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[Guilty_AI]

Just a reminder that valve literally made drm attractive to the point people moaned at one point if a game didn't use steamworks. Like c'mon, what other company managed to do that?

Tbf, part of it is also their drm is basically water.

 

[Magic Carpet]

The tech industry is pretty big

When I think of great companies in that space, none of them are glorified walled garden digital storefront beneficiaries that merely take a transactional cut. At least Apple also makes great physical products with great software

Steam could go away tomorrow and the industry would be just fine on some other platform

I feel that if Steam went away tomorrow, the ramifications of the gaming meltdown would reverberate around the entire world several dozen times over.
Obi Wan Kenobi would have a headache lightyears away.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

nvm, someone posted below the whole email chain.

 

[SirKicksalot]

The mongs at PC Gamer don't even check the source. Valve did not reply to Sweeney.

 

[Generic]

Tim has a point. His store have better discounts for consumers and lower fees for developers.

Epic is the most pro-consumer and pro-developer company in the market.

 

[Skifi28]

Tim has a point. His store have better discounts for consumers and lower fees for developers.

Epic is the most pro-consumer and pro-developer company in the market.

This is technically true, they just always lose money and if not for Fortnite the store wouldn't be sustainable at all.

 

[Facism]

Lynch al gaib

 

[Facism]

Tim has a point. His store have better discounts for consumers and lower fees for developers.

Epic is the most pro-consumer and pro-developer company in the market.

Yeh love it when a game hits epic exclusively and my options, as a potential customer, drops to 2 stores to purchase, instead of dozens trying to compete for my money for a steam key.

 

[SirKicksalot]

PC Gamer changed "simply replied" to "simply observed" and now to "replied internally". Kek.
People who don't know what CEO and COO are will read it as "Gabe replied". This is why gaming journalism is a joke.

 

[Boneless]

I'd rather pay $50 to get a game on steam than get it free on epic.

 

[SmokedMeat]

At least Apple also makes great physical products with great software

Steam could go away tomorrow and the industry would be just fine on some other platform

No.

 

[Sanepar]

The tech industry is pretty big

When I think of great companies in that space, none of them are glorified walled garden digital storefront beneficiaries that merely take a transactional cut. At least Apple also makes great physical products with great software

Steam could go away tomorrow and the industry would be just fine on some other platform

All platforms can die the only that matters is Steam.

 

[Spukc]

tim sweeney is such a whiny little bitch.
i really do not care about CEO's at all but this dude is suffering from TN-syndrome (twisted nips)

 

[SJRB]

Sweeney is such a pedestrian.

Easily the worst Sweeney.

 

[JimboJones]

consumer friendly does not mean developer friendly

Yeah and this is partly the reason why their store sucks so much they are too busy sucking off developers and making their store a shit experience for consumers.

 

[gothmog]

Big Mad Sweeney

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

It always amuses me when i realize these big multimillionaire CEOs speak to each other the same way most gamers do on gaf, lmao.

 

[Braag]

The tech industry is pretty big

When I think of great companies in that space, none of them are glorified walled garden digital storefront beneficiaries that merely take a transactional cut. At least Apple also makes great physical products with great software

Steam could go away tomorrow and the industry would be just fine on some other platform

It would have a massive effect in gaming considering how big the market is. Even Sony is hastily trying to bring all of it's recent backlog to Steam cause of how great it is.

 

[ProtoByte]

If Steam was so hostile to developers, I wonder why Origin/EA Play, Uplay, the Microsoft Store, or even Epic Games never took off?

That doesn't make any sense. Again, you're conflating "consumer friendliness" with "producer friendliness".

None of those other stores took off because consumers are sticky when it comes to incumbent storefronts and platforms.

All of them were created specifically because publishers believed that Steam was taking too much out of their pies.

Oh wait, maybe Sweeny is completely full of shit and it's not hostile in the slightest, 30% makes sense given how much work Steam puts into its UI and software. From the controller support, VR support, and Linux compatibility work it's very obvious whatever money Valve is getting from the 30% is being put to effective use.
Meanwhile, what the hell has Epic Games done since the store first opened years ago? Last I can recall, they added an "add to cart" button and that's it.

