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The Literary Works of J.R.R. Tolkien Megathread |OT| Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

I need to read the simarillion. I wonder if my friend would notice if it vanished from her bathroom reading selection for a few weeks.

For the record, I've always just been the camp that prefers to think of Glorfindell of Rivendell and Glorfindel of Gondolin as the same guy.

That makes sense. What was it glorfindel said when he met the fellowship? "There aren't many even in Rivendell who dare ride openly against the Nine, but those of us that there are have gone out to find you etc etc"


My brother, my friend, and I got into a shouting match over exactly what Tom Bombadil was over Twilight Imperium last week. It then split into what the difference was between the Valar and Maiar were.

It was quite possibly the nerdiest thing I have ever done.

If you actually have to deliberate that, then you've done some amazingly nerdy things.



EDIT: "The balrog debate," Mr Dantes? what is that?
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I need to read the simarillion. I wonder if my friend would notice if it vanished from her bathroom reading selection for a few weeks.



That makes sense. What was it glorfindel said when he met the fellowship? "There aren't many even in Rivendell who dare ride openly against the Nine, but those of us that there are have gone out to find you etc etc"




If you actually have to deliberate that, then you've done some amazingly nerdy things.



EDIT: "The balrog debate," Mr Dantes? what is that?
Wings or no wings.

One of the most controversial debates among Tolkien fans.
 

Loxley

Member
EDIT: "The balrog debate," Mr Dantes? what is that?

He may or may not be referring to the debate of whether or not Balrog's actually have wings, and if Tolkien was just being metaphorical and not literal.

*edit - beaten badly :)

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

… suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall …

In the first sentence he's just describing the width of the Balrog's shadow as though he had wings, but doesn't. But that second part makes it pretty clear that they do, I mean, why mention 'wings' twice if they don't have any? I think they do, because honestly, wings just make them so much cooler.

balrogg.jpg
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Seems pretty clear to me they have wings. Two separate sentences. One was figurative about its size, the other clearly states it has wings.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Speaking of Glorfindel;
"It is therefore entirley in keeping with the genral design of The Silmarillion to describe the subsequent history of Glorfindel thus. After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandros and Manwe restored him. He then became again a living incarnate person, but he was permitted to dwell in the Blessed realm; for he had regained his primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost equal, for though he was incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was neccesary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice."
From HOME Volume12.


Tolkien's latter and final thoughts on Glorfindel. Going by this, the resurrected Glorfindel was above even the likes of Feanor, Fingolfin and Finrod.
 
I interpreted the "wings" as an extended metaphor for a menacing shadowy aura. If it had literal wings, they were some serious vestigial bitch-wings for all the good they did Durin's Bane.

EDIT: What am I turning into. What has happened to me. I spent the last week before the hobbit film came out reading the lotr wiki, then saw the hobbit, then re-read lotr, and now I'm gonna read the simarillion and am saving up for more lotr legos.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
So is Tolkien basically the Tupac of fantasy literature?

edit: I love this thread already. Vestigial bitch-wings? lol
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
In the first sentence he's just describing the width of the Balrog's shadow as though he had wings, but doesn't. But that second part makes it pretty clear that they do, I mean, why mention 'wings' twice if they don't have any? I think they do, because honestly, wings just make them so much cooler.

From a purely syntactical perspective I think the important question is how far apart the two sentences are. I haven't read it in quite a while. If the one immediately follows the other then I think there's a good argument for a continuation of the simile. If it's a few sentences away I'd take it to be literal.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Essentially. He's got a new book coming out this year:

thefallofarthurbytolkie.jpg

the dopest book he ever wrote...

in '94

I should re-read LOTR, because I haven't actually read it since the movies came out. Just need to decide if I should read Silmarillion first.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
To add to the wing debate; this from The Treason of Isengard, where Christopher is comparing two drafts of the Fellowship;
In B it is said only that the Balrog ‘stood facing him’: in C ‘the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like great wings‘. Immediately afterwards, where in FR the Balrog drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall‘, neither B nor C has the words ‘to a great height’ nor speaks of the ‘wings’.

