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[StarWolf]

There's a definite interest in keeping women insecure and buying shit they don't need. We're talking billion dollar industries.

As you say, it is a billion dollar industry. Indeed it is run mostly by men, however, do you really think it would change if women were in charge? Hypothetically if all the shareholders were women as the CEO, President, what have you, do you really believe they'd be any less willing to keep with the status quo to keep money rolling in? I highly doubt it. Not saying the ads and whatnot are right, just that there are just as many greedy/selfish women that don't care who they target so long as they get $$$.

 

[pigeon]

As you say, it is a billion dollar industry. Indeed it is run mostly by men, however, do you really think it would change if women were in charge? Hypothetically if all the shareholders were women as the CEO, President, what have you, do you really believe they'd be any less willing to keep with the status quo to keep money rolling in? I highly doubt it. Not saying the ads and whatnot are right, just that there are just as many greedy/selfish women that don't care who they target so long as they get $$$.

I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that women can't be part of the patriarchy as well as men.

 

[Always-honest]

Yes, can't stand that women are treated so poorly in most parts of the world.

Insecure men rule the world.

 

[Future]

Whenever I hear people bitching about the media, sex objects, breast implants etc... I feel like its from people that don't know how the male brain works. There is a reason why prostitution is a one way street, why there is only one real kind of strip club, why a woman in a bikini can cause car accidents, and the like. Advertising and media plays on this just like games nowadays play on the dopamine rush of achievements. That shit ain't gonna change, and that's not what is keeping women down.

Men know this shit. That's why it's a frequent theme across the world to control women's clothing, victim blame as if attire is the reason for certain crimes, etc. Men know the affect of a woman's appearance, but the problem is they use it to justify bullshit. That, among other things, is what needs to change

Putting a cake in the window of a store does not justify you breaking in and taking it. That also doesn't mean you are going to leave your door unlocked so its easy to take. This is the most misunderstood theme when it comes to victim blaming and similar threads IMO. Some people truly victim blame, others are talking about general advice for criminal behavior. This advice is not bad and it does not demean women. However, it can be used to justify crimes or insinuate that there was no crime at all due to the victim, and that's where lines get crossed.

Like race, gender definitely puts you in a class in society. The barriers are slowly crumbling but there is still more to do. Like affirmative action, there may be a case to provide more assistance to help women jump out the hole that has been dug for years. I don't know what the solution is in other parts of the world, however, where class differences can be ingrained in the culture

 

[Xun]

I always laugh at guys that don't want to hit back women. Who the fuck cares what gender the attacker is.

Perhaps they don't hit back knowing all too well they'll most likely get the blame for the whole thing?

 

[Sanky Panky]

Are you trying to insinuate that all women who get cosmetic surgery are too stupid to know its to look sexier? Because I'm sure plenty understand the risks and reasons.

There's nothing wrong with cosmetic surgery. There's nothing wrong with women trying to look sexier for men and men trying to look sexier for women. And surgery is a fairly major step for a woman to take that the vast majority of women do NOT take; social pressures on beauty boil down pretty simply to a little makeup and not being too skinny or fat. But that has virtually been human society's social ideas on beauty for thousands upon thousands of years.
l

Social pressure only to have a little make-up? Here is an excerpt from an ad for a hair styling product featured in magazines aimed at teen girls:

Your breasts may be too big, too saggy, too pert, too flat, too full, too apart, too close together, too A-cup, too lopsided, too jiggly, too pale, too padded, too pointy, too pendulous, or just two mosquito bites.

The ad ends with saying "Hey, but at least you'll have great hair!!" Your comment is simply the typical male response, coming from a less informed perspective about the day to day exposure to scrutiny and objectification. When was the last time you picked up a teen girl magazine? These images are teachers to our children whether we like it or not. They are exposed to thousands of advertisements per day.

Devo, you mentioned that I criticized women who would get cosmetic surgery for health reasons? I didn't think that I would have to highlight that... of course if the reason for body modification was due to health (or honestly for that matter any other reason that did not include to attract the male gender and be accepted as sexually desirable and therefor of some kind of value) that I find that absolutely acceptable. I thought it was obvious from my positions. I think that even if you choose to modify your body to be more sexually acceptable to men its alright...I just think millions of women would do it less if they could recognize the capitalistic and patriarchal manipulation at work behind why they're just dying to have giant unnatural breasts. Many women retort that the reason for
-wearing makeup
perfume
moisturizer
ripping their hair out by the roots (waxing shaving, etc)
chemically altering the texture or color of their hair
altering skin color with bleach or self tanner
polishing painting fingernails/toenails

is that it's "for themselves" How the hell can this be true? Is it possible that women who practice most of these (or all or even some) on the daily are really doing it because it makes them feel good? Or does the acceptance, encouragement, and reward that comes from men liking them this way make them feel good? Every woman should ask herself these questions...as should men.

as for dude who posted picture of African woman partaking in body modification...men do that too in most of those traditions so its incomparable, I'm sorry.

Whenever I hear people bitching about the media, sex objects, breast implants etc... I feel like its from people that don't know how the male brain works. There is a reason why prostitution is a one way street, why there is only one real kind of strip club, why a woman in a bikini can cause car accidents, and the like. Advertising and media plays on this just like games nowadays play on the dopamine rush of achievements. That shit ain't gonna change, and that's not what is keeping women down.

Men know this shit. That's why it's a frequent theme across the world to control women's clothing, victim blame as if attire is the reason for certain crimes, etc. Men know the affect of a woman's appearance, but the problem is they use it to justify bullshit. That, among other things, is what needs to change

I think that both men and women are hyper aware of female sexuality, and its impact on society. Sex is power. The real problem is that women's value is determined by their appearance according to the media, whereas man's value is determined by what they do, the power they hold, and not merely what they look like. There's exceptions to every rule and slow change is on the rise...but until a woman is valued more for her contributions to society instead of how well she can sexually arouse her male counterparts, there will never be equality. Also calling it bitching is using dismissive language that belittles the issue in the first place. It's legitimate. So are women. Maybe language like that is the reason people don't like to talk about it...and the cycle continues.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Social pressure only to have a little make-up? Here is an excerpt from an ad for a hair styling product featured in magazines aimed at teen girls:



The ad ends with saying "Hey, but at least you'll have great hair!!" Your comment is simply the typical male response, coming from a less informed perspective about the day to day exposure to scrutiny and objectification. When was the last time you picked up a teen girl magazine? These images are teachers to our children whether we like it or not. They are exposed to thousands of advertisements per day.

Devo, you mentioned that I criticized women who would get cosmetic surgery for health reasons? I didn't think that I would have to highlight that... of course if the reason for body modification was due to health (or honestly for that matter any other reason that did not include to attract the male gender and be accepted as sexually desirable and therefor of some kind of value) that I find that absolutely acceptable. I thought it was obvious from my positions. I think that even if you choose to modify your body to be more sexually acceptable to men its alright...I just think millions of women would do it less if they could recognize the capitalistic and patriarchal manipulation at work behind why they're just dying to have giant unnatural breasts. Many women retort that the reason for
-wearing makeup
perfume
moisturizer
ripping their hair out by the roots (waxing shaving, etc)
chemically altering the texture or color of their hair
altering skin color with bleach or self tanner
polishing painting fingernails/toenails

is that it's "for themselves" How the hell can this be true? Is it possible that women who practice most of these (or all or even some) on the daily are really doing it because it makes them feel good? Or does the acceptance, encouragement, and reward that comes from men liking them this way make them feel good? Every woman should ask herself these questions...as should men.

as for dude who posted picture of African woman partaking in body modification...men do that too in most of those traditions so its incomparable, I'm sorry.



I think that both men and women are hyper aware of female sexuality, and its impact on society. Sex is power. The real problem is that women's value is determined by their appearance according to the media, whereas man's value is determined by what they do, the power they hold, and not merely what they look like. There's exceptions to every rule and slow change is on the rise...but until a woman is valued more for her contributions to society instead of how well she can sexually arouse her male counterparts, there will never be equality. Also calling it bitching is using dismissive language that belittles the issue in the first place. It's legitimate. So are women. Maybe language like that is the reason people don't like to talk about it...and the cycle continues.

