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The Official Halo 3 Thread

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KevinRo said:
cutscenes are awesome.

i wish there were more in game cutscenes to help tell the storyline. the truth is the average halo player has no idea WTF is going on in the halo universe. honestly, if you were to ask a casual halo fan about the storyline of halo they have no idea WTF happens in 1,2, or 3. if you were to stop them in a playthrough of halo3 and asked them what was happening or why they like the game they'll admit to this "i just like shooting things".
...annnd part of the reason for this is because since day one they have relied on short inter-level cutscenes to both carry the plot and impress Sai-kun by showing Master Chief runnin' around, doin' stuff. It's simply too much work for some hurried, in-engine camera-work to bear, and the story's coherence suffers as a result.

(I want to preface this next little rant by saying that I am a big fan of the Halo games and the Halo universe, and often defend the story from non-fans.)

Whether Ghaleon wants to admit it or not, much of Halo's storytelling is downright terrible, with major plot points buried in comm chatter and minor details given the full, glossy cutscene treatment, for no reason other than they will look cool. There is a great deal of technobabble, jargon, obscure (and obscurist) reference to extraneous story material, and at no point is any restraint placed on that adolescent sci-fi/fantasy urge to heap lore on lore on lore at the expense of clarity and good aesthetic judgement.

Most of the characters have, at best two dimensions to them, and most of the character-driven, 'emotional' moments are so forced as to be unbearable. Prime example: Miranda Keyes is a nobody and should never have had any story significance placed on her. That said, there are a few characters that we (or some of us, at least) do care about, and what Bungie (and people shitting on the way Valve tells stories) fail to realise is that these few characters also happen to be the ones who are inextricably tied to the player's game experience.

Sergeant Johnson's story is vaguely affecting because we as players have played through the games with him; in fact, the very reason he has a story role at all is because players instinctively seized on the tough-talking, wise-cracking guy who often fought alongside them in the first game, who contributed something to their playing experience. Cortana is similar, although the emphasis they tried to put on her relationship with 3 was largely wasted (and to even make vague reference to the Orpheus myth is to suggest a resonance and depth that is simply not there). That Bungie quote about her being "every girlfriend we ever had" is still laughable to me: at best, she's a familiar voice with glowing blue tits. They even succeeded in making that familiar voice annoying by having it whine at you every five steps. And then the whining doesn't evey pay off: Cortana turns out to be fine, after all! Stupid player! What were you even worried about?! You don't get to care! Bungie tells you when to care!

There is a reason Alyx Vance is widely loved: because her relationship with Gordon Freeman is also her relationship to whoever happens to be playing Gordon Freeman. Valve understand that this is how attachment to videogame characters can be fostered: by putting them into the player's gameworld, to build a videogame facsimile of an actual relationship over hours of actual play (ever wondered why those Little Sisters are so darned adorable?). Alyx Vance shoots for you when you can't. She solves puzzles. She helps you out of jams, and you help her out of jams. You play catch with her dog, for Chrissake. As a result,
the death of Eli Vance works because not only have we met the man in the game, walked and talked with him, listened to his hopes and fears, but more importantly we know his daughter, have spent time with her over hours of real gameplay... and when we see her break down in that moment, and are unable to comfort her...
It's powerful. By contrast,
the death of Miranda Keyes amounts to Bungie telling us to "pleasepleaseplease care about the fate of the girl from all those cutscenes".
This might work if we had a feature-length movie in which she was played by a real actress. It does not work when she makes a few scattershot appearances between shooting galleries as a fugly clump of grey textures.

More problematically, the pacing and plotting of the Halo games is wretched, and irrevocably weighed down by poor planning and the needless intricacy of its background material. By the time Bungie got to the end of Halo 3 and started to tie everything off, they were probably terrified that they would have to pull all of the books, comics, ARGs, lunchboxes, and, oh yes, games, through the eye of the needle at once, all the while retconning furiously and on the fly to satisfy a legion of devout fans who are, well, insatiable. They just about pull it off. But KevinRo is right to say that the plot by then confuses or leaves cold the 'average player'. Frankly, it deserves to. It takes multiple plays of the games, pretty tedious extracurricular reading, and a desire to actually discover more about the world, to piece Humpty Dumpty back together again. Is it worth so? I think for the most part it is, but then I'm an oddity.

