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[Takuan]

So the concerns of queer people of color are totally irrelevant to Pride. Only how they treat queer white people matter, and as long as all's good there, that should be celebrated. Also, apparently queer people of color aren't part of the homosexual community. Gotcha. Good to know.

If that's what Pride is becoming (which I know it sadly it and is probably not stoppable at this point), then even as someone who's white and bisexual I want nothing to do with it if it's in any way making any of my black brothers and sister feel uncomfortable or forgotten about.

And before you say it, I know none of that is in any way what you mean. I'm confident you didn't mean for any of that to come of that that way. But it's not just intent that matters when those words and choices have the same result regardless and have the same impact. Regardless of how good the intention, the result remains the same, so we have to be careful about that. If you're thinking along the lines you are in your post, that shows that your heart may be in the right place but you're missing the mark a bit and capable of being better. So be better.

And in any case, cops are allowed to participate--they just can't do so in uniform. If they nonetheless care more about wearing their uniform of all things than making sure that queer people of color actually feel comfortable being there at Pride with them, then that just tells me everything I need to know about their priorities and how they apparently want to participate in Pride while at the same time missing the entire point of it, trying to make it more about them than the people it's supposed to be celebrating.

Gonna be totally honest here - my initial reaction to this post was anger. Then I did some reading. Took two articles to realize I hadn't put in enough effort.

I appreciate your response - sincerely - and I'll try to be better.

 

[darscot]

Carding is a huge deal to the Toronto black community it's been written about in detail for several years now... that it doesn't mean anything to you doesn't make it not an actual relevant topic...


But here is more



And from Ottawa



http://www.torontoforall.ca/systemic-racism-by-the-numbers

I'm not arguing if its harder to be black. I am arguing the police as an establishment oppress them. Yes society needs to work hard and do a better job. This whole pointing fingers at the police as a whole for the issues of society is bullshit. In Canada anyway police in other places are very different.

 

[2Smashed4U]

I think what they're trying to say is that when a trans police officer is oppressed, it is because of gender, not their profession.



Your reply was more biting when it was just "Excuse me?"

EDIT: Jeez you're turning your post into an essay at this rate

I get that it's because of their gender, but there is also an element that it *is* because of their profession as well, yknow? If you're in a field where it's a harder to be open about your identity, I can definitely empathize with the desire to celebrate your openness as a person in a field where it's harder to do so.

 

[Deepwater]

eventually "allies" are going to have to reconcile the idea that black activists don't fuck with the police, point blank period.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I get that it's because of their gender, but there is also an element that it *is* because of their profession as well, yknow? If you're in a field where it's a harder to be open about your identity, I can definitely empathize with the desire to celebrate your openness as a person in a field where it's harder to do so.

But should that desire to march as a trans police officer be prioritized over the right for queer POC to feel comfortable marching? Professions should absolutely not be prioritized.

 

[darscot]

But should that desire to march as a trans police officer be prioritized over the right for queer POC to feel comfortable marching?

I fully admit I have not been to the parade in toronto but I have been to other cities and its not a day of fear. Its a day or full on expression. If you do not feel safe at pride because a policeman wants to support you in uniform I think there is some other bias at play here.

 

[kirblar]

Really if this is successful (ie if Pride capitulates to the Police Union) it'll just be the next step in the growing irrelevancy of Pride... it used to be about fighting the inherent bigotry in the system... it used to be about refusing to be silenced and rendered invisible, but now it's almost a different type of invisibility... we're losing the inherent political nature of what it mean to be queer in society... we are buying into a system that will tolerate us in return for us not rocking the boat anymore.

Pride used to be about rebellion now it's about putting on a family friendly show for non queer folk to marvel and gawk at.

Pride TO cannot capitulate, it must stand for some of their most vulnerable members, failure to do so renders Pride a toothless PR arm of the government.