I can't for the life understand this. By the same extension of logic, is it ok to rape a woman that is wearing a "slutty dress"? Or they should be told not to worn certain clothes because it will make them be raped? I mean by your logic they could never be wearing the dress for themselves, it would always have to be for the attention of a man so they shouldn't be mad when something happens to them right? I mean they were craving attention and they got it, what did they think would happen? It sounds so much like the nonsense that started the slutwalk stuff.

It just seems way too close to the nonsense people say in relation to rape stuff that it can never be for something they want, it's obviously just to attract men.

 

[Sanky Panky]

I can't for the life understand this. By the same extension of logic, is it ok to rape a woman that is wearing a "slutty dress"? Or they should be told not to worn certain clothes because it will make them be raped? I mean by your logic they could never be wearing the dress for themselves, it would always have to be for the attention of a man so they shouldn't be mad when something happens to them right? I mean they were craving attention and they got it, what did they think would happen? It sounds so much like the nonsense that started the slutwalk stuff.

It just seems way too close to the nonsense people say in relation to rape stuff that it can never be for something they want, it's obviously just to attract men.

First of all, this is sankys girlfriend and I have been contributing on all of the posts. I have never and will never say or think that it is acceptable to blame a girl for her own rape or sexual assault. No one deserves to be raped no matter what they wear, say, or do. NO ONE ON EARTH. You are really not getting the message of what I am trying to say. I think we all need to understand the motivation behind our self damaging behavior so we can at least see it for what it is and not tell ourselves that we are doing everything possible to fit an idealized, male-created version of the perfect woman because it "makes us feel good".

This is very problematic to me and a direct example of the insidious ways advertising effects women... and by men and women both conveying females as a perfect set of body parts women are viewed as things...objects. It is far easier to hit or force sex on a thing than it is to enact violence on a living breathing human being. Men have power, men set the norms. We operate within a system and we all enforce the norms. I would never blame a victim, I would just like to see some more education concerning why we participate in these practices...it would have an impact on how we view women AND how we treat them.

Our daughters and sons will be seeing thousands of these during their lifetimes.

***Note to mods: this is not meant for advertisement, but is relevant to our discussion. If it is against the TOS I can remove the image.

 

[Suairyu]

Many women retort that the reason for
-wearing makeup
perfume
moisturizer
ripping their hair out by the roots (waxing shaving, etc)
chemically altering the texture or color of their hair
altering skin color with bleach or self tanner
polishing painting fingernails/toenails

is that it's "for themselves" How the hell can this be true?

Moisturiser is important. A lot of people have skin that dries out easily, especially during the colder months. Taking care of your skin is something both men and women should do and I don't think it's honest to lump that in the same category as makeup or skin bleaching.

edit - jesus tittyfucking christ at that Dolce & Gabbana ad.

 

[Jado]

I can't for the life understand this. By the same extension of logic, is it ok to rape a woman that is wearing a "slutty dress"? Or they should be told not to worn certain clothes because it will make them be raped? I mean by your logic they could never be wearing the dress for themselves, it would always have to be for the attention of a man so they shouldn't be mad when something happens to them right? I mean they were craving attention and they got it, what did they think would happen? It sounds so much like the nonsense that started the slutwalk stuff.

It just seems way too close to the nonsense people say in relation to rape stuff that it can never be for something they want, it's obviously just to attract men.

According to Sanky, a woman can't possibly look good for herself -- well, she sorta can, but it means she doesn't really comprehend the consequences of her actions and how they reflect on her as a person. We are lucky he, in his superior wisdom, has figured it all out. A woman should especially not "devalue" herself by looking attractive for the attention of another person. Feeling attractive, wanting to be attractive to others and receiving reasonable levels of attention, that's just wrong. All sarcasm aside...

I think that even if you choose to modify your body to be more sexually acceptable to men its alright...I just think

In other words, cutting through the condescension, you don't think it's alright.

Sanky, I don't think you comprehend you come off as an old man from a past decade telling girls not to wear their skirts or go dancing. You're fighting for an old values system that says we all need to exhibit a limited number of "acceptable" behaviors to be truly upstanding individuals and earn the respect of others... or else! Step back for a moment and realize you have a very strong personal bias on what society should deem acceptable, and as a result you're passing off a lot of shitty judgment onto others.

does the acceptance, encouragement, and reward that comes from men liking them this way make them feel good?

What if it does? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man or woman wanting to look attractive for self and to draw acceptable levels of attention from desirable others. Who fucking cares? It doesn't make you dumb or less of a person.

BTW, I don't see anything wrong with the ad you posted. Rather than trying to destroy all images like those, we should be educating people that it's not some sort of admission that we should attack others. It's just models posing for art and/or advertising. I don't wanna live in a shitty world where visually striking photography like this can't exist because it's not PC or some dumbass may take it as a thumbs up to rape. Also, some of us dont/won't have daughters and sons. Hence, my prior remark that the two of you are coming at this from (and projecting) a limited, old-timey values perspective.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

First of all, this is sankys girlfriend and I have been contributing on all of the posts. I have never and will never say or think that it is acceptable to blame a girl for her own rape or sexual assault. No one deserves to be raped no matter what they wear, say, or do. NO ONE ON EARTH. You are really not getting the message of what I am trying to say. I think we all need to understand the motivation behind our self damaging behavior so we can at least see it for what it is and not tell ourselves that we are doing everything possible to fit an idealized, male-created version of the perfect woman because it "makes us feel good".

This is very problematic to me and a direct example of the insidious ways advertising effects women... and by men and women both conveying females as a perfect set of body parts women are viewed as things...objects. It is far easier to hit or force sex on a thing than it is to enact violence on a living breathing human being. Men have power, men set the norms. We operate within a system and we all enforce the norms. I would never blame a victim, I would just like to see some more education concerning why we participate in these practices...it would have an impact on how we view women AND how we treat them.

Our daughters and sons will be seeing thousands of these during their lifetimes.

***Note to mods: this is not meant for advertisement, but is relevant to our discussion. If it is against the TOS I can remove the image.

But you're talking in absolutes that they can NEVER do anything except for the attention of another. It's something that is used to dismiss rape constantly by saying things like "well look how she was dressed" or by the stupid assumption that the way they dress is the reason they are raped when statistics show that is an extremely low percentage and not the reason behind rape. You keep making absolute statements which seem to coincide with the logic people currently use to dismiss rape and is the reason things like the slutwalk were created due to people perpetuating this logic even though it's completely false. You can sidestep around it all you want but by saying that everything they do to their bodies or for their appearance is for a man then you are agreeing with that mindset and that's a problem.

Edit: To put it another way if you're going to get hung up on rape, if a girl wears a revealing or "sexy" dress or clothing and gets harassed or cat calls, does she deserve it? By your logic she clearly can't do it for herself and obviously only doing it for men so shouldn't she be ok with the attention she gets? I mean she only dressed that way to get reactions like and stuff like that so isn't it her fault for wearing that clothing? If she didn't wear that clothing it wouldn't have happened to her.

 

[Sanky Panky]

According to Sanky, a woman can't possibly look good for herself -- well, she sorta can, but it means she doesn't really comprehend the consequences of her actions and how they reflect on her as a person. We are lucky he, in his superior wisdom, has figured it all out. A woman should especially not "devalue" herself by looking attractive for the attention of another person. Feeling attractive, wanting to be attractive to others and receiving reasonable levels of attention, that's just wrong. All sarcasm aside..

One thing is wanting to look attractive, another one is risking your life to achieve ideals of flawlessness that DO NOT exist in real human females. Teen girls are learning to hate their bodies because they will never achieve the ideal presented as their model, and they are learning to hate themselves because they think their societal value depends on their beauty. If you want to take it even further, women subject themselves to danger in order to not come off as a "bitch". Tyra Banks did an entire episode on how an alarming amount of girls were led to a hotel by a "modeling agent"...he was in a robe there was duct tape a knife and rope on the table and the girls all went in, stayed in, and finished the interview with the objects in plain sight. These are not coincidences.