I won't bother addressing the terminals, because I think this is an area Bungie actually did very well with (albeit borrowing more from the methods of some sort of fragmented, po-mo literature than any distinctly gamelike methods of storytelling, and again the piecing-together of the metanarrative requires great investment and dedication on the part of the likes of Vociferous to be made coherent for the rest of us). But I will say that when the greater scope and themes of your story (The Fall? The insidious evil within [be it blind faith, hubris, or the machinations of the Flood]? The redemption/return of Man?) are buried in narrative vending machines off the main path, and the ugly mechanics of getting the in-game plot from A to B are pushed right in the players' faces... your priorities are fucking backwards, dudes.

But to adopt an urkism, I could dong on Halo's storytelling all day long, and I'd still come out loving the games afterwards. It's low-hanging fruit, after all, and nowhere near the worst offender out there (don't get me started on Metal Gear, or just about any JRPG). It just pains me greatly to hear people trash the efforts of games which I think are far more evolved and advanced in how they think about, and enact, their stories. Because I care about where this medium is going, and I think those games which are trying to find gamelike/interactive/'ludic' ways of telling tales (Bioshock, Braid, Portal, and to a lesser extent Half-Life 2 and its Episodes) are those that should matter more right now, and the ones we should be rewarding with acclaim and hard cash.
 
Shake Appeal said:
...annnd part of the reason for this is because since day one they have relied on short inter-level cutscenes to both carry the plot and impress Sai-kun by showing Master Chief runnin' around, doin' stuff.


uhmmm wall of text!

halo 4:
master chief: doin' thangs.
 
System Shock 1 & 2 had great stuff where the location you found audio logs provided a ton of flavour while the audio log itself provided the nuts and bolts. But yeah, the point of the System Shock series was the atmosphere and story, with some FPS action, while Halo is awesome FPS action, with some story. Not to say one is better than another, but they stress different things in the delivery. And I'm pretty sure the market is big enough for both approaches.
 
holy shit shake appeal. i pretty much agree with everything you say, except I don't really bum bioshock and portal as much as you do.

edit: also lol at hbo used ot look quite pleasant now looks pretty generic.
 
Well, as much as I love Bioshock for some of the things it does, I think it's a comprehensive failure in many respects, and it makes me much more angry than Halo ever does, if only because I hold it to a higher standard, and so it falls farther short.

Dax01 says the most annoying thing is the repetitious hacking minigame. I'd probably put that on a list of things that irritate me about Bioshock, too, but it would be somewhere at the bottom, far below the likes of "THERE ARE NO MEANINGFUL FUCKING CHOICES IN THIS GAME, STOP PRETENDING THERE ARE" and "THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY THEMATICALLY INCONSISTENT, DID LEVINE JUST HAND THIS OVER TO HIS KID TO FINISH?!"

But then, I'm the one who actually cares about writing in games. More fool me.
 
Shake Appeal said:
Dax01 says the most annoying thing is the repetitious hacking minigame. I'd probably put that on a list of things that irritate me about Bioshock, too, but it would be somewhere at the bottom, far below the likes of "THERE ARE NO MEANINGFUL FUCKING CHOICES IN THIS GAME, STOP PRETENDING THERE ARE" and "THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY THEMATICALLY INCONSISTENT, DID LEVINE JUST HAND THIS OVER TO HIS KID TO FINISH?!"

But then, I'm the one who actually cares about writing in games. More fool me.
I was speaking only from a gameplay perspective. I care about stories in games, too, and the whole moral choice of harvesting the little sisters or save them became redundant and it was stupid how it had no real impact on the game (overall). Though, I could never bring myself to harvest the little things.

And with that said, I begin reading your two long posts.
 
Shake Appeal said:
Well, as much as I love Bioshock for some of the things it does, I think it's a comprehensive failure in many repsects, and it makes me much more angry than Halo ever does, if only because I hold it to a higher standard, and so it falls farther short.

Dax01 says the most annoying thing is the repetitious hacking minigame. I'd probably put that on a list of things that irritate me about Bioshock, too, but it would be somewhere at the bottom, far below the likes of "THERE ARE NO MEANINGFUL FUCKING CHOICES IN THIS GAME, STOP PRETENDING THERE ARE" and "THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY THEMATICALLY INCONSISTENT, DID LEVINE JUST HAND THIS OVER TO HIS KID TO FINISH?!"

But then, I'm the one who actually cares about writing in games. More fool me.