What about those for whom invisibility is not a choice, but a fact of their existence? (I'm deliberately stepping back from the larger social issues/activism battle going on here to pull out this point on invisibility as it relates to individuals)

I'm invisible unless you actually know me. I don't "read" gay/feminine/etc, and it's not a mask I'm putting on simply to survive. Growing up and going through puberty was confusing because I knew I wasn't *that* (*that* being stereotypically feminine gay guy w/ obvious tells who you can spot a mile away) but there weren't really any people I could look at and go "Oh that's like me!" I had absorbed the lesson of the Frat House ep of Fresh Prince- I knew I didn't need to change myself, but it still was a lonely closeted Island. Seeing Richard Hatch on Survivor being a guy who just happened to be gay was huge for teenage me.

For the LGBT police officers who want to participate in this, I suspect a big reason is because many of them are invisible when they put on the uniform. Not because they're trying to assimilate, but because without them telling you they're gay, no one would know. Over the course of their workday, the number of situations where their sexuality is relevant to their job and would be brought up is likely close to 0. (Oddly enough, this exact scenario came up on Survivor this past fall as well.) And so in a situation like this, it lets them display that part of them in an environment where they can just display it without having to bring it up.

So when they say this is important to them (again, ignoring the larger institutional/activism battles), I get it. Over the course of a day, it's far more likely that my dietary restrictions will come up in conversation with a random person than it is my sexuality will. They want the ability to passively bring up their sexuality in their uniform without it being really weird and out of place, and being able to march in the uniform at PRIDE lets them do that.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I fully admit I have not been to the parade in toronto but I have been to other cities and its not a day of fear. Its a day or full on expression. If you do not feel safe at pride because a policeman wants to support you in uniform I think there is some other bias at play here.

Have you spoken to a queer POC in the area about this? Because if you haven't, I'd ask why you're certain that queer POC are unfairly biased against police officers, and why it is not the case that you don't hold a bias yourself.

 

[2Smashed4U]

But should that desire to march as a trans police officer be prioritized over the right for queer POC to feel comfortable marching?

Yeah, I don't know, that's a harder question for me to answer. I can see the points for both, but I kind of feel like...they are both part of the LGBTQ community, they both share Pride. Pride is not inherently about black issues, even though I understand those issues are present insofar that LGBTQ people of color are there. But hypothetical trans cop is also part of the community as well.

I don't know. It's tricky.

 

[IrishNinja]

eventually "allies" are going to have to reconcile the idea that black activists don't fuck with the police, point blank period.

the ease with which FOX/etc got to paint BLM as terrorist/etc shows we're really not ready for that important conversation yet

too busy out here waiting for police union statements cause #gottahearbothsides

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yeah, I don't know, that's a harder question for me to answer. I can see the points for both, but I kind of feel like...they are both part of the LGBTQ community, they both share Pride. Pride is not inherently about black issues, even though I understand those issues are present insofar that LGBTQ people of color are there. But hypothetical trans cop is also part of the community as well.

I don't know. It's tricky.

A queer POC can't just acquiesce and lighten their skin, but a police officer can remove their uniform. A trans police officer wanting to march as a police officer is not equal to a queer POC wanting to march while feeling comfortable about doing so. Yes, it would be ideal if a trans police officer could march as a police officer, but that ideal scenario also includes a society where racial discrimination by police officers is not a serious issue.

 

[darscot]

Have you spoken to a queer POC in the area about this? Because if you haven't, I'd ask why you're certain that queer POC are unfairly biased against police officers, and why it is not the case that you don't hold a bias yourself.

I was not clear with what I said. The bias is real, and some may be uncomfortable. I do not feel that it justifies oppressing anyone from supporting the parade and standing up and marching for what they believe. Protest all you want I fully support that, but that day is the day to come together it is not a day to oppress anyone. If you start oppressing on pride its over.

 

[Breads]

Well damn. Nuclear option right out of the gate. Pull a float and they call to pull funding.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I was not clear with what I said. The bias is real, and some may be uncomfortable. I do not feel that it justifies oppressing anyone from supporting the parade and standing up and marching for what they believe. Protest all you want I fully support that, but that day is the day to come together it is not a day to oppress anyone. If you start oppressing on pride its over.

You ask for queer POC to overlook the actions of the police before the police have solved the problem. Why are you asking an oppressed group to be better than the group oppressing them?

