yes the general purpose Asics used in the PS5 decompress kraken algorithm
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The PS5 worked fine with the slowest compatible SSD we could find
MasterCornholio
Member
The SSD doesn't affect the visuals of Ratchet in the PS5s case. The game looks just as good on the slower drive than the faster one. What does change is how fast the data is accessed from the SSD like Mike stated. In his testing he found a 15% deficit in parts where the I/O was stressed.
No idea why you decided to bring the XSS into this conversation since the NVME upgrade is only available on the PS5. With the XSS you have Microsoft's proprietary drive.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Why people give a shit?
Nobody understands what Oodle texture or kraken underground is.
All I know is SSDs are faaassstttt.
ethomaz
Banned
Man lol
"When a game needs data on PS5, it makes a request to the IO system, which loads compressed data from the SSD; that is then handed to the hardware Kraken decoder, which outputs the decompressed data the game wanted to the RAM. As far the game is concerned, they just get their decompressed data, but with higher throughput. On other platforms, Kraken can be run in software, getting the same compression gains but using CPU time to decode. When using software Kraken, you would first load the compressed data, then when that IO completes perform decompression on the CPU."
"PS5 is the only system with a hardware Kraken decoder, and the only platform with platform-wide license to Oodle Texture so that every game can use it. In theory PC SSD's will keep getting faster, but you would need several CPU cores running software Kraken to match the decompressed bandwidth of the PS5 hardware Kraken. Even then, a typical game on the PC won't be able to achieve that IO speed because of other bottlenecks; once you're going that fast lots of other things in the system software can become problems, you have to address it all through the software."
How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5
The Sony PS5 will have the fastest data loading ever available in a mass market consumer device, and we think it may be even better than yo...
cbloomrants.blogspot.com
There is a hardware specialized Kraken decoder between SSD and RAM on PS5.
PS5 has others hardware descompressor units but one of them is specialized in Kraken.
Software Kraken don't... it needs to load the data to RAM and after decompress it with the CPU or other processor.
PS5 doesn't load the data to the RAM to decompress it... it loads already decompressed by the hardware Kraken unit.
BTW Oodle Texture doesn't use the Kraken Decoder unit.
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Red_Driver85
Member
Not really "very fast", but fast enough.
MasterCornholio
Member
Oodles Textures and Kraken are compression formats. And in the PS5s case it can dramatically decrease the install size of a game. And also the patch sizes as well.
Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5
Kraken VS ZLIB: According to the official graph by RAD Game Tools, Kraken has 29% higher compression ratio over ZLIB (used in PS4 and other platforms), and does it 3-5x faster (doesn't really concern us as gamers, only good for devs). Both Kraken and ZLIB are lossless compressions, meaning data...
The NVME that you install to the PS5 had nothing to do with Kraken or Oodles Textures. It's the I/O complex that contains the decompressor for those formats. Kraken and Oodles Textures will work with any NVME that you install to the device.
There is a lot of information out there on Kraken and Oodles Textures. It's up to you if you want to understand it.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
You only have to compare load times on resi 8 to see that the PS5 is doing something right.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Oodles Textures and Kraken are compression formats. And in the PS5s case it can dramatically decrease the install size of a game. And also the patch sizes as well.
Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5
Kraken VS ZLIB: According to the official graph by RAD Game Tools, Kraken has 29% higher compression ratio over ZLIB (used in PS4 and other platforms), and does it 3-5x faster (doesn't really concern us as gamers, only good for devs). Both Kraken and ZLIB are lossless compressions, meaning data...www.neogaf.com
The NVME that you install to the PS5 had nothing to do with Kraken or Oodles Textures. It's the I/O complex that contains the decompressor for those formats. Kraken and Oodles Textures will work with any NVME that you install to the device.
There is a lot of information out there on Kraken and Oodles Textures. It's up to you if you want to understand it.
Block diagrams.
To show how things work under the hood in modern games.