Other than the UI and base functionality of the storefront (congrats, neither are unique or particularly hard), none of that has anything to do with the value of a place on the storefront to the producer.

I don't know what Epic has done with their store or launcher, and I doubt you do either. I'd be shocked if you had it installed.

Developers don’t give two shits about you.

Of course, but we're on a game forum talking about the business of games. These storefront fees are one of the reasons publishers behave the way they do.

 

[Hudo]

No.

I will never not laugh at this.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Fucking amazing

 

[Senua]

The tech industry is pretty big

When I think of great companies in that space, none of them are glorified walled garden digital storefront beneficiaries that merely take a transactional cut. At least Apple also makes great physical products with great software

Steam could go away tomorrow and the industry would be just fine on some other platform

Post of the year so far

 

[Topher]

Tim has a point. His store have better discounts for consumers and lower fees for developers.

Epic is the most pro-consumer and pro-developer company in the market.

Not true. You are not taking into account that you don't have to buy Steam games from Steam. You can go to other store like Fanatical and Green Man Gaming or many others to get discounts from Steam games. That is why I and others are constantly posting price aggregation sites like gg.deals so that folks can find the best price.

And what about being pro-consumer after the sale? EGS support pages are shit. Even the most obscure games on Steam have a community hub where gamers can discuss issues they are having.

For example, Rebel Galaxy Outlaw:

Steam Community :: Rebel Galaxy Outlaw

Rebel Galaxy Outlaw - Out of cash, out of luck, out on the fringe. Juno Markev has a killer to tail, a debt to pay, and more trouble headed her way. Rebel Galaxy Outlaw takes place in a greasy, blue-collar world of outlaws, truckers, cops and thieves. Strap into a variety of spacecraft, settle a...

steamcommunity.com

Now EGS:

https://www.epicgames.com/help/en-US/c-Category_EpicGamesStore/c-ThirdPartyGameAndAppSupport/rebel-galaxy-outlaw-game-support-a000084071

One has a hub. The other gives you an email address.

Bottom line here, is that there are concrete reasons why Steam has such a dedicated following and why EGS is considered a joke among so many in the PC gaming community.

 

[Topher]

The tech industry is pretty big

When I think of great companies in that space, none of them are glorified walled garden digital storefront beneficiaries that merely take a transactional cut. At least Apple also makes great physical products with great software

Steam could go away tomorrow and the industry would be just fine on some other platform

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Too much truth for one post?

Stanning for Steam is the gaming equivalent of claiming Walmart is the best company in existence

Steam is fine. Most progressive tech company though? That’s a big laugh from me, dawg.

 

[Nvzman]

That doesn't make any sense. Again, you're conflating "consumer friendliness" with "producer friendliness".

None of those other stores took off because consumers are sticky when it comes to incumbent storefronts and platforms.

All of them were created specifically because publishers believed that Steam was taking too much out of their pies.


Other than the UI and base functionality of the storefront (congrats, neither are unique or particularly hard), none of that has anything to do with the value of a place on the storefront to the producer.

I don't know what Epic has done with their store or launcher, and I doubt you do either. I'd be shocked if you had it installed.


Of course, but we're on a game forum talking about the business of games. These storefront fees are one of the reasons publishers behave the way they do.

Nothing you said here is correct.
Steam has the dedicated base that it has because of its ecosystem being incredibly robust and feature-dense that no other store front has. You act like anyone would WANT to willingly migrate from Steam, when does any other store have the features Steam has that people use on a daily basis? No? So why the fuck should consumers not be sticky about it?
My point is that Steam is not "hostile to developers" just because it has a 30% cut. They actually have clearly used that cut to improve the infrastructure, which in turn actually helps developers far more than you think. For example, Steam's own controller input wrapper saves developers from having to implement both Xinput and Dinput support, as Steam can handle it itself. Same thing for no longer needing native Linux ports, which has become big in itself thanks to the Steam Deck. Some games have seen huge, immense amounts of purchases (see: Black Ops 3 with Zombies mods and Rivals of Aether) long-term just from getting workshop support integrated. All of this saves time, which in term saves money, which as far as I know, EA, Ubisoft, Epic, and Microsoft Store have done absolutely nothing like this. It's not just about the cut, Steam has significantly better infrastructure for developers, especially smaller ones.
But say "OH BUT MUH 30% CUT".
"I don't know what Epic has done with their store or launcher, and I doubt you do either. I'd be shocked if you had it installed."
I have 400+ hours on Fortnite and I bought Tony Hawk 1 + 2 on it day 1. Fuck off. The Epic Games Launcher sucks, Sweeney is a prick, and you don't know what you are talking about. Why did you even bother posting when you clearly don't know anything about this?

