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The Official Halo 3 Thread

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Had a seriously lucky moment last night.

Setup: you have to remember that I suck at this game. I'll run out into a busy area, get shot at by half a dozen people, and be focused on the one guy I'm trying to kill. Even if I get him, I'm usually immediately taken down by someone else. (Yeah, I know, situational awareness is key. I blame all the glue I huffed as a kid.)

So normally, in an incident that starts like this clip does, I'll be dead approximately 1.5 seconds after the first assassination. The fact that I'm not makes this clip noteworthy.

The other thing that makes it noteworthy is the fact that my strategy of "jesus throw everything I can find in my pockets at this guy, maybe I can stop him" actually WORKS.

Dunno... it made ME laugh. :D

http://files2.bungie.org/amazing_luck.mov
 
LAUGHTREY said:
5vzkaq.jpg



I made a new icon, what do you guys think?

:lol :lol :lol
 
Louis Wu said:
Had a seriously lucky moment last night.

Setup: you have to remember that I suck at this game. I'll run out into a busy area, get shot at by half a dozen people, and be focused on the one guy I'm trying to kill. Even if I get him, I'm usually immediately taken down by someone else. (Yeah, I know, situational awareness is key. I blame all the glue I huffed as a kid.)

So normally, in an incident that starts like this clip does, I'll be dead approximately 1.5 seconds after the first assassination. The fact that I'm not makes this clip noteworthy.

The other thing that makes it noteworthy is the fact that my strategy of "jesus throw everything I can find in my pockets at this guy, maybe I can stop him" actually WORKS.

Dunno... it made ME laugh. :D

http://files2.bungie.org/amazing_luck.mov

Clutch Double Bubble. You're truly a B.U.N.G.L.E. Pro
 
Louis Wu said:
Had a seriously lucky moment last night.

Setup: you have to remember that I suck at this game. I'll run out into a busy area, get shot at by half a dozen people, and be focused on the one guy I'm trying to kill. Even if I get him, I'm usually immediately taken down by someone else. (Yeah, I know, situational awareness is key. I blame all the glue I huffed as a kid.)
Wu, you and I should team up and make some pathetic attempts at getting the perfection achievement. You don't have to be bad at this game alone, you know.
 
Mr Vociferous said:
The Cortana sketches in Halo 3 are a bit annoying upon multiple play-throughs for the simple fact that you can't skip them -- and maybe someone could make that same argument about the short vignettes, but by in large, the cinematic experience in Halo games is easily traversable because if you're not interested in partaking in the exposition, you can bypass it. Not sure what the concern is here -- especially considering that the Halo story has been told this way from its birth, why would we expect a change?
There's a difference between wishing it would evolve and expecting it to change. I in fact don't think it'll change with ODST. I think Shake and I have clearly stated why we think telling a video game story shouldn't be approached like cinema and literature. It's a different medium and should be treated as such.

It's a shame that a studio who pushes the medium on the gameplay front does such a mediocre job with storytelling.
 
Bungie has used largely the same tools in the Halo games, but took very different approaches to story telling in all three. Each has pros and cons. So I'm less worried about the tool set and more interested in the implementation.

I do not like restricting the narrative to first person, with no cinematics. I've read the argument that it's more immersive, but I find it limiting and actually harder to get absorbed in the game word when I don't have the broader view that cinematics allow. (Bioshock and Half-Life 2 are the two shooters I've played that used the method, and I didn't care for either of them, especially in the story department.)
 
Heh, today reminded me of last year's April Fool's Day. It was pretty good, I tricked a good amount of Halo Wars fans into believing that the Forerunners were going to be a playable race in the game. The whole thing was cemented after ES reposted my fake interview on Halowars.com :lol (although they didn't indicate it was real)

Original fake interview, figured you guys might be amused to read it:

Halo Wars Heaven: So, Forerunners. What really got the ball moving in this direction?
Graeme Devine: In many design meetings, we felt we were missing something in the Halo Wars formula, something both enigmatic and iconic. The Forerunner are a perfect fit for this requirement, and most of the team wanted to give it a shot.


HWH: What kind of base design will the Forerunner feature?
Graeme: As any Halo player knows, Forerunners are all about angular geometry. You also have insets and crazy symbols all over these surfaces, and we'll have all of this in spades. As far as the gameplay of a Foreunner base goes, the whole thing revolves around massive spires and scattered tunnels.


HWH: You say massive spires, but we're curious, just how massive?
Graeme: Easily on par with anything you've seen in Halo 1 through 3, with a few truly massive structures that dwarf any spire or folding bridge. An initial concern was that players would go cross-eyed or something while squinting to try and locate their squad of Sentinels in the presence of these huge buildings, but we're pretty sure players will be able to adapt.


HWH: Speaking of Sentinels, what other Forerunner units have been planned for inclusion?
Graeme: Aside from Sentinels and their various upgrades, we have Enforcers, Monitors, and a large Forerunner tank.


HWH: Monitors, how do they play?
Graeme: Monitors are useful for many things around a Forerunner base, such as activating Sentinel relay tunnels, floating around, and going crazy.

Our Rampancy system plans, while innovative, are controversial with playtesters, some don't like the idea of losing all effective control over containment and general gameplay to some incompetent AI who sports a weird and infuriating laugh. We listen to our playtesters, which is why we'll be fixing the audio files, but it's been difficult to get that demented giggling polished.


HWH: You mentioned containment, are we right to guess the Flood will make an appearance?
Graeme: The addition of the Forerunner race could only mean that the Flood would be a part of the game in some fashion. Not as a playable race, mind you, but as an interesting component in the world.

