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Opinion Analysis Hardware Without any details, I Feel 'Lockhart' Will (In Some Way) Hold Back The More Ambitious Next-Generation Games...

joe_zazen

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That's my thinking too, although some of the talk from MS makes me think there might be a slight chance at $399 for the XsX, but I'm fine with $499. It's a hell of a console for that price.

$399 xsx means xss would need to be $199. If ms is willing to eat $200+ per box, gen is over before it starts. I am also really interested to see if their rent to own plan shifts units. Being able to walk out if a store with a xss and 100+ games for $15, who can compete with that?

edit: answer is Nintendo, lol.
 
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xool

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$399 xsx means xss would need to be $199. If ms is willing to eat $200+ per box, gen is over before it starts. I am also really interested to see if their rent to own plan shifts units. Being able to walk out if a store with a xss and 100+ games for $15, who can compete with that?

edit: answer is Nintendo, lol.

Can't see it. Most parts can't be cut anyway - half size APU and 2GB less memory and what else?

Maybe discless (save $20) and lock people into digital purchases for extra revenue. Except nobody wanted/bought the Xbox SAD afaik. And is your target audience (cheaper console) the same as people who don't want used games - the answer is no.
 

John254

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Can't see it. Most parts can't be cut anyway - half size APU and 2GB less memory and what else?

Maybe discless (save $20) and lock people into digital purchases for extra revenue. Except nobody wanted/bought the Xbox SAD afaik. And is your target audience (cheaper console) the same as people who don't want used games - the answer is no.
Source for "nobody bought Xbox SAD"?

I think that Xbox SAD was created exactly to test if there is market demand for discless console to determine if Lockhart will be shipped with or without disc mechanic
 

ethomaz

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And?

That doesn't mean developers are going to prioritize that version of the console. RDR2 proves thats.

Just because you dont understand it doesnt mean we throw evidence to the contrary to the way side.
You quoted me lol
And you ask and?

Cool example now Imagine RDR2 not being held by Xbox One :messenger_face_screaming:
 
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Agnostic2020

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Is there an advantage to doing this rather than just outputting native 1800p? Seems like I would prefer native resolutions over CB rendering, unless both these consoles really can come close to emulating DLSS 2.0 (which I’m not convinced they can), in which case I’m all for AI upscaling
Well for CB rendering u need to hit a minimum of 1800 p native then if u do the the CB to 4k from 1800p the game will look insanely close to native 4k and clean . If the game is say 1440p natively and then u do CB to 4k then CB artifacts happens in movement which is not really pretty.
 
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HeisenbergFX4

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I thought you told us PS5 was 11 maybe 12 TF. With a low ball figure that was still higher than the 10.3 TF peak we've got.

Why don't you just stop. Seriously.

I will gladly stop as you are right.

I said from day 1 the XsX was the most powerful and PS5 was within 10%.

I missed by about 5% of said power so yes I was consistently wrong, way off base.

I will stop sharing info here moving forward.
 

joe_zazen

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Can't see it. Most parts can't be cut anyway - half size APU and 2GB less memory and what else?

I agree, but...

MS can just sell hardware at a loss if they see a return happening down the line. If they want to dominate like they do in other sectors, they will need to get predatory and force others out while erecting barriers to entry.

I get that they haven't done that in the Past. One must remember though that MS was under DoJ oversight until 2012 for anti-competitive behaviour, and the US is quite tolerant of giant, market distorting tech companies in 2020.

They very well could make a play for market domination. We won't really know if this is the scenario until we see pricing and how much exclusive content they have bought. It would be quite expensive to push sony and Google out, but possible. Fun times.
 
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You quoted me lol
And you ask and?

Cool example now Imagine RDR2 not being held by Xbox One :messenger_face_screaming:

Yeah as in and whats the point youre trying to make with the post i quoted?

How have you come to the ludicrous conclusion that RDR2 was held back by the X1? Ill wait for your evidence.

