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[Watch Da Birdie]

you're implying that if we had a matriarchal society, and if instead women rose to power, that they're wouldn't be violence, or significantly less so.

i don't think that's the case. the same problems that people resort to violence for would still exist. female dominated species in the animal kingdom such as bonobos are extremely violent.

I never said we needed a switch to a matriarchal society, which would be women in power if you're being literal, I said we need a society where power shouldn't be the primary factor in deciding who makes the rules.

That's the biggest hurdle facing any discussion of feminism, guys always jump to the conclusion that there will be a complete switch to the opposite "matriarchal society". Which leads to a large question for them to consider...if there's not an issue with patriarchy, why are they so afraid of a matriarchy?

 

[KingFire]

Natural selection made us males more aggressive and sexual. We tend to want to fuck as many women as possible. Since women tend to be more picky, some of us are left behind, and then those proceed to have forceful sex.

It is in our genes, but the good news is that we can repress our sexual desires since most of us can use their brains. Sadly some of us can't.

 

[Bloodbeard]

I dont think you realize that this basically is victim blaming. Except that you're also basically calling them stupid on top of that, as if they aren't capable of understanding this issue like men can or something.

Devils Advocate: Is a woman really coerced into breast augmentation or sexting or any particular mode of acting when not forced through physical violence or intimidation, or in the absence of some explicit, or reasonably explicit, verbal/non-physical suggestion/criticism (ie. "We're considering promoting you to head spokesperson, but you just don't quite have that "it" factor", where 'it' seeming to suggest bigger breasts, more revealing clothing, better make-up, etc.etc.)? For all those other instances where it comes down to some ambiguous or general sense of pressure from an equally ambiguous, catch-all source like "the culture", is it still victim blaming to criticize the idea that these choices are not a case of violence against woman, but are rather the burden of making choices as a free and responsible individual? If she is capable of understanding the situation and the degradation it does to her, and yet still does it, at what point is it no longer "blaming the victim" and becomes a failure to respect and honor ones self-ownership and existential choice?

Institutional patriarchy is an absolute reality, and it does hurt woman in a lot of tangible ways (and even men in more philosophical ways). So these kind of things need serious attention, and it is that need for serious attention that I'm trying to bring up that the language we use to work through these problems needs to be a lot more precise and well-defined if we are to get anywhere with it and not just continually throw mud.

I said we need a society where power shouldn't be the primary factor in deciding who makes the rules.

I cannot wrap my head around what this could mean or look like. The very nature of power is the ability to make rules and bend things to your will. Can you explain it a bit more?

 

[captmorgan]

Regarding tattoos/piercings: what are the tattoos about? are they designed to perpetuate the idea that you need to change your body to attract the opposite sex? are they just artistic expressions of who you are?

I'm not arguing that we should police women's bodies, and the original comment by my gf was simply to raise awareness of the physical alteration women are subjecting themselves to, because of the images portrayed by the media. Them being aware of the sexism portrayed by the media, and not using it as a measuring stick for the womanhood, would be a way to reject this sexism.

I cant speak for women but my tattoos are both, they are an artistic expression and make panties drop. I can only assume for women that its the same thing.

While we`re on this topic one thing Ive noticed is most things women do (make-up, hair, clothes, ect) have nothing to do with trying to impress men its to impress show off to other women. As well most things that men do is also to impress/show off to women.

Would it not be fair to suggest that media and in turn society is all about impressing women?

 

[george_us]

Medical/health reasons are one thing, altering your body to conform to the message protrayed by the media is the issue. You can't blame one gender, for the actions of the other gender. It is BECAUSE of a lack of awareness of this systematic sexism, that young girls resort to extreme measures. Getting implants for cosmetic purposes simply perpetuates the trend.

I disagree that media is blame for the importance placed on women's appearance. Both men and women have judged women based solely on their appearance since the dawn of time and will continue to do so unless human nature is changed.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Regarding tattoos/piercings: what are the tattoos about? are they designed to perpetuate the idea that you need to change your body to attract the opposite sex? are they just artistic expressions of who you are?

It's nobody's business but theirs.

 

[captmorgan]

I never said we needed a switch to a matriarchal society, which would be women in power if you're being literal, I said we need a society where power shouldn't be the primary factor in deciding who makes the rules.