Oh yeah, Bioshock was great up to the big reveal
zomg Atlas/Fontaine. But after effectively making fun of me for going through the motions of A --> B --> C like some brain dead sheep (which was totally awesome). Then they go and RUIN IT ALL by NOT GIVING ME A CHOICE in the last bit of the game.
Fuck, I was so angry. So close yet so far. God that bit with Andrew Ryan was so great too.

Man I hyped that game up so much to my friends for so long due to my System Shock 1 & 2 love affair. My word to a little bit of a hit on that mistake. Fuck I even read Atlas Shrugged before playing it. On an aside what they say is true, reading an Ayn Rand book does turn you into an asshole for a few weeks.

... Uh I should really leave this alone I guess. I'm not really helping this get on topic am I.
 
for me bioshock's best story telling was the impact of the setting.
and even in that regard, the last section was a total let-down. The game peaked at "take the ears..... OFF!"
 
kylej said:
What's your favorite part, the aliens or the space marines?
hmm are we still talking about the games or the actual universe? because the books are not just about marines and aliens. Unfortunately the games do not even touch basis on what the books state, and Master Cheif isnt the only thing that matters in them either. However even with all that said, its still better than all the other generic bullshit we get these days. Metal Gear was once good, but after 4.. that shit doesnt even belong anywhere near the top of gaming stories list. Once again let me clear it up.. I am talking about the actual "universe" of said franchise, not the story we see in the games; in terms of game stories.. Halo (1,2,3) ranks pretty low for me.
 
Nutter said:
hmm are we still talking about the games or the actual universe? because the books are not just about marines and aliens. Unfortunately the games do not even touch basis on what the books state, and Master Cheif isnt the only thing that matters in them either. However even with all that said, its still better than all the other generic bullshit we get these days. Metal Gear was once good, but after 4.. that shit doesnt even belong anywhere near the top of gaming stories list. Once again let me clear it up.. I am talking about the actual "universe" of said franchise, not the story we see in the games; in terms of game stories.. Halo (1,2,3) ranks pretty low for me.

agreed.
EDIT:Well actually I reread that and only sort of agree.
I think MGS is batshit insane, and while it may pioneer the cinematic experience, the actual narrative is pretty ridiculous to me.

I think the universe of the halo series is one of my favorites, maybe my favorite one of all gaming... but the actual narrative the game's follow is pretty poorly told. I wasn't even sure what happened in one of the last cutscenese in Halo 3
when the ship was cut in half as it races away from the ark
. The scene was just poorly scripted and hard to follow the action, and you could say that about a few other moments throughout. And I pretty much agree with Shake in his write-up.. the sad truth is, few games are any better. The reality is story-telling, voice-acting, dialogue, and scripts in games is really just BAD across the board. Sure there are a few rare gems among the thousands of stinkers, but if you play games for storys then you need to start reading books and watching better movies, because you've basically just pointed out how bad your tastes are.
 
Chinner said:
All hail Mass Effect.

cough*people=information kiosks and reused-to-fuck environments*cough.

Cannot fucking wait for the second one.

Personally, I know one of the reasons I liked Halo:CE was that Master chief was a pretty cool dood, he kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything.

By lowering the focus on him for Halo 2, I personally didn't enjoy the story as much, at least, for the first few playthroughs. I now appreciate the expansion of the universe, but that's one of the reasons why so many people hated on the arbiter. In 3, this was attempted to be fixed...but having chief go after Cortana for the 3rd game set a whole different scheme gameplay-wise. You were no longer going through alien relics or unexplored territory aided by Cortana, instead, you're 'forced' into having the whole plot revolve around finding her, rather than kicking ass and taking covenant and flood names.
 
Dirtbag said:
agreed.
EDIT:Well actually I reread that and only sort of agree.
I think MGS is batshit insane, and while it may pioneer the cinematic experience, the actual narrative is pretty ridiculous to me.

I think the universe of the halo series is one of my favorites, maybe my favorite one of all gaming... but the actual narrative the game's follow is pretty poorly told. I wasn't even sure what happened in one of the last cutscenese in Halo 3
when the ship was cut in half as it races away from the ark
. The scene was just poorly scripted and hard to follow the action, and you could say that about a few other moments throughout. And I pretty much agree with Shake in his write-up.. the sad truth is, few games are any better. The reality is story-telling, voice-acting, dialogue, and scripts in games is really just BAD across the board. Sure there are a few rare gems among the thousands of stinkers, but if you play games for storys then you need to start reading books and watching better movies, because you've basically just pointed out how bad your tastes are.
That is basically what i said ! :p
I think we may differ on the orginal MGS (1) story. I thought it was well done, opened up enough plot points for the player to think and also wrapped up the story it was currently trying to get across, after that though the whole DNA bullshit and nanomachines.. el oh el.
 