"Cool example now Imagine RDR2 not being held by Xbox One "

You mean the PC version thats even more visually impressive than the console counter parts?
 
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joe_zazen

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I thought you told us PS5 was 11 maybe 12 TF. With a low ball figure that was still higher than the 10.3 TF peak we've got.

Why don't you just stop. Seriously.

let it go. He is a good poster who had two friends that gave him conflicting opinions. Iirc, sony friend hinted at 10.5, and that is what we pretty much got.
 

joe_zazen

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Yeah as in and whats the point youre trying to make with the post i quoted?

How have you come to the ludicrous conclusion that RDR2 was held back by the X1?

"Cool example now Imagine RDR2 not being held by Xbox One "

You mean the PC version thats even more visually impressive than the console counter parts?


yeah, you can adjust gfx sliders, that doesn't mean x1 wasn't boatanchor for actual game design, scope of world, and complexity of game logic.
 
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xool

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I agree, but...

MS can just sell hardware at a loss if they see a return happening down the line. If they want to dominate like they do in other sectors, they will need to get predatory and force others out while erecting barriers to entry.

I get that they haven't done that in the Past. One must remember though that MS was under DoJ oversight until 2012 for anti-competitive behaviour, and the US is quite tolerant of giant, market distorting tech companies in 2020.

They very well could make a play for market domination. We won't really know if this is the scenario until we see pricing and how much exclusive content they have bought. It would be quite expensive to push sony and Google out, but possible. Fun times.

Though MS has a track record (embrace/extend/extinguish etc) they don't have a record for eating a loss (that's commonplace in the dot com boom companys like amazon/google/youtube etc) - mostly because they were a software company and cost to manufacture of software is ~$0.

They've always been monopolistic, but their methods have been different to more modern tech giants. "Single vendor discounts", lock in, etc - stuff consumers don't experience directly. (I can't think of an example anyway, before gamepass)

Even now I'm not sure if they understand gaming - they're not really succeeding as a media company like Sony does, and they got burnt on Kinect - which they clearly failed to read correctly. It looks like part of the corporate culture doesn't understand nuturing creative talent. Google's path to near monopoly was clever, invisible and subtle -any fool can see MS's plan with gamepass and the XboxSAD .. I really don't think they get it yet.

I've said it before, my old shtick, but selling xbox to a giant media company (rip 21st C. Fox) would be the best thing for the xbox brand.
 
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ethomaz

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Yeah as in and whats the point youre trying to make with the post i quoted?

How have you come to the ludicrous conclusion that RDR2 was held back by the X1? Ill wait for your evidence.

"Cool example now Imagine RDR2 not being held by Xbox One "

You mean the PC version thats even more visually impressive than the console counter parts?
A port made months after original lol yeap....

All multolatform games (not ports) are held by the minor denominator... that is already definite since the start of the design of the game.

A new gen is released to increase that minor denominator but seems like it won’t be the case this gen... MS choose to be held by Xbox One.

3rd-party devs we don’t know yet but I expect after the first year they focus only on next-gen.

The only ones not entering in that “game” is PS5 exclusive that will take advantage only from PS5.
 
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Bogroll

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You could say the same thing, Ps5 holding back XSX if the Lockhart comes in with around 7Tf and comes the same Cpu as XSX and so on and so forth.
 
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peter42O

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I used to believe the same thing but after months of research and without even realizing it, just common sense tells me that the Series S will NOT be an issue in holding games back for Series X. Here's why -

1. PC gaming. If two people buy the same game and one of them is running the game on medium settings, it's not going to prevent or hold back the other person who's running the game on ultra settings. Based on the settings the person is using is what determines what does and does not get pulled off the files from the disc/download and sent to the display.

2. Xbox One X/Xbox One S/Xbox One. Xbox One X is by far the best console overall in regards to giving you best resolution, frame rates, HDR, etc. If the Xbox One S/Xbox One were holding Xbox One X back, we wouldn't be getting the superior version of every game on Xbox One X.

