TSMC waffer prices revealed, including N3

winjer

Gold Member



An important thing to note is that N7 waffer was priced at 6500$ just 2 years ago. But TSMC decided to jack up prices, because of high demand.
But now that demand has fallen off a cliff, they insist on keeping the same price, just because of pure greed.
And of course, the prices for other process nodes were increased as well. So we have an increase in prices because these nodes are harder to develop, but were exacerbated because of plain old greed.


The report states that due to its dominance in the chip manufacturing field and no competition yet in the 3nm process segment, TSMC is going to raise the prices of its 3nm wafers significantly. TSMC wafer pricing is depicted in a chart that shows the jump from 7nm ($10,000 US) to 5nm ($16,000) wafers to be around 60%. Now with 3nm, TSMC's wafer costs are expected to surpass the $20,000 US figure which would mean that we are bound to get more expensive products in the form of next generation CPUs and GPUs.

Currently, AMD and NVIDIA are some of the prime customers of TSMC alongside Apple and others. NVIDIA has definitely bumped up the prices of their cards per segment. The RTX 4090 costs 10-15% more than the RTX 3090 and the RTX 4080 costs over 50% higher than the RTX 3080. NVIDIA's CEO was also reported to visit Taiwan to talk with TSMC's CEO about securing 3nm wafers early on for their next-gen GPU lineup.
AMD has been able to offset the price by mixing and matching different nodes on its chiplet products. The Ryzen, Radeon, and EPYC lineup utilize both 5nm and 6nm technologies and chiplets to help cut-down overall costs associated with monolithic dies. Moving forward, Intel is also going to leverage TSMC N5 and N3 process nodes for its Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake tGPU IPs.

But this dependency on TSMC means that the semiconductor manufacturing company will remain in a dominant position and can justify the higher prices for its technological edge over others. Rival Samsung had also stated that they were going to begin mass production of their own 3nm (GAP) node by 2024 however things aren't looking great as the yields are less than 20% & there are many issues with Samsung's next-gen node at the moment. All of this means is that chip prices are going to continue to go higher in terms of costs and unless there's another competitor on the same level as TSMC, we can't expect this trend to break.
 
Well, it’s capitalism. Obviously I’m not happy about it but that’s life. And they are not a monopoly even though they clearly have the best tech, similar to Nvidia vs AMD GPUs.
 

ahtlas7

Member
1999€ phones when?
Soon As Possible.
I was looking at 14pro max cost this morning: 1479€ that does include 20%? vat. though. I need a new phone so I'll probably pay it and contribute to the problem.

Honestly though, if you shrink the die size does the wafer remain the same size therefore yielding more chips and offsetting some cost? I understand the failure rate could increase so maybe it's a wash... but I'm speaking out my butt. I don't really know.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Anyone saying it’s pure greed have no idea the constant investment they have to put in to keep improving their process.
Manufacturing isn’t free. And having to constantly improve bleeding edge processes is unlike many other manufacturers.
 
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Amiga

Member
[/URL]



An important thing to note is that N7 waffer was priced at 6500$ just 2 years ago. But TSMC decided to jack up prices, because of high demand.
But now that demand has fallen off a cliff, they insist on keeping the same price, just because of pure greed.
And of course, the prices for other process nodes were increased as well. So we have an increase in prices because these nodes are harder to develop, but were exacerbated because of plain old greed.

That is what happens when you have no competition, Global Foundries quit at 12nm and left the market all to TSMC.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Anyone saying it’s pure greed have no idea the constant investment they have to put in to keep improving their process.
Manufacturing isn’t free. And having to constantly improve bleeding edge processes is unlike many other manufacturers.

Then why did N7 increase from 6500$ per waffer, to 10000$? The node was already developed and very mature.
Even N5 saw an increase, after being in mass production.
Yes, costs to make new nodes have increased, but not by this huge margin.
The huge demand during the last 2 years drove costs up. This was simple law of supply and demand.
But now demand has fallen by a huge margin, but prices have not gone to 2020 levels.
 

Haggard

Banned
Anyone saying it’s pure greed have no idea the constant investment they have to put in to keep improving their process.
Manufacturing isn’t free. And having to constantly improve bleeding edge processes is unlike many other manufacturers.
Go suck some more corporate dick right after you have revisited TSMC`s net profit development over the last 2 years and realized what a colossal idiot you`ve been just now.
They are currently sitting at a nice comfy 42% margin.........
 

Amiga

Member
TBF, a smaller node should yield more chips per wafer. so 20k for 3nm is arguably cheaper than 10k for 7nm. Even before factoring the big spike in currency inflation between them.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Go suck some more corporate dick right after you have revisited TSMC`s net profit development over the last 2 years and realized what a colossal idiot you`ve been just now.
They are currently sitting at a nice comfy 42% margin.........
That’s only very recently. They have been working on thin margins for years. So you are saying they shouldn’t get any period of great profits ?
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius



An important thing to note is that N7 waffer was priced at 6500$ just 2 years ago. But TSMC decided to jack up prices, because of high demand.
But now that demand has fallen off a cliff, they insist on keeping the same price, just because of pure greed.
And of course, the prices for other process nodes were increased as well. So we have an increase in prices because these nodes are harder to develop, but were exacerbated because of plain old greed.
On top of that you have higher cost for the design tools, it is not just wagers and manufacturing but design too. Sure they are being greedy too, but it is not all just greed.

