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The Official Halo 3 Thread

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Okay, gonna go off on a melee tangent. If you're sick of it (Hey, Frankie) you can skip right over.

I've always had a pretty decent pipe to the Internets, so perhaps my perception is flawed, but was hand-to-hand combat in Halo 2 really all the poor due to latency issues? I do remember quite a bit of lag in plenty of games, and sure, the melee had one hell of a lunge, but I don't recall being consistently frustrated over arms reach combat.

Sword? Yeah. Shotgun? Shit yeah. Melee? Not really.

It makes me wonder why so much attention was paid directly to combating latency specifically for melee.
 
urk said:
Okay, gonna go off on a melee tangent. If you're sick of it (Hey, Frankie) you can skip right over.

I've always had a pretty decent pipe to the Internets, so perhaps my perception is flawed, but was hand-to-hand combat in Halo 2 really all the poor due to latency issues? I do remember quite a bit of lag in plenty of games, and sure, the melee had one hell of a lunge, but I don't recall being consistently frustrated over arms reach combat.

Sword? Yeah. Shotgun? Shit yeah. Melee? Not really.

It makes me wonder why so much attention was paid directly to combating latency specifically for melee.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree with you there. The actual act of landing a melee wasn't all that bad in Halo 2 but I think Tyson is just being a perfectionist as Bungie employees usually tend to be.
 
urk said:
Okay, gonna go off on a melee tangent. If you're sick of it (Hey, Frankie) you can skip right over.

I've always had a pretty decent pipe to the Internets, so perhaps my perception is flawed, but was hand-to-hand combat in Halo 2 really all the poor due to latency issues? I do remember quite a bit of lag in plenty of games, and sure, the melee had one hell of a lunge, but I don't recall being consistently frustrated over arms reach combat.

Sword? Yeah. Shotgun? Shit yeah. Melee? Not really.

It makes me wonder why so much attention was paid directly to combating latency specifically for melee.
Click to expand...

I understand that Halo 2's system of Host-Normally-Wins was "Unfair."

But it didn't generate near the amount of bitching and complaining that Halo 3's melee system is getting. People just dealt with it.
 
How much bandwidth does this game use per player at peak usage??

I've been getting terrible lag in ranked BTB. It doesn't seem to be just latency between players. Most of the time it seems the host simply lacks the bandwidth to host 16 players. Players and objects teleporting all over the place, grenades don't explode, and no indication of taking damage and suddenly dying. It's a joke really.
 
NJ x Falkor said:
I understand that Halo 2's system of Host-Normally-Wins was "Unfair."

But it didn't generate near the amount of bitching and complaining that Halo 3's melee system is getting. People just dealt with it.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I know jack squat about the technical dependencies that Bungie is dealing with, but it sounds like a dual-solution could work. Use the Halo 2 system for all players but the host, and use the fix they are implementing for Halo 3's combat to mitigate host advantage.

But really, if this fix largely addresses the issue, it's a moot point. We'll know in a couple weeks.
 
Ranked BTB is still finding hosts to use. I believe I remember reading each playlist has their own set. In a few weeks, the connections will be back to normal.

Back when BTB unranked first was played, there was series of laggy games and some of not. Now once you play it there's hardly any lag at all.

NJ x Falkor said:
I understand that Halo 2's system of Host-Normally-Wins was "Unfair."

But it didn't generate near the amount of bitching and complaining that Halo 3's melee system is getting. People just dealt with it.
Click to expand...
I hated the BR-accuracy and the host ability overall in Halo 2 than anything I've encountered in Halo 3 so far.
 
It seems to me that this fails to address the underlying problem - the 100ms window. It's a fix trying to use the same system that people have been calling broken since the game came out, the HP comparisons, and that's still kind of bullshit. I don't see why Bungie is trying to take on the huge Problem of Internet Latency, since it's not fixable and people have come to know and accept this. It will only be slightly less annoying to lose to the system if there's someone else losing with you - but then you've just got two annoyed people instead of one.