 

[Senua]

Stanning for Steam is the gaming equivalent of claiming Walmart is the best company in existence

 

[Topher]

Too much truth for one post?

Stanning for Steam is the gaming equivalent of claiming Walmart is the best company in existence

Steam is fine. Most progressive tech company though? That’s a big laugh from me, dawg.

You lost me at "merely take a transactional cut". And I didn't see the post saying they were the "most progressive tech company". It was "most consumer friendly software outlet", right? You were asked what company was better, but you didn't give a response. I think you should answer that question.

 

[Nvzman]

You lost me at "merely take a transactional cut". And I didn't see the post saying they were the "most progressive tech company". It was "most consumer friendly software outlet", right? You were asked what company was better, but you didn't give a response. I think you should that question.

Don't bother, the dude is either Sweeney's alt or is trolling. It's obvious no one can intentionally be that dense.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

You lost me at "merely take a transactional cut". And I didn't see the post saying they were the "most progressive tech company". It was "most consumer friendly software outlet", right? You were asked what company was better, but you didn't give a response. I think you should that question.

I think consumer friendly encompasses more than just cost or open access.

I want a company that provides genuinely innovative platforms or software.

Valve was a far more interesting company when they still made actual games.

 

[Senua]

Don't bother, the dude is either Sweeney's alt or is trolling. It's obvious no one can intentionally be that dense.

He just seems to be anti most things PC gamers like tbh.

 

[Topher]

Don't bother, the dude is either Sweeney's alt or is trolling. It's obvious no one can intentionally be that dense.

James Sawyer Ford is a good poster. I think he is way off base here though. It's alright to disagree.

I think consumer friendly encompasses more than just cost or open access.

I want a company that provides genuinely innovative platforms or software.

Valve was a far more interesting company when they still made actual games.

Their game output is an entirely different criticism. One that many PC gamers share. That's not what this is about.

 

[FullMetalx117]

To me EGS, Origin, Steam, Amazon at some point, Ubisoft, Xbox Gamepass, etc. are all the same. I’ll go with the cheapest option

I’ve gotten issues launching game on steam, I’ve had issues with Xbox, others. That’s why pc gaming is just a headache…I like it for the enthusiast side pushing power tho

 

[Nvzman]

James Sawyer Ford is a good poster. I think he is way off base here though. It's alright to disagree.

I mean the poster directly turned my post into a personal insult, so fair game to crap on his house, especially when his logic legitimately makes no sense.

 

[HyzerChucker]

Steam pushed the entire industry into DRM-by-default, online-by-default even for single player games, eliminated the secondhand market, and can take anyway anything and everything you've purchased leased from their store for violating arbitrary and capricious rules or for no reason at all. It's evil.

But they support a lot of Linux development, so that's nice.

 

[ProtoByte]

Nothing you said here is correct.
Steam has the dedicated base that it has because of its ecosystem being incredibly robust and feature-dense that no other store front has. You act like anyone would WANT to willingly migrate from Steam, when does any other store have the features Steam has that people use on a daily basis?

I didn't say any of that. I understand why consumers are sticky.

No? So why the fuck should consumers not be sticky about it?
My point is that Steam is not "hostile to developers" just because it has a 30% cut.

It's the 30% cut and the increasing discoverability/competition via lack of curating problem. Sweeney's definitely high horsing it, but again, you have failed to address the simple fact that if everything was hunky dory, EA, Ubisoft and Activision wouldn't have bothered putting in the time and effort to try and build their own storefronts and force users to go there for their games.