Keep saying it… performance improvements at fixed cost / power envelope are slowing down / taking longer and longer to achieve and there are diminishing returns on games where bigger and bigger performance improvements are needed to move the needle.
Asking for HW to be released more and more frequently is a consumer desired anti consumer move… not the first time turkeys offer to help prepare Thanksgiving meals ;).
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
TBF, a smaller node should yield more chips per wafer. so 20k for 3nm is arguably cheaper than 10k for 7nm. Even before factoring the big spike in currency inflation between them.
It should but the equipment to actually process these wafers and the steps required get costlier and costlier.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
That is what happens when you have no competition, Global Foundries quit at 12nm and left the market all to TSMC.
Agreed, but prices were bound to rise anyways. It could be said that TSMC was taking a hit early on waiting to capitalise once the competition thinned out, so yeah they are abusing their power now, but it is not the full story…
 

Godot25

Member
[/URL]



An important thing to note is that N7 waffer was priced at 6500$ just 2 years ago. But TSMC decided to jack up prices, because of high demand.
But now that demand has fallen off a cliff, they insist on keeping the same price, just because of pure greed.
And of course, the prices for other process nodes were increased as well. So we have an increase in prices because these nodes are harder to develop, but were exacerbated because of plain old greed.
I get that price of wafer is going up when you going into lower node. But isn't that compensated by the fact that you have much more chips out of one wafer when you will shrink the node? Of course, if you can hit similar effectivity.
 

Larogue

Member
TBF, a smaller node should yield more chips per wafer. so 20k for 3nm is arguably cheaper than 10k for 7nm. Even before factoring the big spike in currency inflation between them.
No, historically the yield gets worse with each node shrink (more complexity = more defects) .

Take Samsung's 3nm for example, they are getting the worse yield ever at 20%.

 

Neilg

Member
I might be wrong here, but isnt each wafer the same physical size - so a 3nm process to do a chip of the same design complexity as a 7nm would result in more usable chips per-wafer?
 

Haggard

Banned
That’s only very recently. They have been working on thin margins for years. So you are saying they shouldn’t get any period of great profits ?
Riiight.
It´s almost as if their financial reports weren`t publicly available because they are a stock-company and wouldn`t immediately tell everyone looking at them what horrendous bullshit you are spewing here.
 
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Agreed, but prices were bound to rise anyways. It could be said that TSMC was taking a hit early on waiting to capitalise once the competition thinned out, so yeah they are abusing their power now, but it is not the full story…

I don't know, Pana, I'm usually in agreement with everything you say, but market economies have the tacit assumption of competition to force prices back down. When there's a player with monopolistic control, which TSMC basically is on the advanced nodes, there's no force to ratchet the demand-induced increases back down. Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Activision-Bizzard thread talking about monopolies, but I dunno.
 

bbeach123

Member
Considering how money worth in recent years , I say compared to earlier node increase , this climb is pretty low .
 
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I Master l

Member
After 3nm its over for die shrinkage we need a new material that has silicon properties but doesnt have its limitations
 
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Arioco

Member
Problem is there's really no competition, TSMC just produces the best silicon in the world. Samsung seems currently unable to compete with TSMC (they have been for some time now) so corporations that just want the best of the best for their products have no choice but to pay what TSMC ask for. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
I don't know, Pana, I'm usually in agreement with everything you say, but market economies have the tacit assumption of competition to force prices back down. When there's a player with monopolistic control, which TSMC basically is on the advanced nodes, there's no force to ratchet the demand-induced increases back down. Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Activision-Bizzard thread talking about monopolies, but I dunno.
I agree with you about the lack of competition helping them increase their margins a lot, they are being greedy but there is a hint that they intentionally kept lower margins to push UMC and GloFo out of the highest performance segment (they had gazillion of guaranteed orders from people like Apple).
Also, prices were bound to increase anyways, not this much but they were bound to increase.

The thing about competition… if competitors, due to lack of incentives or orders from customers (depending of the product customers are other businesses or end users), only exist to lower the cost of the market leader then when the cost of innovation rises a lot they tend to die out.

TSMC was able to secure massive orders and was the only one able to sort itself out on time for more and more advanced nodes and they are now trying to reap their reward for outlasting the pack. They are taking advantage of monopoly conditions but they do have a justification in the fact that silicon manufacturing costs are still rising exponentially too.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
After 3nm its over for die shrinkage we need a new material that has silicon properties but doesnt have its limitations
… and people still scream for new HW to be released more frequently… while the world is saying “actually having longer generations would serve you better than shorter ones and stop gap machines, but … sure… fill your boots”.
 