This from Morgoth's Ring;
Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

The famous earlier quote in the Fellowship;
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
 
Edmond Dantès;47251636 said:
To add to the wing debate; this from The Treason of Isengard, where Christopher is comparing two drafts of the Fellowship;

This from Morgoth's Ring;


The famous earlier quote in the Fellowship;
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.[/B]

Zoom and enhance.

Edmond Dantès;47251636 said:
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.[/B]

Enhance.

Edmond Dantès;47251636 said:
like two vast wings

Focus on that reflection.

Edmond Dantès;47251636 said:
like wings

Got him.
 
For the record, I've always just been the camp that prefers to think of Glorfindell of Rivendell and Glorfindel of Gondolin as the same guy.
I always thought that was established since the elves reincarnate in Valinor and some chose to return to middle earth instead staying there. It was never mentioned specifically in the LotR but I assumed that was the case at least.

I really need to read these books again.
 

Loxley

Member
Just added The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún and The Fall of Arthur to the "Poems & Short Stories" section.
 
I love me some Tolkien and I probably wouldn't be here today if it weren't for him.

There was a rough patch in my teen years where my family was homeless. The only posession I had was my copy of the Hobbit and LotR. I was able to escape into those and find hope.

Speaking of Tolkien, what is NeoGAF's take on Blind Guardian's Album, Nightfall on Middle-earth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azt8p7rWFaQ
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Another quote that goes against winged Balrog's to an extent;
"But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air."

The Valaraukar predate the winged dragons. But you argue can argue still that they had wings, but they were useless for extended flight, just good for shorts bursts.
 
You know what would have been cool? If Gandalf, after beating the (winged) Balrog, used it to fly the ring to Mount Doom... and was greeted there by Sauron, who just finished making a new ring!
 

Ryan_

Member
Edmond Dantès;47238329 said:
Potential topics to discuss;

The influences on Tolkien's Legendarium (lore, myths, life experiences)
The lack of religion in the Legendarium, but the obvious influences of certain themes
The origins of Tom Bombadil (Maia, Vala, Nature Spirit, A living embodiment of the Music of the Ainur)
The Balrog debate
Dragon origins
Free will in the Legendarium and Eru's creation of Melkor


Add more fellow Tolkien fans.

I get the feeling this topic will be more of a 'listen and read' topic for me :)

Most of those topics are way over my head. I should read the Silmarillion asap.
 

Loxley

Member
Edmond Dantès;47259782 said:
I'm sure Loxley wants us all to contribute no matter our levels of expertise.

Absolutely. If anything, some of the most interesting conversations I've had about the Middle-Earth legendarium were sparked by people who knew almost nothing about it and had some very interesting questions/thoughts on something they'd either heard or formulated themselves about the world.

One of my favorite things to talk about is how Tolkien's life and Middle-Earth are so intricately intertwined. It wasn't until I learned about the man himself that I gained a completely new level of appreciation and admiration for him as well as Middle Earth, and that's not something that I can claim about many authors. Knowing about the kind of person he was makes stories like The Tale of Beren and Luthien and characters like Treebeard that much more engaging.

It's dangerous though, when someone asks me why The Lord of the Rings is considered to be such a seminal work of fiction and why it's so special compared to most fantasy literature that came before it and has come since, I can go on for hours ;)
 

rexor0717

Member
I love me some Tolkien and I probably wouldn't be here today if it weren't for him.

There was a rough patch in my teen years where my family was homeless. The only posession I had was my copy of the Hobbit and LotR. I was able to escape into those and find hope.

Speaking of Tolkien, what is NeoGAF's take on Blind Guardian's Album, Nightfall on Middle-earth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azt8p7rWFaQ

I love it, I love it, I love it. Haven't listened to it in a while, but its probably my favorite album. Thorn especially.
 

andrewasdf

Neo Member
I rarely post on gaf, but I had to give my praise to your excellent work. I'll definitely be lurking this in the future.

I hope part 4 and beyond includes Shippey. Road to Middle-Earth/Author of the Century are my favorite books about Tolkien. Humphrey Carpenter seems to get all the love instead of him :(
 

CorvoSol

Member
I really need to read the Silmarillion. Barring that, my favorite Legendarium character is most definitely Aragorn. Always loved him running around with his special sword and all. That he scored a half-elf chick only increased my appreciation as I aged.
 