The Flood is controlled by a set of AI routines the programmers lovingly call "Gravemind". And on any given map, there's a group of wild Flood roaming around and causing general havoc. The Forerunner player's most obvious option against this menacing force is to capture as many specimens of the Flood as they can, and study them to unlock various technologies and upgrades. The thing, though, is that the Forerunner player won't be able to contain them, there's just too many of these parasites scurrying around. So there's one final option that the player can call upon if the need is great.


HWH: Can you build... a Halo?
Graeme: Constructing Halo rings in-game is definitely something we have planned, and these powerful constructs serve two purposes: The first is to attempt to save other players from your own wanton stupidity (containment strat was nerfed, noob), and the second purpose is its replacement of the "Resign" button for Forerunner players.

What we're working hard to do is portray the Forerunners as realistically as possible. Some of the guys here even petitioned for a 100,000 year countdown before the other races could start the match, but that obviously didn't pan out.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Bungie has used largely the same tools in the Halo games, but took very different approaches to story telling in all three. Each has pros and cons. So I'm less worried about the tool set and more interested in the implementation.

I do not like restricting the narrative to first person, with no cinematics. I've read the argument that it's more immersive, but I find it limiting and actually harder to get absorbed in the game word when I don't have the broader view that cinematics allow. (Bioshock and Half-Life 2 are the two shooters I've played that used the method, and I didn't care for either of them, especially in the story department.)
I'd say cinematics are much more constricting, they interrupt flow and completely take you out of character. Given the option of experiencing a set-piece via a cinematic or in FP view, I'd take the latter every single time.

What I love about first person narrative such as Valve's is that it is very powerful, you can completely absorb a character and keep flowing along and receiving story information as you go. When a cinematic pops up, I'm no longer flowing or being involved, I'm just resting the controller on my leg and waiting for myself to "exist again".
 
Botolf said:
I'd say cinematics are much more constricting, they interrupt flow and completely take you out of character. Given the option of experiencing a set-piece via a cinematic or in FP view, I'd take the latter every single time.

What I love about first person narrative such as Valve's is that it is very powerful, you can completely absorb a character and keep flowing along and receiving story information as you go. When a cinematic pops up, I'm no longer flowing or being involved, I'm just resting the controller on my leg and waiting for myself to "exist again".
I think we'll just have a difference of opinion here that won't be reconciled. Some of the best cinematics, in both content and execution, would not be possible when limited to first person. I'm thinking of the arrival at Delta Halo, the creation of the Arbiter, arriving at the Ark....

I though the restriction to first person in Half-Life 2 was a gimmick, and worse it was treated as such. The entire story and Gordon's character felt like one giant inside joke being perpetrated on me; so much nodding and winking about how very clever they were. I spent most of that game wondering what the hell was going on, and the rest of it realizing I no loger cared.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I think we'll just have a difference of opinion here that won't be reconciled. Some of the best cinematics, in both content and execution, would not be possible when limited to first person. I'm thinking of the arrival at Delta Halo, the creation of the Arbiter, arriving at the Ark....
Indeed, and at the same time, there's FP set-pieces that could absolutely not have been pulled off as well in a cinematic. They would have been less.

I would have loved to touchdown on the Ark all in FP, would've been absolutely sick traversing the atmosphere!

I though the restriction to first person in Half-Life 2 was a gimmick, and worse it was treated as such. The entire story and Gordon's character felt like one giant inside joke being perpetrated on me; so much nodding and winking about how very clever they were. I spent most of that game wondering what the hell was going on, and the rest of it realizing I no loger cared.
Gimmick? No, not really, it's just a different approach, and has allowed Valve to absolutely push FPS storytelling forward. Scripted sequences and cinematics are two entirely different approaches, that much is certain, but what should be understood is that Valve's way has certain advantages that Bungie's way absolutely lacks.

Bungie's stance on the issue strikes me as really schizophrenic sometimes, they cite the Master Chief's silence as an aid to players getting into his head, and yet he starts talking at a whim and trades jokes with an AI. With Freeman, I define what this character is, what he's about (whether that be assuming the character or jumping around at inappropriate times like a crazed monkey).
 
Botolf said:
I'd say cinematics are much more constricting, they interrupt flow and completely take you out of character. Given the option of experiencing a set-piece via a cinematic or in FP view, I'd take the latter every single time.

What I love about first person narrative such as Valve's is that it is very powerful, you can completely absorb a character and keep flowing along and receiving story information as you go. When a cinematic pops up, I'm no longer flowing or being involved, I'm just resting the controller on my leg and waiting for myself to "exist again".
I love Half-Life, but the technique used to drive the story in Half-Life 2 in particular (namely, to lock all the doors and not unlock them until Barney or Alyx or Dr. Kleiner or Eli or Colonel Cubbage or whoever the fuck else knows the magic word that lets me get the fuck out of the room finishes speaking), while enthralling and very entertaining at first, now only serves to destroy the replayability of the game for me. Entire levels, like Red Letter Day, have atmosphere and gameplay mechanics that I love and want to experience again, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit in Kleiner's lab for 20 minutes before I get to the game part again. That, to me, is so much more of an immersion-breaker on second and third and nth playthroughs to me than a cutscene. To be fair, I rank replayability extremely high on my list of positives in a game, because I frankly don't have the money to spend on entertainment so I'd like to be able to get the most enjoyment out of everything I buy.

