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[IISANDERII]

The problem with prosecuting them is that proving actual malfeasance in a case like this is really, really hard. Ultimately, financial regulations aren't really equipped to handle the equivalent of wilful endangerment and/or negligent homicide, so demonstrating their incompetence and general uncaring attitudes on a personal level doesn't do a lot of good.

Also, let's tone down the calls for people's actual heads, yeah? That tends to end poorly.

I don't follow what you mean. You're saying people were better off living under the rule of monarchies and theocracies?

 

[King Tubby]

 

[leakey]

 

[FreezeSSC]

This article is the biggest crock of shit and does a horrible job of telling people what really happened. At least as the fanne and Freddie debacle goes you people don't understand there is literally a plot to remove the gse's and give all mortgage finance to the banking industry, not just any banking Industry but the tbtf banks that caused this whole mess to begin with, small lenders and community banks wont have the capital required to be able to compete. If right wing politicians have there way the entire bottoms 20% of people won't be able to get mortgages anymore, the interest rates while probably jump 10 points and home prices will crash. Also so long 30 year mortgage and hello to variable Apr mortgages. Fannie and Freddie were created during the new deal a relic of FDR and has been used to help minorities achieve the state of home ownership, Fannie Mae did not start or populize the big steaming pile of crap that was the sub prime loan crisis that was all the tbtf banks, you know the ones we want to give the keys to the mortgage market to, sub prime by definition is a loan that doesn't meet Fannie maes underwriting standard.

 

[Akuun]

Pretty sure these guys have absolutely no sense of shame at this point. They don't care what it looks like anyone as long as it gets them money.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

So no one can clarify yet what "wall street" means yet?

Pretty sure these guys have absolutely no sense of shame at this point. They don't care what it looks like anyone as long as it gets them money.

Who is they?

 

[sharbhund]

Would anyone be surprised to learn that both judges are GWB appointees?

 

[HammerOfThor]

I can't even.

 

[DoktorEvil]

So no one can clarify yet what "wall street" means yet?

It's a catch-all for people who work in the area I guess. I can tell some of these people are angry and have no fucking clue why.

 

[water_wendi]

So no one can clarify yet what "wall street" means yet?

Who is they?

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wallstreet.asp
The collective name for the financial and investment community, which includes stock exchanges and large banks, brokerages, securities and underwriting firms, and big businesses. Some people believe that the interests of these big firms contrast those of smaller businesses, or "Main Street."

 

[FreezeSSC]

Would anyone be surprised to learn that both judges are GWB appointees?

If the Fannie Mae lawsuit wins then it'd be a huge loss to right wing politics.

 

[onadesertedisland]

With everyone's retirement plan tied to this crap, nothing will change.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wallstreet.asp
The collective name for the financial and investment community, which includes stock exchanges and large banks, brokerages, securities and underwriting firms, and big businesses. Some people believe that the interests of these big firms contrast those of smaller businesses, or "Main Street."

So anyone in finance? Using that huge of a blanket name is moronic. You keep tagging " they" with everything even though they're wildly different and with different motives. You're essentially just fighting a boogyman at that point.

 

[Lonely1]

 

[Ponn]

Pretty sure these guys have absolutely no sense of shame at this point. They don't care what it looks like anyone as long as it gets them money.

Why should they care. Who do they have to fear at this point. There was a group trying to protest them that got horribly mocked and ridiculed by the average people the scumbags take advantage of day in and day out. People are more worried about Kim K's baby name.

 

[FreezeSSC]

You guys really should read up more on these cases before commenting, before you all go thinking that this is just wall street trying to make money off the tax payer read up on the financial crisis. Hank Paulson former CEO of Goldman Sachs and secretary treasurer essentially used AIG and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to give a back door bailout to his cronies. Everyone involved in these suits are dirty not just wall street.