Jesus.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
again as this gen goes on and what Xbox has under the hood could see a huge advantage when more taxing games happen, its easy to say. Who knows the PS5 SSD may never be fully used as we think it will
only time will tell as to what may happen, we do know that the PS5 has the better SSD and the Xbox has the better graphical grunt in specs, if we ever see any of this pushing past what the other console is capable of we dont know as of yet
MasterCornholio
Member
Man lol
"When a game needs data on PS5, it makes a request to the IO system, which loads compressed data from the SSD; that is then handed to the hardware Kraken decoder, which outputs the decompressed data the game wanted to the RAM. As far the game is concerned, they just get their decompressed data, but with higher throughput. On other platforms, Kraken can be run in software, getting the same compression gains but using CPU time to decode. When using software Kraken, you would first load the compressed data, then when that IO completes perform decompression on the CPU."
"PS5 is the only system with a hardware Kraken decoder, and the only platform with platform-wide license to Oodle Texture so that every game can use it. In theory PC SSD's will keep getting faster, but you would need several CPU cores running software Kraken to match the decompressed bandwidth of the PS5 hardware Kraken. Even then, a typical game on the PC won't be able to achieve that IO speed because of other bottlenecks; once you're going that fast lots of other things in the system software can become problems, you have to address it all through the software."
How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5
The Sony PS5 will have the fastest data loading ever available in a mass market consumer device, and we think it may be even better than yo...
There is a hardware specialized Kraken decoder between SSD and RAM on PS5.
PS5 has others hardware descompressor units but one of them is specialized in Kraken.
Software Kraken don't... it needs to load the data to RAM and after decompress it with the CPU or other processor.
PS5 doesn't load the data to the RAM to decompress it... it loads already decompressed by the hardware Kraken unit.
BTW Oodle Texture doesn't use the Kraken Decoder unit.
That's extremely helpful. It definitely answered some of my questions.
Thank you for that.
I was wondering what would happen if you try to use Kraken on other platforms. Initially thought you could do it with the Series decompressor but that turned out being wrong. You would have to do it via software with the aid of the CPU. That's probably a performance hit that most developers are not willing to take.
Topher
Gold Member
Agree, we don't know that XSX will graphically outpace PS5 in any noticeable way and we don't know that about PS5's SSD either. Right now....it is all just on paper.
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MasterCornholio
Member
It's not my issue that you're not really interested in the tech.
vaibhavpisal
Member
I am interested in tech.
But SSD working is above my pay grade.
All I will manage is rudimentary stuff.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Exactly and what we do know so far is that the Xbox generally is ahead in resolution were the ps5 has a couple of fps ahead but we now also know that a slower SSD can work in the ps5 and not really have any difference in games in terms of texture streaming and that the game may take a second longer to load
MasterCornholio
Member
I think a huge advantage is just wishful thinking due to how close the systems are. If the PS5 was on par with the XSS I would agree with you. But it wasn't built to compete with a low end next gen console. It was always designed to be a high end one.
ethomaz
Banned
The biggest issue is probably the decompression speed won't be fast enough to be used in real time render... so you can use it for slow decompress and store in the RAM but that limit the amount of the RAM to use in the games.
PS5 Kraken unit decompress in real time and so it won't need RAM to make the decompress works... the data already reaches the RAM decompressed and so it can be used and throw to trash after releasing the RAM to others things.
BTW Sony and AMD said the Kraken Decode unit in PS5 has similar performance to 9 Zen2 cores.
So to have the same decompression speed using the CPU on these consoles you will need 9 cores working just for that to finish in the same time as PS5 Kraken Decode does... it is basically the using the full CPU just to that task.
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MasterCornholio
Member
All you have to do is read what's posted about it. There's plenty of information from Sony and RAD on the subject.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Again its the same with the SSD its better in the ps5 but not huge over Xbox, we will see if there is much of an advantage going forward
Topher
Gold Member
And we know these things because folks like DF tell us. If I have to have these guys tell me what I can't tell on my own then it doesn't matter anyway.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
One thing you would know is if you bought a slower SSD and tried it and it worked still, as for DF your 100% right
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
1) We don't know the Sony drive's write speed.