One of my favorite things to talk about is how Tolkien's life and Middle-Earth are so intricately intertwined. It wasn't until I learned about the man himself that I gained a completely new level of appreciation and admiration for Tolkien and Middle Earth, and that's not something that I can claim about many authors. Knowing about the kind of person he was makes stories like The Tale of Beren and Luthien and characters like Treebeard that much more engaging.
I haven't read much about Tolkien's life, but I think I learned a bit about him by reading Leaf by Niggle.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I haven't read much about Tolkien's life, but I think I learned a bit about him by reading Leaf by Niggle.
I think the following letter (#43) to his son Michael is really quite revealing.
A man's dealings with women can be purely physical (they cannot really, of course: but I mean he can refuse to take other things into account, to the great damage of his soul (and body) and theirs); or 'friendly'; or he can be a 'lover' (engaging and blending all his affections and powers of mind and body in a complex emotion powerfully coloured and energized by 'sex'). This is a fallen world. The dislocation of sex-instinct is one of the chief symptoms of the Fall. The world has been 'going to the bad' all down the ages. The various social forms shift, and each new mode has its special dangers: but the 'hard spirit of concupiscence' has walked down every street, and sat leering in every house, since Adam fell. We will leave aside the 'immoral' results. These you desire not to be dragged into. To renunciation you have no call. 'Friendship' then? In this fallen world the 'friendship' that should be possible between all human beings, is virtually impossible between man and woman. The devil is endlessly ingenious, and sex is his favourite subject. He is as good every bit at catching you through generous romantic or tender motives, as through baser or more animal ones. This 'friendship' has often been tried: one side or the other nearly always fails. Later in life when sex cools down, it may be possible. It may happen between saints. To ordinary folk it can only rarely occur: two minds that have really a primarily mental and spiritual affinity may by accident reside in a male and a female body, and yet may desire and achieve a 'friendship' quite independent of sex. But no one can count on it. The other partner will let him (or her) down, almost certainly, by 'falling in love'. But a young man does not really (as a rule) want 'friendship', even if he says he does. There are plenty of young men (as a rule). He wants love: innocent, and yet irresponsible perhaps. Allas! Allas! that ever love was sinne! as Chaucer says. Then if he is a Christian and is aware that there is such a thing as sin, he wants to know what to do about it.

There is in our Western culture the romantic chivalric tradition still strong, though as a product of Christendom (yet by no means the same as Christian ethics) the times are inimical to it. It idealizes 'love' — and as far as it goes can be very good, since it takes in far more than physical pleasure, and enjoins if not purity, at least fidelity, and so self-denial, 'service', courtesy, honour, and courage. Its weakness is, of course, that it began as an artificial courtly game, a way of enjoying love for its own sake without reference to (and indeed contrary to) matrimony. Its centre was not God, but imaginary Deities, Love and the Lady. It still tends to make the Lady a kind of guiding star or divinity – of the old-fashioned 'his divinity' = the woman he loves – the object or reason of noble conduct. This is, of course, false and at best make-believe. The woman is another fallen human-being with a soul in peril. But combined and harmonized with religion (as long ago it was, producing much of that beautiful devotion to Our Lady that has been God's way of refining so much our gross manly natures and emotions, and also of warming and colouring our hard, bitter, religion) it can be very noble. Then it produces what I suppose is still felt, among those who retain even vestigiary Christianity, to be the highest ideal of love between man and woman. Yet I still think it has dangers. It is not wholly true, and it is not perfectly 'theocentric'. It takes, or at any rate has in the past taken, the young man's eye off women as they are, as companions in shipwreck not guiding stars. (One result is for observation of the actual to make the young man turn cynical.) To forget their desires, needs and temptations. It inculcates exaggerated notions of 'true love', as a fire from without, a permanent exaltation, unrelated to age, childbearing, and plain life, and unrelated to will and purpose. (One result of that is to make young folk look for a 'love' that will keep them always nice and warm in a cold world, without any effort of theirs; and the incurably romantic go on looking even in the squalor of the divorce courts).