I really enjoy the cutscenes in the Halo series, primarily because they let me witness something that I cannot see from the first person, the grander scope of things that are impacting more than just "hey that gun whose glowy spot you shot at blew up, k?" is what I'm really interested in. I loved Halo 2's intro, because it was a meaty look at something we had never had the chance to delve into in the universe, and I would be ecstatic if we got more of that in ODST They might not be for everyone and I completely understand that. Its just that, to me, the cinematic aspect of the game is enjoyable in its own right, and I wouldn't want it to change, other than to be expanded even more (Additionally, it is completely skippable, so I don't have to hit E to grab crates and see how big of a tower I can make in the corner while people finish their conversations on subsequent playthroughs.) I think Valve is getting better about it though, or rather moving it a bit closer to my preferences, with each episode. Near the beginning of Episode 2 I don't think you have to listen to Alyx talk to Eli, because the rear door is unlocked from the get-go (if I remember correctly), and I really appreciated it. However, I don't think that they should necessarily change their style, because they do it extremely well, but I think that if they found a way to make it a bit less intrusive on the "kill stuff now" time that I enjoy so very much, it could only make for a better experience.
 
Botolf said:
Uuuuugh, who the hell was that hogging up half the review? He's a very poor fast-talker.

The Escapist also has a bit called Unskippable Cutscenes. Yahtzee went on Unskippable this week, and whatever that guys name went on Zero Punctuation. Sorta to drum up some awareness of both.

And you unhappy Halo players out there are gonna probably have to stop playing before stuff gets addressed. Complaining gets fuck all, but if they notice their numbers dropping they might do something. Or at least don't buy the maps.
 
Havok said:
I love Half-Life, but the technique used to drive the story in Half-Life 2 in particular (namely, to lock all the doors and not unlock them until Barney or Alyx or Dr. Kleiner or Eli or Colonel Cubbage or whoever the fuck else knows the magic word that lets me get the fuck out of the room finishes speaking), while enthralling and very entertaining at first, now only serves to destroy the replayability of the game for me. Entire levels, like Red Letter Day, have atmosphere and gameplay mechanics that I love and want to experience again, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit in Kleiner's lab for 20 minutes before I get to the game part again. That, to me, is so much more of an immersion-breaker on second and third and nth playthroughs to me than a cutscene. To be fair, I rank replayability extremely high on my list of positives in a game, because I frankly don't have the money to spend on entertainment so I'd like to be able to get the most enjoyment out of everything I buy.
I don't mind replaying these bits because of a few reasons:

- The quality of the writing, voice acting, and technology behind these little scenes
- There's many things to look around at in the environment while all this goes on
- The settings are just drenched in atmosphere

Discounting all that because of a locked door seems really odd to me. I kid you not, I missed so many cues and story tid-bits in the Halo games because Bungie failed to give me any context or an attempt at focusing the experience. Replayability is great, but I find the Half-Life games highly replayable anyway.

I really enjoy the cutscenes in the Halo series, primarily because they let me witness something that I cannot see from the first person, the grander scope of things that are impacting more than just "hey that gun whose glowy spot you shot at blew up, k?" is what I'm really interested in. I loved Halo 2's intro, because it was a meaty look at something we had never had the chance to delve into in the universe, and I would be ecstatic if we got more of that in ODST They might not be for everyone and I completely understand that. Its just that, to me, the cinematic aspect of the game is enjoyable in its own right, and I wouldn't want it to change, other than to be expanded even more (Additionally, it is completely skippable, so I don't have to hit E to grab crates and see how big of a tower I can make in the corner while people finish their conversations on subsequent playthroughs.) I think Valve is getting better about it though, or rather moving it a bit closer to my preferences, with each episode. Near the beginning of Episode 2 I don't think you have to listen to Alyx talk to Eli, because the rear door is unlocked from the get-go (if I remember correctly), and I really appreciated it. However, I don't think that they should necessarily change their style, because they do it extremely well, but I think that if they found a way to make it a bit less intrusive on the "kill stuff now" time that I enjoy so very much, it could only make for a better experience.
I do enjoy the cutscenes, but I'd really like to see a Bungie game where a lot of this information is ingested in the game itself. The cutscenes are skippable, and that's good, but when I skip them I also cut something out of the game's narrative, the levels start playing in a disjointed way and it really doesn't suit the game. Valve's story bits blend into the whole very well, and the game would suffer needlessly if they were skippable.

And: "hey that gun whose glowy spot you shot at blew up, k?"
Da fuck? There's no possible way you could revise this to make any bit of sense. I could easily say something just as nonsensical:

"I really enjoy the scripted sequences in the Half-Life series, primarily because they let me witness something that I cannot see in a cinematic, the grander scope of things that are impacting more than just "hey that ship that got shot at by another ship blew up, k?" is what I'm really interested in."

But I'm not going to, because that'd be severely marginalizing what the game I'm referring to has to offer (hint hint :P).
 
I don't mind replaying these bits because of a few reasons:

- The quality of the writing, voice acting, and technology behind these little scenes
- There's many things to look around at in the environment while all this goes on
- The settings are just drenched in atmosphere

Discounting all that because of a locked door seems really odd to me. I kid you not, I missed so many cues and story tid-bits in the Halo games because Bungie failed to give me any context or an attempt at focusing the experience. Replayability is great, but I find the Half-Life games highly replayable anyway.

While the quality of voice acting and writing is quite high in those scenes, they aren't paticularly interesting consisting of mostly people jabbering about crap I didn't really care about as I idly looked at the same control panel for the 10th time. I found sitting through those dialog scenes just once painful. I had similar feelings about those communications in Metal Gear Solid 2 though.

Even though the writing of the 3 cutscenes isn't at the same level, there's at least some movement; the camera pans and cuts from person to person, or the characters interact in ways that you can't see from a first person perspective.

Don't get me wrong, first person storytelling (FPST) is a totally valid concept, and can be amazing, but making me stand around as two people jabber is the worst possible situation for it. It mitigates the primary strength of FPST, immersivenes since a) it doesn't square with logical behavior to have a person standing around wacking at shit with a crowbar while two people are talking, and b) it's not something I really need to "Immersed" into. It also accentuates the weaknesses, the lack of any elegant way to skip the section, and the lack of any creative direction in the scenes.