2) There were actual reports of Sony's drive production method being inexpensive and sorry none of what you said disproves that
01011001
Banned
it doesn't matter but it is interesting if you are into that stuff. just like it doesn't really matter how fast a new Ferrari goes from 0 to 100, but it's interesting for people who are into cars.
3liteDragon
Member
Someone correct me on this, if you get a drive as fast the internal SSD (5.5GB/s) or a drive like the WD_Black SN850 with a 7GB/s read speed, you’re pretty much settled for the entire gen right?Man lol
"When a game needs data on PS5, it makes a request to the IO system, which loads compressed data from the SSD; that is then handed to the hardware Kraken decoder, which outputs the decompressed data the game wanted to the RAM. As far the game is concerned, they just get their decompressed data, but with higher throughput. On other platforms, Kraken can be run in software, getting the same compression gains but using CPU time to decode. When using software Kraken, you would first load the compressed data, then when that IO completes perform decompression on the CPU."
"PS5 is the only system with a hardware Kraken decoder, and the only platform with platform-wide license to Oodle Texture so that every game can use it. In theory PC SSD's will keep getting faster, but you would need several CPU cores running software Kraken to match the decompressed bandwidth of the PS5 hardware Kraken. Even then, a typical game on the PC won't be able to achieve that IO speed because of other bottlenecks; once you're going that fast lots of other things in the system software can become problems, you have to address it all through the software."
How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5
The Sony PS5 will have the fastest data loading ever available in a mass market consumer device, and we think it may be even better than yo...
There is a hardware specialized Kraken decoder between SSD and RAM on PS5.
PS5 has others hardware descompressor units but one of them is specialized in Kraken.
Software Kraken don't... it needs to load the data to RAM and after decompress it with the CPU or other processor.
PS5 doesn't load the data to the RAM to decompress it... it loads already decompressed by the hardware Kraken unit.
BTW Oodle Texture doesn't use the Kraken Decoder unit.
Cause the expansion SSD has access to the Kraken decoder and the rest of the I/O pipeline just like the internal SSD, so the 8-22GB/s read speeds you’re getting is AFTER the data is decompressed by the Kraken decoder. Because of that, all you need for an expansion drive is something that can deliver the uncompressed data to the Kraken decoder AS FAST AS the internal SSD or something a bit faster than that because of the whole 6v2 priority lane issue.
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Hoddi
Member
I don't think it would work otherwise. If the expansion SSD bypassed the decompression block then it would be forced to run on the CPU and performance would plummet.
Recommending 7GB/s is just a way for Sony to ensure that you don't cheap out with a slower drive.
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Arioco
Member
Every comparison I've seen show that using a 7000 MB/s SDD on the PS5 makes games load faster than using PS5's internal storage, which proves than even its super fast SDD is the bottleneck in PS5's I/O system and it's capable of taking advantage of even higher speeds.
I guess it's the same the other way around: if you use a slower SDD than PS5's internal storage games and asset streaming will work a bit slower, as Insomniac said and you'd expect.
I guess it's the same the other way around: if you use a slower SDD than PS5's internal storage games and asset streaming will work a bit slower, as Insomniac said and you'd expect.
I'm annoyed that Jim's policy changes and step backwards into hdd era PC and PS4 cross-development retroactively make Mark Cerny of all people look like a goof. I want games pushing the system and making use of all its unique benefits, and the higher speed SSD expansions to actually be a necessity.
I'm looking around and coming to the conclusion that Layden and Cerny had one vision for PS5, and Hulst and Ryan undermined it to maximise profits selling to a wider audience which ultimately serves to devalue PS5 itself.
I'm looking around and coming to the conclusion that Layden and Cerny had one vision for PS5, and Hulst and Ryan undermined it to maximise profits selling to a wider audience which ultimately serves to devalue PS5 itself.
