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Opinion Game Dev Platform Xbox Series S Could Present Challenges For Future Titles, Says Chief Technical Officer Of 4A Games

DarkMage619

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I don't care a smidgen if they get new games or not, nor do I care for deflection like this. Weaker hardware stifles ambition. Dance, jump, spin, regurgitate word salads all day long. Weaker hardware stifles ambition. No amount of marketing talk changes that weaker hardware stifles ambition. Which is my only point.
You can't prove your point. The XSS is weaker in GPU but has all the same features. You can't prove it stifles ambition when you can't point to a game XSS prevented from existing. The good thing is there is a control. The PS5 doesn't have a lower speced device. Since it is so much stronger all games running on it should exceed anything on an Xbox. I guess we'll see what the future holds.
 
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laser_printer

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I don't care a smidgen if they get new games or not, nor do I care for deflection like this. Weaker hardware stifles ambition. Dance, jump, spin, regurgitate word salads all day long. Weaker hardware stifles ambition. No amount of marketing talk changes that weaker hardware stifles ambition. Which is my only point.
He doesn’t get this and thinks for some reason and thinks it’s as simple as turning down settings. The power difference means you may very well be seeing switch type “ports” to it. He didn’t even have a response when I explained the power difference in the X1 and PS4 meant by the time X1 was clear in that X1 couldn’t even produce a game that beat mid-gen exclusives like HZD or UC4 in scope or quality.
 
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laser_printer

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You can't prove your point. The XSS is weaker in GPU but has all the same features. You can't prove it stifles ambition when you can't point to a game XSS prevented from existing. The good thing is there is a control. The PS5 doesn't have a lower speced device. Since it is so much stronger all games running on it should exceed anything on an Xbox. I guess we'll see what the future holds.
Scalebound was cancelled because of it. If Sony moneyhatted it would exist
 

Riky

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Lol. How can it run those games without a disc drive exactly? Buying those games again? And you know what I meant, the SS is barely an upgrade over the 1X and a discless SX would’ve been a better option, point blank. As it stands now the SS is just an (worse) 1X with less options (no disc, no 4K disc playback, uglier than a 1X, basically a cable box disguised as a game console since it’s used to plug Gamepass, used 1X sell for higher prices than a new SS but hey, you have an SSD with HALF the storage space with proprietary SSDs that if you want to expand put you in the range of a SX).

How do I play my PS4 discs on a Digital PS5?

If you own a X1X and an XSS like I do you will find very quickly the Series S is a more competent machine. Valhalla it runs at 60fps v 30fps on X1X, same for Hitman 3. Watch Dogs has Ray Tracing on Series S, not on One X.
Halo MCC, Dirt 5 and WarZone among others run at 120fps on Series S v 60fps on X1X.
So it's obviously superior.
 

dvdvideo

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And those who don't own a series s continue to bash it despite the facts:

It has a lot of next gen features that the previous generation lacked.

Buyers are happy with it.

Most developers basically have no issue with it.

It's just a bunch of people on this board that are confused as to the hardware inside of it.
It's OK, just relax, your precious pc, ps5, or series x is still better, you can sleep at night knowing you are the best.
 

DarkMage619

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And those who don't own a series s continue to bash it despite the facts:

It has a lot of next gen features that the previous generation lacked.

Buyers are happy with it.

Most developers basically have no issue with it.

It's just a bunch of people on this board that are confused as to the hardware inside of it.
It's OK, just relax, your precious pc, ps5, or series x is still better, you can sleep at night knowing you are the best.
Haters gonna hate. Particularly easy when it comes to boogeyman MS. Oh well I'm looking forward to see what games come out this generation.
 
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laser_printer

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How do I play my PS4 discs on a Digital PS5?