The existence of this system in a game with such strong roots in LAN get-togethers is just absurd, because it completely breaks local gameplay. People expect that online gaming will play exactly like LAN gaming, just with some lag and its consequences. They're used to it and they know it's unavoidable, so Bungie trying to papier-mache over it is very frustrating. You can't fix lag, so leave it in its most familiar form. This whole thing is like some industrious (but misguided) kid applying avisynth filters to an awful telesync film release and trying to convince people it's watchable.

The real issue is that good timing used to be a component of competent meleeing, and now it isn't, and this "fix" doesn't acknowledge that.

Back in the day, nobody playing Halo on XBC got bent out of shape over lag. You led the dude with your sniper and you dealt with it. If you lost a close melee, you could blame lag. Now when you lose a close melee, you blame the system, so Bungie gets the hate instead of internet tubes. Why would you do that?
 
Insaniac said:
So i guess I can expect to be dying with my opponent a lot eh
Click to expand...

Hey that was what the community wanted. They bitched and bitched and bitched so much, now this is what they get.

I like the current melee as is.
 
BakedPigeon said:
Hey that was what the community wanted.
Click to expand...

That's not true. We just don't like losing melee battles that we've been winning since Halo 1 and having it rubbed in with our limp corpses sent vaulting skyward like a rag doll shot from a fail cannon.
 
urk said:
That's not true. We just don't like losing melee battles that we've been winning since Halo 1 and having it rubbed in with our limp corpses sent vaulting skyward like a rag doll shot from a fail cannon.
Click to expand...

Well if you loose a melee battle its just because your opponent did more damage to you prior to the melee, or he melee'd first. WTF is so bad about that? Stop spray and praying and actually aim your AR.
 
Here's what I think about the melee system, and it's going to sound negative.

A good networking system has time synchronization - where messages sent from client to server (host) have a timestamp. The 100ms window where two opponents can both throw melee attacks within the window and they both register - that's a bad idea. I understand the time window, I just don't think the resolution is right.

What should happen is that when a player uses melee, a time stamped messages arrives at the host. The host waits 100ms to see if the other player has also used melee, and if the other player has also used melee, the host uses the timestamp to determine who used melee first. Timestamps are synchronized to the host, so the stamps let the host know exactly when the melee strikes happened - regardless of latency. If the person who used melee first would have killed the person who used melee second because the 70 points of damage exceeded their remaining health, then the second melee doesn't register at all. The second player was killed before he even got the melee off. Otherwise, both register. Apply the 70 points of damage to both players - whoever dies, dies. It could be both or neither.

I understand the logic of having a 100ms window that both melees register - I just think the person who used melee first should be the deciding factor, not who has more health.

I disagree with allowing both melee strikes to register if they are both within the window, and disagree with a 26.5 threshold where you're protected from death.

I'd like to know whether the same system is used for deciding when two people face off with weapons, such as shotguns.

I do trust that Bungie has extremely talented networking dudes, and the problems are probably far more complex than the tip of the iceberg that we're getting in the weekly updates - so I hope that when the auto update comes people are happier. I just doubt they will be ;-)
 
BakedPigeon said:
Hey that was what the community wanted. They bitched and bitched and bitched so much, now this is what they get.

I like the current melee as is.
Click to expand...
That's what the community wanted? No, the community wanted what we've had since Halo 1. Yeah, host advantage sucked, but now we know the other option and it sucks worse.

A friend of mine asked me last night what I thought of the proposed solution and I told him, "I think it sounds great." He was surprised and asked, "really? I'm not too sure about it. Why do you think it sounds so good?" I proceeded to tell him that I thought that, like Bungie said, it will at least be better that "you should no longer watch your opponent saunter away for no clear reason." As I was explaining my position, I realized that I didn't entirely agree with what I was saying. "It will be better..." I kept saying. Is being just a little better good enough? It all comes down to how it plays. If I find myself constantly simul-dying with my enemy, then this fix is going to be better, but still very frustrating.

I don't know. I don't know if I'd rather have host advantage than constant simultaneous deaths. Like I said (and I'm sure everyone agrees) - we just have to see how it plays.