Im sorry but this doesn't make any sense power will always make the rules, it has to. The very definition of rules is to stop someone from doing something, and the only way you can do that is to be more powerful than that person.

 

[Sanky Panky]

I only punch the women I love.

Yes what a funny comment. This is a nice example of an obvious dismissive reaction. Thank you for being reliable.

 

[meltingparappa]

I never said we needed a switch to a matriarchal society, which would be women in power if you're being literal, I said we need a society where power shouldn't be the primary factor in deciding who makes the rules.

As a very oblique non-sequitor to your point, I think Margaret Thatcher definitively proved that gender isn't the sole factor in someone using their power to do awful things.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Why is this specifically about breast enhancement? Isn't every kind of cosmetic surgery (aside from reconstructive ones) an expression of the exaggerated notions of beauty in our society?

Also do I think that the problem lies a little deeper than that women want just to be attractive for men. Many women get fake breasts because it boosts their self esteem, and not just around men, but also around women.

I lived in Miami for 10 years, and it is astounding how many breast implants women get. It has become a thing to get your daughter breast implants for her Sweet 16 birthday. While it is just one example, the trend in breast implants is a seruous one. Unlike tattoos, the mantra of "big tits, tiny waist, long legs" is a tool used in mainstream media to show the flawless textbook model.

Boosting your self-esteem because now you get more attention from men, or because now you are viewed as more attractive among your female friends... AGAIN, this is all reinforcing the media protrayal of what a woman should look like. Making the tits to be objects of male desire.

While we`re on this topic one thing Ive noticed is most things women do (make-up, hair, clothes, ect) have nothing to do with trying to impress men its to impress show off to other women. As well most things that men do is also to impress/show off to women.

Would it not be fair to suggest that media and in turn society is all about impressing women?

Watch that documentary posted in the OP. You will see that from an early age, women are made to compare themselves with others, it is "cool" for young teens to talk bad about themselves to their friends, and women are told they are not good enough unless they buy X or do X. If they are measured by how much they can attract a man, of course they will compete with each other.

I disagree that media is blame for the importance placed on women's appearance. Both men and women have judged women based solely on their appearance since the dawn of time and will continue to do so unless human nature is changed.

The media is blamed for objectifying women versus how they protray men. Watch that link in the OP, for a start.

 

[BobbyRobby]

I never said we needed a switch to a matriarchal society, which would be women in power if you're being literal, I said we need a society where power shouldn't be the primary factor in deciding who makes the rules.

That's the biggest hurdle facing any discussion of feminism, guys always jump to the conclusion that there will be a complete switch to the opposite "matriarchal society". Which leads to a large question for them to consider...if there's not an issue with patriarchy, why are they so afraid of a matriarchy?

i completely agree that we should have a society where might doesn't make right.

i think the problem lies with labeling your movement as 'feminism', and fighting mostly for issues that affect women. its completely counterproductive.

there's a reason that dr. king's philosophy gained more traction than that of malcolm x. he made civil rights a human rights issue rather than simply a black rights issue.

 

[way more]

Why do they have a women's shelter but not a man's shelter? It's worse than the African American Community Center.

 

[kirblar]

I disagree that media is blame for the importance placed on women's appearance. Both men and women have judged women based solely on their appearance since the dawn of time and will continue to do so unless human nature is changed.

Everyone judges everyone (male or female) based on appearance. There are very few short male politicians, for example.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Im sorry but this doesn't make any sense power will always make the rules, it has to. The very definition of rules is to stop someone from doing something, and the only way you can do that is to be more powerful than that person.

You only think that because you've learned all your life that might makes right.

It doesn't have to be that way...you can, you know, talk through problems. Find peaceful solutions. Yes, it's easier to use power to get what you want, but not the only answer.

I cannot wrap my head around what this could mean or look like. The very nature of power is the ability to make rules and bend things to your will. Can you explain it a bit more?

Social equality, basically. Everyone having an equal voice regardless of race/gender/social status.

i completely agree that we should have a society where might doesn't make right.

i think the problem lies with labeling your movement as 'feminism', and fighting mostly for issues that affect women. its completely counterproductive.

there's a reason that dr. king's philosophy gained more traction than that of malcolm x. he made civil rights a human rights issue rather than simply a black rights issue.