I think Halo 3's storytelling issues aren't a problem with the cutscenes, but with the information it gives you in game. Stuff like "what's this giant gun I'm going after" comes over the radio to you, but it's often obscured by sound settings, and gunfire. If you manage to catch all the context while playing the cutscenes are fine, but that context is so easy to miss, especially in co-op.

Though the rallypoint of "war" still needs to be laughed at mercilessly.
 
Eh, call me weird, but I don't mind listening to those conversations. It just doesn't bother me at all, and I never skip 'em because they're important to the game's pacing. If they talked for twenty minutes, then yes, I'd have a problem with it, but conversations are succinct and to the point in the series.

The conversation in Kleiner's Lab actually was originally around twenty minutes in length, but was eventually cut down into the shorter form we have now. Episode Two also had a lengthy dialogue bit in White Forest, but that was also changed after testing and it was divided into chunks with a new combat section worked into the middle.

Valve can figure out what most people's tolerance level is.
 
Botolf said:
Gimmick? No, not really, it's just a different approach, and has allowed Valve to absolutely push FPS storytelling forward. Scripted sequences and cinematics are two entirely different approaches, that much is certain, but what should be understood is that Valve's way has certain advantages that Bungie's way absolutely lacks.

Bungie's stance on the issue strikes me as really schizophrenic sometimes, they cite the Master Chief's silence as an aid to players getting into his head, and yet he starts talking at a whim and trades jokes with an AI. With Freeman, I define what this character is, what he's about (whether that be assuming the character or jumping around at inappropriate times like a crazed monkey).
You really, really don't define who Freeman is, especially in HL2. You aren't given the option. Instead, you're given tasks that it's assumed you will and want to do. You're not even given a choice in how you react to people, and it's simply assumed how you would react to them. I find it painfully ironic that you're given more ability to define the main character in Bioshock than in the entire Half-life series.

When they gave me the rocket launcher in HL2, I wanted to shove it right back in the sergeant's hands and say, "You're the military guy. I'm just the scientist. You shoot down the fucking helicopter." Did I get that choice? No. A slave obeys...
 
what is this people having a disagreement but not insulting each other. dont you know when you disagree with someone on the internet its supposed to go down like this

person 1: i think you're wrong and this is why
person 2: no you're and your points are invalid
person 1: you're invalid and stupid
person 2: you're stupid and also being immature
person 1:you're 14 and you suck dick


this is the halo thread stop being so nice and entertain me with your distain for one another
 
Aaron said:
You really, really don't define who Freeman is, especially in HL2. You aren't given the option. Instead, you're given tasks that it's assumed you will and want to do. You're not even given a choice in how you react to people, and it's simply assumed how you would react to them. I find it painfully ironic that you're given more ability to define the main character in Bioshock than in the entire Half-life series.

When they gave me the rocket launcher in HL2, I wanted to shove it right back in the sergeant's hands and say, "You're the military guy. I'm just the scientist. You shoot down the fucking helicopter." Did I get that choice? No. A slave obeys...
To clarify, I'm not talking about changing the storyline or mission structure at a whim. I'm talking about the fact that Freeman is an open book, his only voice/attitude is yours (albeit a stunted and mute attitude), whereas Master Chief who is simultaneously regarded by his creators as an open book and also as a character to develop. The tech isn't there for us to truly assume the mantle, so when you play Halo, you're effectively playing one alternate personality of an established character. His characterization and "open book" idealism fight against each other. The silent protagonist is certainly limited in many ways, but at the very least it's more internally consistent.
 
Shake Appeal said:
If this isn't sufficiently clear I will begin work on a series of graphs and mood diagrams.
I want a full powerpoint deck, with screenshots, diagrams and metrics. Maybe a flow chart.

Okay, no. Definitely need a flow chart and I need it tomorrow, by eight. ;-)

EazyB said:
I think Shake and I have clearly stated why we think telling a video game story shouldn't be approached like cinema and literature. It's a different medium and should be treated as such.
Nah, I definitely hear what you guys are saying and I don't necessarily think that your opinion of the nature of Halo's story telling is off base -- even though I'd disagree with your opinions on why it is the way it is (and whether it works). Hell, reading both of your comments, I don't even think either of you entirely agree with each other on why it falls short in your minds, despite presenting some pretty solid arguments.

This could really be an epic-post by me here, but I don't really have the time tonight for it, so I'll try to be snappy. The real question which should preempt the entire argument is: What is Halo? Is it Shakespeare? Is it Steinbeck? Is it Hemingway? Is it Falkner? The answer, of course, is: Hell no. And I'd imagine that Joe Staten, much like he inferred in cinematic DVD during the "pickle-bomb space dive" sequence in H2, would agree in this.

He'd likely claim that Halo is what exactly what it is: a sometimes bombastic-sometimes somber sci-fi space opera which attempts to craft the elements of that specific genre (corny or not) in ways which are not only contemporary and fun for players, but also in ways which can at times engage the audience. Whether this is through its characters' immediacy, its sense of scale (both physically and in terms of the meta-narrative) or even its sheer bravado in showing the player something that is completely impossible outside of the suspension and sometimes the outright eviction of disbelief. And Halo plays this part effectively, so I could definitely complain about Halo's shallow character development, its jarring narrative structure, its corny dialogue or its loose grasp of plausibility -- but the only thing I'd really prove is how little I know about what Halo actually is, not whether it meets the level of criticism I have for other media or even other titles within the the medium of video games.

