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[M1chl]

I mean isn't it kind of dangerous to presume, that those chip last that long and when shit hit the fan, you are going to have basically throw out the whole console? I am typing from MacBook Pro 2019, so I probably should have kept silent, however at least in my house hold consoles eat up most of my internet traffic, thus they write a lot of data on their storage solution and I am kind of nervous about it. I never had any HDD failed on me, however I have few pretty high profile brand SSD failed on me in the past. So does the longetivity of those chips got way better or it is just a cost effective solution how to do this?

 

[ManaByte]

I mean isn't it kind of dangerous to presume, that those chip last that long and when shit hit the fan, you are going to have basically throw out the whole console?

By the time the SSD fails they'll have a slim revision or some reason for you to upgrade from the launch model.

Modern SSDs are much more reliable than the old ones.

 

[CS Lurker]

It's cheaper. And you'll always have the expansion option.

 

[tillbot8]

Cheaper I'd say, all one form factor!

Edit: CS Lurker got there before me

 

[onQ123]

Both have SSDs that can be added so you can just use the secondary SSD if the onboard SSD fail , PS3 super slim also had a small 12GB onboard flash memory I don't remember anyone having a problem with it no longer working.

 

[M1chl]

It's cheaper. And you'll always have the expansion option.

This does not means that when the internal SSD shit the bed, you are going to be able to run stuff off the external, specially the Sony sollution with many channels, is not something NVMe SSDs are doing. Will see.

Both have SSDs that can be added so you can just use the secondary SSD if the onboard SSD fail , PS3 super slim also had a small 12GB onboard flash memory I don't remember anyone having a problem with it no longer working.

Well Sony SSD seems to be quite different in comparison to normal NVMes, I thing you will still run through the onBoard SSD, because you probably have to utilize the onboard controller, I think. Not sure about Xbox. I was not exactly intrigued with all the SSD talk, but now I am.

 

[Maybe It's Medicine?]

Are you asking if it's going to fail eventually, cause yes it will and no, they don't want you to fix it. Consoles be like that though.

 

[SaturnSaturn]

I echo your concerns, i also had two ssds die on me in the last few years, while my mechinacal drives still work after 10-15 years

 

[ManaByte]

This does not means that when the internal SSD shit the bed, you are going to be able to run stuff off the external, specially the Sony sollution with many channels, is not something NVMe SSDs are doing. Will see.

You can install any PCI 4.0 NMVe into the system. Sony didn't make a magical SSD that doesn't exist. They just put the top of the line spec on the board.

 

[diffusionx]

It’s a good point but the entire industry is moving towards soldering everything to the mobo. Thanks Apple. My guess it is also a security measure as well.

I have never had a SSD fail on me but that’s just me. I use a 2014 MBP every day and it still works great. The poor SSD in that has gone through the ringer far more than the new consoles will.

You can install any PCI 4.0 NMVe into the system. Sony didn't make a magical SSD that doesn't exist. They just put the top of the line spec on the board.

His point is more that it is unlikely you’ll be able to boot and run the OS off an installed drive. If the internal drive fails the system is cooked.

 

[M1chl]

You can install any PCI 4.0 NMVe into the system. Sony didn't make a magical SSD that doesn't exist. They just put the top of the line spec on the board.

It's still different, at this point, by having a lot of channels, which I am not sure if it's going to be "fixed" on the same NVMe PCIe connector, because you have still finite number of pins/pads. If I am not mistaken, Sony went with more channels rather than higher clocks, because that way you get less heat and also less latency.

And also system is probably going to be still on the internal one, because of security concerns.

 

[ManaByte]

His point is more that it is unlikely you’ll be able to boot and run the OS off an installed drive. If the internal drive fails it’s cooked.

You probably could. Sony would just need to allow it in the firmware and allow you to update the firmware via USB like they did on both the PS3 and PS4.

 

[stevenapex]

I don't think the XSX SSD is soldered to the board. I think it's just a standard SSD that they use for Surface behind a piece of shielding.

Images for reference.

 

[diffusionx]

You probably could. Sony would just need to allow it in the firmware and allow you to update the firmware via USB like they did on both the PS3 and PS4.