Also...I said this was sankys gf...I am a twenty eight year old woman. I have five sisters and I am the only one who has not been raped. You sound insulting, ignorant, and typical. If you can't see anything wrong with that advertisement, then it is a complete waste of time to even discuss this further with you. It is quite saddening.

Sanky, I don't think you comprehend you come off as an old man from a past decade telling girls not to wear their skirts or go dancing. You're fighting for an old values system that says we all need to exhibit a limited number of "acceptable" behaviors to be truly upstanding individuals and earn the respect of others... or else! Step back for a moment and realize you have a very strong personal bias on what society should deem acceptable, and as a result you're passing off a lot of shitty judgment onto others

I am not arguing for what is acceptable, and free speech in any form is a fundamental right. What I think needs to be regulated, is something that is having such a negative impact on women and girls. You don't have to grip your keys as a weapon when you walk to your car at night, so I don't really expect you to understand. It's not pushing for an "old value system". It is pushing for a NEW value system that doesn't promote sexual objectification of women. As part of the new system, let's also address to the fact that female insults are aimed at sexuality (whore, slut, cunt, skank, etc), that both genders use from a very young age.

You guys have taken a single example of how women are being influenced by the media, and automatically accused me of victim blaming. So instead of breast implants, lets use this way that girls perpetuate the system. Girls call themselves these names as funny endearments, is that victim blaming? To degrade yourself with insults created by men as an acceptable term for a friend? come on. We do not recognize women's rights or respect that theyre under fire the way we do even with race and homosexuality. This is why Ashley Banfield was called a slut on air and nothing was done. Twice. Imus on his show, uses feminine sexual slurs almost on a daily basis but was only fired when he added the African-American slur. We do not take this issue seriously. That is literally half of the problem. And many people here are providing great examples of that.

BTW, I don't see anything wrong with the ad you posted. Rather than trying to destroy all images like those, we should be educating people that it's not some sort of admission that we should attack others. It's just models posing for art and/or advertising. I don't wanna live in a shitty world where visually striking photography like this can't exist because it's not PC or some dumbass may take it as a thumbs up to rape. Also, some of us dont/won't have daughters and sons. Hence, my prior remark that the two of you are coming at this from (and projecting) a limited, old-timey values perspective.

Please imagine this same ad, with the woman, being a black male, and the threatening men are white males. Would you also see nothing wrong with this image? Would you also see nothing wrong with this image if your children were exposed to it THOUSANDS of times a day?

Congrats on your choice to not have kids. I hope that doesn't deter others from giving a shit about humans that are still viewed as second-class citizens (even if they are not blood related).

But you're talking in absolutes that they can NEVER do anything except for the attention of another. It's something that is used to dismiss rape constantly by saying things like "well look how she was dressed" or by the stupid assumption that the way they dress is the reason they are raped when statistics show that is an extremely low percentage and not the reason behind rape. You keep making absolute statements which seem to coincide with the logic people currently use to dismiss rape and is the reason things like the slutwalk were created due to people perpetuating this logic even though it's completely false. You can sidestep around it all you want but by saying that everything they do to their bodies or for their appearance is for a man then you are agreeing with that mindset and that's a problem.

Edit: To put it another way if you're going to get hung up on rape, if a girl wears a revealing or "sexy" dress or clothing and gets harassed or cat calls, does she deserve it? By your logic she clearly can't do it for herself and obviously only doing it for men so shouldn't she be ok with the attention she gets? I mean she only dressed that way to get reactions like and stuff like that so isn't it her fault for wearing that clothing? If she didn't wear that clothing it wouldn't have happened to her.

I never said this, and this is clearly not going anywhere. No matter how many times I re-iterate that nobody deserves to be raped, you keep insisting that this is what I mean. I never even mentioned clothing, but an example of an extreme potentially life-threatening surgical procedure. I will abandon my argument, if someone can convince me that women cut open their breasts for some sort of self-expression. If you think they do it to "feel good about themselves", then why is it a collective pattern for women to want big breasts, small waist, straight noses, full lips, and tight skin? Wow! That is SO weird that all of these elements seem to be exact replicas of the objectified male-created female figure. (Scratches chin in bewildered confusion)

Us ladies are so silly! Strange that we ALL "express" ourselves with the same surgeries, hair, make-up, clothes, and eating disorders. - Sanky's gf

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

One thing is wanting to look attractive, another one is risking your life to achieve ideals of flawlessness that DO NOT exist in real human females. Teen girls are learning to hate their bodies because they will never achieve the ideal presented as their model, and they are learning to hate themselves because they think their societal value depends on their beauty. If you want to take it even further, women subject themselves to danger in order to not come off as a "bitch". Tyra Banks did an entire episode on how an alarming amount of girls were led to a hotel by a "modeling agent"...he was in a robe there was duct tape a knife and rope on the table and the girls all went in, stayed in, and finished the interview with the objects in plain sight. These are not coincidences.

Also...I said this was sankys gf...I am a twenty eight year old woman. I have five sisters and I am the only one who has not been raped. You sound insulting, ignorant, and typical. If you can't see anything wrong with that advertisement, then it is a complete waste of time to even discuss this further with you. It is quite saddening.



I am not arguing for what is acceptable, and free speech in any form is a fundamental right. What I think needs to be regulated, is something that is having such a negative impact on women and girls. You don't have to grip your keys as a weapon when you walk to your car at night, so I don't really expect you to understand. It's not pushing for an "old value system". It is pushing for a NEW value system that doesn't promote sexual objectification of women. As part of the new system, let's also address to the fact that female insults are aimed at sexuality (whore, slut, cunt, skank, etc), that both genders use from a very young age.

You guys have taken a single example of how women are being influenced by the media, and automatically accused me of victim blaming. So instead of breast implants, lets use this way that girls perpetuate the system. Girls call themselves these names as funny endearments, is that victim blaming? To degrade yourself with insults created by men as an acceptable term for a friend? come on. We do not recognize women's rights or respect that theyre under fire the way we do even with race and homosexuality. This is why Ashley Banfield was called a slut on air and nothing was done. Twice. Imus on his show, uses feminine sexual slurs almost on a daily basis but was only fired when he added the African-American slur. We do not take this issue seriously. That is literally half of the problem. And many people here are providing great examples of that.



Please imagine this same ad, with the woman, being a black male, and the threatening men are white males. Would you also see nothing wrong with this image? Would you also see nothing wrong with this image if your children were exposed to it THOUSANDS of times a day?

Congrats on your choice to not have kids. I hope that doesn't deter others from giving a shit about humans that are still viewed as second-class citizens (even if they are not blood related).



I never said this, and this is clearly not going anywhere. No matter how many times I re-iterate that nobody deserves to be raped, you keep insisting that this is what I mean. I never even mentioned clothing, but an example of an extreme potentially life-threatening surgical procedure. I will abandon my argument, if someone can convince me that women cut open their breasts for some sort of self-expression. If you think they do it to "feel good about themselves", then why is it a collective pattern for women to want big breasts, small waist, straight noses, full lips, and tight skin? Wow! That is SO weird that all of these elements seem to be exact replicas of the objectified male-created female figure. (Scratches chin in bewildered confusion)

Us ladies are so silly! Strange that we ALL "express" ourselves with the same surgeries, hair, make-up, clothes, and eating disorders. - Sanky's gf

You said:

"is that it's "for themselves" How the hell can this be true?"

You should read what I already quoted and responded to.

Edit: And you ignored my edit posing another issue since you're getting all upset over rape instead of reading what I'm saying. You're right, this isn't going anywhere but not for the reasons you claim.

 

[bjb]

Man this thread is really bizarre. Keeping track of the OP or his girlfriend and whatever point is trying to be made on the same account.

That being said, how can you possibly be offended by that image? It's fucking art. By Dolce and Gabana no less. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if a woman conceived the entire shoot or idea. Are you trying to say that they're rape apologists / promoters?

 

[Sanky Panky]

You said:

"is that it's "for themselves" How the hell can this be true?"

You should read what I already quoted and responded to.

Edit: And you ignored my edit posing another issue since you're getting all upset over rape instead of reading what I'm saying. You're right, this isn't going anywhere but not for the reasons you claim.