The point I've been trying to make is that feminism ISN'T about helping out only women, the patriarchy they fight against negatively effects men as well.

Take Sadsic for instance, the issues he's facing, rape being normalized and men lacking any way to receive help due to men being expected to "tough it out" stems from patriarchy.

 

[Sanky Panky]

All of us are victims as a result of this, but males are just not victimized the females are. To ignore that would be to dismiss this issue...AGAIN.

There are no male shelters because there isnt a need for them. Domestic abuse effects women in a sickeningly disproportionate manner than men. While no one deserves to suffer violence, this epidemic centers on women, not men. By fighting that and insisting that it somehow victimizes men is doing what the world has done for years. You are finding a way to make the problem "not a real problem". Life tells us otherwise

 

[Satch]

i completely agree that we should have a society where might doesn't make right.

i think the problem lies with labeling your movement as 'feminism', and fighting mostly for issues that affect women. its completely counterproductive.

there's a reason that dr. king's philosophy gained more traction than that of malcolm x. he made civil rights a human rights issue rather than simply a black rights issue.

It's called feminism because it is antithetical to an oppressive patriarchy.

Feminism is more specific than egalitarianism, and womanism is more specific than feminism.


where are pigeon and mumei because i have somewhere to be but i need the thread to stay alive until i return

 

[jonremedy]

I've only been violent with women who were asking for it.









Literally.

Sure, but what does that have to do with the thread in general?

 

[BobbyRobby]

It's called feminism because it is antithetical to an oppressive patriarchy.

Feminism is more specific than egalitarianism, and womanism is more specific than feminism.


where are pigeon and mumei because i have somewhere to be but i need the thread to stay alive until i return

you can justify the name in your head, or your circle of like-minded people by blaming the patriarchy. i just don't think it is valid or productive.

there's a reason we passed the 'civil' rights act in 1964 and not the 'black' rights act.

catering to a specific group is troublesome, because culture is malleable. if feminists gain prominence, then we'd have to create a masculinist movement when that occurs using your logic.

 

[Race to be King]

Natural selection made us males more aggressive and sexual. We tend to want to fuck as many women as possible. Since women tend to be more picky, some of us are left behind, and then those proceed to have forceful sex.

It is in our genes, but the good news is that we can repress our sexual desires since most of us can use their brains. Sadly some of us can't.

Do you have any evidence to back this up whatsoever? Women are picky, so the men who get turned down resort to rape - did you even think about what you just wrote?

Rape isn't about fulfilling some primal need to reproduce, it's about having power and control over a person. Please do some reading before making statements like these.

 

[Sanky Panky]

That would be true if women gained an institutionalized power that every human in the system adhered to and if they in turn used that power to dehumanize men and marginalize them as "less than" women. If men suffered physical and emotional harm at the level women do today then yes...you would be correct and men would need a movement to gain back power and reverse or prevent the damage.

However that's not the case and the feminist movement is not (with, of course, some exceptions to the rule) trying to achieve a more powerful role to dominate men as a gender. Instead, the entire thing is about wronging the rights and providing respect so that women can break even on the same level as men...not a higher level.

 

[Bloodbeard]

If men suffered physical and emotional harm at the level women do today

seriously?

 

[Sanky Panky]

Again, this problem does harm to every single one of us without a doubt. But we cannot ignore the reality that men determine the societal norms and have more power and privilege than women because of this intricate system of patriarchy we've had in place for a long time.
I think it would be ignorant to assume that the civil rights act did not center on the discrimination and resulting activism of many kinds of people on the behalf of African Americans. That's why we have the "equal pay act". It's an act stemming from and in support of all people, but we would be a little silly to pretend we didn't know it centered on women and women's rights at the root. Of course we know all of these things effect every citizen, that's why its not called the equal pay act for women.

 

[Sanky Panky]

Dead serious. Watch the video

 

[Satch]

you can justify the name in your head, or your circle of like-minded people by blaming the patriarchy. i just don't think it is valid or productive.

there's a reason we passed the 'civil' rights act in 1964 and not the 'black' rights act.

catering to a specific group is troublesome, because culture is malleable. if feminists gain prominence, then we'd have to create a masculinist movement when that occurs using your logic.

But a patriarchal society is to blame for these attitudes.