 

[2Smashed4U]

A queer POC can't just acquiesce and lighten their skin, but a police officer can remove their uniform. A trans police officer wanting to march as a police officer is not equal to a queer POC wanting to march while feeling comfortable about doing so. Yes, it would be ideal if a trans police officer could march as a police officer, but that ideal scenario also includes a society where racial discrimination by police officers is not a serious issue.

I get that, but a trans person also can't necessarily remove their trans identity when they go into work day to day, either. And if working as a police officer is harder for a trans person on a day to day basis because of their gender identity, and they want to celebrate being a trans police officer because of that, I'm not going to be the person that says "nope that doesn't matter enough."

 

[Enzom21]

Yeah, I don't know, that's a harder question for me to answer. I can see the points for both, but I kind of feel like...they are both part of the LGBTQ community, they both share Pride. Pride is not inherently about black issues, even though I understand those issues are present insofar that LGBTQ people of color are there. But hypothetical trans cop is also part of the community as well.

I don't know. It's tricky.

Are you comparing a chosen profession to race?

 

[Sapiens]

I understand why BLM+Pride made that decision in the first place (carding), but I feel it was ultimately a miscalculation.

 

[darscot]

You ask for queer POC to overlook the actions of the police before the police have solved the problem. Why are you asking an oppressed group to be better than the group oppressing them?

They need to stop the generalization. The police are people just like everyone else and those individuals should be welcome. They should be welcome to come dressed the way they are most comfortable. If that is in uniform on a float so be it. If pride wants to have a float that makes a statement about the establishment of the police all the power to them. Excluding those willing to march and trying to improve the establishment is stupidity. The police as an establishment are wrong in this bullshit about funding.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I get that, but a trans person also can't necessarily remove their trans identity when they go into work day to day, either. And if working as a police officer is harder for a trans person on a day to day basis because of their gender identity, and they want to celebrate being a trans police officer because of that, I'm not going to be the person that says "nope that doesn't matter enough."

The issue comes down to that we're putting race and profession on equal levels. Again, a trans police officer is not defined by being a police officer, but a queer POC is defined by being POC. A queer POC marches as a POC, a trans police officer may choose (in theory) to march as a police officer. It's an incredibly flawed comparison.

 

[excelsiorlef]

What about those for whom invisibility is not a choice, but a fact of their existence? (I'm deliberately stepping back from the larger social issues/activism battle going on here to pull out this point on invisibility as it relates to individuals)

I'm invisible unless you actually know me. I don't "read" gay/feminine/etc, and it's not a mask I'm putting on simply to survive. Growing up and going through puberty was confusing because I knew I wasn't *that* (*that* being stereotypically feminine gay guy w/ obvious tells who you can spot a mile away) but there weren't really any people I could look at and go "Oh that's like me!" I had absorbed the lesson of the Frat House ep of Fresh Prince- I knew I didn't need to change myself, but it still was a lonely closeted Island. Seeing Richard Hatch on Survivor being a guy who just happened to be gay was huge for teenage me.

For the LGBT police officers who want to participate in this, I suspect a big reason is because many of them are invisible when they put on the uniform. Not because they're trying to assimilate, but because without them telling you they're gay, no one would know. Over the course of their workday, the number of situations where their sexuality is relevant to their job and would be brought up is likely close to 0. (Oddly enough, this exact scenario came up on Survivor this past fall as well.) And so in a situation like this, it lets them display that part of them in an environment where they can just display it without having to bring it up.

So when they say this is important to them (again, ignoring the larger institutional/activism battles), I get it. Over the course of a day, it's far more likely that my dietary restrictions will come up in conversation with a random person than it is my sexuality will. They want the ability to passively bring up their sexuality in their uniform without it being really weird and out of place, and being able to march in the uniform at PRIDE lets them do that.

And I do understand that but at the end of the day I can't and won't divorce it from the larger institutional/activism battles.

But I really do appreciate this post

 

[2Smashed4U]

Are you comparing a chosen profession to race?

No, but I appreciate the reductionism.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

I don't know that it's true that the homosexual community associates cops with systemic oppression and discrimination. Times and attitudes have changed, and the police force with it. The parade should be a celebration of that evolution.