To the end of whether a video game's story works better in first person or third person, it's less of matter of which is better for me -- rather which works with the title being delivered - or even on a granular basis, for the moment in which story delivery is being materialized by its author. What works for scientist folk with a gravity gun running around a post-apocalyptic metro-outcropping killing alien zombies or a some malcontent who's forced into the depths of an underwater utopia, after its philosophical underpinnings have gone horrifically sideways, doesn't necessarily work for a game like Halo. A game with set pieces that are immense and powerful, with scale that defies most practical gaming conventions (kilometers by the hundred of thousands) and with complex events that span the galaxy, not just an 8x12 zombie-filled alleyway. I'm not saying first-person perspective doesn't have merit, it absolutely does. I just see it as a novel sidebar for immersion purposes in specific titles and not necessarily as something which will evolve the entire art form.

I guess my point is that Halo's storytelling is the way it is for specifically intentional reasons. Some of the reasons might be fiscal. Others might relate to the larger audience, which can't necessarily be ignored. Some deal specifically with the nature of the actual medium (not gaming in general, but Halo itself) - which is considerably different from the other games being cited here. And I think, for the larger part, Halo's storytelling mirrors the standard fare sci-fi, space opera element (cheesiness repleted and expected) because that is, in fact, what it is. As far as the trilogy, it's just something that can't be told with any real efficacy from an entirely first-person perspective. Maybe ODST can, maybe a future Halo game -- but not the trilogy.

Ah, shit. This was supposed to be short, not look what I've done. Thankfully, only like four people here will actually read it all so I'm good if my post is completely out of touch and makes no sense whatsoever.
 
vhfive said:
what is this people having a disagreement but not insulting each other. dont you know when you disagree with someone on the internet its supposed to go down like this

person 1: i think you're wrong and this is why
person 2: no you're and your points are invalid
person 1: you're invalid and stupid
person 2: you're stupid and also being immature
person 1:you're 14 and you suck dick


this is the halo thread stop being so nice and entertain me with your distain for one another

Don't forget Goodwin's law.

shut up, get out

U mad?
 
Mr Vociferous said:
I want a full powerpoint deck, with screenshots, diagrams and metrics. Maybe a flow chart.

Okay, no. Definitely need a flow chart and I need it tomorrow, by eight. ;-)


Nah, I definitely hear what you guys are saying and I don't necessarily think that your opinion of the nature of Halo's story telling is off base -- even though I'd disagree with your opinions on why it is the way it is (and whether it works). Hell, reading both of your comments, I don't even think either of you entirely agree with each other on why it falls short in your minds, despite presenting some pretty solid arguments.

This could really be an epic-post by me here, but I don't really have the time tonight for it, so I'll try to be snappy. The real question which should preempt the entire argument is: What is Halo? Is it Shakespeare? Is it Steinbeck? Is it Hemingway? Is it Falkner? The answer, of course, is: Hell no. And I'd imagine that Joe Staten, much like he inferred in cinematic DVD during the "pickle-bomb space dive" sequence in H2, would agree in this.

He'd likely claim that Halo is what exactly what it is: a sometimes bombastic-sometimes somber sci-fi space opera which attempts to craft the elements of that specific genre (corny or not) in ways which are not only contemporary and fun for players, but also in ways which can at times engage the audience. Whether this is through its characters' immediacy, its sense of scale (both physically and in terms of the meta-narrative) or even its sheer bravado in showing the player something that is completely impossible outside of the suspension and sometimes the outright eviction of disbelief. And Halo plays this part effectively, so I could definitely complain about Halo's shallow character development, its jarring narrative structure, its corny dialogue or its loose grasp of plausibility -- but the only thing I'd really prove is how little I know about what Halo actually is, not whether it meets the level of criticism I have for other media or even other titles within the the medium of video games.

To the end of whether a video game's story works better in first person or third person, it's less of matter of which is better for me -- rather which works with the title being delivered - or even on a granular basis, for the moment in which story delivery is being materialized by its author. What works for scientist folk with a gravity gun running around a post-apocalyptic metro-outcropping killing alien zombies or a some malcontent who's forced into the depths of an underwater utopia, after its philosophical underpinnings have gone horrifically sideways, doesn't necessarily work for a game like Halo. A game with set pieces that are immense and powerful, with scale that defies most practical gaming conventions (kilometers by the hundred of thousands) and with complex events that span the galaxy, not just an 8x12 zombie-filled alleyway. I'm not saying first-person perspective doesn't have merit, it absolutely does. I just see it as a novel sidebar for immersion purposes in specific titles and not necessarily as something which will evolve the entire art form.

I guess my point is that Halo's storytelling is the way it is for specifically intentional reasons. Some of the reasons might be fiscal. Others might relate to the larger audience, which can't necessarily be ignored. Some deal specifically with the nature of the actual medium (not gaming in general, but Halo itself) - which is considerably different from the other games being cited here. And I think, for the larger part, Halo's storytelling mirrors the standard fare sci-fi, space opera element (cheesiness repleted and expected) because that is, in fact, what it is. As far as the trilogy, it's just something that can't be told with any real efficacy from an entirely first-person perspective. Maybe ODST can, maybe a future Halo game -- but not the trilogy.

Ah, shit. This was supposed to be short, not look what I've done. Thankfully, only like four people here will actually read it all so I'm good if my post is completely out of touch and makes no sense whatsoever.

shut up, get out
 
kylej said:
Already been done a bunch of times. I remember Domino Theory made a big post maybe 6 months ago outlining some much needed changes (at the time and now) for matchmaking.
Intriguing list. Radar in Doubles and Snipers is just...




Let's play this: see red dot (option a; if and only if you have a teammate beside you, remain and camp - option b; run away and throw grenades or throw down a bubble or regen).