3. PlayStation 4 Pro/PlayStation 4 Slim/PlayStation 4. Same as above. The PlayStation 4 Pro is by far the best PlayStation 4 console and has not been held back by the two weaker inferior models.

Overall, the next gen consoles will be running the same x86 architecture and every game is always developed on high end power PC's and then scaled down and optimized accordingly to each respective console. Being held back simply isn't going to happen.

Also, the Xbox Series S will easily be better overall than Xbox One X. You'll lose resolution but gain everything pretty much everything else. If anyone is going to spend $300 now on Xbox One X for example, you're better off waiting seven more months.

For games such as REmake3, Xbox One X is NOW the better overall version of the game and only reason why it wasn't at launch is simple - because the developer M-Two did NOT properly optimize the game for the hardware. For next generation, it won't be the hardware on either side that holds anything back - it will be the developers who are not fully optimizing their games correctly and accordingly followed by the publishers if they don't give the developers the time, money and resources needed to accomplish giving fans of either or both consoles the best version they possibly can.
 

Trainsmove

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***HUGE DISCLAIMER***

Please read my WHOLE COMMENT BEFORE MAKING ANY INCONCLUSIVE OR ANY DRIVE-BY COMMENT AND PLEASE GUYS, STOP ACTING TOXIC!

Now that we all got that out of the way, I just watched Rand Al Thor 19's video he uploaded some hours ago and he (as well as Jez Corden, Brad Sams) knows all about the Xbox Lockhart or what will be called as Xbox Series S and supposedly it will be announced in May 2020, so it will be soon and we will hear about this cheaper console.

I feel that this console will dampen down or hamper some of the things that some developers might want to do (I'M TALKING ABOUT THE MORE AMBITIOUS GAMES), I'm sorry, but lower clocked CPU and "way lower RAM amount" (As Jason Schreier said) and way lower GPU power will hamper some of the developers' visions, now we've heard that developers DO NOT want the Xbox Lockhart because it will dumb down some of their visions and this is what Jason Schreier told two times already.

I do not think that "just lower the resolution and it will work" will work or scale linearly, what if a game is designed to run at 1800p or 1620p on Xbox Series X, what will the Series S run at? 720p? 560p???

What about Ray Tracing? etc etc.....

Just the fact that some developers will have to keep it in their minds will make some sacrifices to games, maybe there'll be games that are targeting lower resolutions than 4K on XSX, they'll lower the graphics of the base game itself, not the resolution, because they'll have to target the console, that's what I'm afraid of.

That is why I am not on the Lockhart train and I hope it dies.

This is Rand's video about it by the way:
What are your guys' opinions? Discuss below! 😀

Forgot to add @Bo_Hazem I wanna see your opinions, man!
Every game ever made is at it's basic parts is a sliding scale. Just like a PC is. Lower the Particle effects gain CPU or in the case of GPU Generated particles. Lower the speed of the AI gain CPU. And so on and so on. With the new XSS lower to 1080p and your good.
 

GymWolf

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we are gonna see if this is true with next halo.

if the game is builded around sex we all expect a big jump in basically everything, from physics to destruction to number of npc on screen to scale of the battles etc., with old gen console version being literally half the game it is on pc\sex.

if this doesn't happen and halo infinite is just an ultra eye-candy version of old halos, you know who the culprit is.
 
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wolffy71

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So what were saying is devs will code to the lowest denominator and basically everyone is getting the switch version of every game on every system. got it but yeah, no.
 
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FeldMonster

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If XSX is 1620p, PS5 will be 1440p.

Sorry, I just go by PC benchmarks and comparisons and this is the differences between, I know it’s disappointed to see that this is the difference between them because Microsoft have been touting”power power power” and all that but on the end, it’s really negligible.
U really need to get better at math . If xsx runs native 1620p, ps5 will be native 1440p

I just did some math (out of curiosity).
My assumptions are 10.28 TF for PS5, 12.155 TF for XBSX (correct me if those are wrong).