They actually have clearly used that cut to improve the infrastructure, which in turn actually helps developers far more than you think. For example, Steam's own controller input wrapper saves developers from having to implement both Xinput and Dinput support, as Steam can handle it itself. Same thing for no longer needing native Linux ports, which has become big in itself thanks to the Steam Deck. Some games have seen huge, immense amounts of purchases (see: Black Ops 3 with Zombies mods and Rivals of Aether) long-term just from getting workshop support integrated. All of this saves time, which in term saves money, which as far as I know, EA, Ubisoft, Epic, and Microsoft Store have done absolutely nothing like this.

Blah blah blah blah. You think Linux support and controller calibration comes to even 10% of a developer's work or revenue considerations when it comes to PC ports? Lol

We get it, Steam is a de facto monopsony and can use that to box out competitors who cant justify spending the money to kit out their stores with semi-significant or fringe accoutrements. That's the whole point of this discussion.

It's not just about the cut, Steam has significantly better infrastructure for developers, especially smaller ones.
But say "OH BUT MUH 30% CUT".
"I don't know what Epic has done with their store or launcher, and I doubt you do either. I'd be shocked if you had it installed."
I have 400+ hours on Fortnite and I bought Tony Hawk 1 + 2 on it day 1. Fuck off. The Epic Games Launcher sucks, Sweeney is a prick, and you don't know what you are talking about. Why did you even bother posting when you clearly don't know anything about this?

You need to chill out, Gabe. This isn't a Fortnite lobby. But consider me shocked.

Steam can do what it wants, but pretending like there's nothing to address or discuss here smacks of fanboyism.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Three words:

30% cut.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Their game output is an entirely different criticism. One that many PC gamers share. That's not what this is about.

I think it is though. It could be the “PC first party” to make their ecosystem more attractive, but they clearly have no need to at this point and it’s easier to just sit back and collect the storefront money

 

[FoxMcChief]

The tech industry is pretty big

When I think of great companies in that space, none of them are glorified walled garden digital storefront beneficiaries that merely take a transactional cut. At least Apple also makes great physical products with great software

Steam could go away tomorrow and the industry would be just fine on some other platform

If Steam collapsed today, PC gaming would take a super, super, super huge hit. Bigger than if Sony left the gaming market, imo.

 

[Nvzman]

I didn't say any of that. I understand why consumers are sticky.


It's the 30% cut and the increasing discoverability/competition via lack of curating problem. Sweeney's definitely high horsing it, but again, you have failed to address the simple fact that if everything was hunky dory, EA, Ubisoft and Activision wouldn't have bothered putting in the time and effort to try and build their own storefronts and force users to go there for their games.


Blah blah blah blah. You think Linux support and controller calibration comes to even 10% of a developer's work or revenue considerations when it comes to PC ports? Lol

We get it, Steam is a de facto monopsony and can use that to box out competitors who cant justify spending the money to kit out their stores with semi-significant or fringe accoutrements. That's the whole point of this discussion.


You need to chill out, Gabe. This isn't a Fortnite lobby. But consider me shocked.

Steam can do what it wants, but pretending like there's nothing to address or discuss here smacks of fanboyism.

Your fundamental misunderstanding is thinking that they made their own service because there's something wrong with Steam's 30%, and not that they just simply want 100% of the money and no cut at all. How come this only became such a "hot" topic when Sweeney started to relentlessly bitch about it? I don't recall any of the other companies complaining, just that they had their own storefronts. Even if Steam only had 15%, they would still do the same thing, because they think they can.

Also, controller support, especially when PlayStation is as popular as it is and therefore a lot of DualSense/DualShock controllers out there, is a far bigger deal than you act like it is.

Also, the fanboy argument doesn't really work, and it doesn't make you look any more right either. Because as a consumer, why should I dislike Steam? Didn't I just list out a ton of consumer-friendly practices only they do?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

If Steam collapsed today, PC gaming would take a super, super, super huge hit. Bigger than if Sony left the gaming market, imo.

You’d have to click a different storefront launcher.