As for Orbital's grenades... should be just some placed on the map, and you begin with no grenades at all. But that'll never happen, so..
 
vhfive said:
what is this people having a disagreement but not insulting each other. dont you know when you disagree with someone on the internet its supposed to go down like this

person 1: i think you're wrong and this is why
person 2: no you're and your points are invalid
person 1: you're invalid and stupid
person 2: you're stupid and also being immature
person 1:you're 14 and you suck dick


this is the halo thread stop being so nice and entertain me with your distain for one another


Fuck you!!

how's that? ; )
 
Botolf said:
To clarify, I'm not talking about changing the storyline or mission structure at a whim. I'm talking about the fact that Freeman is an open book, his only voice/attitude is yours (albeit a stunted and mute attitude), whereas Master Chief who is simultaneously regarded by his creators as an open book and also as a character to develop. The tech isn't there for us to truly assume the mantle, so when you play Halo, you're effectively playing one alternate personality of an established character. His characterization and "open book" idealism fight against each other. The silent protagonist is certainly limited in many ways, but at the very least it's more internally consistent.
I still disagree. I've played all of the Half-life games and I have only a vague notion of who Freeman is, but at the same time the game never, ever allows me to define him. As if it has a clear notion of who he is, and won't tell me, but also won't let me go outside these rails. Another moment like this is at the start of Ep1 where you have to take down the reactor. How the fuck do I do that? Game doesn't tell me. Of course Gordon would know, but since he's a mute he tells me shit all. It all ends up feeling like I'm stuck in a bad episode of Quantum Leap, keeping my mouth shut in hopes people don't notice I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to be doing.
 
Aaron said:
I still disagree. I've played all of the Half-life games and I have only a vague notion of who Freeman is, but at the same time the game never, ever allows me to define him. As if it has a clear notion of who he is, and won't tell me, but also won't let me go outside these rails.
Like I said, it has its limitations. Until the technology supplies a way for us to shape what Freeman "is" on multiple levels, I'm happy with the silent protagonist compromise.

Another moment like this is at the start of Ep1 where you have to take down the reactor. How the fuck do I do that? Game doesn't tell me. Of course Gordon would know, but since he's a mute he tells me shit all. It all ends up feeling like I'm stuck in a bad episode of Quantum Leap, keeping my mouth shut in hopes people don't notice I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to be doing.
The game tells you, but it's designed to do it in such a way that you don't think it's giving you anything to go on. Preserving discovery, and all that, but this sense of naiveté is a large point of what Freeman is meant to be in the story. He's a husk, an empty shell, and I think, given the current limitations of technology, it's one of the better compromises Valve can make.

Better have him not say anything than to introduce voicing issues, which I've noticed the Halo games do have. I'll use Halo 3 as an example, the level Cortana, specifically. You guide the Chief through the level in an effort to save Cortana, and voicing gets *really* weird near the end of the level.

> You've rescued Cortana! Yay!
> Oh, Master Chief needs to have a word with her.
> Screen fading, I'm back!
> "There's two of us in here, remember?" Wait, are you talking to me?

Might not be a big issue to you, but sometimes it really irritates me. It makes me feel more like a brain parasite than an actual entity in the world.
 
Speaking strictly for myself, I think that it's nice to be able to put down the controller at the end of a level. Cut scenes give you a breather (a chance to recuperate), while at the same time, a reward for completing a level, an appetizer of whatever is coming next.

On a completely unrelated note, I'm once again the proud owner of an xbox360 and ready to get in some games of halo on xboxlive. I was able to retrieve my old account, so my gamertag is still XxDeputyMoonman. If you guys ever need an extra, look me up.
 
I replayed the single player campaign... love the 1st level, awesome set pieces but the 2nd level is just sooo ughhhhh
 
Mr Vociferous said:
I guess my point is that Halo's storytelling is the way it is for specifically intentional reasons. Some of the reasons might be fiscal. Others might relate to the larger audience, which can't necessarily be ignored. Some deal specifically with the nature of the actual medium (not gaming in general, but Halo itself) - which is considerably different from the other games being cited here. And I think, for the larger part, Halo's storytelling mirrors the standard fare sci-fi, space opera element (cheesiness repleted and expected) because that is, in fact, what it is. As far as the trilogy, it's just something that can't be told with any real efficacy from an entirely first-person perspective.
I broadly agree with this, actually. Because of the road Bungie went down with these games (and as Vociferous suggests, we could put forward quite a number of competing reasons for that road, and not another one), cutscenes becomes necessary to make sense of things, to move the action along, to cope with the sheer scale of things... everything Voc said. I think my complaint is that these cutscenes are being asked to do too much in too little time, again and again, until the story piles up behind them like the carriages in a train wreck. More than that, while they might serve solid functional purposes, they do nowhere near enough to help the game on an immersive or 'aesthetic' level.

But I do think Bungie at times tried to tell us more about the universe through other means. The comm chatter often has little asides which are insightful. Marines comment on the world or events occurring around them. There are useful vistas (such as seeing our galaxy in the skybox of 'The Ark') throughout. But in terms of smart bits of in-game storytelling, I always think of the 'crazed' marine during 'Floodgate'. There could be many, many more (and more fully realised) little scenes/vignettes/moments like this, which are easily skippable (in that the player can just jog away from them) but which easily serve to make the world deeper and, yes, more immersive.

I'm not sure how many times I've said this by now, but Bungie's use of Earth is so baffling to me, not only because they can't seem to keep the Chief on the surface for more than a few levels before catapulting him across the galaxy again, but because at no point does their Earth actually convey a sense of human life and living, and never does it raise the stakes in the way the ad campaigns (again and again, for 2 and for 3) tell us it should. You have an ideal opportunity to show homes, places people live, those lives being destroyed, civilians running through the streets, a mother who's lost her child (even Halo Wars does this better, for Chrissake, from several hundred feet up)... and what you get is a few helmeted industrial workers cowering in factories. These places are under siege, yes, and ravaged, yes... but where are the news broadcasts? Street grafitti? The people who lived here, who you are ostensibly fighting to preserve? Valve's vision in Left 4 Dead's zombie apocalypse has more life in it. I learn more about life in City 17 in the first two minutes of Half-Life 2 than I ever do about life on the whole of planet Earth over the course of three Halo games. When Lord Hood tells Rtas 'Vadum that he just glassed half a continent, it has no impact, because as far as the player is concerned that continent is just a few abandoned factories sitting on the lip of a dustbowl, right?