A patriarchal society is why it's bad for men to cry (because showing your emotions is for women). It's to blame when you get commercials full of men being uneducated chuckleheads that don't know how to cook or clean or bathe themselves (because those are all things that only women would know how to do - they make men's sandwiches and clean men's houses and wash men's laundry). It's to blame when men are taught to escalate things to physical violence (because men are strong and need to assert themselves as the dominant male - a woman would know nothing of the sort, because they're dainty and submissive and weak). It's to blame when men are conditioned to bottle up their emotions (because only women would be so fragile as to express themselves so candidly - suck it up, faggot!!! hyuk hyuk hyuk).

To act otherwise is to act as a woman, and no man should ever lower himself to that.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Do you have any evidence to back this up whatsoever? Women are picky, so the men who get turned down resort to rape - did you even think about what you just wrote?

Rape isn't about fulfilling some primal need to reproduce, it's about having power and control over a person. Please do some reading before making statements like these.

Yeah.

A lot of rape is committed by a person that the victim knows as well, such as husbands, boyfriends, male friends, etc.

Assuming that all rapists are simply frustrated virgins is a dangerous notion to have, because it ignores the serious issue of "rape culture"...that is, that society often makes excuses when rape occurs or overlooks it due to the rapist "knowing" the victim, or being involved with them romantically, and thus assumes that it was consensual.

To eliminate rape, you need to realize that due to the culture of violence and power we've created you can't simply look at someone and decide if they're a rapist or not (although a fedora is usually a good tip-off), it's become ingrained in our society to the point that it's insidiously difficult to pinpoint until it actually occurs. The best course of action isn't to focus on how women should avoid rape, but to instead focus on clearly teaching young men what is and what isn't acceptable behavior towards women, and to dispel notions that power is the answer to achieving happiness so that women don't have to worry about rape in the first place.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

It is interesting that this idea behind male and female sexuality also serves to keep men in a position of power; they use education, income, and societal favor to their advantage to pursue their goals and live their lives. Women are bound to their homes and their own bodies, expected to find fulfillment in repetitive mindless domestic tasks that limit them to mother.

I find this grotesquely offensive, it is utterly perverse. Placing motherhood in the same bracket as a mindless chore. Who wrote this crap?

 

[StarWolf]

Just a few thoughts:

1. While I understand how bad all the advertisements on TV, magazines etc. can be for womens self-esteem and even with men giving them unrealistic ideas of women, as long as we live in a capitalistic free society what is the solution? Just outright ban anyone from displaying attractive women?

2. Why is there little to no talk of famous women like lady gaga, rihanna, britney spears etc. and the way they are negatively effecting young women? Being famous they are role models for lots of girls and influence behavior but there are tons of famous women that aren't giving women any better role model or certainly helping either.

 

[Mumei]

I find this grotesquely offensive, it is utterly perverse. Placing motherhood in the same bracket as a mindless chore. Who wrote this crap?

I think you misunderstood the argument being presented in that paragraph, but suffice to say that the point was not "Motherhood is a chore", but that attitudes about male and female sexuality can have the effect of limiting the roles that women take on (though I think that has changed a lot).

But that said, I think that if you think that motherhood does not consist of a great deal of mindless chores that you probably have an overly romanticized notion of motherhood.

 

[StarWolf]

I find this grotesquely offensive, it is utterly perverse. Placing motherhood in the same bracket as a mindless chore. Who wrote this crap?

Exactly, I've known a few stay at home moms that have been criticized and made fun of for it. Whether a woman wants to be a CEO or SAHM it's her choice and she shouldn't be made to feel bad for either. And this part cracks me up "Women are bound to their homes and their own bodies, expected to find fulfillment in repetitive mindless domestic tasks that limit them to mother."

Are we talking about America or Saudi Arabia? I don't know any woman that is "bound to their homes" LOL.

 

[StarWolf]

I think you misunderstood the argument being presented in that paragraph, but suffice to say that the point was not "Motherhood is a chore", but that attitudes about male and female sexuality can have the effect of limiting the roles that women take on (though I think that has changed a lot).

But that said, I think that if you think that motherhood does not consist of a great deal of mindless chores that you probably have an overly romanticized notion of motherhood.

Couldn't that be also said for lots of jobs?

 

[tjohn86]

What is your old country? It feels like this was written by someone who has only read about American culture.