I really doubt Sony will allow it in the firmware. Like I said I think this is for security as well. Of course we will see.

 

[kikonawa]

I mean isn't it kind of dangerous to presume, that those chip last that long and when shit hit the fan, you are going to have basically throw out the whole console? I am typing from MacBook Pro 2019, so I probably should have kept silent, however at least in my house hold consoles eat up most of my internet traffic, thus they write a lot of data on their storage solution and I am kind of nervous about it. I never had any HDD failed on me, however I have few pretty high profile brand SSD failed on me in the past. So does the longetivity of those chips got way better or it is just a cost effective solution how to do this?

easyer. Thinner. Cheaper
Like you say even apple solderes ssds onboard for all models with touchbar

 

[M1chl]

I don't think the XSX SSD is soldered to the board. I think it's just a standard SSD that they use for Surface behind a piece of shielding.

Images for reference.

Hmm interesting, however the situation is not going to be much different if those drives are not going to be buy-able and easily replacable.

easyer. Thinner. Cheaper
Like you say even apple solderes ssds onboard for all models with touchbar

I know however, it's shit nonethless.

 

[stevenapex]

Hmm interesting, however the situation is not going to be much different if those drives are not going to be buy-able and easily replacable.

No, but at least this allows the option.

 

[ManaByte]

I don't think the XSX SSD is soldered to the board. I think it's just a standard SSD that they use for Surface behind a piece of shielding.

Images for reference.

Surface doesn't use a NMVe SSD.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Cheaper, and probably more reliable, as you don't have to worry about oxidization, or the card ever coming loose if the device gets banged around. I think warranty claims might just swap out the board altogether, and then they can refurb by removing the bad chip, and soldering a new one in place.

 

[CyRuZ]

Lol at the people who say you can still use an own ssd if the internal breaks. Righttttt, and you most definitely can also install the system software on it. Right.

 

[M1chl]

No, but at least this allows the option.

Possibly, but MS did not specified how it looks inside, if it's some...well now I know how to say it, especially old tech used that, that pcb was submerged in solid compound...then you can repair fuck all. Because you know, there is still a huge security concern. As far as I know Xbox One still uses on-board flash memory for critical parts of OS.

 

[stevenapex]

Surface doesn't use a NMVe SSD.

What?

Taken from an article on Surface. "Another point to note here is that the Surface Laptop 3 and Surface Pro X are not equipped with a typical SSD. While the SSDs in these devices are indeed in the smaller M.2 style found in most modern laptops, they’re both using the newer M.2 2230 standard."

It does make me wonder if they aren't using Gen4 though, as most replacements are Gen3.

 

[CS Lurker]

I really don't think sony and MS are going to deny installing the OS on the external SSD. Makes no sense.

 

[jigglet]

You probably could. Sony would just need to allow it in the firmware and allow you to update the firmware via USB like they did on both the PS3 and PS4.

You seriously think they'll let users set the boot drive to one that is designed to - and encouraged - to be removed? I don't see it. It's a console, they want to keep it and any accompanying tech support as simple as they can.

 

[martino]

aren't uids involved between different part of the system since 360/ps3 era ?
i don't think allowing a drive is as easy as some people think.

 

[M1chl]

I really don't think sony and MS are going to deny installing the OS on the external SSD. Makes no sense.

I think they do tho, both PS4 and Xbox One had flash memory chips, with at least critical parts of the OS, if that chip shit the bed, you then get non working system. However the flash memory only gets written on, when you update OS, not all the time like with SSD. And since you already have storage soldered onto motherboard, I don't think they are going to use discrete flash memory for OS.

 

[stevenapex]

I think they do tho, both PS4 and Xbox One had flash memory chips, with at least critical parts of the OS, if that chip shit the bed, you then get non working system. However the flash memory only gets written on, when you update OS, not all the time like with SSD. And since you already have storage soldered onto motherboard, I don't think they are going to use discrete flash memory for OS.

They will probably use it for critical things such as formatting a drive and connecting to the internet to recover the OS from there more than likely. Macs and their recovery system works the same way.

 

[Kumomeme]

less overhead perhaps?