If you own a X1X and an XSS like I do you will find very quickly the Series S is a more competent machine. Valhalla it runs at 60fps v 30fps on X1X, same for Hitman 3. Watch Dogs has Ray Tracing on Series S, not on One X.
Halo MCC, Dirt 5 and WarZone among others run at 120fps on Series S v 60fps on X1X.
So it's obviously superior.
A GTX 1060 runs the MCC games at an average of 144 FPS @ 2560x1440p, the gpu in the 1X is more powerful than that so let’s not act like it CANT do these things.


The same GPU running at higher settings in Valhalla produces a 1440p image above 30fps. I’m sure if you knocked it down to console settings it would hit 60 easily as well.


Also the medium still runs the same on a spinning 7200rpm drive. Developers clearly didn’t give a shit about the 1Xs capabilities to do things like VRR and 120fps till the Series S/X came about.

The SS is a discless 1X with a Ray tracing capable GPU.
 

DarkMage619

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A GTX 1060 runs the MCC games at an average of 144 FPS @ 2560x1440p, the gpu in the 1X is more powerful than that so let’s not act like it CANT do these things.


The same GPU running at higher settings in Valhalla produces a 1440p image above 30fps. I’m sure if you knocked it down to console settings it would hit 60 easily as well.


Also the medium still runs the same on a spinning 7200rpm drive. Developers clearly didn’t give a shit about the 1Xs capabilities to do things like VRR and 120fps till the Series S/X came about.

The SS is a discless 1X with a Ray tracing capable GPU.
Not true. The X1X can't do variable rate shading, has no sampler feedback streaming, has no raytracing at all, and can't run The Medium in any capacity. More importantly the X1X has a console upgrade its called the XSX. The fact that the XSS out classes it already proves it is the next gen console it claims to be.
 
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GHG

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shocked blunt talk GIF


Just drop the resolution they said.
 

Riky

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A GTX 1060 runs the MCC games at an average of 144 FPS @ 2560x1440p, the gpu in the 1X is more powerful than that so let’s not act like it CANT do these things.


The same GPU running at higher settings in Valhalla produces a 1440p image above 30fps. I’m sure if you knocked it down to console settings it would hit 60 easily as well.


Also the medium still runs the same on a spinning 7200rpm drive. Developers clearly didn’t give a shit about the 1Xs capabilities to do things like VRR and 120fps till the Series S/X came about.

The SS is a discless 1X with a Ray tracing capable GPU.

None of that is relevant at all.
You were comparing the One X to the Series S and I've showed you a load of examples where Series S outperforms it despite drawing less power because the Zen 2 CPU destroys Xbox One X.
 

laser_printer

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Not true. The X1X can't do variable rate shading, has no sampler feedback streaming, has no raytracing at all, and can't run The Medium in any capacity. More importantly the X1X has a console upgrade its called the XSX. The fact that the XSS out classes it already proves it is the next gen console it claims to be.
You literally love talking about Ray tracing when again, you said the Series S was for people who didn’t care about that but now they do lol.
 

laser_printer

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None of that is relevant at all.
You were comparing the One X to the Series S and I've showed you a load of examples where Series S outperforms it despite drawing less power because the Zen 2 CPU destroys Xbox One X.
It could easily do it is my point which means that it WILL gimp games in the future. As it stands nothing about the improvements on games in the SS aren’t anything developers couldn’t already do on the 1X if they tried but considering the place Microsoft was in last generation it only makes sense why we didn’t see more games running to their maximum like they should’ve.
 

Riky

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It could easily do it is my point which means that it WILL gimp games in the future. As it stands nothing about the improvements on games in the SS aren’t anything developers couldn’t already do on the 1X if they tried but considering the place Microsoft was in last generation it only makes sense why we didn’t see more games running to their maximum like they should’ve.

It doesn't matter how hard they tried they couldn't do the Ray Tracing in Watch Dogs, so wrong.
 
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ZehDon

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... The SS is a discless 1X with a Ray tracing capable GPU.
Exactly correct... apart from the:
  • GPU architecture
  • CPU architecture
  • RAM
  • Built in SSD
  • On-board decompression hardware
  • On-board audio hardware
So yeah, apart from the APU, RAM, Storage and Audio components, they're basically the same machine. Why did Microsoft even bother making it when its so close to the 1X except for all the ways it isn't?

