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[Earthstrike]

So you're going to fix a problem by telling someone who's already doing something they know hurts people and is viewed by society as wrong by telling them that society thinks it's wrong and the it hurts people?

Already doing it? Who says they are already doing it? What about educating kids from a young age that no, in fact, means no, and isn't a yes in disguise. How naive to think we should be educating those kids who are already raping.

 

[Earthstrike]

So you're going to fix a problem by telling someone who's already doing something they know hurts people and is viewed by society as wrong by telling them that society thinks it's wrong and the it hurts people?

Already doing it? Who says they are already doing it? What about educating kids from a young age that no, in fact, means no, and isn't a yes in disguise. How naive to think we should be educating those kids who are already raping.


Edit: This is seriously troubling.

Soyou tell them society thinks it's bad, and so they just do it when they think they won't be caught or can keep the victim silent.

They're rapists because they want to rape, not because we haven't prevented them from developing into them.

You do understand that rape is in fact, actually wrong, for reasons outside of what society thinks is wrong and right. Its not just wrong because society thinks its wrong. It's wrong because it is a violation of an individual's personal autonomy.

When you say "You tell them society thinks its bad" I can't help but sick back and think "That is is actually how kirblar would attempt to educate them."

 

[captmorgan]

Every time I see a video from her, I always think, "Aren't women the ones who make magazines for women? Don't they fill them with ads?" She makes it seem like men are the ones who do all this. Maybe it's been a while since I watched on of these.

This...I always love how Cosmo was is used as a example of men degrading women, even though its owned by women, the writers are women, writing about and to women and the people buying it are women.... but its mens fault.

 

[Vermillion]

I'm just confused as to why it's not a given that rape is bad.

 

[Devolution]

I'm just confused as to why it's not a given that rape is bad.

Because women have been commodities for a very long time?

 

[User 100115]

Some people don't seem to understand that all of America isn't as enlightened as they think it is. Where I grew up 'homemaking' classes in high school were still mandatory for girls, while boys took Ag. I married young, didn't further my education, ect. To break free of being home bound, and yes, I absolutely am, I would need to get a job. While my husband was able to start 12 years ago with no experience as a wind turbine tech, which is good money, and work his way a bit higher, no such jobs are available to me. I would be stuck with minimum wage unless I got a degree behind me, and that wouldn't even pay for daycare in this day and age. Never mind gas and groceries. Going to school is out, as that also costs money I don't have. These things do indeed hold women back. Education in the more conservative areas of our nation do try and keep young girls shoved into the role wife, and don't let them see any other option until its too late.

What can we do about it? I have no idea. My own situation isn't unique, I know. I know that men struggle to get jobs as well.

 

[Vermillion]

Because women have been commodities for a very long time?

I guess. I mean, I'm just thinking - if you consider crimes that are bad because they are bad, not because of the law, you have murder, stealing and rape as the big three.

Just can't relate to people not knowing what rape is. My roommate is a member of SAARP, and he had to do a presentation to one of our school's sports teams, and they had very stupid answers as to when you can have sex with a woman.

I find it difficult to understand how someone decides to rape in the first place. I mean, blame has been shifted to what they look like/what they're wearing, but even then, is it so hard to realize that consent is necessary? I dunno, I'm just expressing confusion - not arguing at the moment.

 

[Sadsic]

Do you get told this by the same people who call themselves feminists or discuss things like rape culture?

well its usually from other men or older people, probably the same people who are the problem in rape culture

 

[kirblar]

You do understand that rape is in fact, actually wrong, for reasons outside of what society thinks is wrong and right. Its not just wrong because society thinks its wrong. It's wrong because it is a violation of an individual's personal autonomy.

When you say "You tell them society thinks its bad" I can't help but sick back and think "That is is actually how kirblar would attempt to educate them."

Do you understand the difference between positive and normative statements?

"Right and Wrong" falls squarely into normative.