After 3nm its over for die shrinkage we need a new material that has silicon properties but doesnt have its limitations
I think 2nm is already ready in labs and 1,4 announced for the end of the decade. But these gaps are were atoms behave funky so yeah something will need to change.
I can perfectly live with revised 5800X3D + 4090 level of performance for a decade or probably a lot longer. There is certainly still some room for improvement within our current nodes. If intels 14nm basically was comparable with what AMD/tsmc offered with 7nm. Those numbers anyway mean little and and there are several specifications that are still higher than the marketing number.
Will get interesting to see what China comes up with soon too. Their Moore MTT S80 is a bit of a joke today, maybe possibly more driver issue than hw though, but since America prevents them to just buy "our" best technology, from ASML, they will probably research and try to build it themselves.
 

Reizo Ryuu

Member
I swear I've been hearing this since at least 14nm. "this is the smallest we can go".
There's actual physics limitations when you approach 1nm (look up electron gating), and even if you manage to overcome that, you'd still run into the problem of running out of actual physical space between transistors (0.6nm); things cannot get smaller forever.
 

Reallink

Member
My guess is someone at Apple HQ is going like this:

Episode 6 Sacrifice GIF by BET Plus


Will take a few years, but same thing with Apple Silicon.

LOL few years, try few decades. TSMC's leading nodes are the most complex science fiction shit on the face of the earth, their 2nm technology will have taken them 20 years to develop by the time it comes to market. What's more, the amount of poaching and buy outs Apple would have to get past regulation bodies before they even broke ground on a factory would be insurmountable.
 

Cyberpunkd

Gold Member
LOL few years, try few decades. TSMC's leading nodes are the most complex science fiction shit on the face of the earth, their 2nm technology will have taken them 20 years to develop by the time it comes to market. What's more, the amount of poaching and buy outs Apple would have to get past regulation bodies before they even broke ground on a factory would be insurmountable.
I'm sure people said the same thing about Apple building their own M1 chips.
 

Haggard

Banned
I'm sure people said the same thing about Apple building their own M1 chips.
Ever heard of the relationship Apple`s chips have with ARM?
Developing and actually implementing fabrication technology nearly from scratch and (re)designing some existing chip architectures which then are conveniently produced elsewhere is absolutely incomparable.

Your comparison is nonsense.
 
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Cyberpunkd

Gold Member
Ever heard of the relationship Apple`s chips have with ARM?
Developing and actually implementing fabrication technology nearly from scratch and (re)designing some existing chip architectures which then are conveniently produced elsewhere is absolutely incomparable.

Your comparison is nonsense.
It's a business reality - at some point someone will look at the landscape and will say: "this puts us at a mercy of an outside company, something we depend on and we cannot control". Samsung already came to that conclusion, but then again as typical Asian conglomerate they do not have the needed focus on what is important (as evidenced by a multitude of products that serve no purpose whatsoever). Apple will move way faster.
 

Buggy Loop

Member
LOL few years, try few decades. TSMC's leading nodes are the most complex science fiction shit on the face of the earth, their 2nm technology will have taken them 20 years to develop by the time it comes to market. What's more, the amount of poaching and buy outs Apple would have to get past regulation bodies before they even broke ground on a factory would be insurmountable.

Not sure I follow…

TSMC buys the lithography machines from ASML. ASML is really the king of lithography by a huge margin, almost everyone else is either so behind that they’re a non factor or closed doors. But the bulk of the “witchcraft” is on ASML’s side, not TSMC. They just somehow had so much capital injected to buy the majority of ASML’s yearly output that they choked competition.

But still, what’s to stop Apple from buying these? They’re $150M a pop. Surely they can figure out the rest with the budget and smart peoples they have. US government would probably even step in to help as they want to lower their dependency to Taiwan as it’s almost a WW3 trigger point with China at this point.
 

Amiga

Member
US government would probably even step in to help as they want to lower their dependency to Taiwan as it’s almost a WW3 trigger point with China at this point.

New CHIPS act started this already. a lot of advanced semiconductor manufacturing will develop locally in the USA, but will take years to see effects.
 

Haggard

Banned
It's a business reality - at some point someone will look at the landscape and will say: "this puts us at a mercy of an outside company, something we depend on and we cannot control". Samsung already came to that conclusion, but then again as typical Asian conglomerate they do not have the needed focus on what is important (as evidenced by a multitude of products that serve no purpose whatsoever). Apple will move way faster.
Still nonsense.
Technological complexity is not a business decision, it`s a simple fact. It´s not something you can simply throw money at and expect extreme shortcuts. The example with Samsung is even bigger nonsense considering they`ve been at it for half a century.......

The only "fast" possibility to get up to date with modern semiconductor manufacturing at industrial level is to buy an existing manufacturer and none of those are for sale for good reasons.
 
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