🤡
 

DarkMage619

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You literally love talking about Ray tracing when again, you said the Series S was for people who didn’t care about that but now they do lol.
That is why many developers drop the feature. It's not that it can't do it, it's that some developers don't want to take the time to make it work. The fact that it CAN do it shows its a next gen console that happens to be the most affordable on the market. I don't know why you can't understand this. It is still a class above the X1X despite it not running games in 4K.

It could easily do it is my point which means that it WILL gimp games in the future. As it stands nothing about the improvements on games in the SS aren’t anything developers couldn’t already do on the 1X if they tried but considering the place Microsoft was in last generation it only makes sense why we didn’t see more games running to their maximum like they should’ve.
Where did you get the idea that the X1X could do raytracing man? Do you actually know the technical differences between the X1X and XSS? There are already games running at 60fps on the XSS and 30 on the X1X. Where did you get the idea the XSS was gimping anything? The XSS version may be gimped in comparison to the XSX version but the XSS isn't holding anything back. Again even this developer didn't make that claim yet you are. I guess you would know better huh?
 
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SenjutsuSage

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That is why many developers drop the feature. It's not that it can't do it, it's that some developers don't want to take the time to make it work. The fact that it CAN do it shows its a next gen console that happens to be the most affordable on the market. I don't know why you can't understand this. It is still a class above the X1X despite it not running games in 4K.


Where did you get the idea that the X1X could do raytracing man? Do you actually know the technical differences between the X1X and XSS? There are already games running at 60fps on the XSS and 30 on the X1X. Where did you get the idea the XSS was gimping anything? The XSS version may be gimped in comparison to the XSX version but the XSS isn't holding anything back. Again even this developer didn't make that claim yet you are. I guess you would know better huh?

Xbox Series S is clearly a class above Xbox One X, not even a question. Developers will have more work to do, having to try to optimize and do work for two xbox consoles instead of one, but Xbox Series X will always be fine and run at whatever its spec is able to handle. Series S will be downscaled visual to accommodate the same gaming experience in a less enthusiast package.
 

RaySoft

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Seems people here has never gamed on low-end PCs. I have a Radeon RX 550 with 8 GB of RAM and a 6th gen intel cpu, and I can play exactly the same games as those of you that have a GeForce RTX 3090 with a Core i9 CPU. I just have to dial down the graphics fidelity and resolution. For Series S, the issue will be exactly the same.
You just illustrated the point right there.
Games on the PC platform have always been held back by the lowest common denominator. Imagine how devs could have designed games if the only target was a i9/3090.
This has always been one of the consoles strengths, fixed hardware.

MS is playing the PC game this gen, while Sony still believes in console generations. (i.e. fixed hardware)
 
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You just illustrated the point right there.
Games on the PC platform have always been held back by the lowest common denominator. Imagine how devs could have designed games if the only target was a i9/3090.
This has always been one of the consoles strengths, fixed hardware.

MS are playing the PC game this gen, while Sony still believes in console generations.

For some reason this whole time I thought you and Md Ray Md Ray were the same person. When Md would post I would wonder "where did the Cerny avatar go?"
 
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Hezekiah

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I mean it's already at 1080p in cross-gen titles, once assets are built from the ground up as devs plateau towards next-gen only, this machine will push towards more cutbacks.

Apart from most rabid fanboys, everyone saw the problem when they announced this box. It's gonna be obsolete half-way through the gen never mind full.
That's exactly it. The specs look mediocre by 2020 standards, and you're looking at a seven year generation.

It's not quite a Switch situation, but this was ludicrously touted as a 1440p console when in reality it's a waste of time except to the very most budget-conscious gamers thanks to its limited GPU and RAM.
 

dvdvideo

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You just illustrated the point right there.
Games on the PC platform have always been held back by the lowest common denominator. Imagine how devs could have designed games if the only target was a i9/3090.
This has always been one of the consoles strengths, fixed hardware.