 

[captmorgan]

Some people don't seem to understand that all of America isn't as enlightened as they think it is. Where I grew up 'homemaking' classes in high school were still mandatory for girls, while boys took Ag. I was pushed into marriage way too young, didn't further my education, ect. To break free of being home bound, and yes, I absolutely am, I would need to get a job. While my husband was able to start 12 years ago with no experience as a wind turbine tech, which is good money, and work his way a bit higher, no such jobs are available to me. I would be stuck with minimum wage unless I got a degree behind me, and that wouldn't even pay for daycare in this day and age. Never mind gas and groceries. Going to school is out, as that also costs money I don't have. These things do indeed hold women back. Education in the more conservative areas of our nation do try and keep young girls shoved into the role wife, and don't let them see any other option until its too late.

What can we do about it? I have no idea. My own situation isn't unique, I know. I know that men struggle to get jobs as well.

Go pick up a trade then, there is literally thousands of dollars in grants for women in trades, (there are no such programs for men to become nurses) no student debts, your payed to go to school and school is covered by the employer er and a job that pays much higher than min wage.

 

[MuddyDonut]

"You know, I've always considered women to be people."
-George R. R. Martin

 

[User 100115]

Go pick up a trade then, there is literally thousands of dollars in grants for women in trades, (there are no such programs for men to become nurses) no student debts, your payed to go to school and school is covered by the employer er and a job that pays much higher than min wage.

I already tried that; the money they offered wasn't enough to cover the classes, and we cant pay for the difference. Much less, again, child care while I do take class. See the problem here?

 

[captmorgan]

I guess. I mean, I'm just thinking - if you consider crimes that are bad because they are bad, not because of the law, you have murder, stealing and rape as the big three.

Just can't relate to people not knowing what rape is. My roommate is a member of SAARP, and he had to do a presentation to one of our school's sports teams, and they had very stupid answers as to when you can have sex with a woman.

I find it difficult to understand how someone decides to rape in the first place. I mean, blame has been shifted to what they look like/what they're wearing, but even then, is it so hard to realize that consent is necessary? I dunno, I'm just expressing confusion - not arguing at the moment.

The simplest reason I can think of why consent is sometimes a difficult concept is.. for women the default setting for consent is no unless they say yes.

With men the default setting is yes unless they say no.

Its a small yet a very meaningful distinction.

 

[Vermillion]

The simplest reason I can think of why consent is sometimes a difficult concept is.. for women the default setting for consent is no unless they say yes.

With men the default setting is yes unless they say no.

Its a small yet a very meaningful distinction.

Projection, then?

 

[Jado]

One thing that I think is an issue is how men don't try to "court" women anymore. It's all a "game". You know how guys all talk about "Bringing their A game" "getting into the dating game" and such. Men should see a possible relationship with a woman as something to take serious, yet the media and other men constantly perpetuate the idea that "hitting and quitting it" is so awesome and that a man should just use her, and I say that as a man. We really need to stop this idea that being a "player" is something to strive to be.

Yeah, if only more men were disingenuous "nice guys" rather than being honest about simply wanting ordinary casual sex...

Many women, like men, have accepted that non-serious casual relationships are okay. As long as no one is being misled, who cares about forced chivalry and the "good old days?"

 

[captmorgan]

I already tried that; the money they offered wasn't enough to cover the classes, and my husband won't/can't pay for the difference. Much less, again, child care while I do take class. See the problem here?

Ummm... may I ask what trade you went for and what grant? Because "women in trades" offers 5 to 10 thousand as well you don`t pay for classes, you get an apprenticeship then indentured to a company and they pay for your schooling.

As well alot of classes are offered correspondence, you could take your millwright ticket at home.

Take power Eng fairly easy and in massive demand.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

This...I always love how Cosmo was is used as a example of men degrading women, even though its owned by women, the writers are women, writing about and to women and the people buying it are women.... but its mens fault.

It's owned by the Hearst Corporation, a mass-media conglomerate which is responsible for ensuring that all its publications portray messages that are beneficial to its overall well-being. You think the individual writers are free to write whatever they choose? Of course not, they're given specific barriers of "acceptability" that they have to stay within or risk repercussions.

And due to gender/racial inequality, you can bet that a majority of the shareholders deciding what is and what isn't acceptable are white males.

