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The Official Halo 3 Thread
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
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godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Whats you avtar about? Martin Super Saiyan or what?SpudBud said:
Buttonbasher
Member
No! What's you avtar about!godhandiscen said:
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Vic.Buttonbasher said:
Still cant get this armor permutation though. My love for MP keeps me away from getting the achievements for scores on the missions.
edit: I just detected the spelling mistake. Damn you Fedora and your late alerts.
The Lamonster
Member
Bowser!SpudBud said:
anyone else wonder what's up with beat downs?
seems like even if i smack down someone i was shooting 1st sometimes they live and smack me half a second later killing me instead.
was told that there was some new way that was handled now compared to halo 2. makes it really weird. gotta relearn the beat down.
seems like even if i smack down someone i was shooting 1st sometimes they live and smack me half a second later killing me instead.
was told that there was some new way that was handled now compared to halo 2. makes it really weird. gotta relearn the beat down.
The Lamonster
Member
Can someone explain to me the big deal about melee? Shouldn't the person with less health be the one that dies?? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! :lolStranGER said:
Buttonbasher
Member
Awesome. The music made it:loljet1911 said:
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
Right.Bowen_B said:
One problem here is that in this situation only, a melee might do less damage than it does in every other situation - or it might do no damage at all. Both players should die when they melee at the exact same time - which leads to the second problem, which is that right now, "exact same time" is a very wide window, as you can see in the YouTube video. It's like, half a second. Or maybe even a second. And it should be a lot, lot less.
Bungie probably knew things like this would be discovered via their saved films function. So, throughout all this, we should still be giving Bungie major props for including a feature in their game that opens it up to criticisms that they likely would never have faced otherwise - or at least not faced for many years.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
I do not think it should be changed because it rewards gunplay. Ussually the player with the most health is the one that aimed better. Also, this eliminates the host advantage in meele kills. People always find things to bitch about, and Bungie can only favor the majority. End of story.op_ivy said:
Did you know the host always hits first? Do you want a situation in which whoever wins a meele is based on connectivity rather than skill? Bungie knew this would be discovered, and thats why they did it this way. Else you would be able to see the huge advantage that people with less lag to the host or the host himself have over people with crappier connectivity. If all mp games offered a video feature like this one, then you could see how it is that always these situations are decided on basis of connectivity. If you have played GeOW you would see how bad this is.Bowen_B said:
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
It was done to remove host advantage. Rather than gimping the person fighting the host, they changed the entire system. You can't be that pissed at them for doing what they did - "host advantage" has always been a major complaint among console gamers, and Bungie was just trying to end that complaint. And who knows - the current system in place does remove host advantage - maybe this is the direction that online console games are going - but, in my opinion, the price is too high: as I've said before, I'm of the opinion that melees should always do the same amount of damage, regardless of how much health the other player has. Considering the fact that this does remove host advantage, then maybe this is the way to go - but Halo 3 should not have been the game to make this leap forward, considering that the majority of players have spent the last six years learning to play Halo the other way.StranGER said:
And better aiming is due to quicker reflexes - you see where the player moves and keep your reticule on them. Meleeing first is also about better reflexes - knowing the exact amount of time you've spent shooting, and hitting the melee button as quickly as possible after that critical moment has passed - the moment at which your opponent has same amount of health that your melee does for damage.godhandiscen said:
And my first paragraph covered the host advantage side of it.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Better aiming is not everything that goes during gunplay. Weapon choice, bullet dodging, how you plan your attack, etc etc, are part of the many things that decide which player has more health at the time they decide to meele each other, thus it actually involves a set of skills that cannot be affected by connectivty. Whereas hitting first in a meele is a skill that is almost always affected in basis of connectivity. I doubt a decision like this one was taken overnight or just based on how good it felt to a certain designer. Going by what Bungie has shown, most likely they analized data and set the algorithm in basis of what was fair to the largest group of people.Cocopjojo said:
edit: I think we are arguing for the same case, why did you quote me?
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
:lol We're not arguing for the same side. I understand Bungie's point of view, I just disagree.godhandiscen said:
So, you're saying connectivity has no effect on gunplay? You know that's not true. Also, are you saying that meleeing doesn't require as much skill as gunplay? As someone who's amount of kills with the melee is almost double the amount for the weapon in second-place, I have to disagree. It requires a lot of skill to know how and when to melee. My highest rank is 43, so I'm not a nub (also, far from a pro), but I at least know that melee attacks require quite a bit of skill to perfect as your main method of attack.godhandiscen said:
I don't think it was made overnight, either.godhandiscen said:
The Elite
BOSS
The Lamonster said:
Not always. If I have 23% health and the person I hit has only 24% health - they should die. Just because they have more health than me doesn't mean they could survive a hit with that percentage of health left.