MS is playing the PC game this gen, while Sony still believes in console generations. (i.e. fixed hardware)

Except the part you are missing here is the vast majority of series x games are already being made for pc, so having to develop for the xss makes zero difference to any game being made.
 

dvdvideo

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Bottlenecks. Learn about them.

Series S. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

Lol, hardly. We've been over this.

The weakest hardware most developers, in order, that most developers have to deal with, in order:

Switch
Xbox one
Ps4
Pc (low end spec)
XSS
Pc (mid level spec)
Ps5/XSX
High end pc

To say nothing of the fact that series s is a closed format that is much easier to optimize for than thousands of potential pc configs.
 

iHaunter

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Stop chasing 4K with XSS then. I really don't get all that kind of XSS talk, just stick to native FullHD and appropriate textures and you're good to go. The console might be powerful enough today for 1440p or even 4K in few titles, but the consoles' inevitable future is 1080p anyway.
XSS is a good value, but I still firmly believe it was a mistake. They should've done what Sony did with just a $100 reduction in the digital version.

It's going to hold back exclusives on the XSX so much I fear.
 

DarkMage619

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XSS is a good value, but I still firmly believe it was a mistake. They should've done what Sony did with just a $100 reduction in the digital version.

It's going to hold back exclusives on the XSX so much I fear.
I can see the XSS being held back graphically but I've seen no evidence that level design or AI would be hampered on the XSS. I doubt the XSS graphics will hold back the XSX so it's all much ado about nothing. Having a lower cost console is good for consumers. Nvidia isn't holding back the 3090 by making the 3060.
 

Captain Toad

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Lol, hardly. We've been over this.

The weakest hardware most developers, in order, that most developers have to deal with, in order:

Switch
Xbox one
Ps4
Pc (low end spec)
XSS
Pc (mid level spec)
Ps5/XSX
High end pc

To say nothing of the fact that series s is a closed format that is much easier to optimize for than thousands of potential pc configs.

If you're going to include previous generations, why not also list Series S as being more powerful than the Atari 2600, Nintendo 64 and Sega 32x?
 
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dvdvideo

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If you're going to include previous generations, why not also list Series S as being more powerful than the Atari 2600, Nintendo 64 and Sega 32x?

Well let's see, hmmm, the platforms I listed are actually still seeing games being developed and released for them. So there's that. An active platform of 100 million and 50 million users isn't going to be ignored just because you bought a new console. Lol
 
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AmuroChan

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This really won't be a problem until devs have dropped last gen platforms, which is probably another year or two away. If there's a game where the Series S really can't run the Series X version, then just have the S run the last-gen version and upscale it to 1440p,.
 

dvdvideo

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The point is, you're using the previous generation hardware as a reason the Series S isn't underpowered.

First of all, it's not underpowered except for some sort of imaginary standard you give it.
Second, people keep saying "it's the weakest" platform that developers have to account for - that's 100% inaccurate. And clearly it is more powerfull than the previous generation of hardware.
 

DarkMage619

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If you're going to include previous generations, why not also list Series S as being more powerful than the Atari 2600, Nintendo 64 and Sega 32x?
Are you sure about that? People here think there has never been a weaker console than the XSS. I'd like to see the benchmarks to be certain.
 

Captain Toad

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people keep saying "it's the weakest" platform that developers have to account for - that's 100% inaccurate. And clearly it is more powerfull than the previous generation of hardware.

Only if developers develop games for last generation the entire new gen, which would suck.
 
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Captain Toad

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Are you sure about that? People here think there has never been a weaker console than the XSS. I'd like to see the benchmarks to be certain.
No other generation had a model of a next generation console that had specs on par with the previous gen.

Xbox One X was 6 TF. Series S is 4 TF. That's not good. That pretty much ensures every Xbox Series X game the entire generation will be the same as a cross-gen game.
 