One thing that really gets me, though, is this quote:

Over Halo 2’s three years online, many people adapted and got used to preemptively throwing a melee, but it was still fundamentally unfair in favor of the host or people with faster connections.

So, to be clear and upfront, we will not be returning to those days of letting the host win when the outcome is in doubt, aka. first melee wins.
Click to expand...

In other words, "we approached this problem by ruling out the community's most comfortable and wanted solution in advance."

Thatbox put it well a few posts above me. Bungie, I know you're trying to help, and I'm sure you thought you were being innovative in fixing a problem that no other game devs have been able to fix yet. But you can't fix latency. You're breaking the game. You're breaking what videogaming is at its core.

We considered and ultimately rejected some ideas that could have made melee contests produce a less inscrutable result. A major consideration was that we wanted to minimize the impact on how Halo 3 plays to the greatest degree possible, while still addressing the problem. Radically changing the mechanics of melee combat is not something we want at this point.
Click to expand...

You're kidding me. You already have radically changed the mechanics of the game. At least twice a game, I deal with this melee business. From the first day that I started playing Halo 3, I knew something was off. I assumed it was just me getting used to the slight changes in health and such, but after time I didn't get any better. The melee is broken for people who use it often. Yeah, we joke around by employing the term "broken," but it's true. If you really don't want to engage in "radically changing the mechanics of melee combat," then why did you radically change the mechanics of melee combat?

One thing I am excited about is seeing exactly how often I am screwed by Bungie's innovative melee system. Currently, I can only guess as to when I should have won a battle. I feel like it's quite often, but I may not be as good at the game as I think I am. I'm excited to see how many simul-deaths I have per game, after the AU.

I typed out, and subsequently deleted, a paragraph here that asked Bungie to consider that sometimes its community's complaints are valid - but I realized that Bungie already knows that. They didn't have to make any changes to the current melee system, but they're doing it anyway.

Like I've said before, I know they're trying to be innovative. I know they're trying to rid online gaming of a problem that has existed since its inception. But I don't think that this is the solution. You tried, Bungie. You took one for the team. Now, other devs that want to get rid of host advantage know what won't work; yes, it technically works, but the community playing the game hates it. And that shouldn't be acceptable.

I really, really hope that Bungie's devs reverse their position of "not going back to H2's system (and every other game ever's system) no matter what," and reconsider that as an option when the community is overwhelmed by simul-deaths.

Of course, I haven't played with the AU yet. But I'd rather Bungie cure the cold they gave me instead of trading me a cough for a headache.
 
BakedPigeon said:
Well if you loose a melee battle its just because your opponent did more damage to you prior to the melee, or he melee'd first. WTF is so bad about that? Stop spray and praying and actually aim your AR.
Click to expand...

Right. I'm just a shitty player. Gotcha.

We've been over this before. The way it works now, if I close and melee and my opponent does not have enough hit points to survive the strike, there is a good chance that he will, in fact, survive anyway. And if he responds (responds as in too late) with a melee of his own and has a single hit point of health more than me, then he will not only live, but also get the kill.

He is literally rewarded for miscalculating, having a slower reaction time, and for having a shittier host than me.

And since you took a shot at my skills, I'll just say that in that face of that it's no wonder you like it. ;)
 
urk said:
Right. I'm just a shitty player. Gotcha.

We've been over this before. The way it works now, if I close and melee and my opponent does not have enough hit points to survive the strike, there is a good chance that he will, in fact, survive anyway. And if he responds (responds as in too late) with a melee of his own and has a single hit point of health more than me, then he will not only live, but also get the kill.

He is literally rewarded for miscalculating, having a slower reaction time, and for having a shittier host than me.

And since you took a shot at my skills, I'll just say that in that face of that it's no wonder you like it. ;)
Click to expand...

I not taking a shot at YOUR skills per se, just pointing out that if you effectively damage your opponent prior to a melee you should come out victorious.
 
Cocopjojo said:
I really, really hope that Bungie's devs reverse their position of "not going back to H2's system (and every other game ever's system) no matter what," and reconsider that as an option when the community is overwhelmed by simul-deaths.
Click to expand...