A Melee from the front with full health should take two hits to kill. One to knock the shields out and one to kill. Stealth hits should take one hit.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Cocopjojo said:
1) I am not saying that connectivity does not affect gunplay. I am just saying that it is not largely affected as the the timming for a meele can be.
2) Also, I never said that the skill to land a meele kill didn't required as much skill as gunplay. I just said that gunplay involved a more varied set of skill other than fast reflexes. The fact that it is a varied set doesnt mean that it amounts to more.
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
Well, we can agree to disagree. Like I said, I understand Bungie's side of this. I just... disagree.godhandiscen said:
hotsauceiswack
Banned
Did bungie make an official comment on the meele system?
If so, I think they need to close the hit window by at least 1/3
If so, I think they need to close the hit window by at least 1/3
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
no wai, i am totally cancelling my preorder!!11!urk said:
Nah, it's still awesome. Its flaws are nothing huge. Even though the melee system change affects me at least once a game, it's still nothing that huge. I'm hoping they'll change it back, if enough people voice their opinion about it, but... they probably won't. I'll just have to learn to play with this new system, or not be as good as I used to be. Probably the latter. MP still rocks. SP still rocks. Hard.
They haven't spoken about it that I've seen. Which is interesting. I'm hoping it means they're still taking it all in, possibly considering a change back to the old, host-advantage system.hotsauceiswack said:
I like all of the levels to a degree, sans Crow's Nest and Cortana. Crow's Nest is just generally bland and suffers from some backtracking. Cortana suffers from incredibly poor design and the most annoying enemies in the game. Backtracking my way through the colon of the popcorn monster monstership while whacking on Fungal Giants from WoW and those fucking needle-shooting-catepillar-bastards all to save a character who has done nothing but annoy the shit out of me throughout the game is not a good idea for a level. And yes, that is the longest sentence ever.
But everything else is at least good. The vehicle segments are, unsurprisingly, top notch and some of the most fun I've had with the game. That double Scarab gangbang was epic. Two at once, every man's dream.
But everything else is at least good. The vehicle segments are, unsurprisingly, top notch and some of the most fun I've had with the game. That double Scarab gangbang was epic. Two at once, every man's dream.
Diablohead
Member
I find that due to a little lag I can riddle someone with my AR and as my spartan is like a second into the reloading animation the enemy will suddenly die. If this means it takes like a moment to register all the hits then it's kind of showing that it's pointless of me to run in shooting and go for a melee too quickly otherwise im basicly not hurting him first while he shoots me. It's a bit iffy to explain but the lag management is an odd one.Ramirez said:
*edit* if I was to check some saved films of mine im sure theres some moments where I can whack someone a clear 1/2 a second early but still loose the melee, hearing the sound and everything my end.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Stinkles said:
Is that confirmation or denial?!
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Tieno said:
Stinkles is slippery like an eel.
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
How's about this: you, me, 1v1, no radar. If I can beat you without firing a shot, using only melees, then you guys change it back. If you beat me, then... well, then, you don't change it back.Stinkles said:
Mr Vociferous
Member
What's with people referring to it as a 'meele' system? This isn't some sort of aquatic animal people.
It's pronounced 'MAY-LAY' and spelled 'melee.'
All they need to do is reduce the window for executing a simultaneous melee to 5ms. I think it's at about 8 years right now.
It's pronounced 'MAY-LAY' and spelled 'melee.'
All they need to do is reduce the window for executing a simultaneous melee to 5ms. I think it's at about 8 years right now.
Diablohead
Member
Were it so easy.Raiden said:
Mr Vociferous
Member
Currently, my crew is using the BR55 to prop up the broken leg of the 'golden tripod.' I think the BR-primary, no motion sensor customs are the most fun we've had with Halo 3 yet - on every map, including some of the smaller ones like Guardian. If Bungie patches the melee system, we'll reconsider the AR as primary, but right now it works as a good secondary option.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Mr Vociferous said:
are you playing MLG stylee?
goldenpp72
Member
I figure if I feel the damn vibration and the melee still doesn't connect because I died, that's a problem. I also have that issue with rockets, I shoot it, I feel it, I see it, but because I died it does nothing.
Perhaps if our chums at Microsoft used those XBL subscriptions to prop up some dedicated servers we wouldn't have to worry about changing the melee system to combat host advantage...
Props to those who worked this out though, at least I know why I lose a close melee. I'll just have to break my "early melee" force of habit :lol
Props to those who worked this out though, at least I know why I lose a close melee. I'll just have to break my "early melee" force of habit :lol
Halo 3's melee system is probably the best option available given the reality of network latency.op_ivy said:
I just wish the melee's weren't so powerful to begin with.
I guess I should freeze frame some of my films when this happens, but I swear I'll have the other guy on less health when I melee and I usually die.