I know some people have an aversion to scripted sequences, but you can place scripted sequences in a world and not restrict the player's movement and vision (Halo example: the first appearance of Hunters in 'The Storm'). Replay the first fifteen-to-twenty minutes of Bioshock, and look at how much can be learned about the world of Rapture just by moving through those environments (much of it is on rails, yes, but from behind your eyes; try and imagine how much more dull it would be if it was shown as a minute-or-two-long third-person cutscene). Then replay the first (non-shooting) segment of Half-Life 2 and count the details that inform us about the environment just by walking through it, listening to people talk, taking in the sights, observing the Combine at work, and so on. Even once the guns start firing the game is constantly supplying you with information without you even realising it, and providing many (quite optional) opportunities to learn more. The more you go to the world (in-game storytelling) rather than having the world brought to you (cutscenes dumped on you to keep you clued in), the easier it is to suspend your disbelief. People may complain about Kleiner's lab, but there are so many hints in that room about the story -- through newspaper clippings, through the 'mini-teleporter', through surveillance footage -- that are fascinating to the invested player, and which can be utterly ignored (or not even noticed) by everyone else. I agree that perhaps there should be an option to skip that sequence after the first play... but if all you want to do is get to the next shooting gallery, why are you playing Half-Life in the first place? Why are you playing Bioshock? These games are about instant immersion, intelligent suggestion, and a very particular style and feel. You're either on board for that, or you aren't. The crucial thing is that apart from a very few sections where you are 'locked in' to an environment (and Halo has these too, don't forget; just think of Crow's Nest), most of the story detail in these games is mise-en-scène, like Levine said. You can trample across the stage, kicking over the scenery, guns blazing, and not notice what's going on, and so end up being confused by it... or you can choose to soak it in. In this sense it can be enjoyed on different levels by different players, depending on how considered their approach is, and how deep down the rabbit hole they want to go.

So my real, underlying issue is that Halo, aside from being a great series of games, feels dry and arid, devoid of real life apart from the things you shoot with or at, and that there is no sense of the stakes involved for the player, and so no real investment in the events of the plot (why should we even be bothering to prevent mass extinction at the hands of Covenant or Flood, when all that's going to get wiped out is Miranda Keyes, Sergeant Johnson, and some close-to-identikit marines?). And it's downright upsetting that it's easier to get invested in pre-launch ads for the game than in the game itself. Cutscenes will get your story from A to B, set up the next shooting gallery, and perhaps show some pretty things along the way. They can serve a functional purpose, in the ways Vociferous detailed. But they can't, by themselves, bring a world fully to life; that comes, at least in part, from the player's being-in-the-world (thanks, Heidegger!). More importantly, cutscenes alone can't convince people to care, unless they're already invested in the wider source material, or really, really like the big green tin man and his busty hologram sidekick.

Bonus wall-of-text edit: I should stress also that I don't mind cheesiness, familiar sci-fi tropes, a certain level of implausability, and so forth. But I don't think the existence of these things allows us to excuse Halo, or any other science-fiction epic, be it a game, movie, or book, of concurrent weak characterisation, ragged plotting, and a general absence of depth or real feeling. You should be striving to get those things right regardless.
 
Botolf said:
The game tells you, but it's designed to do it in such a way that you don't think it's giving you anything to go on. Preserving discovery, and all that, but this sense of naiveté is a large point of what Freeman is meant to be in the story. He's a husk, an empty shell, and I think, given the current limitations of technology, it's one of the better compromises Valve can make.
The game tells you nothing at that point. Zip. Zero. I only passed that part by looking it up on gamefaqs after wasting time stumbling around blindly. How was I supposed to know I was supposed to remove the panel with the anti-grav gun?

Freeman is NOT an empty shell. I don't know why you keep insisting on this. He has a name, an appearance, qualifications, expectations from others, goals, purpose... he just doesn't speak. Actions speak louder than words, and all of his actions are pre-scripted. These restrictions define him. I guess you can decide if he's all manly about it, or some emo whiny boy, but that doesn't mean anything in the scope of the narrative.

On the other side, I don't remember the story of Halo 3 at all. Nothing stuck.
 
Botolf said:
I would have loved to touchdown on the Ark all in FP, would've been absolutely sick traversing the atmosphere!
Would have been awesome.

Aaron said:
The game tells you nothing at that point. Zip. Zero. I only passed that part by looking it up on gamefaqs after wasting time stumbling around blindly. How was I supposed to know I was supposed to remove the panel with the anti-grav gun?

Freeman is NOT an empty shell. I don't know why you keep insisting on this. He has a name, an appearance, qualifications, expectations from others, goals, purpose... he just doesn't speak. Actions speak louder than words, and all of his actions are pre-scripted. These restrictions define him. I guess you can decide if he's all manly about it, or some emo whiny boy, but that doesn't mean anything in the scope of the narrative.

On the other side, I don't remember the story of Halo 3 at all. Nothing stuck.
Aaron, I didn't know you were a fan of Half-Life, Halo (?), and BioShock.
 
Dax01 said:
Aaron, I didn't know you were a fan of Half-Life, Halo (?), and BioShock.
I am a fan of all of those things, though honestly I tend to be easy to please. Storytelling is the least important aspect of videogames for me.
 