They don't because its probably white privilege at work. Black and Latino LGBTQ aren't in a position to be enamored by police for obvious reasons.

 

[A Link to the Past]

They need to stop the generalization. The police are people just like everyone else and those individuals should be welcome. They should be welcome to come dressed the way they are most comfortable. If that is in uniform on a float so be it. If pride wants to have a float that makes a statement about the establishment of the police all the power to them. Excluding those willing to march and trying to improve the establishment is stupidity. The police as an establishment are wrong in this bullshit about funding.

Not one human was banned from the parade. The parade chose to not invite the police to the parade in the capacity as police, and the police chose to not attend.

Marching as a representative of the Toronto police force inherently entails that you represent them - good and bad. So yes, you carry that with you into Pride, and it will negatively affect people marching who have been wronged by the institution you're representing.

No, but I appreciate the reductionism.

I would honestly suggest that your point is being reductivist. Yes, there are issues that trans people face in the police force - as well as retail, food service, healthcare, construction, etc. But as I said above, a desire to be seen as a police officer is not comparable.

 

[Moppeh]

Well damn. Nuclear option right out of the gate. Pull a float and they call to pull funding.

I wouldn't call this "right out of the gate". This whole thing started in like July.

 

[2Smashed4U]

The issue comes down to that we're putting race and profession on equal levels. Again, a trans police officer is not defined by being a police officer, but a queer POC is defined by being POC. A queer POC marches as a POC, a trans police officer may choose (in theory) to march as a police officer. It's an incredibly flawed comparison.

I think that's kind of a stiff lens to view the issue, though.

I get that a LGBTQ person who is a cop isn't inherently a cop, but I don't think that's where the issue lies necessarily for them. I understand that if a LGBTQ person was facing discrimination as a police officer, they could just quit their job and find work elsewhere where they don't have to face it (as much), but I feel like Pride itself is a celebration of not having to do that. I feel like that's what it is for a large amount of people, is being able to be out and proud and being the person you choose to be in your daily life.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think that's kind of a stiff lens to view the issue, though.

I get that a LGBTQ person who is a cop isn't inherently a cop, but I don't think that's where the issue lies necessarily for them. I understand that if a LGBTQ person was facing discrimination as a police officer, they could just quit their job and find work elsewhere where they don't have to face it (as much), but I feel like Pride itself is a celebration of not having to do that. I feel like that's what it is for a large amount of people, is being able to be out and proud and being the person you choose to be in your daily life.

Again, it's just going to come down to that in a fight between "I want to represent police in the parade" and "I want to feel safe in the parade," the latter should win out.

 

[darscot]

Again, it's just going to come down to that in a fight between "I want to represent police in the parade" and "I want to feel safe in the parade," the latter should win out.

Do you think the absence of the police will make it safer for people?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think that's kind of a stiff lens to view the issue, though.

I get that a LGBTQ person who is a cop isn't inherently a cop, but I don't think that's where the issue lies necessarily for them. I understand that if a LGBTQ person was facing discrimination as a police officer, they could just quit their job and find work elsewhere where they don't have to face it (as much), but I feel like Pride itself is a celebration of not having to do that. I feel like that's what it is for a large amount of people, is being able to be out and proud and being the person you choose to be in your daily life.

But here's the thing by marching they are not fighting the oppression of the Queer folk from within the police department... Those floats are not speaking out against the oppression of queer folk from within the police department...

There's zero commentary on that from what I have seen. What they are doing is crafting an image of a Pro LGBT Police, it is PR for the very people you are claiming internally oppress them...

 

[2Smashed4U]

Again, it's just going to come down to that in a fight between "I want to represent police in the parade" and "I want to feel safe in the parade," the latter should win out.

And to be fair, I don't think cops on a float should necessarily make anyone feel unsafe. I think that's more on the individual in that scenario.

I would be more worried about the police on foot that are actively patrolling these parades than I would some off duty officers on a float.

 

[Breads]

I wouldn't call this "right out of the gate". This whole thing started in like July.