I don't understand...I didnt ignore your post edit about clothing and women and saying well she was asking for it...I directly addressed it so I am confused as to what you mean. And it's a woman's choice to dress how she wants, and stuff jelly beans in her breasts if she so desires. My problem is the uneducated reinforcement of this or the inability to understand the PHYSICAL violence that results in the portrayal of women in these ways as well as their own adoption of the practices.

Women getting boob jobs doesn't directly impact me, however the amount of women undergoing these enhancements, and the fact that they all are magically illustrating the MALE sexualized feminine beauty ideal, AND this is a repetitive image (aka the only one we see most times when women are portrayed in these campaigns) does contribute to how men treat me...why they grab my ass in bars and think i am public property. Why they harass me and have hurt me. These are all bars that create a cage. Unacceptable. -sankys gf

Man this thread is really bizarre. Keeping track of the OP or his girlfriend and whatever point is trying to be made on the same account.

That being said, how can you possibly be offended by that image? It's fucking art. By Dolce and Gabana no less. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if a woman conceived the entire shoot or idea. Are you trying to say that they're rape apologists / promoters?

Again, would it be art if it was a black man instead?

If a woman conceived it, just goes to show that everyone perpetuates the stereotype to maintain the system. It is the main idea behind every of our posts so far.

Some more fine art (again mods, I can remove these if they are against the TOS):

Valentino Ad

BMW

Men's magazine

 

[Jado]

Also...I said this was sankys gf...I am a twenty eight year old woman. I have five sisters and I am the only one who has not been raped. You sound insulting, ignorant, and typical. If you can't see anything wrong with that advertisement, then it is a complete waste of time to even discuss this further with you. It is quite saddening.

Your personal history doesn't lend any more weight to your argument, not does it detract from mine. The photo/ad needs to be taken into context. The men are not literally attacking that woman nor it is a promotion of rape and violence. It's art; high fashion photography ultimately meant to be visually pleasing. Consider for moment that this could have existed in the collection of a professional photographer's portfolio before D&G purchased it for their own use. Would you go after the photographer and claim he/she is promoting rape and violence? That's a huge a stretch, especially when you're ignoring the intended audience. What about a photog or illustrator whose interests lie in capturing the nude female figure in intriguing (possibly sexual or submissive) poses? Censor or get rid of it because a kid may come across it? Because someone like you might not approve? You made an excellent point with the ad that has purposefully insulting language targeted at teens, but you're way off on this.

I am not arguing for what is acceptable...

Okay.

What I think needs to be regulated...

Well, except you are.

We do not recognize women's rights or respect that theyre under fire the way we do even with race and homosexuality.

What are you basing this on? That's a matter of opinion and frankly it's not a contest on who has it worse.

Please imagine this same ad, with the woman, being a black male, and the threatening men are white males. Would you also see nothing wrong with this image? Would you also see nothing wrong with this image if your children were exposed to it THOUSANDS of times a day?

Again, context is very important. No, I wouldn't be offended if it were a black man (or a hispanic one like myself) being held down if there was intellectual/artistic value behind the piece. If it were created with malicious intent and the banner image for a racist group? Completely different. I had no problem with the Sony PSP "black vs. white" ad (Google it if you're not sure of the reference) because I understood its purpose and honestly, the quality of the photography was awesome. If imagery obviously intended for adults is making it into the hands of a young child and you're a parent, then take personal responsibility to fix that -- don't demand we get rid of all of it because you don't have the common sense to supervise properly. If it's public imagery, then (as a good parent) diminishing the impact of those ads goes a long way. This just stinks of the people who blame video games for mass shootings over mental health issues and lousy parenting.

Congrats on your choice to not have kids.

Never said I don't have kids or don't plan to have any.

I will abandon my argument, if someone can convince me

No. There are many perfectly sane, normal, intelligent individuals who choose to alter their bodies and none of them (or people who support their choices) have to please you with a so-called convincing answer. Continue making your case against ads that only serve to degrade the vulnerable. In regards to cosmetic surgery and the personal choices of adults, consider for a moment you're not necessarily any smarter than those who partake in it, that they're making informed decisions, and simply let them be.

 

[A.E Suggs]

I'm willing to bet until there's a world that has no need for money these problems aren't going to go away for anyone. Some of our jobs run by exploiting people(you know Necessary evil and all that) and taking them away means taking away jobs.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Your personal history doesn't lend any more weight to your argument, not does it detract from mine. The photo/ad needs to be taken into context. The men are not literally attacking that woman nor it is a promotion of rape and violence. It's art; high fashion photography ultimately meant to be visually pleasing. .

If talking about males, would your personal experience as a male matter in this? How is living and breathing this every day as a woman, "not relevant" to this discussion? how dare you? sexist and insulting...

You sound very privileged, and like you haven't experienced these things on a personal level. You're right, they're not attacking her, just getting into position to, holding her down by her neck. She is raising her pelvis as if she likes it, wants it, and can't get enough. Children learn by mimicry. Images can be whatever they want to be, but the mass exposure to our society and the violence it has resulted in (remember we see these images repeated for the last 75 years). This image absolutely promotes rape and violence towards women. How you find this image visually pleasing, raises some concerns about your own views of women.

What are you basing this on? That's a matter of opinion and frankly it's not a contest on who has it worse.

Did you read my comment on Imus vs Ashley Banfield?

Again, context is very important. No, I wouldn't be offended if it were a black man (or a hispanic one like myself) being held down if there was intellectual/artistic value behind the piece.

Ok, let's talk about context here. Under what context is this image visually pleasing? remember, this is being used to sell apparel.

If imagery obviously intended for adults is making it into the hands of a young child and you're a parent, then take personal responsibility to fix that -- don't demand we get rid of all of it because you don't have the common sense to supervise properly. If it's public imagery, then (as a good parent) diminishing the impact of those ads goes a long way. This just stinks of the people who blame video games for mass shootings over mental health issues and lousy parenting.

Tell me how to diminish the impact of a billion dollar industry. Would it be easier to address the underlying issue?

In regards to cosmetic surgery and the personal choices of adults, consider for a moment you're not necessarily any smarter than those who partake in it, that they're making informed decisions, and simply let them be.

Is a teen girl thinking about perpetuating the violent implications of over-sexualizing herself by getting bigger breasts?

 

[Apath]

I agree with pretty much everything in the OP. I just have a couple questions, and I don't mean to pivot this to "men's rights":

How is societal preference towards large breasts any different from the preference towards big penises? And why is it harmful for a woman to take pictures of her body and send it to her boyfriend, but a boy doing the same for his girlfriend isn't?

I just don't see women desiring breast implants any different from men wanting a large penis. The source is pressure from society, but what people want or why they want them is really their business, and theirs alone. I also do not see harm in women sending sexual pictures of themselves to their lover as long as they aren't coerced or attained in malicious ways. A lot of people get excited taking pictures of themselves for someone they care about.

 

[Mudkips]

In a thread about violence against woman the first reply is "but what about men".

Men are much more likely than women to be the victims of violence.
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats

Violence against men is much more frequent, prevalent in media, and accepted, yet it is virtually ignored as being an issue. If you think society accepts, enables, or doesn't do enough to stop violence against women, then by that same measure society expects, demands, and glorifies violence against men.

Is a teen girl thinking about perpetuating the violent implications of over-sexualizing herself by getting bigger breasts?

Large breasts cause violence?

 

[Veelk]

Sanky, I've been becoming more aware of male and female roles in the media that I consume (that is to say, books, movies, shows, etc) and I just have a question because I've been trying to form my own perspective on how men and women should be treated equally. Where as you seem to be advocating that ads like these, where women are objectified and degraded, should stop, I just don't feel that is a realistic goal because people like the idea of dominance. That BMW ad you posted is basically saying that they're cars are as good as having sex with a gorgeous woman. It's a powerful way of selling your product and I don't think that's going to stop. So, instead of trying to stop that, what if there were more advertisements of women dominating men in some way? It atleast would be fair in that it degrades and objectifies both sexes equally. Would you be in support of that?