Women really have not much part in all this, though they may use the language of romantic love, since it is so entwined in all our idioms. The sexual impulse makes women (naturally when unspoiled more unselfish) very sympathetic and understanding, or specially desirous of being so (or seeming so), and very ready to enter into all the interests, as far as they can, from ties to religion, of the young man they are attracted to. No intent necessarily to deceive: sheer instinct: the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. Under this impulse they can in fact often achieve very remarkable insight and understanding, even of things otherwise outside their natural range: for it is their gift to be receptive, stimulated, fertilized (in many other matters than the physical) by the male. Every teacher knows that. How quickly an intelligent woman can be taught, grasp his ideas, see his point – and how (with rare exceptions) they can go no further, when they leave his hand, or when they cease to take a personal interest in him. But this is their natural avenue to love. Before the young woman knows where she is (and while the romantic young man, when he exists, is still sighing) she may actually 'fall in love'. Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man's children, even if that desire is by no means clear to her or explicit. And then things are going to happen: and they may be very painful and harmful, if things go wrong. Particularly if the young man only wanted a temporary guiding star and divinity (until he hitches his waggon to a brighter one), and was merely enjoying the flattery of sympathy nicely seasoned with a titillation of sex – all quite innocent, of course, and worlds away from 'seduction'.

You may meet in life (as in literature) women who are flighty, or even plain wanton — I don't refer to mere flirtatiousness, the sparring practice for the real combat, but to women who are too silly to take even love seriously, or are actually so depraved as to enjoy 'conquests', or even enjoy the giving of pain – but these are abnormalities, even though false teaching, bad upbringing, and corrupt fashions may encourage them. Much though modern conditions have changed feminine circumstances, and the detail of what is considered propriety, they have not changed natural instinct. A man has a life-work, a career, (and male friends), all of which could (and do where he has any guts) survive the shipwreck of 'love'. A young woman, even one 'economically independent', as they say now (it usually really means economic subservience to male commercial employers instead of to a father or a family), begins to think of the 'bottom drawer' and dream of a home, almost at once. If she really falls in love, the shipwreck may really end on the rocks. Anyway women are in general much less romantic and more practical. Don't be misled by the fact that they are more 'sentimental' in words – freer with 'darling', and all that. They do not want a guiding star. They may idealize a plain young man into a hero; but they don't really need any such glamour either to fall in love or to remain in it. If they have any delusion it is that they can 'reform' men. They will take a rotter open-eyed, and even when the delusion of reforming him fails, go on loving him. They are, of course, much more realistic about the sexual relation. Unless perverted by bad contemporary fashions they do not as a rule talk 'bawdy'; not because they are purer than men (they are not) but because they don't find it funny. I have known those who pretended to, but it is a pretence. It may be intriguing, interesting, absorbing (even a great deal too absorbing) to them: but it is just plumb natural, a serious, obvious interest; where is the joke?

They have, of course, still to be more careful in sexual relations, for all the contraceptives. Mistakes are damaging physically and socially (and matrimonially). But they are instinctively, when uncorrupt, monogamous. Men are not. .... No good pretending. Men just ain't, not by their animal nature. Monogamy (although it has long been fundamental to our inherited ideas) is for us men a piece of 'revealed' ethic, according to faith and not to the flesh. Each of us could healthily beget, in our 30 odd years of full manhood, a few hundred children, and enjoy the process. Brigham Young (I believe) was a healthy and happy man. It is a fallen world, and there is no consonance between our bodies, minds, and souls.