 

[Uchip]

Violence against husbands does exist, too, but men are often too ashamed to talk about it.

there is certainly a lot of emotional blackmail that happens
not sure if that qualifies as violence

 

[User 100115]

Ummm... may I ask what trade you went for and what grant? Because "women in trades" offers 5 to 10 thousand as well you don`t pay for classes, you get an apprenticeship then indentured to a company and they pay for your schooling.

As well alot of classes are offered correspondence, you could take your millwright ticket at home.

Take power Eng fairly easy and in massive demand.

Nursing, actually, and because my husband makes around 49k, they consider him able to pay for some of it, therefore, I am screwed

 

[Jburton]

there is certainly a lot of emotional blackmail that happens
not sure if that qualifies as violence

Pardon?

You dispute that there are male sufferers of domestic violence?

 

[captmorgan]

Projection, then?

Honestly probably, A lot of guys probably think well I would love it if a girl climbed into my bed while I slept... so she`ll probably want it as well.


I also believe it extends into the work place with sexual advances, most men make rude comments, inappropriate touching and what not because they really want it to happen to them. When I lost a 100 pounds and women starting coming up to my and rubbing my shoulders and making inappropriate comments at work it never crossed my mind to lodge a complaint with HR.

 

[Wazzim]

That double standard has always pissed me off.

I have met many women who hit men knowing they won't get hit back because they are women.


Obviously this is not all women and not meant as a generalisation .

I always laugh at guys that don't want to hit back women. Who the fuck cares what gender the attacker is.

 

[Vermillion]

there is certainly a lot of emotional blackmail that happens
not sure if that qualifies as violence

Actual violence. Falls under the same umbrella, though - women aren't considered to be a threat.

 

[captmorgan]

Nursing, actually, and because my husband makes around 49k, they consider him able to pay for some of it, therefore, I am screwed

Nursing not a trade...Welding, machining, instrumentation, pipe fitter, construction....

 

[Devolution]

Pardon?

You dispute that there are male sufferers of domestic violence?

I have an idea, why not make a thread about it instead of shifting the focus? Also men are victims of a lot of violence but it's mostly perpetrated by other men.

 

[User 100115]

Nursing not a trade...Welding, machining, instrumentation, pipe fitter, construction....

That could be an option, but even if I were to get some sort of certification in one of those fields, interviewing for a job in them would be a dance of 'let's hope this guy hires women'.

 

[Vermillion]

Honestly probably, A lot of guys probably think well I would love it if a girl climbed into my bed while I slept... so she`ll probably want it as well.


I also believe it extends into the work place with sexual advances, most men make rude comments, inappropriate touching and what not because they really want it to happen to them. When I lost a 100 pounds and women starting coming up to my and rubbing my shoulders and making inappropriate comments at work it never crossed my mind to lodge a complaint with HR.

Heh, girl did that to me freshmen year of HS. It made me uncomfortable because I didn't trust her motives, but things like that both earlier and later in my life... no such thought myself. But I never thought that a woman would think the same way, nor that I could do such things without asking.

And that's another topic worth looking into - what is the divide, or is there even a divide? I have been of the belief that it's because women have more to fear (particularly in the case of rape) that men don't. The study in another thread talking about how 50% of college-aged males agreed to have sex with an attractive female when propositioned in comparison to no women accepting the offer of an attractive male.

Does everyone agree/disagree... what?

 

[Jburton]

I have an idea, why not make a thread about it instead of shifting the focus? Also men are victims of a lot of violence but it's mostly perpetrated by other men.

Sorry I was not purposely trying to derail the thread, was responding to some nonsense.

 

[captmorgan]

That could be an option, but even if I were to get some sort of certification in one of those fields, interviewing for a job in them would be a dance of 'let's hope this guy hires women'.

I don`t mean to be offensive but its starting to sound like your making excuses.

Right now there is a large push to hire women, Here in Alberta we`re trying to hire 100K workers form Florida to fill the shortage.


Look up Power Eng. (its more of a trade than actually eng. ) its straight forward you can do the books at home and shell will hire you almost instantly..if your interested.

 

[Devolution]

Sorry I was not purposely trying to derail the thread, was responding to some nonsense.