Host client relationships are completely different in Halo 2 than they were in Halo 3. Your paraphrasing is a bit overzealous.
 
BakedPigeon said:
I not taking a shot at YOUR skills per se, just pointing out that if you effectively damage your opponent prior to a melee you should come out victorious.
Click to expand...
You understand that the melee is reversed now, right? The person who melees second wins, since he spent more time shooting and his opponent's health is lower. So instead of "shoot until your opponent has the exact amount of health that your meleee does with damage, then melee!" it's now some convoluted "shoot until your opponent is about to melee (just predict it), then keep shooting after he's meleed and then melee right before the 100 ms time period is up."
 
LukeSmith said:
Host client relationships are completely different in Halo 2 than they were in Halo 3. Your paraphrasing is a bit overzealous.
Click to expand...
Well, my paraphrasing is fine. He said we aren't going back to Halo 2's system (which is the same system that all other online games have). It's just my opinion on whether or not we should go back that is different. Or maybe you're saying that due to the nature of Halo 3's host-client relationship it's impossible to go back.
 
Cocopjojo said:
You understand that the melee is reversed now, right? The person who melees second wins, since he spent more time shooting and his opponent's health is lower. So instead of "shoot until your opponent has the exact amount of health that your meleee does with damage, then melee!" it's now some convoluted "shoot until your opponent is about to melee (just predict it), then keep shooting after he's meleed and then melee right before the 100 ms time period is up."
Click to expand...

Ummm no, not really. Plenty of melee kills happen on the first melee strike from either player.
 
BakedPigeon said:
I not taking a shot at YOUR skills per se, just pointing out that if you effectively damage your opponent prior to a melee you should come out victorious.
Click to expand...

Yup. I should. But I don't. I think you got it now. ;)

And this probably aggravates me more than most due to my abnormal love for landing a gun butt with a satisfying thud, and I know I'm being a little bitch about it, especially in the face of Bungie being the best developer ever and putting great pains into digging in and reworking their awesome game when most would rather dig in and refuse to make the adjustments.
 
Great update, very informative, but I'm not sure what to think about the melee "fix".
This is what I got from it:
In the current system if both opponents have low health and attack each other "simultaneously", the one with more health wins.
After the update, the same scenario would play out this way. No matter how damaged the two players are relative to each other, if they're both close to death, they'll both die.

To me this sounds like instead of one person being pissed that they died, they'd both die and be pissed. For instance I toss a grenade beneath someone after being hit by a brute shot (which is a one shot one melee kill), my opponent has less health then my and I strike him with a melee first, but he quickly responds with his own melee within the 100ms. Now instead of him dying (like he would under the current system), we both die. So not only did I deal more damage before striking but I also hit first; yet I still die.
The though of a bunch of simultaneous deaths is a little frightening, my K/D ratio is trembling. Hopefully the system doesn't behave like this in actuality, so I'll save anymore complaining until after it's released.

On a brighter note, glad to see Bungie is implementing a system where it could use user created content in MM. Hope we see a quick turnaround there. Also excited to see what the holiday playlist will hold.
 
urk said:
I've always had a pretty decent pipe to the Internets, so perhaps my perception is flawed, but was hand-to-hand combat in Halo 2 really all the poor due to latency issues? I do remember quite a bit of lag in plenty of games, and sure, the melee had one hell of a lunge, but I don't recall being consistently frustrated over arms reach combat.

Sword? Yeah. Shotgun? Shit yeah. Melee? Not really.

It makes me wonder why so much attention was paid directly to combating latency specifically for melee.
Click to expand...
Europe says hello. Not that I'm pleased about melee as it is now (or as it will be after the fix), but when almost every Halo 2 game I ever played saw me playing 50-150ms behind the inevitably American host I can't help but appreciate Bungie's efforts (although the times when a European host was selected were always a joy, for the whining if nothing else). But they've messed it up entirely and this is not a satisfactory fix; in fact it'll make things worse.