Why Hank Greenberg Should Absolutely Win (Or the Astonishingly Duplicitous Behavior of the Treasury and Fed)
The Treasury and Fed charged the TBTF banks a 2.5% interest rate and AIG a 14% interest rate…or about 5X higher.

2. In its 74 year history, no 13(3) borrower had ever been forced to hand over equity or voting control


3. Between September 16th and 21st, the government switched term sheets on AIG and somehow “couldn’t find” the original one for trial. Guess what…1st term sheet never mentioned preferred equity. The 2nd term sheet was “materially worse.”





4. Geithner then told AIG that if they didn’t accept the new term sheet, he was going to immediately call due $37B in short-term demand notes.




5. As a result, AIG’s Board had no choice but to accept the deal. This is called a Hobson’s choice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson's_choice


6. Fed and Treasury knew they couldn’t legally hold the equity, so they had their teams of lawyers doing backflips trying to figure out an end-around. Outside counsel joked about how “creative” they were going to have to get.


7. So they created a trust “without precedent” and then picked the trustees for their — guess what — close ties to the Fed.


8. Oh, and then they decided that the trustees should NOT CARE ABOUT THE MINORITY SHAREHOLDERS…and then lied about it at trial.


9. Fed/Treas then engineered a 20 to 1 reverse stock split that applied ONLY to issued, but not authorized shares, to avoid a shareholder vote. That way, the common shareholders wouldn’t have a say.



10. Fed/Treas also gave tens of billions in a backdoor bailout to the TBTF banks who were AIG counterparties. The TBTF banks GOT PAID AT PAR from AIG…which is absolutely ludicrous under the circumstances (and AIG had no say).



11. The Fed/Treas also insisted that they didn’t control AIG, but…


12. Finally, the entire time, before any equity was even considered, Fed/Treas knew that the loan was FULLY SECURED, even with a 25% haircut applied to AIG’s collateral. The equity, folks, was punitive.


AIG and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were selectively punished by the Fed/Treas for political reasons, not because of the fundamentals of the companies. One may not like Hank Greenberg or the GSEs…but this is America man and the rule of law should trump dislike for plaintiffs. That’s what makes our capitalist society work. I mean, no offense to Venezuela or Russia where the rights of shareholders can be trampled on a whim, but I like it here…where that sort of thing isn’t supposed to happen. Ever.

Oh, and a tip of the hat to David Boies, a true stone cold bad@*$. Its unfortunate, however, that it takes a cantankerous billionaire who can afford DB’s team for years and years, to bring this fed/treas behavior to light.

Up next, FNMA and FMCC…

https://medium.com/@ckc12_rb/why-ha...licitous-behavior-of-the-treasury-41fffa7693f


Here you can read how basically Paulson gave advance warning to his friends that he would be putting the gse's into conservatorship when not even a month earlier he publicly said that the gse's could weather the financial storm and didn't need to be put into conservatorship. This essentially Gave them inside info to short the stock and make an astronomical amount of money.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-funds-advance-word-of-2008-fannie-mae-rescue

 

[Drensch]

If Isis wants to kill Americans, lets cut a deal. These guys won't be missed.

 

[Enron]

I don't think a single person in this thread actually read the article in the OP.

 

[Earthstrike]

Am I misunderstanding here. It the expectation that the banks get bailed out for free? The government wasn't allowed to get something for bailing them out? And even if there were punitive measures taken, shouldn't that be what happens to institutions which jeopardize the financial stability of the entire planet?

 

[GaimeGuy]

I don't understand what they're complaining about.

So, a bunch of hedge fund investors swoop in and buy AIG stock for pennies during the financial meltdown, expecting the conservatorship to eventually end and all government involvement to cease. And they come out with billions and no government involvement in the new AIG.

But the government continues to be involved... is that what they're suing over? That they swooped in like vultures, ate the dead mother raccoon corpses, let the government nurture the young baby raccoons, and they're now mad that once the babies are grown and have some meat on their bones, the government isn't handing them over to them for dessert?