 

[Sanky Panky]

think you misunderstood the argument being presented in that paragraph, but suffice to say that the point was not "Motherhood is a chore", but that attitudes about male and female sexuality can have the effect of limiting the roles that women take on (though I think that has changed a lot).

But that said, I think that if you think that motherhood does not consist of a great deal of mindless chores that you probably have an overly romanticized notion of motherhood.

Well said Mumei.

Couldn't that be also said for lots of jobs?

I think you have a choice as to what job you take. In many societies, women don't have this choice. Judging from statistics and personal experience the home is still considered (generally speaking!!!) the woman's domain. That first quote about women being confined to wife, mother, housekeeper, or all three illustrates the lack of choice provided in severely restrictive cultures...like Iran. Saudi Arabia is also a good example...the reference was to women who are actually under threat of imprisonment, physical punishment, and shunning by the community if they are in public unaccompanied by a man...etc...They are in fact confined to their homes. There is no promotion or diversity in these jobs, hence the mindless domestic tasks

What is your old country? It feels like this was written by someone who has only read about American culture.

Well I am from the Dominican Republic (strong third world country patriarchal culture), and my gf did her Master's in African Literature. She is white, born in the US, so I think we have plenty of cultures covered.

 

[kirblar]

Yeah.

A lot of rape is committed by a person that the victim knows as well, such as husbands, boyfriends, male friends, etc.

Assuming that all rapists are simply frustrated virgins is a dangerous notion to have, because it ignores the serious issue of "rape culture"...that is, that society often makes excuses when rape occurs or overlooks it due to the rapist "knowing" the victim, or being involved with them romantically, and thus assumes that it was consensual.

To eliminate rape, you need to realize that due to the culture of violence and power we've created you can't simply look at someone and decide if they're a rapist or not (although a fedora is usually a good tip-off), it's become ingrained in our society to the point that it's insidiously difficult to pinpoint until it actually occurs. The best course of action isn't to focus on how women should avoid rape, but to instead focus on clearly teaching young men what is and what isn't acceptable behavior towards women, and to dispel notions that power is the answer to achieving happiness so that women don't have to worry about rape in the first place.

His argument was coming from a evolutionary perspective, not a "this is why men do it" perspective. You're ascribing way too much into a generic explanation of why this behavior might have developed over the course of human development. (For a crazy example of this type of stuff, go look up Duck mating.)

But I have to say, every time I read or hear the bolded part coming out of someone's mouth, I just stare in stunned silence.

 

[pigeon]

Exactly, I've known a few stay at home moms that have been criticized and made fun of for it. Whether a woman wants to be a CEO or SAHM it's her choice and she shouldn't be made to feel bad for either. And this part cracks me up "Women are bound to their homes and their own bodies, expected to find fulfillment in repetitive mindless domestic tasks that limit them to mother."

Are we talking about America or Saudi Arabia? I don't know any woman that is "bound to their homes" LOL.

Perhaps you should visit eastern Washington state or take a tour of small towns in the Old South.

But I have to say, every time I read or hear the bolded part coming out of someone's mouth, I just stare in stunned silence.

You mean the part that says that maybe we should try to stop rape by stopping rapists?

 

[faceless007]

Couldn't that be also said for lots of jobs?

Sure. And people in those jobs often aspire to escape them, and someone who does want to is usually seen as having ambition and individualism. But many women who decide they don't want to be SAHMs are often criticized or shunned for it because having that job is seen as being integral to their gender (although this is probably much less the case today than 30 years ago, when second-wave feminism was fighting this fight).

 

[Mumei]

Couldn't that be also said for lots of jobs?

Sure. But he said he found it grotesquely offensive that someone would define motherhood as a mere chore. And yeah, it can also rewarding and obviously it is a lot more socially important than the sum of its parts, but ... a large part of motherhood does consist of a lot of chores and finding that offensive is more than a bit ridiculous.

Of course, that wasn't even the point of that paragraph so I don't know why he fixated on that point.

 

[faceless007]

But I have to say, every time I read or hear the bolded part coming out of someone's mouth, I just stare in stunned silence.

Can you elaborate on why you think teaching men how not to commit rape instead of teaching women how not to be raped is such a perplexing idea?