I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that TF = Pixel quantity generation capability, i.e. 15.4 percent fewer TF equals 15.4 percent fewer pixels, all other things being equal.

1620p for XSX would be 1324p for PS5.
So developers would likely either push to 1440p but with fewer effects (or lower framerate), OR drop to 1080p and keep some headroom, though dynamic options are likely as well.

Others:
1080p --> 993p
1800p --> 1490p
2160p (4K) --> 1655p
 

Bumblebeetuna

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I don’t think just a resolution downgrade would be fine, I think if the Lockhart managed to sell way above Xbox Series X, I think this is where we will see problems come up as developers will just focus on that HW running good rather than targeting the most powerful console Xbox has, this will definitely lower back or hold back some games, especially the ambitious ones, the XSX will just be your typical brute force machine which is garbage if you ask me.

What? So devs will be making PS5 titles and high end PC titles and instead of taking advantage of XSX, they’ll water their Xbox versions down because of Lockhart? That doesn’t make any sense. They can just port over the PS5 version and make it better. And then scale down for Lockhart, just as devs have been doing for decades with games.
 

Agnostic2020

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I just did some math (out of curiosity).
My assumptions are 10.28 TF for PS5, 12.155 TF for XBSX (correct me if those are wrong).

I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that TF = Pixel quantity generation capability, i.e. 15.4 percent fewer TF equals 15.4 percent fewer pixels, all other things being equal.

1620p for XSX would be 1324p for PS5.
So developers would likely either push to 1440p but with fewer effects (or lower framerate), OR drop to 1080p and keep some headroom, though dynamic options are likely as well.

Others:
1080p --> 993p
1800p --> 1490p
2160p (4K) --> 1655p
Oh ok sorry for saying that instead of explaining . U need to look at total number of pixels



For example :
1080p is 1920x1080=2,073,600 pixels
1440p is 2560x1440=3,686,400 pixels
2,073,600/3,686,400=0.56

rig 1 with a gpu (keeping cpu and memory and storage same between rig 1 and 2 ) power 56% weaker than rig 2 will out put 1080p vs 1440p of the stronger rig.

In case of xsx lets say if xsx outputs 1440p then ps5 outputs around 1380p (83% of the 1440p pixels which is 83% of 3,686,400 pixels )
 
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A port made months after original lol yeap....

All multolatform games (not ports) are held by the minor denominator... that is already definite since the start of the design of the game.

A new gen is released to increase that minor denominator but seems like it won’t be the case this gen... MS choose to be held by Xbox One.

3rd-party devs we don’t know yet but I expect after the first year they focus only on next-gen.

The only ones not entering in that “game” is PS5 exclusive that will take advantage only from PS5.

yeah, you can adjust gfx sliders, that doesn't mean x1 wasn't boatanchor for actual game design, scope of world, and complexity of game logic.


Im still waiting for you to back this up with an article that rockstar was held back.
 
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LordOfChaos

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If the CPU and SSD are the same, I don't think it's a big deal.

GPU scaling is the easy part. What the SeX could run at 4K, maybe the SeS runs just above 1080p with upscaling, play with filtering quality, etc. The CPU is what will allow new levels of similation next gen, every next gen console having a fast SSD is what will enable games to be built around taking advantage of them for once. GPU compute would be a question but largely these effects are scalable (particle physics, etc).
 

BeardGawd

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I find it hilarious that on the one hand you have some fans stating the SSD is the biggest game changer from current gen and that the benefits of CPU, GPU and RAM are minuscule in comparison. But when faced with Lockhart (which is rumored to have an SSD) continue to spread FUD because of CPU, GPU and RAM.
 
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LED Guy?

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What? So devs will be making PS5 titles and high end PC titles and instead of taking advantage of XSX, they’ll water their Xbox versions down because of Lockhart? That doesn’t make any sense. They can just port over the PS5 version and make it better. And then scale down for Lockhart, just as devs have been doing for decades with games.
No it is not like that, I'm saying the Lockhart will be the lowest common denominator and it will be where developers will focus on, I hope it dies, because it will hamper some games.
 