Well I'm just saying I would like to have a big discussion about it somewhere since I don't like how aggressive and violent men are towards other men. It's definitely a large problem and multifaceted. It can even get as macro as how people decide on violence as a primary answer so War is a constant. All sorts of kinds of violence are basically a product of patriarchal codes of action.

 

[kirblar]

Well I'm just saying I would like to have a big discussion about it somewhere since I don't like how aggressive and violent men are towards other men. It's definitely a large problem and multifaceted. It can even get as macro as how people decide on violence as a primary answer so War is a constant. All sorts of kinds of violence are basically a product of patriarchal codes of action.

I can't figure out if this is completely serious or self-parody.

 

[Devolution]

I can't figure out if this is completely serious or self-parody.

You could start by telling me the part you had a problem with instead of some pithy statement.

 

[kirblar]

You could start by telling me the part you had a problem with instead of some pithy statement.

No, it wasn't a part I had a problem with, it was that I couldn't tell if it was sarcastic or not.

The basic statement that "violence originates mostly in men" is completely accurate.

 

[Devolution]

No, it wasn't a part I had a problem with, it was that I couldn't tell if it was sarcastic or not.

Why would it be? I'm not against discussion or examination of men's issues, I just don't like how there is a sudden surge of interest in a thread about women's issues.

The basic statement that "violence originates mostly in men" is completely accurate.

If you think partriachy and men are interchangeable then we're not going to get anywhere.

 

[User 100115]

I don`t mean to be offensive but its starting to sound like your making excuses.

Right now there is a large push to hire women, Here in Alberta we`re trying to hire 100K workers form Florida to fill the shortage.


Look up Power Eng. (its more of a trade than actually eng. ) its straight forward you can do the books at home and shell will hire you almost instantly..if your interested.

It may sound like that, but it is a bit worrisome trying to go into a trade that is male dominated. Would I be hired in my area? Would employers work with me if I were harassed? Ect. I will look into it, even though I had my heart set on nursing. Thank you for the advice.

 

[StarWolf]

Yeah, if only more men were disingenuous "nice guys" rather than being honest about simply wanting ordinary casual sex...

Many women, like men, have accepted that non-serious casual relationships are okay. As long as no one is being misled, who cares about forced chivalry and the "good old days?"

It's not about a man being a "nice guy", it's about men being respectful and treating a woman as she should be. If they want casual sex that's fine, but the way the media and other men talk, it constantly shows men to just act like a horn dog.

 

[kirblar]

If you think partriachy and men are interchangeable then we're not going to get anywhere.

Huh? Wasn't interchanging the two terms. Men are by far the more violent of the two sexes. I don't believe this to be in any way a point of debate. They commit the majority of violent crimes, and its one of those areas where trying to equate the two genders is laughable. But violence comes because people want to influence others' behavior. Why do we go to war? Because we have a disagreement and want the other to submit to our opinion. Implied force lies behind our legal codse- i.e. "if you do this and are caught, bad things will happen to you." And you back those things up with a big stick.

 

[pigeon]

I don`t mean to be offensive but its starting to sound like your making excuses.

It's really amazing how willing you are to lecture somebody and assume they're ignorant or lazy because they don't immediately thank you for recommending something to them they already tried.

 

[Jado]

It's really amazing how willing you are to lecture somebody and assume they're ignorant or lazy because they don't immediately thank you for recommending something to them they already tried.

Miscommunication. Nursing isn't a trade, so it actually isn't something she's tried. And there is massive demand in many well-paying trades. Gotten so bad that companies are bringing in skilled immigrants to meet demand that uninterested (and sometimes lazy) young men and women in the US are unwilling to fill.

 

[LuCkymoON]

I wanted to take the politics out of it in order to prevent the usual woman vs men rights discussion. While it does have a place in this thread, I wish the focus can be on how violence against women is subtly/blatantly promoted or tolerated in the world.



What I take from it is that women are not to blame, but they participate in the objectification by going for the fake breasts, taking sexual pictures of themselves, seeking attention through social media, perpetrating the "bimbo" stereotype, etc. It's not that they are at fault, but they themselves are not aware of the dangers of what they are doing.

So would you rather women dress in burkas?