 

[Yagharek]

This is probably the one area I'm not completely opposed to the death penalty.

 

[King Tubby]

You guys really should read up more on these cases before commenting, before you all go thinking that this is just wall street trying to make money off the tax payer read up on the financial crisis. Hank Paulson former CEO of Goldman Sachs and secretary treasurer essentially used AIG and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to give a back door bailout to his cronies. Everyone involved in these suits are dirty not just wall street.

Then they should all be in prison, not just brought into court for some more equitable wealth redistribution of the nation's money among billionaire crooks.

I don't think a single person in this thread actually read the article in the OP.

Oh?

Hank Greenberg had been forced out as chairman and chief executive in 2005 after state and federal regulators uncovered that the company had been engaged in sham transactions that allowed AIG and its corporate customers to manipulate reported earnings, avoid taxes, evade regulatory requirements and hide risks and liabilities from shareholders. Ever since, Greenberg has been on a mission to restore his reputation and regain control of the company that he had ruled over with an iron hand for 37 years.

Even in exile, Greenberg remained AIG’s most important shareholder, controlling 20 percent of the company’s stock. He successfully sued some AIG executives in court and recruited away others to build his own rival insurance company. He also agreed to pay $15 million to settle civil charges brought against him by the Securities and Exchange Commission, though he refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing.

Greenberg has repeatedly claimed that if he’d still been in charge, AIG would never have gotten into the mess it did. But that is impossible to know.

What is known, however, is that when Greenberg was in charge, he ran the company “as if it were a feudal state . . . disdainful of modern concepts of internal controls and regulatory compliance,” according to one person with intimate knowledge of the company’s management. After his firing, AIG paid $1.6 billion to settle multiple counts of accounting fraud brought by the SEC.

What is also known is that the two lines of business that were the source of AIG’s major problems during the 2008 crisis were launched on his watch. He helped to create their risky business models and strategies, which were based on playing one regulator off another and engaging in complex financial arrangements between regulated subsidiaries and a largely unregulated parent company. And both business lines took root in the same clever rules-bending corporate culture that had always been Greenberg’s trademark.

“The AIG which came begging to the Fed’s doorstep was the AIG that Hank Greenberg built,” said James Millstein, the Treasury official who oversaw AIG’s restructuring. “It’s capital structure was opaque, it was heavily dependent on short-term funding, with a highly leveraged financial products subsidiary that had been organized to evade effective regulatory oversight.” Greenberg, he said, “ran the parent company like a hedge fund with a triple A rating.”

As the financial crisis unfolded, AIG’s fundamental flaws were finally exposed. On the same week Lehman Brothers collapsed, desperate executives went to the Treasury and the Federal Reserve looking for a loan. Dozens of Fed officials were dispatched to AIG headquarters on Pine Street in lower Manhattan. Within days, they were convinced that without a substantial cash infusion, AIG would be forced to file for bankruptcy, threatening the solvency of a number of big banks in Europe and the United States.

Hank Greenberg should be sleeping on the cot that was meant for Kenneth Lay, not agitating for billions of dollars from the treasury.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Will they accept bootstraps?

 

[HarryHengst]

Capitalism fucking owns. I love this and hope they succeed, because this is exactly what any nation that embraces capitalism deserves.

It is exactly how capitalism will always end up and i cannot help but laugh at people going all 'wow this is ridiculous'. No it isnt, it is what people are supposed to do under the system: get the most money for their shareholders, no matter what the cost.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Capitalism fucking owns. I love this and hope they succeed, because this is exactly what any nation that embraces capitalism deserves.

It is exactly how capitalism will always end up and i cannot help but laugh at people going all 'wow this is ridiculous'. No it isnt, it is what people are supposed to do under the system: get the most money for their shareholders, no matter what the cost.

And our tax dollars?

 

[ClosingADoor]

So people should all just keep getting fucked? Ok.


One way or another, it's coming. Just a matter of time.