Halo 3's melee fundamentally undermines Bungie's professed ideal of the 'tripod' of guns, grenades, and melee. The whole point of melee is that it can swing a losing battle in your favour with quick reactions. As it is now it just confirms who was already winning. Post-fix, it will just confirm who was already winning, or kill both players if it was quite close.

Ridiculous.

but thanks 4 trying u bungle guyz ur the best
 
If your going on tonight please add: SH4RKPUNCH for some games that are non-big team (my connection isn't amazing, and starts to lag at and around 12+ players.
 
Eh. Bungie spent the past five months evaluating, testing and implementing a way to address the flaws of the current mêlée system. They brought in the MLG guys to help with the final testing and gather feedback. On (digital) paper it doesn't sound perfect, but I'm content to give them the benefit of the doubt until I've had the chance to play with it myself. I wasn't shy about pissing to high hell about the current system, and won't be about the new one if it blows. But for now, I'm content that hey, they're trying. Let's see how it works. The time for bitching - or praising - will be when it's out.
 
Domino Theory said:
Striker, if you're reading this, put your headset on!! ><
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You came in my party? :lol

There's four others I was going to join then I had to leave the room. So I sent you the message and left. I didn't expect you to come in so fast :P

By the way, my mic is kind of broke. I can hear people, but I can't talk unless there's some hit of static or I must hold the wires in a certain position. :\
 
Striker said:
You came in my party? :lol

There's four others I was going to join then I had to leave the room. So I sent you the message and left. I didn't expect you to come in so fast :P

By the way, my mic is kind of broke. I can hear people, but I can't talk unless there's some hit of static or I must hold the wires in a certain position. :\
Click to expand...

musta wrapped the wire or somehting. Same thing happened to my controllers back then I wrapped them.
 
I'll hold my tongue until I play the update on the melees.

Still have many other concerns that haven't been mentioned at all.
Hopefully other things are being addressed in the update.

I'm getting bored with COD4, this update can't come soon enough.
I'm not touching halo till.
 
XSX said:
musta wrapped the wire or somehting. Same thing happened to my controllers back then I wrapped them.
Click to expand...
I throw my headset on a table when I don't use it. I don't wrap anything unless I am taking my 360 somewhere. -.-

It's ok for now, I guess.
 
Frank/Luke, can you relay this to the AU guys? I know it's late in the game to be changing things, since the AU is getting close to being finalized, but this should be an easy fix:

When you highlight the "end game" option in the pause screen during custom matches, on the right it reads: "Choose this option to put and end to the conflict before it ends itself." Obviously, it should be "to put an end to the conflict."
 
EazyB said:
To me this sounds like instead of one person being pissed that they died, they'd both die and be pissed.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised how much better it feels for the other person to die when you do in a really close situation.
 
Dirtbag 504 said:
I'll hold my tongue until I play the update on the melees.

Still have many other concerns that haven't been mentioned at all.
Hopefully other things are being addressed in the update.

I'm getting bored with COD4, this update can't come soon enough.
I'm not touching halo till.
Click to expand...

No one cares if you dont play Halo 3 or not.
 
plague said:
You'd be surprised how much better it feels for the other person to die when you do in a really close situation.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Killing from the grave, or simultaneously, is actually pretty satisfying.

urk said:
I do. He's fun to play with.
Click to expand...
So. Many. Interpretations.

Oh, and thanks for that thing. The one in the plastic bag.
 
Behold, Frankie sticking himself in the face after I put him to rest. T'was a memorable moment:
frankiestickhimselfLOL.jpg
 
Domino Theory said:
Behold, Frankie sticking himself in the face after I put him to rest. T'was a memorable moment:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a227/kingomlet/frankiestickhimselfLOL.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
Lol something like that happened on our snowbound game last night. The guy threw a sticky just as i dropped a bubble right in front =)
Click to expand...
 
Insaniac said:
So, I can't login to live anymore, I get a "information is not valid anymore" or something error. Help?
Click to expand...

Probably all those people downloading undertow, borked up the system ;p
 
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