 

[Jado]

I dont think you realize that this basically is victim blaming. Except that you're also basically calling them stupid on top of that, as if they aren't capable of understanding this issue like men can or something.

This is my takeway from the article as well, e.g. Sanky's "explanation" is more victim blaming. The OP's girlfriend essentially says that a woman who gets breast implants is somehow less of a woman and less intelligent. Frankly, she sounds like a sex-negative prude who doesn't mind doing her share of victim blaming. A person wanting to look and feel attractive doesn't make 'em a dolt or less informed, or asking for "it", or whatever.

Edit:
Just saw that the OP is Dominican (we're an old-fashioned bunch even when we mean well). Explains the quote below, the righteous old-fashioned stance, and why you and your girl have decided what's right/wrong for women to be doing. To reiterate, there's nothing wrong with getting implants for purely cosmetic reasons. Blame the guy who treats such a woman like trash or the women in her life who thinks that makes her a dumb bimbo.

As my gf pointed out, what would lead them to alter a pleasure point that ultimately feeds their loved offspring?

 

[Mumei]

His argument was coming from a evolutionary perspective, not a "this is why men do it" perspective. You're ascribing way too much into a generic explanation of why this behavior might have developed over the course of human development. (For a crazy example of this type of stuff, go look up Duck mating.)

Rape is indeed used in reproduction in some animals - you could have used orangutans as an example much more closely related to humans - but the argument that he presented of "Men want to have lots of sex -> Women are picky -> Men who don't get picked become rapists" doesn't resemble anything we know rapists or their motivations, and while it might sound internally consistent and seem satisfying as an explanation (and you can point to examples of this in the natural world), it doesn't hold up to what we actually know.

 

[Sub_Level]

Men who commit rape or beat women are scumbag assholes. I don't think American culture condones that kind of thing, and none of the guys I know think women who were raped or beaten were "asking for it". In fact, if I took a survey amongst my group of male friends I could assure you that they would find that the rapist should be dragged out into the street and shot. No questions asked.

I would find it very disheartening if my group of friends was not representative of the greater male population in that regard. This kinda thing is prevented when the male is a child and is taught moral values.

As far as advertisements focusing on womens' looks rather than their deeds, I'm not sure that's a cultural issue. Sure, encourage more women to enter scientific, medical, and technology fields. Better skill sets and higher wages will make you more equal in society. But there's nothing wrong with portraying ideals of attractiveness. Women who apply makeup, get cosmetic surgery, or dress a certain way are no more or less justified than guys who work out, dress spiffy, or get a slick haircut. Sexy people are sexy people regardless of the culture you're in, it's just biology. At best, different cultures focus on different body parts, clothing, or styles of makeup. People who objectify women or only judge them by their looks are stupid in the first place and lack pretty basic critical thinking skills and any reasonable degree of empathy. I'm not sure drastic changes should be made to the portrayal of women in media, film, literature, videogames, e.t.c. just because there exists gullible individuals who eat that shit up without any sort of greater context. Why should culture be changed because of assholes and stupid people? Why can't assholes and stupid people change? And don't say it's because the culture itself produces assholes and stupid people, because good education and good upbringing are far more influential and will outclass anything in movies, music, or television every time.

 

[Sanky Panky]

This is my takeway from the article as well, e.g. Sanky's "explanation" is more victim blaming. The OP's girlfriend essentially says that a woman who gets breast implants is somehow less of a woman and less intelligent. Frankly, she sounds like a sex-negative prude who doesn't mind doing her share of victim blaming. A person wanting to look and feel attractive doesn't make 'em a dolt or less informed, or asking for "it", or whatever.

Textbook replies to women issues here. Not only is my girlfriend down to being a sex-negative prude (is that how you view feminists in general?), but awareness of the issues comes down to whether the woman is guilty or not for being raped.

As long as the woman recognizes WHY she is doing the fake boobs (or why the raise her self esteem), then she can recognized that big breasts are one of the most important aspects of sexualized images of women enforced by men. SHe's not less of a woman, or less intelligent, but if she is aware of this and STILL conforms to the culture, then she is perpetuating the problem.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Men who commit rape or beat women are scumbag assholes. I don't think American culture condones that kind of thing, and none of the guys I know think women who were raped or beaten were "asking for it". In fact, if I took a survey amongst my group of male friends I could assure you that they would find that the rapist should be dragged out into the street and shot. No qu

Of course no normal man is going to say that a woman deserved to be raped in front of his peers.