Revolution and chaos is not a thing to wish for. People die, most of them innocent. If you think your scenario will just be a couple of rich bankers dying, you are very wrong. And that is why I can never support such a thing.

It is always strange to me how people sometimes wish for a revolution (or some other catastrophic event) in the delusion that things after that will suddenly turn out better. It will not.

The options are not "do nothing" and "kill them." There is a whole lot of alternatives between that.

Yes, the bankers acted disgusting and it is even worse that they get to walk free. But randomly hanging people in the street is not an option any civilized nation in this day and age should take.

It is the same idiotic thought that has people say things like "nuke ISIS" without thinking it through, while safely sitting behind a computer and thinking you won't be impacted by the outcome.

 

[King Tubby]

Capitalism fucking owns. I love this and hope they succeed, because this is exactly what any nation that embraces capitalism deserves.

It is exactly how capitalism will always end up and i cannot help but laugh at people going all 'wow this is ridiculous'. No it isnt, it is what people are supposed to do under the system: get the most money for their shareholders, no matter what the cost.

I'll take it over gulags and genocide ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[HarryHengst]

And our tax dollars?

Socialise losses, privatize profits. It owns if it works, and Wall Street is amazing at it. I guess it sucks if you are not part of the top 0,01%, but lol who the fuck cares about those people. Its not like they will go all French Revolution style executing the people who do this, and the 0,01% knows it.

I'll take it over gulags and genocide ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Because clearly that are the only two options, yes.

 

[nib95]

So anyone in finance? Using that huge of a blanket name is moronic. You keep tagging " they" with everything even though they're wildly different and with different motives. You're essentially just fighting a boogyman at that point.

It's no bogeyman, it's just a shortcut way to lumber some of the biggest financial institutions and banks under one catch all. It's additionally fitting because pretty much all of them are based in Wall Street. In other words, the latter has become the epicentre and home for many of the institutes in question, which is why the phrase has stuck.

 

[Percy]

Sounds like they could benefit a lot from a boot up the arse.

 

[elrechazado]

You guys really should read up more on these cases before commenting, before you all go thinking that this is just wall street trying to make money off the tax payer read up on the financial crisis. Hank Paulson former CEO of Goldman Sachs and secretary treasurer essentially used AIG and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to give a back door bailout to his cronies. Everyone involved in these suits are dirty not just wall street.


https://medium.com/@ckc12_rb/why-ha...licitous-behavior-of-the-treasury-41fffa7693f


Here you can read how basically Paulson gave advance warning to his friends that he would be putting the gse's into conservatorship when not even a month earlier he publicly said that the gse's could weather the financial storm and didn't need to be put into conservatorship. This essentially Gave them inside info to short the stock and make an astronomical amount of money.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-funds-advance-word-of-2008-fannie-mae-rescue

But ... Banksters!
Great post. The rule of law is not to be discarded. The government was complicit in a lot of shenanigans, and if they violated contracts or the law they should be accountable.

 

[malyce]

Revolution and chaos is not a thing to wish for. People die, most of them innocent. If you think your scenario will just be a couple of rich bankers dying, you are very wrong. And that is why I can never support such a thing.

It is always strange to me how people sometimes wish for a revolution (or some other catastrophic event) in the delusion that things after that will suddenly turn out better. It will not.

The options are not "do nothing" and "kill them." There is a whole lot of alternatives between that.

Yes, the bankers acted disgusting and it is even worse that they get to walk free. But randomly hanging people in the street is not an option any civilized nation in this day and age should take.

It is the same idiotic thought that has people say things like "nuke ISIS" without thinking it through, while safely sitting behind a computer and thinking you won't be impacted by the outcome.

People like spewing out the word "civilized" while completely ignoring history. No matter how civilized you think humans are it's not gonna change the fact that past a certain point, humans will resort to violence.