Nevertheless, both players should die in the situations shown in that video (where both players health is low enough for a melee to kill them). Or something like: If Health of opponent A & opponent B are within ~20% of eachother, and both melee, they both die.
It would help 'clean up' players who stick to the "go in for a kiss" gameplay. Balance this out a little, even with melee's current power rating.
Mr Vociferous
Member
We use bits and pieces of Bungie's and MLG's settings and as of late, yes, we've been playing with MLG gametypes till we forge our clan's default maps and tinker with default gametypes. We have issue with some of MLG's settings as well, like the removal of equipment which seems ridiculous to us. Some of Bungie's settings are questionable also and thankfully they've given us tools to 'fix' them.McBradders said:
In Halo 2, to really enjoy it, we had to throw out M7 starts and replace them with the BR55. They just didn't work and matchmaking became a joke with that weapon. In Halo 3 we found that not only the melee system issues make fighting at a distance a more reliable approach, but most of Halo 3's maps have long lines of sight which require a ranged semi-auto weapon and not a short-to-mid range automatic rifle. I've learned to like the MA5C, but it's a secondary weapon for me. I played Halo 1 similarly with the M6D up front and grabbing a 5B as secondary.
Here are some options I would consider to fix the melee issues:
1) Dedicated servers would be the best solution, but I'm pretty certain that neither Bungie nor Microsoft are willing to foot the bill.
2) A user interface which allows players to setup their own dedicated servers would be the next acceptable option, and it has performed very well in other games. The Halo community is large enough that fan websites can locally start their own dedicated servers running off of high-bandwidth channels so there are no players who are physically the host and latency is at a minimum. It costs Bungie nothing. It costs Microsoft nothing. All it requires is an option in the UI and an automated map/gametype rotation built in when enough people join.
This idea was either never considered or it was simply discarded because they felt that it wouldn't be feasible. I'd beg to differ, particularly when you're talking about literally millions of players, many with amazing resources to tap into like T1 or T3 connections and it would simply be part of the custom system, not impacting matchmaking at all.
3) If they are unwilling to consider either of those, I would imagine that they would introduce a far shorter window of time in which a melee could be considered simultaneous (even though it's not). It's a slippery slope however, because there's a narrow optimal spot and if you miss it one way, host advantage flourishes and frustrates, if you miss it the other way, everyone has to rely on health-guessing rather than reflex as a combat skill - like they do now.
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
So very well said.Mr Vociferous said:
Stinkles said:
It seems that previously, we only had to deal with latency. Now we have the new and improved timing system and latency. It's still a factor. Strikes are not being counted as simultaneous because it appears a window of opportunity has been built-in via lag.
This also may explain why some players have a problem, while other players do not.
I've been bitten and benefited from the new health-gaged system. It just feels wrong. Frustrating. I feel like the system takes control away from me and I'm killed by a roll of the old twenty-sided rather then by my own failings.
Also, I was not told there would be rubbings. I'm down.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Mr Vociferous said:
Thanks for the great reply.
I'm in agreement that Melee is "broken". The solution works, it's just unfair and I do dislike it, as do you all. However, I don't want to go down the "BR fixes everything" route like in Halo 2. While on some of the larger maps it was awesome, on others it just made them game completely impervious for casual play (of course this is simply my own preference and observation at work here). The BR should be a prized weapon, it should be "fought" for on maps as it does give the holder a great advantage over medium to long distances and can be used to lock down a map very quickly.
As like most, I would like to see the system changed back, I'm not sure after all these years of playing Halo MP I can ween myself off Melee that easily. In Halo 3 I'm having a lot of fun with the Mauler/Donkey Punch combo, rushing an opponent still feels absoloutely exhilarating when you land that punch... it just sucks that a lot of the time it's me it sends flying back in to the abyss.
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Deleted member 21120
Unconfirmed Member
The reason some players have a problem, while others do not, is that some players have played Halo before. And they've learned the timing of "fire until the enemy has x amount of health left, (x being the amount of damage a melee does) then melee."urk said:
Now, it's... fire until the very last moment, but don't forget that at this moment, the amount of damage the melee does will vary, so attack before the battle's over, but not before your opponent attacks, because if you attack first, he'll have more health left, and you'll lose, so attack after he attacks, but still before the battle ends.
I mean, yeah, meleeing requires skill... but it shouldn't be this complicated. They've taken skill and reflex out of the game and replaced it with... I don't know. Something complicated and awkward and... I can't even begin to calculate how I can learn to fight around this new system. And isn't that what matters?
I'm starting to get really annoyed with myself over complaining about this. I mean, things change, right? And like I've said before, I understand Bungie's side. But, I just can't help that feel that a melee system that can have the melee do anywhere from full-to-no damage based on the other player's health, rather than who attacks first is just wrong. Yes, host advantage is bad - but don't screw up a fundamental mechanic of the game to try and eliminate it.
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