But that's partially because people's view of rape tends to be limited to the "violent", obvious type of rape that's wrong. Watch Revenge of the Nerds for the scene where the main character has sex with a girl while disguised as her boyfriend...it's played for laughs and a triumphant moment for the main character, but in reality it's basically a form of rape because he is knowingly tricking a woman into having sex with him.

 

[kirblar]

Can you elaborate on why you think teaching men how not to commit rape instead of teaching women how not to be raped is such a perplexing idea?

Because it's hopelessly naive?

We already teach people to do it. And most people listen. Some don't. You're not going to magically develop empathy and/or impulse control in people lacking it.

 

[pigeon]

Because it's hopelessly naive?

We already teach people to do it. And most people listen. Some don't. You're not going to magically develop empathy and/or impulse control in people lacking it.

Bwuh, this is silly. Impulse control and empathy are absolutely learnable skills and they should be taught to people. Do we try to prevent casualties from drunk driving by teaching people how to dive out of the way of oncoming cars, or do we try to tell people -- occasionally by government force -- that driving drunk is wrong?

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Of course it won't be completely successful...but I'd imagine it would definitely help the problem by making rape committed by friends, boyfriends, and husbands decrease significantly. Obviously you're not going to stop the serial, violent, rapists, but what's wrong with striving for a society where women don't have to fear being sexually assaulted by their male peers?

 

[kirblar]

Of course it won't be completely successful...but I'd imagine it would definitely help the problem by making rape committed by friends, boyfriends, and husbands decrease significantly. Obviously you're not going to stop the serial, violent, rapists, but what's wrong with striving for a society where women don't have to fear being sexually assaulted by their male peers?

So you're going to fix a problem by telling someone who's already doing something they know hurts people and is viewed by society as wrong by telling them that society thinks it's wrong and the it hurts people?

 

[Jado]

Textbook replies to women issues here. Not only is my girlfriend down to being a sex-negative prude (is that how you view feminists in general?), but awareness of the issues comes down to whether the woman is guilty or not for being raped.

As long as the woman recognizes WHY she is doing the fake boobs (or why the raise her self esteem), then she can recognized that big breasts are one of the most important aspects of sexualized images of women enforced by men. SHe's not less of a woman, or less intelligent, but if she is aware of this and STILL conforms to the culture, then she is perpetuating the problem.

No, that's not how I view feminists in general, although a fair number of them would think you and your girl are rather ridiculous in your assertions. The above bolded is clearly victim-blaming. I hope your lady isn't widely published because people like you two are annoying.

 

[faceless007]

So you're going to fix a problem by telling someone who's already doing something they know hurts people and is viewed by society as wrong by telling them that society thinks it's wrong and the it hurts people?

As this post by Mumei in another thread explains (particularly the last paragraph), the problem is that rapists don't think what they're doing is wrong, and that society hasn't done a good enough job getting that message through.

 

[Sub_Level]

Of course no normal man is going to say that a woman deserved to be raped in front of his peers.

But that's partially because people's view of rape tends to be limited to the "violent", obvious type of rape that's wrong. Watch Revenge of the Nerds for the scene where the main character has sex with a girl while disguised as her boyfriend...it's played for laughs and a triumphant moment for the main character, but in reality it's basically a form of rape because he is knowingly tricking a woman into having sex with him.

Maybe I have a delusional overly optimistic view (and I do at times) but I would like to think most men are a bit more honorable than that (and not honor in the naive romanticized way, but in the...basic human moral courtesy of not masquerading as another man type honor lol)

So you're going to fix a problem by telling someone who's already doing something they know hurts people and is viewed by society as wrong by telling them that society thinks it's wrong and the it hurts people?

The point is to get it into their head before they rape, not someone who's already doing it. Look at religion and politics to see how effectively you can get certain ideas into peoples minds (obviously religion and politics do not give rise to the most positive of ideas but hopefully you see my point. That you can cement values in peoples heads.).

 

[kirblar]

Soyou tell them society thinks it's bad, and so they just do it when they think they won't be caught or can keep the victim silent.

They're rapists because they want to rape, not because we haven't prevented them from developing into them.