 

[Devolution]

Sanky at this point you're just lecturing women about their choices in the other direction and disregarding choice and agency. You're infantilizing them as much as any anti-feminist would except your reasons for doing so are different. You're assuming every woman is trying to please a male's gaze instead of looking good for her own reasons. In that way you (and I assume your gf) are painting every woman with the same brush. Explain to me how this isn't sexist.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I don't get the OP. It seems mainly to focus on Islam? Violence against women is a trans-cultural phenomenon. The focus in the OP is rather strange.

I think that the subject matter is important, and I don't want to clutter the thread up with Islam debates. Maybe the OP could remove it? Or move it to the Islam thread? Otherwise I can respond here.

 

[Sanky Panky]

The post uses a direct and a much more obvious example of violating the rights of women...in this case, forcing veiling upon them (or encouraging/rewarding veiling of women, etc). This was just a starting point to give reference and juxtapose a Westernized culture and claim that women who experience a more insidious kind of sexism and violence in this culture are just as endangered. As you can see, not many people really think this is even a problem, or they twist it around to bring the focus back to men...or ignore statistics and experiences to maintain that there is no problem. It's a massive and rampant sociological issue, and if we pretend there isn't a problem, then we don't have to do the work it takes to fix it.

 

[Sanky Panky]

I just don't see women desiring breast implants any different from men wanting a large penis. The source is pressure from society, but what people want or why they want them is really their business, and theirs alone. I also do not see harm in women sending sexual pictures of themselves to their lover as long as they aren't coerced or attained in malicious ways. A lot of people get excited taking pictures of themselves for someone they care about.

I think there is one key difference between wanting a large penis, and wanting breast implants. Guys assume that a bigger penis is desired by women, while the average is fine by most accounts. Aside from porn, is there a big advertising push for men to get bigger penises? if there is a push for bigger penises, is it to promote dominance over other men, and dominance over women? What about breast implants? isn't it to attract attention to a sexual object that men appreciate? they effectively turn a natural part of the body into silicon bags. Where did they get this idea?

Violence against men is much more frequent, prevalent in media, and accepted, yet it is virtually ignored as being an issue. If you think society accepts, enables, or doesn't do enough to stop violence against women, then by that same measure society expects, demands, and glorifies violence against men.

Society glorifies violence against men, because it is usually the main character being powerful, showing dominance, being heroic, etc. When violence against women is being portrayed, it's in a sexual matter, for shock value, or she needs to be rescued (with exceptions to the rule of course). The first step we can all take is to recognize the seriousness of the issue, and not brush it off as "well... more men are killed in movies" stuff. It's a easy cop out to continue to ignore the issue.

Sanky, I've been becoming more aware of male and female roles in the media that I consume (that is to say, books, movies, shows, etc) and I just have a question because I've been trying to form my own perspective on how men and women should be treated equally. Where as you seem to be advocating that ads like these, where women are objectified and degraded, should stop, I just don't feel that is a realistic goal because people like the idea of dominance. That BMW ad you posted is basically saying that they're cars are as good as having sex with a gorgeous woman. It's a powerful way of selling your product and I don't think that's going to stop. So, instead of trying to stop that, what if there were more advertisements of women dominating men in some way? It atleast would be fair in that it degrades and objectifies both sexes equally. Would you be in support of that?

Why degrade and objectify each other in the first place. What I know of the feminist movement (besides maybe a small subset), is that they don't want retaliation for men. They don't want dominance over men. They want to be recognized as human beings for the things they do, not for how they look. That BMW can be taken two ways: 1) the female body is just a faceless object you use to fuck, while you can dream about that car. 2) like you said, driving an object is just the same as fucking another human being. Saying that these don't have an effect on society is naive. It may not be a realistic goal to change it, but that shouldn't stop us for fighting for greater awareness in society. We can all do our part.

Sanky at this point you're just lecturing women about their choices in the other direction and disregarding choice and agency. You're infantilizing them as much as any anti-feminist would except your reasons for doing so are different. You're assuming every woman is trying to please a male's gaze instead of looking good for her own reasons. In that way you (and I assume your gf) are painting every woman with the same brush. Explain to me how this isn't sexist.

Again, aside from health reasons, I am waiting for examples what could be her own reasons for altering her body. I am all for choice, but what I am saying is that they need to be aware of where the idea of bigger breasts came from. If they recognize that the idea of large breasts did NOT come from women, but from the systemic sexualization of the female body AND they still decide to do it, so be it. We can all still agree that they are perpetuating the systemic sexualization of the female body. I have never said that big breasts are conducive to rape. Nothing a woman wears, does, etc should lead to rape. I am saying teen girls and women suffer and subject themselves to operations in order to conform to these male ideals.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Sanky at this point you're just lecturing women about their choices in the other direction and disregarding choice and agency. You're infantilizing them as much as any anti-feminist would except your reasons for doing so are different. You're assuming every woman is trying to please a male's gaze instead of looking good for her own reasons. In that way you (and I assume your gf) are painting every woman with the same brush. Explain to me how this isn't sexist.

To be clear, these posts are all from both of us. I guess I would argue that choice and agency can't really be either if you think you are unaffected by mass advertising...agency without education and information (and kind of just seeing things for what they are) is pretty much the opposite of agency...it's manipulation. These women are moving from subjects to objects in the repetitive imagery used...and if you watched the video, you would have seen a ton of examples of how these ads infantacize women...not my argument. I don't think a woman with implants is stupid, or less than for making that choice. She is actually completely normalized, and a direct product of her culture. I just really need some convincing that the choice was not fed to her by seeing images of this choice being rewarded encouraged and praised on an absolute and constant level. Before I became aware of these things in school, I bought into a lot of these practices too. I felt degraded and robbed once I saw the forest from the trees..(this part just sankys gf).but now I feel like the practices I do participate in are at least informed and I don't feel that great sense of manipulation.

 

[Jado]

You guys have taken a single example of how women are being influenced by the media, and automatically accused me of victim blaming.

[Moments Later]
Is a teen girl thinking about perpetuating the violent implications of over-sexualizing herself by getting bigger breasts?

I don't think you understand the definition of victim blaming, as evidenced above. Furthermore, I specifically said "In regards to cosmetic surgery and the personal choices of adults...," but you keep framing the discussion from the POV of children. In your eyes, is everyone a mindless child under the full control of advertising?

I think it's silly that you pulled the race card to gain sympathy, but dropped/ignored it altogether when I brought up having no issue with proper depictions of racial conflict in well-thought-out artistic pieces, being an ethnic minority myself. Stupefied that you felt it necessary to proclaim women's issues as more significant and troubling than the problems blacks (and now Latinos) face in this country; two entirely different beasts and you do a disservice to each by trying to boost your own cause by trivial, selfish use of the other. Btw, you're the first person ever, IRL included, to call me "privileged." Thanks, got a good laugh out of that one. I'm SO sorry that I can appreciate good photography for what it is and not throw everything up onto a narrow, little soapbox. How dare I?!?

Again, aside from health reasons, I am waiting for examples what could be her own reasons for altering her body. I am all for choice, but what I am saying is that they need to be aware of where the idea of bigger breasts came from.

They don't care where the idea of breast modification came from; or rather, they do care and want to take it back for themselves in disregard of the sexist man who would deny them the ability to take part in something they desire on their very own terms. You keep kicking and screaming that this impossible. Maybe for you, in your own all-knowing mind and misguided good intentions. Don't speak for others, infantilizing adult women as Devo said. For fuck's sake...

 

[Sanky Panky]

I don't think you understand the definition of victim blaming, as evidenced above. Furthermore, I specifically said "In regards to cosmetic surgery and the personal choices of adults...," but you keep framing the discussion from the POV of children. In your eyes, is everyone a mindless child under the full control of advertising?

I am personally concerned about the effect of advertising on teens, especially considering in 2010 (for the US), we have these stats: laser hair removal (69,434 procedures), nose jobs (33,892), teens having botox injections (16,160). 8,892 teenage girls have breast implants.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/22/plastic-surgery-medicine

Whether you want to admit it or not, advertising has a huge effect on children, and it still affects people in their 20's.