Last I recall it was BLM Toronto making all of the demands while Pride and the Police Union were weighing their options in response to it. To me this was the first time the Police Union made any statement in regards to their own demands. I accept that I may be wrong on this though.

 

[2Smashed4U]

But here's the thing by marching they are not fighting the oppression of the Queer folk from within the police department... Those floats are not speaking out against the oppression of queer folk from within the police department...

There's zero commentary on that from what I have seen. What they are doing is crafting an image of a Pro LGBT Police, it is PR for the very people you are claiming internally oppress them...

In that regard, I do feel that. Coming from that angle, I would be inclined to take BLM side on this, if that's what the issue is.

I guess I do see where they might be coming from that maybe they don't have to necessarily be striving for commentary in the first place to have their place, but in that sense I don't think just a general police float takes precedence over those concerns, in that matter.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Do you think the absence of the police will make it safer for people?

I feel that the absence of uniforms does make people feel safer, yes.

And to be fair, I don't think cops on a float should necessarily make anyone feel unsafe. I think that's more on the individual in that scenario.

I would be more worried about the police on foot that are actively patrolling these parades than I would some off duty officers on a float.

The logical reaction to seeing what a persons considers a symbol of oppression in a Pride parade is to feel less comfortable.

 

[2Smashed4U]

I feel that the absence of uniforms does make people feel safer, yes.



The logical reaction to seeing what a persons considers a symbol of oppression in a Pride parade is to feel less comfortable.

Okay, I get you there. I just kind of thought you meant any police presence period in that regard, to which I was thinking, it's gonna be unavoidable either way.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Can't blame em for this. If your organisation is not allowed to be there in that capacity, then I'd pull the funding too.

I get there are problems, but this whole situation seems to be handled poorly.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Can't blame em for this. If your organisation is not allowed to be there in that capacity, then I'd pull the funding too.

I get there are problems, but this whole situation seems to be handled poorly.

It's not police funding... they are demanding the city pull funding...

 

[darscot]

I feel that the absence of uniforms does make people feel safer, yes.



The logical reaction to seeing what a persons considers a symbol of oppression in a Pride parade is to feel less comfortable.

This seems so flawed and stuck in the past. So much assumption that the people on that float are nothing more than a political stunt. Things will never improve as long as people maintain a negative attitude towards change. People need to be positive and see the float as support. If it comes out that the people one the float is a scam designed by the establishment to infiltrate and oppress the parade then go ahead and ban it. Right now people are passing judgement on its motivation with a completely negative view. I would even be fine if the organizers wanted to interview and approve every officer. Both sides need to come to the table and find a solution because it just makes them both look bad.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's not police funding... they are demanding the city pull funding...

Oh, this isn't coming from it's own budget? Then I scrap my previous statement and apologize for reading too quickly and misunderstanding it. They shouldn't pressure the city, and I take it other government organisations will be represented still.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh, this isn't coming from it's own budget? Then I scrap my previous statement and apologize for reading too quickly and misunderstanding it. They shouldn't pressure the city, and I take it other government organisations will be represented still.

Yeah this is the police union demanding that the city defund Pride because Pride doesn't want to let them have a float.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This seems so flawed and stuck in the past. So much assumption that the people on that float are nothing more than a political stunt. Things will never improve as long as people maintain a negative attitude towards change. People need to be positive and see the float as support. If it comes out that the people one the float is a scam designed by the establishment to infiltrate and oppress the parade then go ahead and ban it. Right now people are passing judgement on its motivation with a completely negative view. I would even be fine if the organizers wanted to interview and approve every officer. Both sides need to come to the table and find a solution because it just makes them both look bad.

Never claimed any motivation, I said that they are representatives of the police, and yet, treating them as police representative is not okay?

 

[Madness]

Black and police relations aren't that great up north either, huh.

There are some issues, but BLM Toronto pretty much co-opts Native/First Nations issues natio wide or Indo-Canadian or other group issues into their own. It is nothing like what is in the US. Toronto is becoming a very Americanized cultural city. So what happens in the US resonates there more than other cities.