DarkMage619

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No other generation had a model of a next generation console that had specs on par with the previous gen.

Xbox One X was 6 TF. Series S is 4 TF. That's not good. That pretty much ensures every Xbox Series X game the entire generation will be the same as a cross-gen game.
And that's where you are wrong. The XSS has several features missing from last generation. Plenty of Sony fans here will tell you teraflops are not everything. Plus the XSS has generational leap ahead in CPU and SSD speeds. If you read the thread there are several games that perform worse on the X1X than the XSS. The XSS will be fine if the developers use the full set of features available to them.
 

dvdvideo

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The point is, you're using the previous generation hardware as a reason the Series S isn't underpowered.

First of all, it's not underpowered except for some sort of imaginary standard you give it.
Second, people keep saying "it's the weakest" platform that developers have to account for - that's 100% inaccurate. And clearly it is more powerfull than the previous generation
Only if developers develop games for last generation the entire new gen, which would suck.

Well they probably will for at least the next 2-3 years, and pc longer. And switch probably even longer (or the super switch, which will still be much less powerrfull than xss).
It is what it is.......no need to make the xss the scapegoat for this issue......

I still agree in terms of raw value, the ps5/XSX offer a better buy currently if you can find one, but the series S will be an amazing gaming value once it drops to $199. I actually think ms planned to launch it at $249 but decided due to hardware shortages they didn't have to.
 
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dvdvideo

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No other generation had a model of a next generation console that had specs on par with the previous gen.

Xbox One X was 6 TF. Series S is 4 TF. That's not good. That pretty much ensures every Xbox Series X game the entire generation will be the same as a cross-gen game.

It's also not completely fair to compare to xbox one x, most buyers for a series s aren't coming from that, they are coming from a ps3, xbox 360, or a base xbox or ps4. Any of this machines are trounced by the series s.
Plus as dark mage is saying, there are other next gen features in the s (ssd, cpu, gpu), its not just about raw tf. If that were true the series x would be trouncing the ps5.
 

Spokker

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First of all, it's not underpowered except for some sort of imaginary standard you give it.
Microsoft gave it a standard, and that was 1440p at 60 fps with the same graphical feature set as the Series X. This was communicated both in the media and Microsoft's own marketing materials.


Microsoft surprised everyone with this smaller, cheaper next-gen Xbox, promising that the Series S is “designed to play games at 1440p at 60 frames per second.”

Unfortunately, in the early going it has not reached that standard. And it's important that one of the poster children for ray tracing, Control, doesn't feature it on Series S. The standard is real, and prospective Series S buyers should be aware of it.

It's fine to reevaluate a console for what it is, not what they promised, and still conclude it's a good purchase when all factors are taken into account. I only take issue with the idea that people are projecting an arbitrary standard onto it. That is simply false.
 
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dvdvideo

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Microsoft gave it a standard, and that was 1440p at 60 fps with the same graphical feature set as the Series X. This was communicated both in the media and Microsoft's own marketing materials.




Unfortunately, in the early going it has not reached that standard. And it's important that one of the poster children for ray tracing, Control, doesn't feature it on Series S. The standard is real, and prospective Series S buyers should be aware of it.

It's fine to reevaluate a console for what it is, not what they promised, and still conclude it's a good purchase when all factors are taken into account. I only take issue with the idea that people are projecting an arbitrary standard onto it. That is simply false.

We've been over this too, are you posting about the 120hz at 4k the ps5 and series x are advertising but not delivering too?
 

Spokker

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We've been over this too, are you posting about the 120hz at 4k the ps5 and series x are advertising but not delivering too?
The Xbox Series X has its own standard it did not deliver on. That is, it was billed as the console of "no compromises" that would free developers from using solutions such as dynamic resolution. That was untrue, obviously, but it's less of a problem for Series X in the long run as it continues to be a top of the line console. Whatever promises it failed to live up to, it still has to lead along with PS5.