 

[M1chl]

They will probably use it for critical things such as formatting a drive and connecting to the internet to recover the OS from there more than likely. Macs and their recovery system works the same way.

Yeah well, but Mac recovery is just a tool which sits in UEFI bios, it does not help with anything, if you have faulty chips. Technically you can install system on external drive tho.

less overhead perhaps?

Pardon my lack of English prowess, however I don't know what you mean by "overhead" in this situation.

 

[Warnen]

You mean the ssd might fail out of warranty, the shame. Guess you will have to buy another console....

 

[CS Lurker]

And since you already have storage soldered onto motherboard, I don't think they are going to use discrete flash memory for OS.

I think they will. But only time will tell.

 

[M1chl]

You mean the ssd might fail out of warranty, the shame. Guess you will have to buy another console....

Well I guess that's why it's called "consumer electronics".

 

[onQ123]

This does not means that when the internal SSD shit the bed, you are going to be able to run stuff off the external, specially the Sony sollution with many channels, is not something NVMe SSDs are doing. Will see.


Well Sony SSD seems to be quite different in comparison to normal NVMes, I thing you will still run through the onBoard SSD, because you probably have to utilize the onboard controller, I think. Not sure about Xbox. I was not exactly intrigued with all the SSD talk, but now I am.

What make you think that the M2 SSD can't be used in place of the onboard SSD? the M2 SSD will just need to have extra bandwidth to make up for the extra lanes that the onboard chips have.

trying to replace the onboard 5.5GB/s SSD with a M2 5.5GB/s SSD would be a problem but replacing it with a 7GB/s M2 drive should be ok.

 

[kuncol02]

I mean isn't it kind of dangerous to presume, that those chip last that long and when shit hit the fan, you are going to have basically throw out the whole console? I am typing from MacBook Pro 2019, so I probably should have kept silent, however at least in my house hold consoles eat up most of my internet traffic, thus they write a lot of data on their storage solution and I am kind of nervous about it. I never had any HDD failed on me, however I have few pretty high profile brand SSD failed on me in the past. So does the longetivity of those chips got way better or it is just a cost effective solution how to do this?

But XBOx SSD is not soldered, or at least that's not how it looks on video.


PS. I'm pretty sure we had thread like that already because youtube opened video in exact moment I wanted.

 

[kikonawa]

Hmm interesting, however the situation is not going to be much different if those drives are not going to be buy-able and easily replacable.


I know however, it's shit nonethless.

Thats another topic. Yes its shit

 

[M1chl]

You mean the ssd might fail out of warranty, the shame. Guess you will have to buy another console....

Well I guess that's why it's called "consumer electronics".

I think they will. But only time will tell.

Will see, however with people bitching about slow booth and shit, I don't see much of a reason for it. People probably not thinking in terms of reliability, they just care how fast it is.

What make you think that the M2 SSD can't be used in place of the onboard SSD? the M2 SSD will just need to have extra bandwidth to make up for the extra lanes that the onboard chips have.

trying to replace the onboard 5.5GB/s SSD with a M2 5.5GB/s SSD would be a problem but replacing it with a 7GB/s M2 drive should be ok.

Because I think that you cannot use the console without functioning internal SSD, because that's where the OS going to be. I would be gladly proved wrong, however I cannot see it.

 

[LarknThe4th]

One thing I'm wondering about, let's say the internal drive kicks the bucket, will the machine still function if you simply insert a new drive in the machines, or is there some bespoke information that only the internal drives have access too that the console needs to run?

 

[M1chl]

But XBOx SSD is not soldered, or at least that's not how it looks on video.


PS. I'm pretty sure we had thread like that already because youtube opened video in exact moment I wanted.

Well how about Series S then? Seems like different deal. Obviously it could be something different, but unless someone proves that it can be replaced, I would count on the worse situation, that it cannot be. I would like to be proven from.

One thing I'm wondering about, let's say the internal drive kicks the bucket, will the machine still function if you simply insert a new drive in the machines, or is there some bespoke information that only the internal drives have access too that the console needs to run?

I don't think so and this was my whole premise of this thread. Maybe I should have stated it more accurately.