However, the essence of a fallen world is that the best cannot be attained by free enjoyment, or by what is called 'self-realization' (usually a nice name for self-indulgence, wholly inimical to the realization of other selves); but by denial, by suffering. Faithfulness in Christian marriage entails that: great mortification. For a Christian man there is no escape. Marriage may help to sanctify & direct to its proper object his sexual desires; its grace may help him in the struggle; but the struggle remains. It will not satisfy him – as hunger may be kept off by regular meals. It will offer as many difficulties to the purity proper to that state, as it provides easements. No man, however truly he loved his betrothed and bride as a young man, has lived faithful to her as a wife in mind and body without deliberate conscious exercise of the will, without self-denial. Too few are told that — even those brought up 'in the Church'. Those outside seem seldom to have heard it. When the glamour wears off, or merely works a bit thin, they think they have made a mistake, and that the real soul-mate is still to find. The real soul-mate too often proves to be the next sexually attractive person that comes along. Someone whom they might indeed very profitably have married, if only —. Hence divorce, to provide the 'if only'. And of course they are as a rule quite right: they did make a mistake. Only a very wise man at the end of his life could make a sound judgement concerning whom, amongst the total possible chances, he ought most profitably to have married! Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes: in the sense that almost certainly (in a more perfect world, or even with a little more care in this very imperfect one) both partners might have found more suitable mates. But the 'real soul-mate' is the one you are actually married to. You really do very little choosing: life and circumstance do most of it (though if there is a God these must be His instruments, or His appearances). It is notorious that in fact happy marriages are more common where the 'choosing' by the young persons is even more limited, by parental or family authority, as long as there is a social ethic of plain unromantic responsibility and conjugal fidelity. But even in countries where the romantic tradition has so far affected social arrangements as to make people believe that the choosing of a mate is solely the concern of the young, only the rarest good fortune brings together the man and woman who are really as it were 'destined' for one another, and capable of a very great and splendid love. The idea still dazzles us, catches us by the throat: poems and stories in multitudes have been written on the theme, more, probably, than the total of such loves in real life (yet the greatest of these tales do not tell of the happy marriage of such great lovers, but of their tragic separation; as if even in this sphere the truly great and splendid in this fallen world is more nearly achieved by 'failure' and suffering). In such great inevitable love, often love at first sight, we catch a vision, I suppose, of marriage as it should have been in an unfallen world. In this fallen world we have as our only guides, prudence, wisdom (rare in youth, too late in age), a clean, heart, and fidelity of will.....

My own history is so exceptional, so wrong and imprudent in nearly every point that it makes it difficult to counsel prudence. Yet hard cases make bad law; and exceptional cases are not always good guides for others. For what it is worth here is some autobiography – mainly on this occasion directed towards the points of age, and finance.

I fell in love with your mother at the approximate age of 18. Quite genuinely, as has been shown – though of course defects of character and temperament have caused me often to fall below the ideal with which I started. Your mother was older than I, and not a Catholic. Altogether unfortunate, as viewed by a guardian. And it was in a sense very unfortunate; and in a way very bad for me. These things are absorbing and nervously exhausting. I was a clever boy in the throes of work for (a very necessary) Oxford scholarship. The combined tensions nearly produced a bad breakdown. I muffed my exams and though (as years afterwards my H[ead] M[aster] told me) I ought to have got a good scholarship, I only landed by the skin of my teeth an exhibition of £60 at Exeter: just enough with a school leaving scholarship] of the same amount to come up on (assisted by my dear old guardian). Of course there was a credit side, not so easily seen by the guardian. I was clever, but not industrious or single-minded; a large pan of my failure was due simply to not working (at least not at classics) not because I was in love, but because I was studying something else: Gothic and what not. Having the romantic upbringing I made a boy-and-girl affair serious, and made it the source of effort. Naturally rather a physical coward, I passed from a despised rabbit on a house second-team to school colours in two seasons. All that sort of thing. However, trouble arose: and I had to choose between disobeying and grieving (or deceiving) a guardian who had been a father to me, more than most real fathers, but without any obligation, and 'dropping' the love-affair until I was 21. I don't regret my decision, though it was very hard on my lover. But that was not my fault. She was perfectly free and under no vow to me, and I should have had no just complaint (except according to the unreal romantic code) if she had got married to someone else. For very nearly three years I did not see or write to my lover. It was extremely hard, painful and bitter, especially at first. The effects were not wholly good: I fell back into folly and slackness and misspent a good deal of my first year at College. But I don't think anything else would have justified marriage on the basis of a boy's affair; and probably nothing else would have hardened the will enough to give such an affair (however genuine a case of true love) permanence. On the night of my 21st birthday I wrote again to your mother – Jan. 3, 1913. On Jan. 8th I went back to her, and became engaged, and informed an astonished family. I picked up my socks and did a spot of work (too late to save Hon. Mods. from disaster) – and then war broke out the next year, while I still had a year to go at college. In those days chaps joined up, or were scorned publicly. It was a nasty cleft to be in, especially for a young man with too much imagination and little physical courage. No degree: no money: fiancée. I endured the obloquy, and hints becoming outspoken from relatives, stayed up, and produced a First in Finals in 1915. Bolted into the army: July 1915. I found the situation intolerable and married on March 22, 1916. May found me crossing the Channel (I still have the verse I wrote on the occasion!) for the carnage of the Somme.