I think it's silly that you pulled the race card to gain sympathy, but dropped/ignored it altogether when I brought up having no issue with proper depictions of racial conflict in well-thought-out artistic pieces, being an ethnic minority myself. Stupefied that you felt it necessary to proclaim women's issues as more significant and troubling than the problems blacks (and now Latinos) face in this country; two entirely different beasts and you do a disservice to each by trying to boost your own cause by trivial, selfish use of the other. Btw, you're the first person ever, IRL included, to call me "privileged." Thanks, got a good laugh out of that one. I'm SO sorry that I can appreciate good photography for what it is and not throw everything up onto a narrow, little soapbox. How dare I?!?

I’m neither asking for sympathy, nor am I downplaying the issues faced by blacks and latinos. I am not sure what your definition of a “proper depiction” of racial conflict is, but I fail to see how 5 guys ready to gang up on a girl is anything but denigrating to women. The issues faced by women versus minorities are significant solely on the basis of scope. While minorities are very well systematically oppressed still, women represent more than HALF of the world’s population. Their issues are still being ignored or trivialized, as this thread shows. Finally, you are not being called “privileged” from a monetary point of view. I can simply assume that you have not been harassed like women do, sexually assaulted like many women do, etc etc. Not experiencing what women have to go through puts both you and me in a privileged position.

They don't care where the idea of breast modification came from; or rather, they do care and want to take it back for themselves in disregard of the sexist man who would deny them the ability to take part in something they desire on their very own terms. You keep kicking and screaming that this impossible. Maybe for you, in your own all-knowing mind and misguided good intentions. Don't speak for others, infantilizing adult women as Devo said. For fuck's sake...

Again I ask, where does the natural desire to ravage your own breasts (affecting the pleasure and ability to feed off springs) come from? Where does the pressure to increase your breast size “to feel good” come from? All me and my gf have been saying, that as long as they are aware that they are perpetuating this image, then so be it. Most of them are not, and that lack of awareness includes both sexes, as it is evident from this thread.

 

[faceless007]

Again, aside from health reasons, I am waiting for examples what could be her own reasons for altering her body. I am all for choice, but what I am saying is that they need to be aware of where the idea of bigger breasts came from. If they recognize that the idea of large breasts did NOT come from women, but from the systemic sexualization of the female body AND they still decide to do it, so be it. We can all still agree that they are perpetuating the systemic sexualization of the female body. I have never said that big breasts are conducive to rape. Nothing a woman wears, does, etc should lead to rape. I am saying teen girls and women suffer and subject themselves to operations in order to conform to these male ideals.

See my earlier post.

 

[Sanky Panky]

See my earlier post.

I've said many times that there are cases related to health (although you have to question what clothes could she not get into because of her breast size) that warrant surgery. Would you say that this applies to the majority?

It is still funny to me how you guys have made the focus of this thread the woman's right to get implants. I'm not even arguing against that right.

I am updating the OP with this, because like it goes in the real world, the issues of violence against women are sidestepped or ignored. This is also for the "buuh buh men are subjected to violence too" crowd. Let's throw in some facts, that are not from any one source:

http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf

FACTS
- One in every four women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime.1
- 85% of domestic violence victims are women.3
- Historically, females have been most often victimized by someone they knew.4
- Most cases of domestic violence are never reported to the police.
- Almost one-third of female homicide victims that are reported in police records are killed by an intimate partner.14
- In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder.12
- One in 6 women and 1 in 33 men have experienced an attempted or completed rape.10
- 1 in 12 women and 1 in 45 men have been stalked in their lifetime.13 81% of women stalked by a current or former intimate partner are also physically assaulted by that partner; 31% are also sexually assaulted by that partner.13
- Only approximately one-quarter (25%) of all physical assaults, one-fifth (20%) of all rapes, and one-half (50%) of all stalkings perpetuated against females by intimate partners are reported to the police.
- Approximately 20% of the 1.5 million people who experience intimate partner violence annually obtain civil protection orders.1
- Approximately one-half of the orders obtained by women against intimate partners who physically assaulted them were violated.1 More than two-thirds of the restraining orders against intimate partners who raped or stalked the victim were violated.

Legal protection for women varies by state, and it is lackluster. Many of the violence goes unreported because of the chronic message bombarded onto us that women are sub-human and objects of male desire. Women grow up with this mentallity, and those with low self-esteem don't dare to fight back or report the abuse.

But hey... no big deal.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Wait, by the logic how is it ok for women with health problems to get implants? I mean isn't that to be more attractive again from how they are after their medical problems/surgery. Isn't it the motivation then? What's the difference at that point?

Edit: Your shitty condescending tone is really getting annoying. NO ONE here supports or said domestic abuse towards women is ok or acceptable. Go fuck yourself with that kind of bullshit. I'm sure Devo is all for domestic abuse too, it's what she strives for. So needlessly insulting instead of trying to have an actual conversation.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Wait, by the logic how is it ok for women with health problems to get implants? I mean isn't that to be more attractive again from how they are after their medical problems/surgery. Isn't it the motivation then? What's the difference at that point?

How is dealing with a medical issue related to wanting to be more attractive? One is recommended by a doctor to cure a deformity/ailment. Is the deformity here is having natural-looking breast? would a doctor recommend against that?

Edit: You're shitty condescending tone is really getting annoying. NO ONE here supports or said domestic abuse towards women is ok or acceptable. Go fuck yourself with that kind of bullshit. I'm sure Devo is all for domestic abuse too, it's what she strives for. So needlessly insulting instead of trying to have an actual conversation.

no one here supports domestic abuse, yet the topic can be summed up by those who acuse us of victim blaming (for citing an example of a dangerous trend in women), and those who mention that men/other minorities are under the same oppressive forces, as are women. As you can see, these are both means to dismiss the issue, divert the attention from the systematic sexualization/objectification of women (that lead to domestic violence), and continue to ignore this huge world problem. Sorry if some of my disdain comes through in the posts.

All I can hope to do is plant a seed, and then individually we can all decide to take action. We can make those around us aware of all this. However, as long as view 5 men about to gang up on a woman as photographic art, I doubt anything will change.

 

[Count Dookkake]

A number of religious texts could stand to be altered to fit with the expanding role of women in society.

 

[Sanky Panky]

A number of religious texts could stand to be altered to fit with the expanding role of women in society.

I agree. Some need to be gutted. Religion was the mass media then, and still is, with corporations now filling the role of telling us how we want to look or behave.

 

[Takuan]

Is there a year-by-year graph of reported domestic abuse cases in the United States? I'm just curious if there's an observable trend of domestic abuse having increased with the purported increased sexualization/objectification of women in media.

I'm skeptical of the suggestion that there's such a connection. You have cultures that have zero exposure to modern media who, from an ethnocentric view, subjugate and mistreat women as normal practice.

 

[faceless007]

I've said many times that there are cases related to health (although you have to question what clothes could she not get into because of her breast size) that warrant surgery. Would you say that this applies to the majority?

I never said they were the majority. You were the one who repeatedly said there is no valid reason other than health problems to get implants, and I provided you one. Are you changing the goalposts?

It's also rather incoherent to say you're OK with it in those cases, but then say you still have to question it and they're still perpetuating the problem.

 

[NovemberMike]

Is there a year-by-year graph of reported domestic abuse cases in the United States? I'm just curious if there's an observable trend of domestic abuse having increased with the purported increased sexualization/objectification of women in media.

I'm skeptical of the suggestion that there's such a connection. You have cultures that have zero exposure to modern media who, from an ethnocentric view, subjugate and mistreat women as normal practice.

You can find them but it's almost all down year on year. That's pretty much the trend for any crime these days, the US is the safest it's been since the 50s.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Is there a year-by-year graph of reported domestic abuse cases in the United States? I'm just curious if there's an observable trend of domestic abuse having increased with the purported increased sexualization/objectification of women in media.

I'm skeptical of the suggestion that there's such a connection. You have cultures that have zero exposure to modern media who, from an ethnocentric view, subjugate and mistreat women as normal practice.