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LED Guy?

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I just did some math (out of curiosity).
My assumptions are 10.28 TF for PS5, 12.155 TF for XBSX (correct me if those are wrong).

I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that TF = Pixel quantity generation capability, i.e. 15.4 percent fewer TF equals 15.4 percent fewer pixels, all other things being equal.

1620p for XSX would be 1324p for PS5.
So developers would likely either push to 1440p but with fewer effects (or lower framerate), OR drop to 1080p and keep some headroom, though dynamic options are likely as well.

Others:
1080p --> 993p
1800p --> 1490p
2160p (4K) --> 1655p
No it doesn't work like that. 🤣🤣🤣
 

Lethal01

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If you must worry your precious little heart, worry more about the countless millions PS4 and Xbox ones out there. These 7 year old machines are much more likely to stifle new game development than this non-confirmed machine ever could.

They will at the beginning but they will be less supported later in the generation.
Lockheart would need to be supported for the entire lifecycle
 

Gargus

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I think Lockhart is just a potential contingency plan incase ps5 destroys them again or ps5 ends up being a good chunk of change less than the flagship Xbox. They can try and recover by dropping a much cheaper priced system.

But really I don't care. I won't buy another Xbox unless they have several years of consistent great games. All my other xboxs collect dust because they have few good games and now most of them I can just play on my PC.
 
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Gravemind

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As mentioned above as long as the CPU and SSD speeds are the same, I dont think lockhart will hold back the Series X at all.
 

LED Guy?

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Holy fuck.

Yet another 'mock concern' thread by a renowned Sony fanboy, attempting to discuss stuff already discussed in countless other threads, and with a cheeky 'no driveby/toxic comments' specification (because OP knows exactly what nest he's trying to shake).

IMO, this kind of thread is toxic by itself.

If you must worry your precious little heart, worry more about the countless millions PS4 and Xbox ones out there. These 7 year old machines are much more likely to stifle new game development than this non-confirmed machine ever could.
How is it toxic when I and many others are concerned about this prospect?

Here you are insulting me and trying to say that it will be toxic when in reality, YOU are the one who’s being toxic right now, this is very weird. I don’t know where to start with some of you weird fanboys.
 
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makaveli60

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Its real and its going to be priced super attractive.

That said I don't feel the S will hold back games near as much as current base hardware.
Of course it won't as much, since it will have the same base architecture but it will still hold them back. What I hope is that it will come much later and maybe then for Lockhart developers will cut back on games that were developed for XSX and PS5 instead of having Lockhart as the base machine and then upscaling for XSX and PS5. Kinda like how Switch is handled.
 
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Bryank75

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What a disaster..... the whole purpose of a new generation is to not have to think about old or less powerful hardware and focus on making a game that was previously not possible in some capacity.

That's why PlayStations strategy is better, it gets everyone in on the same floor and the devs making exclusives don't have to water down their ideas.... much more room for their imagination to go wild. As they've expressed numerous times about PS5.....

So, why would you pay for an extra flop and a half to play games that are outdated but look a tiny bit sharper???

Better spend that money on something that actually allows gameplay and design innovation. Leave Xbox in the past.
 
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What a disaster..... the whole purpose of a new generation is to not have to think about old or less powerful hardware and focus on making a game that was previously not possible in some capacity.

That's why PlayStations strategy is better, it gets everyone in on the same floor and the devs making exclusives don't have to water down their ideas.... much more room for their imagination to go wild. As they've expressed numerous times about PS5.....

So, why would you pay for an extra flop and a half to play games that are outdated but look a tiny bit sharper???

Better spend that money on something that actually allows gameplay and design innovation. Leave Xbox in the past.
That's funny.

In 2013, it was all about TF, GDDR5 ram and 1080p vs 900p.