Nutter said:
That is basically what i said ! :p
I think we may differ on the orginal MGS (1) story. I thought it was well done, opened up enough plot points for the player to think and also wrapped up the story it was currently trying to get across, after that though the whole DNA bullshit and nanomachines.. el oh el.

Yeah I just had to put things in my own words to work out my opinion.
 
Dirtbag said:
agreed.
but if you play games for storys then you need to start reading books and watching better movies, because you've basically just pointed out how bad your tastes are.
I would suspect that I read more and better books than all but maybe a handful of people, if that, on the whole of NeoGAF. That's not juices-level bragging; it's one of the very few things I am confident enough about to just throw out there blindly. And I still play games in part for their stories (and all my favourite games have ambitious and complex stories to tell, whatever their success in that regard), and I still want for them to improve and mature, because I love games, and I want to believe that they can and will evolve for the better.
 
Metroidvania said:
cough*people=information kiosks and reused-to-fuck environments*cough.

Cannot fucking wait for the second one.

Personally, I know one of the reasons I liked Halo:CE was that Master chief was a pretty cool dood, he kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything.

By lowering the focus on him for Halo 2, I personally didn't enjoy the story as much, at least, for the first few playthroughs. I now appreciate the expansion of the universe, but that's one of the reasons why so many people hated on the arbiter. In 3, this was attempted to be fixed...but having chief go after Cortana for the 3rd game set a whole different scheme gameplay-wise. You were no longer going through alien relics or unexplored territory aided by Cortana, instead, you're 'forced' into having the whole plot revolve around finding her, rather than kicking ass and taking covenant and flood names.
put me in the category of gameplay > story

while i will enjoy a game with great gameplay and decent story. (read half-life)
if the gameplay is bad then the story can only hold me for so long. i struggled to get through bioshock the last part of the game completely fell apart for me.
on the other hand if the gameplay is fun and the story sucks i will still play the hell out of a game. i just beat rainbow six 2 and i can honestly say i have no idea what happened in the story but im going to go back and beat it co-op on the hard difficulty because the game was hella fun.
 
Of course the Devs themselves are to blame as well, before release they will be all over the media stating how much story their game has, how much emotion it has, and how they hired a proper person to write the story.

And we get Gears of War 2. :lol
 
Shake Appeal said:
I would suspect that I read more and better books than all but maybe a handful of people, if that, on the whole of NeoGAF. That's not juices-level bragging; it's one of the very few things I am confident enough about to just throw out there blindly. And I still play games in part for their stories (and all my favourite games have ambitious and complex stories to tell, whatever their success in that regard), and I still want for them to improve and mature, because I love games, and I want to believe that they can and will evolve for the better.

I find that even if there is a good story to be told within in a game, it's ruined by the need to dumb it down to a teenage level to hit the target audience, or the poor voice-acting, or the "uncanny valley" effect (or the things you need to alter to keep it a game like enemy variety, constantly changing setting, etc.) The medium/audience itself usually just gets in the way.
 
All this talk about story makes me worry about Halo 4 (if there is such a game). If Microsoft's Halo studio is working on it I hope that they take a fresh new approach to the universe.

Personally, I'd like to see the next proper Halo game do some new things and present a much more solid and focused plot. No extraneous characters, very little cut scenes and a simple plot that anyone could follow. I don't mind a minor detail here or there but it should be just that: minor.

Halo's universe has become as tedious and forgettable to me as Metal Gear Solid's has. I don't care about 7 other planets, or long dead ship commanders, etc. I just want to see the current conflicts resolved and move onto the next main plot. The terminals were great for super hardcore fans but its a complete waste to hide a sub-plot that is more interesting than the actual main story.

I could only see myself caring about the story in another Halo game if it was a tight, focused narrative that consisted a couple of protagonists and antagonists. Especially if it actually makes sense the first time through.
 
Nutter said:
Of course the Devs themselves are to blame as well, before release they will be all over the media stating how much story their game has, how much emotion it has, and how they hired a proper person to write the story.

And we get Gears of War 2. :lol

One thing I noticed, although both Gear 2 and Halo 3's marketing pushed the whole "dramatic story" promise, Bungie themselves were pushing how epic the story was going to be, Epic was promising character growth and development.