MasterCornholio
Member
You know every PS5 comes with a 5.5GB/s drive right?
Riky
$MSFT
There won't be, Microsoft just attacked the same issue in a different way with hardware support for Sampler Feedback Streaming, Intel just did a presentation on it and it gives up to three times the performance.
It's going to be a game changer for Xbox consoles.
MasterCornholio
Member
So when's the Series I/O going to surpass the PS5s?
Riky
$MSFT
It doesn't need to, instead of moving lots of data very quickly SFS means you just move a lot less data for the same result, it's fundamental part of VA.
MasterCornholio
Member
Sounds like what the PS5 is doing.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Yeah, both systems have very similar ways of achieving similar end results (including limiting how much data you need to transfer) at different speed. We are still at the point where some are trying to suggest a brain vs brawn battle where one side is super efficient and the other side is just brute forcing things
.What I have got to give MS props to is that their solution seems to require less effort by devs to see a speed up while Sony ones requires native ports and a bit more effort to get results in more cases.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Three times the performance against what baseline or edge case? Still the same argument and way of handling repeated ad nauseam. Then again you are free to show that 3x the performance is against a similarly optimised demo using PS5’s PRT backed texture streaming systems.
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Riky
$MSFT
Against the software solution for the same process, that's why full hardware support just like has been proven for Tier 2 VRS will be so important.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Interesting threads btw:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
PRT is built in the HW what are you talking about? You are pulling your 3x efficiency multiplier out of thin air again and again btw. You are trying to suggest virtual texturing solutions on PS5 or with systems not using PRT+ (oops I mean SFS) are 3x less efficient and thus over fetch or waste fully fetch 3x the data as SFS based solutions in the general case without supporting data (MS themselves are not claiming it either…
).The “SSD speed gap is not important” and “Ok so even if it were we have this ace in the hole that boost efficiency 3x over them so we still win”. There is a weird obsession with having to win every benchmark even by making things up when trying to belittle such benchmark does not stick.
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Riky
$MSFT
Intel and AMD "made it up"
MasterCornholio
Member
Yeah, both systems have very similar ways of achieving similar end results (including limiting how much data you need to transfer) at different speed. We are still at the point where some are trying to suggest a brain vs brawn battle where one side is super efficient and the other side is just brute forcing things
What I have got to give MS props to is that their solution seems to require less effort by devs to see a speed up while Sony ones requires native ports and a bit more effort to get results in more cases.
I wouldn't call Sony's a "brute force approach". They did a lot to eliminate bottlenecks to make the I/O efficient. It's not like Sony are being dumb with their I/o.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
No, you areIntel and AMD "made it up"
. Because the belittling the I/O speed delta did not stick as well as you wanted to and you cannot bear not winning every single numeric epeen game apparently.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I would not call it that either, but that is the argument being made to entertain this absurd idea that SFS is helping MS get this 3x efficiency boost over their competition.
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Riky
$MSFT
I didn't "belittle" anything.No, you are
Xbox has a different approach to the same problem, why are you upset by that?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I like their approach, it works wonderfully for BC titles and even for cross generation games. Seems like XVA is a bit easier to gets its potential out than I thought and I am enjoying it. You are taking a statement “SFS can improve efficiency and lower the cost of implementing a good virtual texturing solution” and then stretching it to mean 3x common case boost because it conveniently helps in a numeric e-peen contest
.You are projecting here Riky. First the overalll dance was “speed is not important” (half a second faster loading times who cares?), then “well actually … it still is not but if it were we have this trump card that allows us to have 3x the speed in reality so we still win”. Now we have “oh you think I am wrong, you must be upset and envious”… right
.