And leading up to March 18, 2020, it was all about which next gen system had more TF as both systems were pegged at about 12 TF each with PS5 squeaking out a win from most insiders. As a bonus, PS1-PS3 BC was in the mix.

But some reason the second a certain stage show started on March 18, 2020 at 12:00 pm noon, suddenly all that changed and SSD and audio are now the most important things in gaming for the past month. And now nobody seems to care the PS1-PS3 BC is not happening.
 
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martino

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we are gonna see if this is true with next halo.

if the game is builded around sex we all expect a big jump in basically everything, from physics to destruction to number of npc on screen to scale of the battles etc., with old gen console version being literally half the game it is on pc\sex.

if this doesn't happen and halo infinite is just an ultra eye-candy version of old halos, you know who the culprit is.
Won't happen imo
 

Bryank75

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That's funny.

In 2013, it was all about TF, GDDR5 ram and 1080p vs 900p.

And leading up to March 18, 2020, it was all about which next gen system had more TF as both systems were pegged at about 12 TF each with PS5 squeaking out a win from most insiders. As a bonus, PS1-PS3 BC was in the mix.

But some reason the second a certain stage show started on March 18, 2020 at 12:00 pm noon, suddenly all that changed and SSD and audio are now the most important things in gaming for the past month. And now nobody seems to care the PS1-PS3 BC is not happening.
I don't think that is a fair representation and I'll point out why....

I think Xbox had the better launch games in general but Xbox marketing made it all about TV and wanted to target a bigger audience than us silly gamers.... cause our audience wasn't important or big enough for them.

In November 2017 the One X was revealed and didn't change a damn thing... because (although 2014 was ok) in 2015 the big games started dropping on PlayStation and still have not stopped....
We are gaming and enjoying the games while.... well I have no idea what you'd be doing on Xbox TBH.

BC... I frankly have too much stuff to play as it is, there's no reason to look at PS1, 2 or 3 games.

PS games already look phenomenal, I honestly don't know how they do it and the SSD will just let me enjoy the games more of my free time.

I genuinely hope MS deliver some great games for you guys because the hatred Xbox fans seem to have for us is crazy.... I'm in a PlayStation group on Facebook and they came in posting FF7 spoilers and it's my first playthrough of the game. It only builds animosity between us all..... and none of this is aimed to piss you off, it's all just based on my perspective as a biased PS fan...
 

DrAspirino

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I feel that this console will dampen down or hamper some of the things that some developers might want to do (I'M TALKING ABOUT THE MORE AMBITIOUS GAMES), I'm sorry, but lower clocked CPU and "way lower RAM amount" (As Jason Schreier said) and way lower GPU power will hamper some of the developers' visions, now we've heard that developers DO NOT want the Xbox Lockhart because it will dumb down some of their visions and this is what Jason Schreier told two times already.
Ehhmm... no, it won't. Different resolutions require different textures, different ammounts of VRAM and different GPU/CPU capabilites. 4K is literally 4x 1080p, so there's literally 4x less power you need to move the same graphics at 1080p (if not less).

Heck, I can run Destiny 2 at 50-ish FPS @ low settings, 720p (with internal resolution half of that) on an Intel 530 IGPU, ffs!!! Sure, it won't be optimal (not even near), but that same game can run at 4K with everything on ultra in higher end PCs.

I do not think that "just lower the resolution and it will work" will work or scale linearly, what if a game is designed to run at 1800p or 1620p on Xbox Series X, what will the Series S run at? 720p? 560p???

What about Ray Tracing? etc etc.....
It does work (hence, the example above). It can literally run at half (or even a quarter) of that and no one with a 1080p TV (or even 720p) TV will notice.

Ray-tracing you ask? Same thing: if user don't push it above 1080p, it can run decently on a mid-tier RDNA2 GPU.

What I'm trying to say is that your question has been answered looooong ago within the PC realm (and believe me when I tell you I've seen run Mass Effect on a celeron with IGPU and enough ram. A f*cking celeron!).