If Walmart collapsed tomorrow I’d go to target, costco, or Amazon

It would be ok as long as there’s be a way to transfer the digital rights

If valve was a premier hardware of software maker, the loss would be more substantial, we’d lose out on their great games

 

[SmokedMeat]

Of course, but we're on a game forum talking about the business of games. These storefront fees are one of the reasons publishers behave the way they do.

Not true. Epic’s had paid timed exclusives that launched in a poor state. They collect money from AMD and Nvidia to feature their game in GPU promotions, that release horribly unoptimized.

How many fake apologies do we see? Developers don’t care, period.

 

[Senua]

Steam pushed the entire industry into DRM-by-default, online-by-default even for single player games, eliminated the secondhand market, and can take anyway anything and everything you've purchased leased from their store for violating arbitrary and capricious rules or for no reason at all. It's evil.

But they support a lot of Linux development, so that's nice.

Man we have some cavemen on this forum. Eliminated what second hand market? Because that was a huge fucking thing in the early 2000s huh? Are you trying to say single player games are always online too?

"it's evil" LOL

 

[Topher]

I think it is though. It could be the “PC first party” to make their ecosystem more attractive, but they clearly have no need to at this point and it’s easier to just sit back and collect the storefront money

Ok....I don't see that as the topic here so moving on....

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

He just seems to be anti most things PC gamers like tbh.

Not true. I’m storefront agnostic.

I don’t care about Steam vs. any of these other storefronts.

If I were on PC I’d purchase wherever it was cheapest or had the least restrictive DRM

I just don’t get the love Valve gets. They are not a very exciting company and have a lot of uncompetitive practices thanks to their moat

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Ok....I don't see that as the topic here so moving on....

See:

Game Dev - Tim Sweeney emailed Gabe Newell calling Valve 'you assholes' over Steam policies, to which Valve's COO simply replied 'you mad bro?'

Just a reminder that valve literally made drm attractive to the point people moaned at one point if a game didn't use steamworks. Like c'mon, what other company managed to do that? Tbf, part of it is also their drm is basically water.

www.neogaf.com

That post sums it up if you don’t agree with what I consider “consumer friendly”

 

[FoxMcChief]

You’d have to click a different storefront launcher.

If Walmart collapsed tomorrow I’d go to target, costco, or Amazon

It would be ok as long as there’s be a way to transfer the digital rights

If valve was a premier hardware of software maker, the loss would be more substantial, we’d lose out on their great games

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Sleepwalker]

I think it is though. It could be the “PC first party” to make their ecosystem more attractive, but they clearly have no need to at this point and it’s easier to just sit back and collect the storefront money

Why should Valve, a small company by headcount be the "PC first party" though? They are not a platform holder, they don't own "PC" but simply are a storefront. They produce hardware in the form of the index and the steam deck. They released their last game (HL: Alyx) the same year Naughty Dog released their last original non remaster game. In fact, they could release 1-2 games per decade and be at the same cadence as most triple A studios.

They are not the equivalent of Sony and MS in the console space. And even if they were, their refund policy and regional pricing makes them far more consumer friendly than the former 2.

 

[SoloCamo]

Not true. I’m storefront agnostic.

I don’t care about Steam vs. any of these other storefronts.

If I were on PC I’d purchase wherever it was cheapest or had the least restrictive DRM

I just don’t get the love Valve gets. They are not a very exciting company and have a lot of uncompetitive practices thanks to their moat

Steam came at a time when the PC industry was a bit of a mess and was far less user friendly. The consolidation and ease of the launcher really made it a lot easier for people to switch to the platform. I wasn't the biggest fan at first (considering I've been pc gaming since the 90s) but if you gamed during the transition you can see what it did for the pc industry.

 

[Topher]

See:

Game Dev - Tim Sweeney emailed Gabe Newell calling Valve 'you assholes' over Steam policies, to which Valve's COO simply replied 'you mad bro?'

Just a reminder that valve literally made drm attractive to the point people moaned at one point if a game didn't use steamworks. Like c'mon, what other company managed to do that? Tbf, part of it is also their drm is basically water.

www.neogaf.com

That post sums it up if you don’t agree with what I consider “consumer friendly”

Seriously?