Hell in Canada, we even have special courts and sentencing guidelines for first nations offenders due to overrepresentation. The two situations are not comparable at all.

There are less than 3% of canadians that identify as black in Canada, the majority are situated around Montreal and Toronto, and many are recent and more caribbean ie. Haitian, Jamaican, Trinidadian, with smaller groups now from Somalia etc.

 

[IndoAssassin]

What is the purpose of BLM in Canada? Are black people oppressed up here or something?

 

[CazTGG]

What is the purpose of BLM in Canada? Are black people oppressed up here or something?

Racial profiling and police brutality knows no border. Look up a man named "Abdirahman Abdi" and a tradition called "carding" to see how bad things can be (Hint: It involves Blue Lives Matter-esque bracelets).

This seems so flawed and stuck in the past.

Hello kettle.

So much assumption that the people on that float are nothing more than a political stunt.

I can agree with this, at least: The police's presence in Pride is propaganda to make it seem like they're a friendlier body to the LGBTQ+ than they actually are:

Fiction

Reality

Speaking of which...

Things will never improve as long as people maintain a negative attitude towards change.

The relationship between officers and LGBTQ+ community members in Canada can be best described as a series of discriminatory actions on the behalf of the police that continue to stigmatize the LGBTQ+ community and make them feel unsafe or unwanted as a part of Canada's larger community. If they want to improve things, the police are the ones who need to give an inch, not Pride.

People need to be positive and see the float as support. If it comes out that the people one the float is a scam designed by the establishment to infiltrate and oppress the parade then go ahead and ban it.

People should see a group like the police, one that has contributed to the creation of an environment in which they feel neither welcome nor secure, not to mention whose actions lead to Pride being created as a direct response to discriminatory arrests made in the 80s, as supportive of their cause? It's not about the parade being oppressed (whatever that mess of words was meant to convey) so much as the police being symbolic of the very oppression that Pride stood in rebellion to a few decades prior.

Both sides need to come to the table and find a solution because it just makes them both look bad.

Oooh, if I get a "blue lives matter" mention, i'll get a bingo!

 

[Dead Man]

Making groups feel excluded leads to resentment? Who knew?

Edit: It drives me bonkers when pride marches exclude groups. No group has a flawless history, and if the bigoted members of the group see the mutual support shown they may at least keep their bigotry more private. Pride is not the time for division. The rest of the year has plenty of that.

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

I would imagine there are black people in the LGBTQ and they probably don't want an organization that treats them badly to be celebrate at a pride parade.

Nothing is stopping cops from participating, they just can't be in uniform and they don't get a float.

Unless I am misunderstanding the point of the pride parade, shouldn't uniformed officers be able to express their sexuality?

 

[Pandaman]

Pretty ugly look for the Toronto police.

 

[Infinite]

Making groups feel excluded leads to resentment? Who knew?.

Oh please. Police unions are not shit.

Edit: It drives me bonkers when pride marches exclude groups. No group has a flawless history, and if the bigoted members of the group see the mutual support shown they may at least keep their bigotry more private. Pride is not the time for division. The rest of the year has plenty of that.

nonsense. the police is an institution they are not comparable to groups of people

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

What is the purpose of BLM in Canada? Are black people oppressed up here or something?

Carding is a huge issue up here, for example.

 

[CazTGG]

Making groups feel excluded leads to resentment? Who knew?

Edit: It drives me bonkers when pride marches exclude groups. No group has a flawless history, and if the bigoted members of the group see the mutual support shown they may at least keep their bigotry more private. Pride is not the time for division. The rest of the year has plenty of that.

Please read the first post.

 

[Tuck]

That would be an embarassing decision for Toronto council to make.

Support of the LGBT community should not be conditional. It shouldn't have strings attached.

Of course, council is incompetent,s o it could go either way.

 

[darscot]

I'm not going to quote you or got through each point. You are making mass generalization about the country. Posting a 30 year old photo as reality and a modern picture as fiction. I know arguing with ignorance and stupidity on the internet is pointless but I just cant help it sometimes. There is nothing that anyone can say or do that will change your opinion or even cause you to consider other possibilities.