However, I don't think it was understood to promise 4K at 120fps, as those discussions were a little more grounded in reality. The link I provided earlier shows they billed it as 4K at 60 FPS, and 120 fps for the most competitive games.

Series S was understood to possess feature parity with Series X, simply at a lower resolution. Some who were skeptical of this were insulted and downvoted on Reddit, for example. But Control at 900p with no ray tracing on Series S is a tough pill to swallow. 505 Games originally stated on its support page that this was a "limitation of the hardware, not the game," but this line was removed.

 
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dvdvideo

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I think they all embellished on the final delivery, as they always do. The ps5 and XSX can't reliably deliver 4k at 60hz either.
Regress of 100% feature parity, the s is still a powerful little machine, a nice upgrade fir older console owners or a smaller TV or bedroom. Most buyers won't care if some games don't have rt, or are 900p.
 
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Spokker

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Here's the question I hesitate to ask, but here goes nothing. Could the Xbox One X run Control at 900p/60 fps?

My understand is that the One X runs Control at 1440p at a fairly consistent 30 fps with some dips here and there. That the possibility is even there is a testament to what a great piece of hardware the One X is.
 

DarkMage619

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Here's the question I hesitate to ask, but here goes nothing. Could the Xbox One X run Control at 900p/60 fps?

My understand is that the One X runs Control at 1440p at a fairly consistent 30 fps with some dips here and there. That the possibility is even there is a testament to what a great piece of hardware the One X is.
I doubt it. The X1X still has the same jaguar cores the X1 has. Framerate many times is linked to CPU power over GPU. Even in that the X1X didn't run control at 4K either did it?

I also disagree with your assertion that the XSS did not meet the standard MS set for it. Their 1440p claim should have been 'up to' 1440p. With regards to the feature set it DOES have parity with the XSX. Name a feature it lacks outside of the blu ray drive?

If a developer chooses to not implement those features that is not the consoles fault. MS games have run at 120/60fps and at 1440p. 3rd parties are hit and miss. If you want to knock them for not meeting resolution targets fair enough but I am not aware of it lacking any of the next gen features the XSX has.
 
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dcmk7

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I think they all embellished on the final delivery, as they always do. The ps5 and XSX can't reliably deliver 4k at 60hz either.
Regress of 100% feature parity, the s is still a powerful little machine, a nice upgrade fir older console owners or a smaller TV or bedroom. Most buyers won't care if some games don't have rt, or are 900p.
What about the buyers who bought the machine based on the resolution being the only difference, only to then see next gen games released with other features stripped away? Including frame rate.

The machine is a halfway house between last gen and this generation and it has became obvious a little while ago that it's existence isn't welcome. It can't even keep up with its promises, even at this very early stage.

It seems every other week now we (yet again) get another developer frustrated with having to deal with the limitations of the XSS, yet more talk of scaling back on their vision/ambition to support a box they are obligated to.. If they won't support it they won't get to release on its big, healthier, brother.

Once the sales for it dry up it will be quietly swept under the rug. Just like Kinect.
 

Futaleufu

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If developers are willing to make 360p ports for the Switch then I'm sure the XSS will be just fine.
 

DarkMage619

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3,833
1,600
What about the buyers who bought the machine based on the resolution being the only difference, only to then see next gen games released with other features stripped away? Including frame rate.

The machine is a halfway house between last gen and this generation and it has became obvious a little while ago that it's existence isn't welcome. It can't even keep up with its promises, even at this very early stage.

It seems every other week now we (yet again) get another developer frustrated with having to deal with the limitations of the XSS, yet more talk of scaling back on their vision/ambition to support a box they are obligated to.. If they won't support it they won't get to release on its big, healthier, brother.

Once the sales for it dry up it will be quietly swept under the rug. Just like Kinect.
I'd take that bet. Have you actually talked to the people on this forum who actually have the console? Are they all claiming it needs to be dropped? The loudest opponents are Sony fans for some strange reason. They of course are affected the least so its odd. If the XSS is going to cause MS to fail sit back and watch MS fall apart.