 

[User 100115]

Miscommunication. Nursing isn't a trade, so it actually isn't something she's tried. And there is massive demand in many well-paying trades. Gotten so bad that companies are bringing in skilled immigrants to meet demand that uninterested (and sometimes lazy) young men and women in the US are unwilling to fill.

Considering I have done jobs that most people wouldn't in the past, including picking fields, I have looked into it. In my area, these things don't pay nearly enough to support a family on.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

It's owned by the Hearst Corporation, a mass-media conglomerate which is responsible for ensuring that all its publications portray messages that are beneficial to its overall well-being. You think the individual writers are free to write whatever they choose? Of course not, they're given specific barriers of "acceptability" that they have to stay within or risk repercussions.

And due to gender/racial inequality, you can bet that a majority of the shareholders deciding what is and what isn't acceptable are white males.

I doubt some 60 or 70 year old man is going, "You know what our kickers should be: Epic Sex, Bikini Season, Shopping Sprees..."It's still women writing the articles and placing the ads. You can't just go around placing blame on the men and then say, " I was just doing my job."

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I doubt some 60 or 70 year old man is going, "You know what our kickers should be: Epic Sex, Bikini Season, Shopping Sprees..."It's still women writing the articles and placing the ads. You can't just go around placing blame on the men and then say, " I was just doing my job."

Yes, I realize that, but it's probably 60 and 70 year old-man who are the shareholders and would freak if Cosmo ever attempted to publish a serious examination of women's issues that challenged the patriarchy and their own self-interest.

 

[Devolution]

I doubt some 60 or 70 year old man is going, "You know what our kickers should be: Epic Sex, Bikini Season, Shopping Sprees..."It's still women writing the articles and placing the ads. You can't just go around placing blame on the men and then say, " I was just doing my job."

There's a definite interest in keeping women insecure and buying shit they don't need. We're talking billion dollar industries.

 

[iamblades]

Yes, I realize that, but it's probably 60 and 70 year old-man who are the shareholders and would freak if Cosmo ever attempted to publish a serious examination of women's issues that challenged the patriarchy and their own self-interest.

Only if it didn't make them as much money, I doubt any rich male investor is reading Cosmo to see if the content meets his standards. He's looking at the balance sheet, and that alone.

The whole argument about the fashion and beauty industries being a patriarchal institution men use to keep women down has always been one of the least persuasive feminist arguments to me though. Straight men don't give a shit about that kind of stuff, that standard is something women impose on themselves.

Similar thing with women's sports. Women don't watch sports, so women's sports aren't as successful.

These are things that women have largely decided for themselves as consumers, they are not examples of the media forcing things down women's throats, if women weren't buying, the media would quickly start selling something else.

 

[faceless007]

The whole argument about the fashion and beauty industries being a patriarchal institution men use to keep women down has always been one of the least persuasive feminist arguments to me though. Straight men don't give a shit about that kind of stuff,

This is trivially disprovable by looking at any thread on GAF in which a picture of a woman is posted, especially if without makeup, and especially if she isn't absolutely flawless according to the strictest Hollywood standards.

 

[Vermillion]

There's a definite interest in keeping women insecure and buying shit they don't need. We're talking billion dollar industries.

That's never going to go away, though. Businesses like preying on people to make sure they get what they don't need. Certainly this is exacerbated by patriarchy, but certainly not exclusive to it, and certainly not strongest in it.

 

[Devolution]

That's never going to go away, though. Businesses like preying on people to make sure they get what they don't need. Certainly this is exacerbated by patriarchy, but certainly not exclusive to it, and certainly not strongest in it.

You don't know what's going to go away and what's not, especially if it turns out to be a horrible health hazard.

 

[Vermillion]

You don't know what's going to go away and what's not, especially if it turns out to be a horrible health hazard.

That's true, and I didn't mean to be so specific. I mean if the current crop of things that make women feel inadequate go away, new things will certainly pop up.

 

[Devolution]

That's true, and I didn't mean to be so specific. I mean if the current crop of things that make women feel inadequate go away, new things will certainly pop up.

Oh definitely trends will change, some companies will embrace it and others will be slow to change. But there are definitely things won't don't wear (or wear nearly as much) or do today.