Stormtrooper30 said:
As far as complaints go, openly attacking a person is never good. I agree with Frankie on the posting the list thing everytime you want to complain. It's a lot more effective, as people may actaully read it. That is, if Shishka hasn't blocked you yet, Juices.
BR

I don't think I've been blocked I believe he quoted me a bit ago. Really though I remember coming to this thread along time ago and I was nice saying whats on my mind. I remember posting ideas and playlists and people go yea those are good and blah blah. I CONTINUE to post lists of things that need change. We bitch all day about certain things that OBVIOUSLY need fixed (PARTY SPLITTING), but NOTHING gets done continuously over and over and the game has been out for a year and some months. It gets a bit annoying that all of you STILL suck on Bungies nuts everytime they post being quoted multiple times and you are all still so fucking happy. They aren't doing shit and a lot of us are really getting tired of MM. Before it was like fuck this and then we'd continue playing, but now I see less and less people getting on H3 (here at neogaf, i dunno if the actual numbers are lower or higher) but its quite annoying to see such a great game have such wasted potential.

And the fact remains if you bitch enough they will fix shit. This has been true over the course of history. Remember when there was no Team Snipers?

So everyone hate me if you want, trust me I truly don't give half-a-fuck what internet nerds (most of you are nerds) think about me. The real kickass people who've taken the time to get to know me over actual Halo games are fuck-awesome. You think I act like this in real life? of course fucking not.
 
Dax01 said:
What's wrong with being a nerd?

Just because we are on the internet, it doesn't mean you have the right to act like an ass.

Nothing, I'd rather be a nerd than a jock. Nerds make the cash in the end.

Um yea it does. That's the entire point of the internet. Did you not read the manual? :D
 
I still think alot of people are skipping over the conversation about most video game stories flawed by nature of the genre, and why books and cinema still have the edge in storytelling.

The purity of a good story in a game is usually compromised by the need to make a game fun. Like the main character is always the hero or involved/witness to the action of every scene. Or the rapidly changing settings for level variety - the whole lava world, water world, green level, etc... the same can be extended to a lesser extent about enemy variety. Maybe this contributes to my feelings that a game's universe is more important than its central narrative (Bioshock, Halo, Half-life, etc), because the universe/history of the game can remain mostly pure and doesn't need to unfold right before the players eyes. Like how the player listens to audiotapes in bioshock, or reads the terminals in halo, etc.

I also think the technology is still a barrier to fully realized story-telling in games. The character animation is still just too horsey in most games for proper immersion during cutscenes, particularly during speaking. Most games with cutscene story-telling still feels like watching a puppet-show to me, and a big part of why I have a hard time making a game story feel real, or bother taking it serious.

Two games this gen. have really blown me away with story telling though, and that's because they used the concept of a game (strengths and limitations) to properly tell their storys. I don't know how to properly articulate this point, but basically Braid and Portal.

Portal was amazing because the writing and delivery was so good, really a step above most/nearly all writing in games. I actually laughed, for real. Not the corny game-joke chuckle, it made me really laugh for a split-second. That alone is an accomplishment of story-telling. The first game to get a real-life reaction from me via story-telling. It did all this while feeling like a game. I felt like my progress was advancing the story in real-time and not triggering events, probably because the delivery was so natural.

And Braid, because the story-telling was the game. I can't think of a proper way to explain this point, but if you understood everything that just happened in the game, you'd know what I meant. Even the gameplay mechanic of time-manipulation is central to the story/regret of the main character but it's never handed to you, and it never betrays the purity of the story-telling to hold your hand like most games do. Rather then following the development of the story from point a - b, Braid nails non-linear story telling and the story unfolds in Tarintino fashion where the ending is actually the beginning. It was fantastic.
 
Botolf said:
And: "hey that gun whose glowy spot you shot at blew up, k?"
Da fuck? There's no possible way you could revise this to make any bit of sense. I could easily say something just as nonsensical:

"I really enjoy the scripted sequences in the Half-Life series, primarily because they let me witness something that I cannot see in a cinematic, the grander scope of things that are impacting more than just "hey that ship that got shot at by another ship blew up, k?" is what I'm really interested in."

But I'm not going to, because that'd be severely marginalizing what the game I'm referring to has to offer (hint hint :P).
Oh no no no that comment was a direct reference to the cutscene directly following The Storm in Halo 3, as an example of a scene I think actually SHOULD have been first person the whole way (as opposed to something like the opening scene of The Covenant or The Ark, where the storytelling jumps from the bridge of a cruiser to the hangar to the Pelicans very quickly, which I think would not have been served well by a first person view). Just a misunderstanding.
 
xxjuicesxx said:
I don't think I've been blocked I believe he quoted me a bit ago. Really though I remember coming to this thread along time ago and I was nice saying whats on my mind. I remember posting ideas and playlists and people go yea those are good and blah blah. I CONTINUE to post lists of things that need change. We bitch all day about certain things that OBVIOUSLY need fixed (PARTY SPLITTING), but NOTHING gets done continuously over and over and the game has been out for a year and some months. It gets a bit annoying that all of you STILL suck on Bungies nuts everytime they post being quoted multiple times and you are all still so fucking happy. They aren't doing shit and a lot of us are really getting tired of MM. Before it was like fuck this and then we'd continue playing, but now I see less and less people getting on H3 (here at neogaf, i dunno if the actual numbers are lower or higher) but its quite annoying to see such a great game have such wasted potential.

And the fact remains if you bitch enough they will fix shit. This has been true over the course of history. Remember when there was no Team Snipers?

So everyone hate me if you want, trust me I truly don't give half-a-fuck what internet nerds (most of you are nerds) think about me. The real kickass people who've taken the time to get to know me over actual Halo games are fuck-awesome. You think I act like this in real life? of course fucking not.

He's right you know...
 
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