have at least 2 years before these consoles will be pushed to their capabilities.
If Microsoft is insisting that all games released on the X be released on the S as well developers are just going to release more PS5 exclusives.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: DrAspirino

dcmk7

Member
Mar 25, 2020
494
1,478
340
Yet another article from a developer talking about compromises for XSS.

It's becoming more and more obvious now that this generation would be better off without it.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
2,470
3,706
1,590
If Microsoft is insisting that all games released on the X be released on the S as well developers are just going to release more PS5 exclusives.
If those developers don't get any support from MS to make the games run on their hardware that is completely fair. They pay to release games on Xbox they should get support for that price. I have yet to hear that MS has refused to support the developers though.

Yet another article from a developer talking about compromises for XSS.

It's becoming more and more obvious now that this generation would be better off without it.
I'm glad the XSS exists the PS5 nor XSX will ever be cheaper and gaming should be accessible to everyone not just the elite. XSS wasn't designed for developers it was designed for gamers on a budget. More gamers playing games is good for the entire industry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrAspirino

DaGwaphics

Member
Dec 29, 2019
3,585
4,898
505
If those developers don't get any support from MS to make the games run on their hardware that is completely fair. They pay to release games on Xbox they should get support for that price. I have yet to hear that MS has refused to support the developers though.


I'm glad the XSS exists the PS5 nor XSX will ever be cheaper and gaming should be accessible to everyone not just the elite. XSS wasn't designed for developers it was designed for gamers on a budget. More gamers playing games is good for the entire industry.

The XSS should have some benefits on the PC side of things as well. Keeping older or lower-end GPUs in service longer, allowing more people access to the experience.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
2,470
3,706
1,590
The XSS should have some benefits on the PC side of things as well. Keeping older or lower-end GPUs in service longer, allowing more people access to the experience.
Indeed. Pretty sure the Xbox GDK has a unified development environment so developers aren't just making an XSX or an XSS game but PC versions as well. Not everyone has a high end device and everyone should get a chance to play the latest titles.
 
  • Like
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: DrAspirino and Riky

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
May 11, 2013
3,161
5,766
905
England
It’s just barely better than a 1X and in all honesty I don’t understand why they would even discontinue the 1X except for it to not have any Ray tracing capability.
It's far more than that.

One X can't support the Velocity Architecture, it has no SSD. The Zen2 CPU in Series S destroys the Jaguar in One X and Series S has support for the RDNA2 performance saving features, One X doesn't.
Microsoft said that it was also very difficult to Die shrink the One X and it was actually easier to just start again.

Series S is running some games at 120fps that just wasn't possible on One X.
 

killatopak

Member
Aug 29, 2013
14,034
3,171
770
That's such a false equivalency though. If a game is going to sell <200k copies in Japan and is questionable whether it'll get a worldwide distribution deal, they're not going to pour in the resources to make a "real" current-gen game. Your Ys, your Omega Labyrinth (and a billion other dungeoncrawlers,) your Acquire or Marvelous or NIS games... Vita and Switch weren't holding these games back; they were helping the game to exist.

And Xbox Series S will only hold back the types of games that Series S consumers (who have already bought in for compromises for the sake of cost) will buy. We'll see what happens when/if we get to the point that developers find themselves forced to make some drastic decisions, (hopefully the Xbox product distribution system can offer a multi-SKU alternatives,) but a developer in the business of making a high-end game will prioritize their target audience.
Eh no. There are real examples to what I’m talking about. Previous game being released for the Vita while the sequel dropped support and experienced massive improvement. The sequel to that then walked back on tech in order to release to the Switch. And no it was not any of those kind of throwaway games nor did it require Switch sales to keep on using the better graphical version.

I understand they do it to reach more audiences but it doesn’t stop the fact that it literally makes the game look worse. Stop making excuses for companies to make money. I am the customer so I think of myself first and foremost.
 

laser_printer

Member
Dec 10, 2019
2,273
3,714
490
Sactown
It's far more than that.

One X can't support the Velocity Architecture, it has no SSD. The Zen2 CPU in Series S destroys the Jaguar in One X and Series S has support for the RDNA2 performance saving features, One X doesn't.
Microsoft said that it was also very difficult to Die shrink the One X and it was actually easier to just start again.

Series S is running some games at 120fps that just wasn't possible on One X.
How would we honestly know what games could run at 120fps when very few developers actually bothered to enable it to begin with on the 1X vs a console where it’s basic spec has the support baked in? I’m sure if you unlock the frame rate at the same 1080p resolution in say BLOPS:CW it would hit it no problem.

My point still stands is that the Series S isn’t a good value proposition and that a discless SX would’ve been a better value for consumers, greater for developer’s and given them better options because as it stands it’s a hinderance.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
2,470
3,706
1,590
How would we honestly know what games could run at 120fps when very few developers actually bothered to enable it to begin with on the 1X vs a console where it’s basic spec has the support baked in? I’m sure if you unlock the frame rate at the same 1080p resolution in say BLOPS:CW it would hit it no problem.

My point still stands is that the Series S isn’t a good value proposition and that a discless SX would’ve been a better value for consumers, greater for developer’s and given them better options because as it stands it’s a hinderance.
Would a discless XSX be cheaper for MS to produce or for gamers to buy though? Sometimes 'value' is the price of the item. If I don't have $400+ to buy a gaming console there is nothing out there for me BUT the XSS. It fills a place in the market no other console does. It might not be for YOU but there are plenty of people out there who wanted the cheaper option. If a developer is having trouble contact MS, they have to make games for the exact same hardware.
 

laser_printer

Member
Dec 10, 2019
2,273
3,714
490
Sactown
Would a discless XSX be cheaper for MS to produce or for gamers to buy though? Sometimes 'value' is the price of the item. If I don't have $400+ to buy a gaming console there is nothing out there for me BUT the XSS. It fills a place in the market no other console does. It might not be for YOU but there are plenty of people out there who wanted the cheaper option. If a developer is having trouble contact MS, they have to make games for the exact same hardware.
If you don’t have 400 for a new console you probably don’t have 300 for one that makes no sense, especially considering that if they launched a discless 400 console it would be 300 eventually in a year or two and people looking for value would get a superior product. Microsoft shot development scope in the foot with it and it’s okay to admit rather than making excuses.

The X1 doesn’t even have exclusive games that reach PS4 exclusive visual quality and scope except for a couple later generation titles that were 1X enhanced.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
2,470
3,706
1,590
If you don’t have 400 for a new console you probably don’t have 300 for one that makes no sense, especially considering that if they launched a discless 400 console it would be 300 eventually in a year or two and people looking for value would get a superior product. Microsoft shot development scope in the foot with it and it’s okay to admit rather than making excuses.

The X1 doesn’t even have exclusive games that reach PS4 exclusive visual quality and scope except for a couple later generation titles that were 1X enhanced.
The XSS could reach $200. The PS5 and XSX won't. Ever. That extra $100 could pay for Gamepass which would allow that same gamer to have lots of games to play regardless of the better looking PS4 games that cost more money and won't really be that noticeable on a 1080p screen. The XSS provides 'value' more expensive options don't. Not everyone has a 4k TV and loves raytracing.