Think of your mother! Yet I do not now for a moment feel that she was doing more than she should have been asked to do – not that that detracts from the credit of it. I was a young fellow, with a moderate degree, and apt to write verse, a few dwindling pounds p. a. (£20 – 40), and no prospects, a Second Lieut. on 7/6 a day in the infantry where the chances of survival were against you heavily (as a subaltern). She married me in 1916 and John was born in 1917 (conceived and carried during the starvation-year of 1917 and the great U-Boat campaign) round about the battle of Cambrai, when the end of the war seemed as far-off as it does now. I sold out, and spent to pay the nursing-home, the last of my few South African shares, 'my patrimony'.

Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament. .... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth, and more than that: Death: by the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste (or foretaste) of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires.
 
I confess I have never read any Tolkien letters. I'd love to though. If anything is more interesting than the Legendarium, it's Tolkien himself and his thought process/viewpoints.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I confess I have never read any Tolkien letters. I'd love to though. If anything is more interesting than the Legendarium, it's Tolkien himself and his thought process/viewpoints.
Some of the most fascinating insights into the legendarium are in his letters. Certainly worth reading to gain a deeper insight into the mythos.
 
To steer discussion, I know Ungoliant being 'spun-off' from the discord in the Music is one interpretation. What are the other theories, that have substantial grounding, behind Ungoliant's origins?

Or even Tom Bombadil for that matter. I know Corey talked about him possibly being an unnamed spirit that came down a long time ago on one of his podcasts.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
BALROG!!

I'm gonna go team no-wings here, with the secondary reference to wings just reinforcing the initial metaphorical one. My interpretation of the Balrog just based on the text of the Fellowship is pretty different from how most people illustrate it anyway though. It's usually portrayed pretty monstrous, really huge, ugly face, those wings and all. But when I read it, it seemed a lot smaller to me, being able to stoop through doors, and much more humanoid. I never really ascribed it with any defined characteristics, and more just a menacing humanoid shape of shadow and flame within a veil of palpable darkness. The aura and intangibility of it, along with how it laid ruin to Balin's tomb in a way Gandalf couldn't even really follow, being the driving forces behind its menace, not standard "big monstery guy" stuff.

Maybe it's described more clearly when Gandalf recounts his tale in The Two Towers, but I haven't gotten there yet in this current reading.
 

Norfair

Member
One thing I've always wondered is how the Silmarilian and Lord of the Rings maps match up. I've never been able to see any landmarks that allow you to line them up. I know the world was changed when Númenor was destroyed and that might account for some if it.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
One thing I've always wondered is how the Silmarilian and Lord of the Rings maps match up. I've never been able to see any landmarks that allow you to line them up. I know the world was changed when Númenor was destroyed and that might account for some if it.

didn't the whole west part of the world like sink into the ocean or some shit?
 
I have just recently begun tag teaming Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion and I intend to go on through everything. The recent conversations in The Hobbit threads being the inspiration, of course. It has also spurred on my own writings, although I will surely always pale in comparison.
 

Altazor

Member
One thing I've always wondered is how the Silmarilian and Lord of the Rings maps match up. I've never been able to see any landmarks that allow you to line them up. I know the world was changed when Númenor was destroyed and that might account for some if it.

the end of the First Age: Beleriand (lands west of the Blue Mountains) sank.

Then Númenor also sank and the world was made round (it was flat before; now, if you want to/are allowed to go to Valinor, you take the straight road in a round world, so you pretty much go outside our plane of existence).

Oh, and if you want to match maps: Beleriand was, as I said before, west of the Blue Mountains. Yes, THOSE Blue Mountains on the western part of the M-E map. I don't know how big Beleriand was becuase I've seen different maps and they all picture it in different sizes, but it was a significant part of land that went under the sea.
 

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Guys, you have to check the latest Oglaf comic!

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(Warning: this comic is safe for work, must most of the others are not)

Good lord, that web comic is utterly filthy.

Such blatant sex doesn't mix well with comedy, IMO. It's hard to laugh at jokes when you feel like you want to jerk off. Or maybe it's just not funny.

Still though, I imagine the dude that draws it probably makes a fortune doing special "commissioned" artwork for the people that follow.
 
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