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Riky
$MSFT
It hasn't even started yet, we're only just seeing the start of the implementation of Tier 2 VRS which is the easiest but least performance saving hardware supported feature, SFS only went into the GDK in May from what has been reported so I doubt we'll see any games utilising it for a while. When the cross gen period finishes we will see the results clearly.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Keeping on not reading what people type and bam ready for more console war gloating
.Oh I almost did not spot the “more trump cards still hidden you will see” dGPU like remark. No shit both consoles are not tapped out.
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Riky
$MSFT
Keeping on not reading what people type and bam ready for more console war gloating
You are in fact the one "belittling" facts, claiming it works well for BC and cross gen games in your post above when you know full well not one of those games uses SFS which is what we are discussing, disingenuous as usual.
There is no "gloating" , the facts are that Xbox has hardware support for certain performance saving features, people tried to deny it when announced by AMD themselves claiming it was all just DX12U naming but as we've seen with Tier 2 VRS it turned out to be exactly what AMD said it was.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I like how you are getting hot and bothered about this and going for more “trump card list warring”. You are just seeing red like a raging bull finding backhanded compliments when I was actually giving praise.
Engineering wise the outcome matters. If games, without having to receive extensive reworks or proper native versions or even better for BC titles no change to the original game at all, are non trivially improved by the Xbox I/O solution (the XVA) and it is even occurring more often than I see it on the other side for similar scenarios I call it out as good engineering… and you see that as me belittling it?!?
The issue is with you Riky, console war blindfolds sorry.
—————————
Oh on the “disingenuous argument as SFS has not been used yet so…” bit. I see we are still on the “No games using SFS” (says Riky) and down on the “unless you use SFS you just waste 3x the data/have 3x less efficient asset streaming” as if you had no other ways to implement efficient virtual texturing / asset streaming (PRT does not exist apparently).
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Riky
$MSFT
I don't know why you're bringing up BC and cross gen games again, we're talking about a roadmap to next gen games and what approach the two companies have to the same issue.
The fact old games work better than ever on new hardware is hardly revolutionary but it's welcome.
MS obviously didn't feel the need to have a faster SSD as the XVA is more than just raw speed, that's only a part of it and having the full hardware support for all the performance saving RDNA2 features is just as important.
I'm not "hot and bothered" at all
I just find it hilarious you create an agenda of downplaying features that nobody said by doing exactly that yourself.Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I don't know why you're bringing up BC and cross gen games again, we're talking about a roadmap to next gen games and what approach the two companies have to the same issue.
The fact old games work better than ever on new hardware is hardly revolutionary but it's welcome.
MS obviously didn't feel the need to have a faster SSD as the XVA is more than just raw speed, that's only a part of it and having the full hardware support for all the performance saving RDNA2 features is just as important.
I'm not "hot and bothered" at all
Keep going in circles and move from point to point, I agree it is fun for you to think about others wasting their time thinking they are engaging in an actual not disingenuous discussion.
I mentioned BC and cross generation games again as you said my remarks on it belittled XVA hoping by trying to be even clearer you would read it and understand it but
.You are belittling XVA and MS approach to BC under appreciating how difficult it is to improve performance meaningfully without compromising your peak potential and without requiring developers to invest a lot of time in changing their code for you… which is ironically delicious.
We agree that MS could have pushed for an even faster SSD solution and decided not to. They had a good enough solutions and wanted to fight other battles / invest their R&D or console BoM (look at it however way you want) in other parts of the design.
The problem is that you still see the XSX as this unlimited budget design and cannot accept any engineering compromise and anything that might not feel like the PS5 trouncing monster you thought you had been promised.
So there comes the stretching of the SFS advantage and the console war features list war… I noticed now your brought RDNA2 advantages now to the list (next post maybe you can add some bold “full” to it as people may not get one console has RDNA 1.5 apparently
).
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MasterCornholio
Member
I also fell for that with the initial round of rumors. Really though the XSX would make the PS5 look really bad in comparison. Just happy that they are both fantastic systems.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
They indeed are fantastic systems and I feel more unique compared to each other than Xbox One and PS4 actually weirdly enough.
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