The cultures with zero exposure to media have been shaped by other factors such as religion, traditions, etc. Those are the "media" that have bombarded and subjugated women since the dawn of patriarchal socities. Nowadays, not only do you have religion, but you have corporations telling us how women should look, and act. You have corporations promoting the conversion of nurturing breasts (for example) into silicon play-toys.

If you want trends, look at how women's bodies looked in the 40's/50's versus now. The part of a woman's body that causes more sexual arousal and is displayed to men is now a commodity that can be bought during lunch. If there are dangers associated with this trend, or if your daughter will cry herself to sleep because her breasts are not viewed as big enough, should we do something about it? should we ignore the effect it is having on society? Is the objectification of women as means to get laid not inducive to denigrating behavior from men? Are they not harassed by how they look?

It's also rather incoherent to say you're OK with it in those cases, but then say you still have to question it and they're still perpetuating the problem.

It's not hard to see the difference in motivation between curing a health problem and wanting to look good. Are you making the argument that having natural breasts can be considered a "health issue"?

 

[Veelk]

Why degrade and objectify each other in the first place. What I know of the feminist movement (besides maybe a small subset), is that they don't want retaliation for men. They don't want dominance over men. They want to be recognized as human beings for the things they do, not for how they look. That BMW can be taken two ways: 1) the female body is just a faceless object you use to fuck, while you can dream about that car. 2) like you said, driving an object is just the same as fucking another human being. Saying that these don't have an effect on society is naive. It may not be a realistic goal to change it, but that shouldn't

We degrade and objectify each other because that's what we, as human beings, enjoy doing. I know that most feminists don't want special rights over men, but just equal treatment. Well, atleast as far as fiction goes, that doesn't mean much except that they should be able to engage in the same roles of dominance as men do. Otherwise, rather than values of women in culture, your changing the value of dominance and violence in culture as a whole, which is an entirely different thing.

It is human nature to wish to be a superior being to another in some way. Not just against women, but against blacks, jews, immigrants, foreigners in general. In reality, this is a rather repugnant aspect of humanity, as for someone to feel dominance, there has to be someone to dominate. In other words, people want there to be a face to stamp on. Who it actually is doesn't really matter. And in the realm of fiction, I think, however, such an indulgence can be forgiven. Several films that feature the worst of humanity can often be considered some of the best ever made.

So, in reply, I don't particularly disagree with you on any level. This impulse to dominate, when looked at objectively, is repulsive because it forces someone to suffer for the sake of the one dominating. And, while fiction is not real, I do agree that media that do this have an effect on society as a whole. And I agree that needs to stop in real life as much as possible.

But demanding such a radical change to take place seems impractical to me. Culture just doesn't make that extreme of a change overnight. It has to be a progressive thing. Which is why I suggested simply putting women in the roles of dominance as a start. Let them have some faces to stamp on. After you've successfully equalized the gender balance, then you can move on to removing the glorification of violence in media.

Another route would be to find a way to lessen the impact that media has on society. I'm not sure how to go about doing that, but there wouldn't be any problem with violent or sexist media if they didn't have such an effect on culture. Then they could be enjoyed for what they are: fiction.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

The cultures with zero exposure to media have been shaped by other factors such as religion, traditions, etc. Those are the "media" that have bombarded and subjugated women since the dawn of patriarchal socities. Nowadays, not only do you have religion, but you have corporations telling us how women should look, and act. You have corporations promoting the conversion of nurturing breasts (for example) into silicon play-toys.

If you want trends, look at how women's bodies looked in the 40's/50's versus now. The part of a woman's body that causes more sexual arousal and is displayed to men is now a commodity that can be bought during lunch. If there are dangers associated with this trend, or if your daughter will cry herself to sleep because her breasts are not viewed as big enough, should we do something about it? should we ignore the effect it is having on society? Is the objectification of women as means to get laid not inducive to denigrating behavior from men? Are they not harassed by how they look?



It's not hard to see the difference in motivation between curing a health problem and wanting to look good. Are you making the argument that having natural breasts can be considered a "health issue"?

Adding implants is not curing a health problem though, that's what you keep overlooking. It's purely for looks after potentially having surgery. The implant does not cure any ailment they may have had.

And you're not sorry about saying assholeish comments so please don't be patronizing and try to make it sound like you are. Again, you seem to want to have no discussion since you keep trying to curb all discussion and instead continually make condescending posts. And make up utter fucking bullshit like us talking to you about a certain point and you saying we all support domestic violence. You need to grow up.

If you want trends, look at how women's bodies looked in the 40's/50's versus now. The part of a woman's body that causes more sexual arousal and is displayed to men is now a commodity that can be bought during lunch. If there are dangers associated with this trend, or if your daughter will cry herself to sleep because her breasts are not viewed as big enough, should we do something about it? should we ignore the effect it is having on society? Is the objectification of women as means to get laid not inducive to denigrating behavior from men? Are they not harassed by how they look?

And if you want to look at trends, do you want to go back to the way women were treated in the 40s/50s? I can't see how you can use that time period as something that was better.

 

[Takuan]

You can find them but it's almost all down year on year. That's pretty much the trend for any crime these days, the US is the safest it's been since the 50s.

Yeah, that's what I figured. Kinda throws a wrench into at least one of Sanky's assertions.

No amount of recited statistics are going to change the fact that we will always celebrate beauty in our culture, the definition of which changes over time. The unfortunate side-effect of this is that it guarantees a significant number of individuals who will feel inferior for not fitting the popular ideal.

If you want trends, look at how women's bodies looked in the 40's/50's versus now. The part of a woman's body that causes more sexual arousal and is displayed to men is now a commodity that can be bought during lunch. If there are dangers associated with this trend, or if your daughter will cry herself to sleep because her breasts are not viewed as big enough, should we do something about it? should we ignore the effect it is having on society? Is the objectification of women as means to get laid not inducive to denigrating behavior from men? Are they not harassed by how they look?

I think it's more a question of whether we can do anything about it. People are free to do what they want with their bodies, for personal reasons. Who are you to tell a girl that she's wrong for wanting implants so that men will look at her more? More importantly, would she even listen?

 

[AlimNassor]

Well I'm just saying I would like to have a big discussion about it somewhere since I don't like how aggressive and violent men are towards other men. It's definitely a large problem and multifaceted. It can even get as macro as how people decide on violence as a primary answer so War is a constant. All sorts of kinds of violence are basically a product of patriarchal codes of action.

I hate how you automatically blame men and the patriarchy for everything. Humans are naturally a violent peoples, and women can be just as terrible and nasty. A matriarchy in which Women ruled would be every much as bad as a patriarchy. So, why do you blame everything on men and the patriarchy? Are women not capable of extreme acts of cruelty?

 

[Race to be King]

Is anyone actually advocating a matriarchy rather than equality?

 

[Jado]

Is anyone actually advocating a matriarchy rather than equality?

Sanky Panky has. He and his girlfriend want to burn all professional (male?) photographers at the stake for their vile depictions of women who are almost nearly actively being raped (in simulation). They will build a matriarchal throne with their charred corpses, and in place of the Dark Lord, we would have a Queen, not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the male models and large-breasted women who came before. Treacherous as a list of unrelated statistics! Stronger than the foundations of evil advertising...all shall love her condescending opinion and despair.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The post uses a direct and a much more obvious example of violating the rights of women...in this case, forcing veiling upon them (or encouraging/rewarding veiling of women, etc). This was just a starting point to give reference and juxtapose a Westernized culture and claim that women who experience a more insidious kind of sexism and violence in this culture are just as endangered. As you can see, not many people really think this is even a problem, or they twist it around to bring the focus back to men...or ignore statistics and experiences to maintain that there is no problem. It's a massive and rampant sociological issue, and if we pretend there isn't a problem, then we don't have to do the work it takes to fix it.

Ah, so it uses orientalist assumptions about Muslim cultures without any reference to Muslim feminists in order for someone to make a point?

Funny how the author makes a point about privilege without acknowledging how much privilege that kind of thing shows.