I think Halo fared a lot better to what was stated, story wise, from the developers, after the game was released.

Shake Appeal said:
I would suspect that I read more and better books than all but maybe a handful of people, if that, on the whole of NeoGAF.

Hey dude, I read around 100 books a year, yet I would never assume I read more than anyone, but what makes me question you is the small wording of "better". You think my books are inferior to yours? Wise up, the value of a book depends on how much a reader gets out of it. You can't measure it, everyone has their own preferences and tastes.

Unless you read nothing but peer reviewed journals and you are talking about your reading in academic terms regarding their value and superiority of something, just shut up.
 
Although I know its an aprils fool joke I was soooo hoping there really was a playlist with those maps and gametypes up and running. I fired the box up and everything.
 
Blueblur1 said:
I could only see myself caring about the story in another Halo game if it was a tight, focused narrative that consisted a couple of protagonists and antagonists. Especially if it actually makes sense the first time through.

Halo: Dark Planetoid Rising. Chief and Cortana versus new enemies. 2010. BELIEVE.

I've had enough of your snide insinuations.

<3 Jennifer Hale.
 
BakedPigeon said:
Although I know its an aprils fool joke I was soooo hoping there really was a playlist with those maps and gametypes up and running. I fired the box up and everything.

That's up in Favorites now. Get some BUNGLE league training jumping off.
 
Blueblur1 said:
I think Gears delivered with a good plot and an awesome campaign. Halo 3 not so much. Halo 3 is virtually Halo 2.5 really.
I enjoyed Gears2, and the last act was awesome but the ending itself twas disappointing. Thats a problem with most games that devs don't seem to be able to know how to finish of a game when it is at its high. This is one of the reasons why Mass Effect is awesome.
 
Blueblur1 said:
I think Gears delivered with a good plot and an awesome campaign. Halo 3 not so much. Halo 3 is virtually Halo 2.5 really.

:lol wat

I think Halo 3 delivered with an awesome campaign and working
, better, and more advanced
multiplayer.

I think the plot in gears (1 or 2?) was laughable, and the mp is totally broken. The characters were fun enough though.
 
LukeSmith said:
That's up in Favorites now. Get some BUNGLE league training jumping off.

Sweet!!! Queuing it up now so I can learn how to properly set up a pro map in Forge.

Captain Blood said:
I love the three gold bars on the BUNGLE logo lol.

Staff Captains of the world represent! This is the playlist you've been waiting for!

no april fools joke. I'm really a Staff Captain still :lol
 
Dani said:
Hey dude, I read around 100 books a year, yet I would never assume I read more than anyone, but what makes me question you is the small wording of "better". You think my books are inferior to yours? Wise up, the value of a book depends on how much a reader gets out of it. You can't measure it, everyone has their own preferences and tastes.
There's actually a pretty fascinating debate about aesthetics in here that this thread does not deserve to have inflicted on it (my positions would be: the value of a book is inherent and objective, but probably unknowable; you certainly can't measure the value of a book, but you can make genuine and meaningful comparisons; everyone has their own preferences and tastes, but these are not necessarily equal [with a number of important caveats]). It's certainly not my intention to offend anyone; I'm basing this purely on threads and posts I have previously read here about what and how people here read.

And BR beats AR every time.
 
in fact, i am still laughing as i type this...

Shishka totally didn't steal my map

i'm usually the one pulling the April fools jokes and had planned one myself (i had an early morning dentist appointment and Cody Miller beat me to the punch), good to see i inadvertently helped pull one of the better ones

did you read the playlist descriptions?
 
shootemup.jpg
[/IMG]
Nothing beats shooting up corpses.:lol :lol I busted out laughing when I saw that.
 
Deputy Moonman said:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/sponger14/shootemup.jpg
Nothing beats shooting up corpses.:lol :lol I busted out laughing when I saw that.
as did i. awesome stuff, looks.... fun. (imagine that!)
 
Starting now, an all new set of Matchmaking Playlists, dubbed The New Matchmaking Experience™, have been rolled into Halo 3’s Multiplayer lineup and representative content has been dropped into Bungie Favorites.​
:lol :lol :lol
 
Dax01 said:
I remember last April Fools Day there was a face that appeared on the map shown in the pregame lobby.

This time it's SuperIntendent.

ARGH.

Waiting for the university to 'approve' my new MAC address sucks. Big time. I wanna play. :P

would someone mind taking a screencap?
 
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