Just to be clear, I don't condone hanging anyone in the streets, and I'm not naive enough to think that it's gonna be all gravy. I fully understand the repercussions of such actions. However, past a certain point, whether it be 10/50/100 years from now, once that little glimmer of hope runs out, it could go south really fast.


I find the sitting behind a computer bit ironic. Power is slowly being taken away, but it's all good to some of you as long as you have that little bit of comfort. The world can go to complete shit, just as long as we have our internet and people don't die it's all good. smh.

 

[HarryHengst]

Revolution and chaos is not a thing to wish for. People die, most of them innocent. If you think your scenario will just be a couple of rich bankers dying, you are very wrong. And that is why I can never support such a thing.

It is always strange to me how people sometimes wish for a revolution (or some other catastrophic event) in the delusion that things after that will suddenly turn out better. It will not.

The options are not "do nothing" and "kill them." There is a whole lot of alternatives between that.

Yes, the bankers acted disgusting and it is even worse that they get to walk free. But randomly hanging people in the street is not an option any civilized nation in this day and age should take.

It is the same idiotic thought that has people say things like "nuke ISIS" without thinking it through, while safely sitting behind a computer and thinking you won't be impacted by the outcome.

I agree. A civilized nations says 'you bankers are bad boys. Please never do it again!' and the bankers turn around and sue the government because they feel they didnt profit enough from the bailouts and the no jailtime for anyone involved. In the mean time the government does nothing because haha the government was the bankers all along! But at least we are a civilized nation and we can rest easy.

Because a civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets,but by slowly starving them through paying them wages which are not liveable.

A civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets, but by denying them the healthcare they need.

A civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets, but by outsourcing manufacturing jobs to sweat shops.

A civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets, but by selling arms and weapons to known terrorists, dictators and drug dealers.

I am glad i live in a civilized nation which does not kill people.

 

[ClosingADoor]

People like spewing out the word "civilized" while completely ignoring history. No matter how civilized you think humans are it's not gonna change the fact that past a certain point, humans will resort to violence.

Just to be clear, I don't condone hanging anyone in the streets, and I'm not naive enough to think that it's gonna be all gravy. I fully understand the repercussions of such actions. However, past a certain point, whether it be 10/50/100 years from now, once that little glimmer of hope runs out, it could go south really fast.

I find the sitting behind a computer bit ironic. Power is slowly being taken away, but it's all good to some of you as long as you have that little bit of comfort. The world can go to complete shit, just as long as we have our internet and people don't die it's all good. smh.

I agree that wars and revolutions happen eventually. I just don't think we should actively hope for it. I certainly don't want to live through a bloody revolution while other options can be taken.

I agree. A civilized nations says 'you bankers are bad boys. Please never do it again!' and the bankers turn around and sue the government because they feel they didnt profit enough from the bailouts and the no jailtime for anyone involved. In the mean time the government does nothing because haha the government was the bankers all along! But at least we are a civilized nation and we can rest easy.

Because a civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets,but by slowly starving them through paying them wages which are not liveable.

A civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets, but by denying them the healthcare they need.

A civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets, but by outsourcing manufacturing jobs to sweat shops.

A civilized nation kills not by hanging people in the streets, but by selling arms and weapons to known terrorists, dictators and drug dealers.

I am glad i live in a civilized nation which does not kill people.

Yes, because by not wanting people hanged in the streets, I am automatically supporting a broken healthcare system and other bullshit. Good thinking!

How about we figure out a way to fix the things broken in society without resorting to useless violence that will only make matters worse.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

It's no bogeyman, it's just a shortcut way to lumber some of the biggest financial institutions and banks under one catch all. It's additionally fitting because pretty much all of them are based in Wall Street. In other words, the latter has become the epicentre and home for many of the institutes in question, which is why the phrase has stuck.

No, it isn't because they're not the same. The banks that were bailed out aren't the ones suing but that's still the narrative this thread clings to. Think about it this way, if you acted this way about NeoGAF you would be banned. All it does it paint your narrative to make you feel better, it has no actual meaning.