 

[CoconutTank]

Your personal history doesn't lend any more weight to your argument, not does it detract from mine. The photo/ad needs to be taken into context. The men are not literally attacking that woman nor it is a promotion of rape and violence. It's art; high fashion photography ultimately meant to be visually pleasing. Consider for moment that this could have existed in the collection of a professional photographer's portfolio before D&G purchased it for their own use. Would you go after the photographer and claim he/she is promoting rape and violence? That's a huge a stretch, especially when you're ignoring the intended audience. What about a photog or illustrator whose interests lie in capturing the nude female figure in intriguing (possibly sexual or submissive) poses? Censor or get rid of it because a kid may come across it? Because someone like you might not approve? You made an excellent point with the ad that has purposefully insulting language targeted at teens, but you're way off on this.

What the hell. Sorry but let us look at what is going on in the Dolce & Gabbana ad as is:

1. A woman is down on her back, with her back arched up and pelvis thrusted into a man that is arched over her.
2. The woman's visible arm is being held down by the man mentioned earlier, who is topless and is looking directly at her.
3. There are at least three other men in the picture who seem relaxed and are visually aware of what is going on.
4. There is no other human being in the picture.
5. The woman is apparently wearing an attractive dress and high heels.

How does this not look like a man is pressing an attractive woman down against her will while several other men are complacent of the action? Even if rape is not literally what is happening, I would find it hard to argue that it does not appear provocative, and the way the man and woman are positioned is not subordinating the woman. The fact this shows up in public as an ad for public consumption means people will think that this is okay. I mean if the content of the picture is not okay it would not be so available in public right? At least that is how I would view ads which are meant to show up as often as possible for anyone to see.

If people want to go on and make art that is controversial like this though? Fine. I will not stop them because I would rather avoid dictating what is enjoyable, and the lines are not hard and fast. All the time, people are encouraged and inspired by art. Depending on the persons' circumstances and personal drive, they may eventually do wonderful things and create art themselves. So what exactly is encouraging or inspiring about this picture? If I may further imply bluntly, are there particular situations or actions that this picture encourages or inspires? Assuming I am obvious enough, why do you think I came to the conclusions I have given? Are those conclusions not inevitable?

 

[Jado]

The ad is provocative, it implies submission, but it is also a work of photographic art (used in a commercial manner, but art nonetheless). It can be interpreted any number of ways without necessarily being "bad." Your belief that the men are complacent in a pending crime and that the woman is about to be brutalized is your one, limited interpretation. You don't understand photography (or painting, illustration, etc.) if you only think it's supposed to be "encouraging," "inspiring," or whatever the fuck other rosy, positive adjectives you attribute to so-called good and proper imagery.

We are adults, supposedly educated enough to not succumb into thinking this ad is commanding us into some abhorrent actions like literally attacking another person. Stop treating adults like dumb children just because you might be confused by a picture. Django kills bad white people! I shall now go and do the same because TV ads encouraged me...??? The answer, as you said, is not censorship. That's just dumb. If a child is misinterpreting these messages, then a parent or other similar authority figure in that kid's life needs to rectify that problem and teach right/wrong, how to interpret information and context.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Yeah, that's what I figured. Kinda throws a wrench into at least one of Sanky's assertions.

Domestic violence can be down for any number of reasons, including women being able to change laws in countries in order to be finally recognized as the main targets of domestic violence. As I said before, for example, laws regarding Domestic Violence in my country were only enacted back in 1997. Should a downward trend lead to complacency? I find this attitude very dangerous. The fact that the media has actively lead to women being depicted more and more like manufactured objects of desire, is troubling and should be addressed.

No amount of recited statistics are going to change the fact that we will always celebrate beauty in our culture, the definition of which changes over time. The unfortunate side-effect of this is that it guarantees a significant number of individuals who will feel inferior for not fitting the popular ideal.

One thing is to celebrate beauty, and the other one is portraying women as they do.

Let's show other examples how we celebrate beauty ***NSFW***:

***NSFW***

I think it's more a question of whether we can do anything about it. People are free to do what they want with their bodies, for personal reasons. Who are you to tell a girl that she's wrong for wanting implants so that men will look at her more? More importantly, would she even listen?

I would tell the girl that there is a concerted effort by the media to make her feel not good enough, or that she is an object to please men, and I would tell her that she doesn't need to mutilate her body, since natural breasts are beautiful, no matter their shape. What she decides to do after that, is up to her. The problem at this point is that you are trying to undo damage of exposure to thousands of ads a day that say otherwise.

Sanky Panky has. He and his girlfriend want to burn all professional (male?) photographers at the stake for their vile depictions of women who are almost nearly actively being raped (in simulation). They will build a matriarchal throne with their charred corpses, and in place of the Dark Lord, we would have a Queen, not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the male models and large-breasted women who came before. Treacherous as a list of unrelated statistics! Stronger than the foundations of evil advertising...all shall love her condescending opinion and despair.

Don't be misleading simply because you are getting emotionally riled up for reasons I don't understand. Not only did we specifically state over and over that feminists do not seek dominance over men, but we never accused photographers (but the companies/magazines that run the ads). The fact that you deem domestic violence statistics as "unrelated statistics" statistics in a thread about violence against women, says more about you that it does about the issue.

Ah, so it uses orientalist assumptions about Muslim cultures without any reference to Muslim feminists in order for someone to make a point?

Funny how the author makes a point about privilege without acknowledging how much privilege that kind of thing shows.

Are you disagreeing with the implications of the veil? I'm interested in your perspective on it.

The ad is provocative, it implies submission, but it is also a work of photographic art (used in a commercial manner, but art nonetheless). It can be interpreted any number of ways without necessarily being "bad."

Really curious to hear your interpretation of the ad.

 

[CoconutTank]

The ad is provocative, it implies submission, but it is also a work of photographic art (used in a commercial manner, but art nonetheless). It can be interpreted any number of ways without necessarily being "bad." Your belief that the men are complacent in a pending crime and that the woman is about to be brutalized is your one, limited interpretation. You don't understand photography (or painting, illustration, etc.) if you only think it's supposed to be "encouraging," "inspiring," or whatever the fuck other rosy, positive adjectives you attribute to so-called good and proper imagery.

Very well, indeed I do not grasp fine art too well and I am in no position to represent all minds. So for those that are most likely to be looking at this ad, are they going to be individuals that understand phtography (or painting, illustration, etc.) in the way you are referencing? Is my interpretation solely my own and impossible for it to come up for anyone else?

I find it interesting that art is not meant to encourage or inspire though. Do tell, what is art meant to do?

We are adults, supposedly educated enough to not succumb into thinking this ad is commanding us into some abhorrent actions like literally attacking another person. Stop treating adults like dumb children just because you might be confused by a picture. Django kills bad white people! I shall now go and do the same because TV ads encouraged me...??? The answer, as you said, is not censorship. That's just dumb. If a child is misinterpreting these messages, then a parent or other similar authority figure in that kid's life needs to rectify that problem and teach right/wrong, how to interpret information and context.

This is not about succumbing to the ad and behaving like a beast, this is about whether or not it is okay for this situation to be depicted as is, then have it be replicated in gross amounts to as much viewership as possible (and probably without consideration of consequences).

So I am going to take a photographic picture which depicts a black man being hanged from a tree with some people standing around and looking up at him, and I am going to have this picture hit circulation and reach as many viewers as possible. I mean this is an ad for rope, so it is not a big deal. This picture is also not commanding anyone into literally attacking another person, surely if you have those kinds of thoughts then you are just confused (because obviously it is just an ad for rope, and those other folks are doing quality control to make sure that the rope can hang a man for the amount of time advertised). Would that be art and would it be okay to distribute such an image in as many places as possible?

Curious about the bolding of the 'you' there, you would not happen to be directing that slight at me would you?

 

[Ziltoid]

I find it interesting that art is not meant to encourage or inspire though. Do tell, what is art meant to do?

Art is supposed to trigger a reaction in it's audience, be it disgust, anger, sadness, happiness, wonder or amazement. Some art can be made to encourage and/or inspire, but it is not limited to just those two goals. This is my take on it though. There is no objectivity in art.

I find this attitude very dangerous. The fact that the media has actively lead to women being depicted more and more like manufactured objects of desire, is troubling and should be addressed.

How do you think the issue be addressed? Not trying to be condescending here, genuinely curious.