 

[onQ123]

Well I guess that's why it's called "consumer electronics".


Will see, however with people bitching about slow booth and shit, I don't see much of a reason for it. People probably not thinking in terms of reliability, they just care how fast it is.


Because I think that you cannot use the console without functioning internal SSD, because that's where the OS going to be. I would be gladly proved wrong, however I cannot see it.

I have replaced dead harddrives in a few PS4's (not my own but other people's PS4's) you would just download the FW onto a USB flash drive & install it onto the new HDD & I'm pretty sure you would be able to do the same with a SSD.

 

[kuncol02]

Well how about Series S then? Seems like different deal. Obviously it could be something different, but unless someone proves that it can be replaced, I would count on the worse situation, that it cannot be. I would like to be proven from.

I don't think so and this was my whole premise of this thread. Maybe I should have stated it more accurately.

It's on other side, you can see place for it on bottom of back shield. We can safely assume that it's not soldered. If it's replaceable is still unknown. Maybe you can disassembly extension card and use it inside?

 

[M1chl]

I have replaced dead harddrives in a few PS4's (not my own but other people's PS4's) you would just download the FW onto a USB flash drive & install it onto the new HDD & I'm pretty sure you would be able to do the same with a SSD.

Sure however (at least) kernel still resides on the flash memory chip. That's why you were able to recover the working system.

PS4 Flash memory dumped by developer Criscros - Wololo.net

If the PS4 follows the path of the PS3 and the Vita, we shouldn’t be expecting a “true” hack for it anytime soon. Nevertheless, this doesn’t prevent hackers, tinkerers, and hobbyists from digging into...

wololo.net

 

[zombrex]

First I heard of this. Ridiculous decision that benefits them but not consumers.
If your PS3 or PS4 HDD kicks the bucket you can put a new HDD in and have up and running again in under 20 mins. Now if it dies your console is dead forever unless you pay a no doubt exorbitantly high repair fee and wait weeks for a fix. These SSD's very much have a finite life that can be used up quickly if you download and replace the data frequently.

 

[M1chl]

First I heard of this. Ridiculous decision that benefits them but not consumers.
If your PS3 or PS4 kicks the bucket you can put a new HDD in and have up and running again in under 20 mins. Now if it dies your console is dead forever unless you pay a no doubt exorbitantly high repair fee and wait weeks for a fix. These SSD's very much have a finite life that can be used up quickly if you download and replace the data frequently.

Yeah that's why I create thered about that, we did not know that this is the case, until Sony published the teardown, which is few minutes ago. Technically you still have the Flash chip on PS4, Xbox...however you write there only when system update is concerned.

 

[onQ123]

Sure however (at least) kernel still resides on the flash memory chip. That's why you were able to recover the working system.

PS4 Flash memory dumped by developer Criscros - Wololo.net

If the PS4 follows the path of the PS3 and the Vita, we shouldn’t be expecting a “true” hack for it anytime soon. Nevertheless, this doesn’t prevent hackers, tinkerers, and hobbyists from digging into...

wololo.net

PS5 will still have ROM what make you think they will just jump out the window with all the eggs in the SSD basket?

 

[M1chl]

PS5 will still have ROM what make you think they will just jump out the window with all the eggs in the SSD basket?

But it's not ROM, it's flash memory, which gets update whenever OS get's updated. I suspect when you have already some persistent storage on board, why use old and slow flash memory for OS?

 

[EverydayBeast]

I like the SSD decision really they’re going to break? Big bad OP!

 

[onQ123]

But it's not ROM, it's flash memory, which gets update whenever OS get's updated. I suspect when you have already some persistent storage on board, why use old and slow flash memory for OS?

I'm pretty sure they will have ROM

 

[Hendrick's]

It's called planned obsolescence.

 

[M1chl]

I'm pretty sure they will have ROM

Well that would be unwise, because if some exploit happened, there would be no way of fixing the issue. Take into consideration that not even PC bioses or CPU microcode is ROM these days.

 

[ZywyPL]

It's cheaper to produce + gives control that consumers won't be able to throw just any (read: cheap and underperforming) drive into them.