 

[JinjoUnchained]

Should of let the system implode.

Agreed. The financial crisis was a classic investment bubble: massively overvalued, under collateralized assets that all became insolvent at once. The best solution is to let the greedy speculators go bust and lose their shirt, both to lower prices back to a sustainable level and to avoid any future moral hazards for similar lending/investment activities in the future.

And, no, I don't believe this would automatically trigger "the next Depression" or w/e fear tactics these "too big to fail" companies were spreading. If they went down, they'd go through the bankruptcy process and their productive assets would be sold to more prudent and better managed businesses.

To use a gaming analogy, think of THQ. They went bankrupt, but we still got Saint's Row IV and South Park: The Stick of Truth. The bankruptcy process works.

Oh, and if the downturn was really that severe, we could have bailed out everyday citizens and taxpayers instead of propping up the same shitty companies that created the bubble.

 

[HarryHengst]

I agree that wars and revolutions happen eventually. I just don't think we should actively hope for it. I certainly don't want to live through a bloody revolution while other options can be taken.


Yes, because by not wanting people hanged in the streets, I am automatically supporting a broken healthcare system and other bullshit. Good thinking!

How about we figure out a way to fix the things broken in society without resorting to useless violence that will only make matters worse.

It will literally not be possible to fix the system as long as capitalism reigns. Espcially since the capitalist class and the government are so completely intertwined that you cannot hurt the capitalists and their interests without hurting the people who make the rules.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I don't think a single person in this thread actually read the article in the OP.

That's how I feel.

Instead, a misleading title that does not actually tell us any useful information has shaped the discussion of the thread.

 

[Bigboss242]

.

 

[Robot Pants]

careful with your comments guys/gals. DOJ is watching

 

[FreezeSSC]

As expected Greenberg has won, but was awarded no damages.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-starr-wins-trial-but-no-damages-in-aig-suit

Gse's up next doj must be shitting bricks right now.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

As expected Greenberg has won, but was awarded no damages.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-starr-wins-trial-but-no-damages-in-aig-suit

Gse's up next doj must be shitting bricks right now.

Sounds like the judge was like yeah OK technically some procedures were violated, but shareholders would have had nothing if not for the intervention. So yeah you win but your award is zero dollars. Basically he got USFL'd. I'm not sure if DoJ is shaking if this is the likely outcome here.

Next time, the government should just let it burn. And the shareholders can go chew lemons.

 

[FreezeSSC]

Sounds like the judge was like yeah OK technically some procedures were violated, but shareholders would have had nothing if not for the intervention. So yeah you win but your award is zero dollars. Basically he got USFL'd. I'm not sure if DoJ is shaking if this is the likely outcome here.

Next time, the government should just let it burn. And the shareholders can go chew lemons.

Doj should be worried, not because of this trial but because what the u.s. government has done with the gse's is the equivalent of a Russian or Venezuela style coupe in which they've tried to cover up. They've done a good job barring most of the lawsuits from getting to trial by using a weakly worded portion of the housing and economic recovery act, but some of the cases are currently advancing to trial soon. This victory in AIG will lay a precedent for the judges to rule off since nothing like this has occurred since probably the great depression.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Sounds like the judge was like yeah OK technically some procedures were violated, but shareholders would have had nothing if not for the intervention. So yeah you win but your award is zero dollars. Basically he got USFL'd. I'm not sure if DoJ is shaking if this is the likely outcome here.

Next time, the government should just let it burn. And the shareholders can go chew lemons.

Disagree. Doing nothing would make it worse. Though there should have been more emphasis on bailing out homeowners, most of the gop and conservative democrats would have opposed this. The problem is that there isn't enough done to prevent these things from happening. Banks need to be smaller, short term goals need to be emphasized less over long term solvency, and there needs to be stronger oversight, especially criminologically. These lessons should have been learned from the S&L crisis